Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

berri

Cross country - that's what you leased the new one for: AC, Cruise, good Stereo. Comfort...You want to go first class baby!

Michaell

berri said:

Cross country - that's what you leased the new one for: AC, Cruise, good Stereo. Comfort...You want to go first class baby!

And probably have to fill the tank only 1/3 as often

omarman

Interesting project to begin with or to finish off a 1964 project in progress.
Top oiler '64 R code 427. Can't be many of these left but how to price it?

A side oiler 427 from just one year later would be different story though.

stickguy

Lot of money for an engine that needs to be totally redone. And no car. THats real close to old farmer. Maybe he wants to grab it to drop into the mustang?

fintail

I think the old dear is now happy simply making a cross-county trip now and then

I wonder what kind of Galaxie that 427 came from, would have been quite a beast.

berri said:

Cross country - that's what you leased the new one for: AC, Cruise, good Stereo. Comfort...You want to go first class baby!

qbrozen

omarman said:

Interesting project to begin with or to finish off a 1964 project in progress. Top oiler '64 R code 427. Can't be many of these left but how to price it? A side oiler 427 from just one year later would be different story though.

I don't really understand expensive old engines. IMHO, if it isn't going to result in a numbers matching car anyway, just get a crate motor that would be more efficient, more reliable, and more powerful.

texases

True, but there's some value in "period correct" equipment. 

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

Lot of money for an engine that needs to be totally redone. And no car. THats real close to old farmer. Maybe he wants to grab it to drop into the mustang?

The Coyote in my Mustang is just fine thanks. Now if you can rustle up a nice Voodoo 5.2L give me a call.

Just curious, how much hp did that 427 put out and what's the diff between a top oiler and a side oiler?

qbrozen

texases said:

True, but there's some value in "period correct" equipment. 

Maybe. I'd be curious to know by how much, though. Enough to justify 3x the cost of a good crate engine? Depending on the car, I'd say unlikely. I don't think the period correct 440 in my Coronet is doing much for the value vs let's say a 500 stroker.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd say that engine is way overpriced. First of all, it's a center oiler, not a side oiler; secondly, it may be totally junk inside and would have to be sleeved. At that price I'd expect it to be rebuilt and ready to roll.

I'd estimate around $3,000 for it.

gsemike

1977 Chevy Nova Concours

https://newhaven.craigslist.org/cto/d/1977-chevy-nova-concours/6278527917.html

I forgot these existed. Interesting attempt to take the car more upscale after these were so notoriously low end. If it had an 8, it could be an OK driver

xwesx

gsemike said:

1977 Chevy Nova Concours

https://newhaven.craigslist.org/cto/d/1977-chevy-nova-concours/6278527917.html

I forgot these existed. Interesting attempt to take the car more upscale after these were so notoriously low end. If it had an 8, it could be an OK driver

Wow! A straight V6! It might be one-of-a-kind!

Michaell

gsemike said:

1977 Chevy Nova Concours

https://newhaven.craigslist.org/cto/d/1977-chevy-nova-concours/6278527917.html

I forgot these existed. Interesting attempt to take the car more upscale after these were so notoriously low end. If it had an 8, it could be an OK driver

I had a junior high school teacher who bought one of these in '77 or '78 - I remember it being quite elegant, compared to the lower trim levels.

omarman

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:

Lot of money for an engine that needs to be totally redone. And no car. THats real close to old farmer. Maybe he wants to grab it to drop into the mustang?

The Coyote in my Mustang is just fine thanks. Now if you can rustle up a nice Voodoo 5.2L give me a call.

Just curious, how much hp did that 427 put out and what's the diff between a top oiler and a side oiler?

I think the R code 427 was rated at 425hp in 1964. All the early FE blocks were top oilers which directed oil flow to the cam and valve train first and then the crank second. In 1965 the 427 blocks were revised and sent oil to the crank first and the cam second which made the engine stronger. Those side oiler 427 engines are the ones which made racing history. From the wiki Ford FE engine page, "In 1966, the 427 cubic inch Ford GT40 Mk II dominated the 24 Hours of Le Mans race, with a one-two-three result."

Mr_Shiftright

Most of the 427 gearheads seem to think that a top oiler is just fine if you aren't all-out racing. But it's the side oilers that are worth the big bucks $$$. The side oiler block is re-inforced at the main bearing area as well, in addition to the improved lower end lubrication.

Apparently Ford put some side oilers into marine applications.

omarman

As far as I know Ford offered many marine and industrial 427 engines with the revised block but still machined to use top oiler lubrication. Still I wouldn't be surprised if some side oilers wound up in some fast boats. And I agree that the 427 top oiler is the real deal for just about anything short of killer competition racing.

Mr_Shiftright

I've seen photos of marine 427 side-oilers, and apparently they pop up from time to time. I would wonder though about compression ratios, etc.

oldfarmer50

He knows.

https://albany.craigslist.org/cto/d/2007-caddy-sts-supercharged/6300133459.html

stickguy

Well, he knows it will be expensive and he wants no part of it at least.

qbrozen

"Runs great....running rough"
way to be decisive

Mr_Shiftright

It would be very interesting to sit down and have lunch with his mechanic--the one who has been pulling his own hair out the last few weeks.

explorerx4

'J' is the base model, right?
Other than that, seems nice.
https://hartford.craigslist.org/ctd/d/1969-pontiac-grand-prix-type/6304878028.html

Mr_Shiftright

I wonder why it has the strange VIN number? Possibly assigned from the state?

berri

I liked the looks of those late 60's early 70's GP when I was young. No way was I affording one back then though.

ab348

That GP looks a lot nicer than the cheesy ad originally led me to anticipate.

That's a legit '69 model year Pontiac VIN, just ignore the leading zeroes.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, okay. I saw 17 digits and thought the state had intervened.

So that translates as Pontiac, Grand Prix, hard top coupe, 1969, built in Pontiac MI. Engine could be a 400 or 428, we don't know. Could have 390HP or 265 HP or something in between.

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

'J' is the base model, right?
Other than that, seems nice.
https://hartford.craigslist.org/ctd/d/1969-pontiac-grand-prix-type/6304878028.html

I loved the front end on those. Would have loved to have one back in the day. I bet in inflation adjusted dollars it's cheaper now than when new.

omarman

More pictures of that Grand Prix here including engine and underneath the car - but not up on a lift.

berri

Omar, you're making me feel young again (well, for a few minutes at least). On an entirely different subject; when I was just a kid in the Chicago suburbs way back when, I remember for awhile my parents had an Omar brand bread man deliver bread and baked goods. Kind of an unusual name, but quite a catchy one.

oldfarmer50

Just needs a $35 part.



https://albany.craigslist.org/cto/d/2008-chevy-aveo5-5-speed/6306949573.html

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, and a windshield and hood and battery and other stuff....what a pile of junk. $300 would be plenty, for parts.

fintail

One of those times when you can look at an $800 car and say "you can do better". Aveos seem to be one the newer cars found in junkyards today, I don't know if via careless ownership or iffy durability.

texases

If ads were honest:

"great car [in another universe] but it needs a 35$ head gasket set [and $1,000 of engine work]. Hood flew up while driving and cracked wind shield [so add at least another $1,000 for that]. I slid that elbow and filter on because the stock one is ripped after the maf sensor [who knows what I screwed up there, add another $1,000 or so], Battery is dead, good tires no check engine light [because of dead battery, so lets just add another $500 of work needed for that]. "

andres3

fintail said:

One of those times when you can look at an $800 car and say "you can do better". Aveos seem to be one the newer cars found in junkyards today, I don't know if via careless ownership or iffy durability.

I think the hood flying up answers the durability question, unless he forgot to latch it closed correctly.

qbrozen

andres3 said:

One of those times when you can look at an $800 car and say "you can do better". Aveos seem to be one the newer cars found in junkyards today, I don't know if via careless ownership or iffy durability.

I think the hood flying up answers the durability question, unless he forgot to latch it closed correctly.

He left it open intentionally to aid that custom CAI and take on Civics. I'm baffled by the lack of stickers, though. Everybody knows stickers hold all the power.

Mr_Shiftright

Stickers are like nitrous shots--you can buy them in different HP ratings. Then you add up your stickers for a total HP gain.

ab348

Last night I went down a YouTube wormhole after I stumbled upon the Hagerty channel. This particular one was a series of videos called "The Barn Find Hunter" featuring Tom Cotter, author of "The Cobra in the Barn" and subsequent similar books, with him traveling the US and visiting various car hoards.

I never cared for his books but that was more due to the writing style than anything - a lot of the chapters read like responses to emails from people and are not very well written. This was different but left me with a similar feeling. Much of it was almost depressing - visiting very old, decrepit folks, lots of them in wheelchairs or otherwise in advanced decline, with their dozens (or hundreds in some cases) of projects untouched for decades. Other people were in better physical condition but were like many I've seen over the years locally, with a stash of stuff rotting away in a field who say "I'm gonna fix it up someday" when you know they have no chance of ever doing that, or asking ridiculous prices for things that are parts cars at best. One of the worst was a visit to an old fellow who had a bunch of cars in buildings but even more - most of them convertibles - sitting outside. A convertible does not do well without a top out in the weather, and none of these were protected. Just sad.

Mr_Shiftright

I've tried to get into the psychology of people who do that. Here are some speculations I came up with, from lots of personal experience with these "types".

1. Dreamers who bit off way more than they can chew but won't admit defeat.

2. Those who enjoy the power they feel when someone else has what they want, and they (the owner) won't give it to them--ever.

3. Hoarders--their "car collection" really makes no sense if you look at it objectively. It's not just cars--it's everything.

4. The genuinely "old and tired". They restored a few cars but now have run out of gas and money. This type often comes around and sells before it's too late.

5. Saving cars for grandkids when in reality the kids could care less but won't tell grandpa.

6. The Greedy---they vastly overestimate what they own and refuse to sell at a fair price--typical remark from a Greedy "Why, I'd rather burn it than sell it at that price!"

ab348

When I've seen these types of folks around here I am often struck by how their living conditions are often equally ramshackle, and how if they hadn't spent their money on all these old cars over they years they could be living in a much more comfortable and pleasant environment. On Cotter's videos, you see people with sizable plots of land and often numerous outbuildings, so they have assets if not liquidity. I always wonder where the money to do this came from in the first place. Maybe they inherited oil wells or cotton farms but a lot seem to be barely literate and it makes you wonder. The other odd thing in some of his segments are people with cars that were nicely finished many years ago and are still quite good but are ignored now and never driven, while they have had their "next project" outside sitting under a a tarp for the last 15 years, also untouched.

fintail

I will guess 2, 5, and 6 are the dominant cases. I've ran into the power-trippers (probably linked directly to the greedy ones) and the "saving it for the kids" types.

oldfarmer50

I think I'm in the saving it for the kids camp. I often try to justify buying cars I see on line with the rationale of getting it for various young relatives. I suppose the reality is that for the most part young people wouldn't want my grandpa choices assuming they want any car at all.

Mr_Shiftright

I sometimes deal with inheritance situations, and by and large, families feel burdened by grandpa's cars, and, sadly, often squabble about what they are worth and how to sell them. So I give them accurate numbers (with evidence) which is a great first step in calming everyone down. It also scatters the predators like quail. No "car hunter" is going to "steal" a ca from my clients! I try to get everyone to a price that is "fair for the seller, fair for the buyer".

But man, some people are stubborn as mules.

I mean, why hire an appraiser and then argue about how wrong they are?

oldfarmer50

Mr_Shiftright said:

I sometimes deal with inheritance situations, and by and large, families feel burdened by grandpa's cars, and, sadly, often squabble about what they are worth and how to sell them. So I give them accurate numbers (with evidence) which is a great first step in calming everyone down. It also scatters the predators like quail. No "car hunter" is going to "steal" a ca from my clients! I try to get everyone to a price that is "fair for the seller, fair for the buyer".

But man, some people are stubborn as mules.

I mean, why hire an appraiser and then argue about how wrong they are?

How would the title situation affect your valuation on this one?

https://albany.craigslist.org/cto/d/buick/6310862943.html

I've heard VT is a great place to title wash flood cars. I know that you'd never be able to register it in NY.

fintail

I think some people know it all already, so there is no teaching them. Greedy heirs are probably a huge part of that demographic. I suspect the arguers are especially prevalent with neglected cars, neglected exotic cars, and older ordinary cars that were worth more 30 years ago than now.

I think in most areas kids want a car, unless they are lucky enough to live with some workable transit - one of those evil social goods most Murkans just can't have. But grandpa's choice might not enthuse most of them.

gsemike

Classic shopping on Long Island

Haven't shared a list in a while

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1969-corvettespeed-top-mint/6282880340.html 69 small block 4 speed Vette. Paint looks terrific

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/mercedes-slc-1981/6310931278.html 81 Benz. Outside looks better than inside, but not asking a lot of money

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1987-jeep-wagoneer-4x4/6304750846.html Is it too soon to say winter is coming?

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1975-oldsmobile-cutlass/6305999824.html Address the wheels and this could be a sharp driver.

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1974-dodge-power-wagon-open/6308276212.html Power wagon. 6 cyl 3 speed. What is this like to drive?

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1978-lincoln-continental-mark/6279300899.html Land yacht

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1970-challenger-t-e-440-one/6310572552.html No price. Assume he wants a fortune

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/dodge-1977-b200-tradsman-109/6310325220.html Just paint a wizard on the side and you're all set

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1969-lincolnhot-rodrat-rodlow/6309402293.html This is very cool

Mr_Shiftright

oldfarmer50 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I sometimes deal with inheritance situations, and by and large, families feel burdened by grandpa's cars, and, sadly, often squabble about what they are worth and how to sell them. So I give them accurate numbers (with evidence) which is a great first step in calming everyone down. It also scatters the predators like quail. No "car hunter" is going to "steal" a ca from my clients! I try to get everyone to a price that is "fair for the seller, fair for the buyer".

But man, some people are stubborn as mules.

I mean, why hire an appraiser and then argue about how wrong they are?

How would the title situation affect your valuation on this one?

https://albany.craigslist.org/cto/d/buick/6310862943.html

I've heard VT is a great place to title wash flood cars. I know that you'd never be able to register it in NY.

I don't deal much in modern cars, so if one comes up in an estate that has mostly collector cars, I just tell people to use Edmunds TMV and leave it at that, or I'll just do that for them and instead of an appraisal give them a one-page memo on value. There's really no skill or science necessary to evaluate cars that like.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

I think some people know it all already, so there is no teaching them. Greedy heirs are probably a huge part of that demographic. I suspect the arguers are especially prevalent with neglected cars, neglected exotic cars, and older ordinary cars that were worth more 30 years ago than now.

I think in most areas kids want a car, unless they are lucky enough to live with some workable transit - one of those evil social goods most Murkans just can't have. But grandpa's choice might not enthuse most of them.

Let's face it---after about 15 minutes, most old cars aren't that much fun for a kid to drive--especially with drum brakes and no power steering, and that oil smell coming through the firewall. By the 70s and 80s, cars were getting pretty competent and most would do OK as daily drivers to school---things like that. Especially for domestic cars. On old foreign stuff, the repair bills might kill a kid's budget right quick.

fintail

MB is the final run of the SLCs. Early 380 models can have timing chain issues, I would want to have it looked at. Interior would probably come back to life with some leather food.

Corvette looks great (other than the steering wheel), but seems dear for a 350 coupe.

The Jeep may not have many winters left, looks like nature is running its course.

Power Wagon is cool, but I don't know if there is such thing as "rust for the year", rust is there or it is not.

Lincoln is pretty even with the bit-too-wide whitewalls.

gsemike said:

Classic shopping on Long Island

Haven't shared a list in a while

qbrozen

gsemike said:

Classic shopping on Long Island

Haven't shared a list in a while

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1969-corvettespeed-top-mint/6282880340.html 69 small block 4 speed Vette. Paint looks terrific

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/mercedes-slc-1981/6310931278.html 81 Benz. Outside looks better than inside, but not asking a lot of money

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1987-jeep-wagoneer-4x4/6304750846.html Is it too soon to say winter is coming?

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1975-oldsmobile-cutlass/6305999824.html Address the wheels and this could be a sharp driver.

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1974-dodge-power-wagon-open/6308276212.html Power wagon. 6 cyl 3 speed. What is this like to drive?

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1978-lincoln-continental-mark/6279300899.html Land yacht

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1970-challenger-t-e-440-one/6310572552.html No price. Assume he wants a fortune

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/dodge-1977-b200-tradsman-109/6310325220.html Just paint a wizard on the side and you're all set

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1969-lincolnhot-rodrat-rodlow/6309402293.html This is very cool

I dig the Lincoln, but I don't understand the title. What makes this any of those descriptors? Appears to be largely stock other than the shaved door handles.

fintail

I suspect most kids of the past 30 years wouldn't want an old relic with a manual, no power assists, and likely a pile of quirks. I remember when I was a teen in the 90s, and one of my dad's cars was something I have mentioned before, a 68 Fairlane with a 3 on the tree, manual steering, manual brakes. After about 30 seconds, I knew it wasn't for me (but he loved it). However, we also had a 66 Galaxie with power assists and a 390 with a loud exhaust, I was more than happy to drive that one, even with its quirks (most cold blooded car I have experienced, I think it had both thermostat and carb issues that my dad either couldn't fix or didn't want to be bothered with, as he didn't drive it much). Going from the Galaxie to the fuel injected fintail was like getting into a modern car - even though the fintail was older.

Nowadays, there aren't many ancient cars that kids would have access to, or want. An 80s car would be considered vintage, and a 70s car seriously old. I think many old domestics would be fine and maybe even appreciated by kids for their style and ease of repair. Mainstream Japanese stuff would fare well too, and a sorted MB W123 or W126 diesel would probably be fine.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Let's face it---after about 15 minutes, most old cars aren't that much fun for a kid to drive--especially with drum brakes and no power steering, and that oil smell coming through the firewall. By the 70s and 80s, cars were getting pretty competent and most would do OK as daily drivers to school---things like that. Especially for domestic cars. On old foreign stuff, the repair bills might kill a kid's budget right quick.