VW TDI Settlement - buying a TDI now

corvette

andres3, the chances of it being a total loss between now and the end of the buyback period are low. Even if it were, I think you'd still get the restitution payment plus whatever insurance paid. I wouldn't let that be the deciding factor in whether to keep it a little longer. 

andres3

corvette said:

andres3, the chances of it being a total loss between now and the end of the buyback period are low. Even if it were, I think you'd still get the restitution payment plus whatever insurance paid. I wouldn't let that be the deciding factor in whether to keep it a little longer. 

Yes, true, and good advice. But knowing me, I hate insurance companies enough that I'd probably let a judge decide whether they should pay buyback or actual market value (which should be the exact same in my opinion at this point if books updated their numbers based on real-world factors). So if the stuff does hit the fan, I can see this going to small claims court, and I don't want to deal with that hassle. I'd probably fight the insurance company on principle alone.

I can avoid all that risk by selling sooner, and I think the wife will get impatient too. Then there's the "take money when it is available now rather than later" mentality at play. No one is promised tomorrow and so on and so forth.

andres3

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:

qbrozen said:

I gotta say, it is shocking to me how many people feel they are getting "screwed" by this deal. It seems they expect to get their full original MSRP plus all taxes and interest for their used cars. Ridiculous.

that is an interesting phenomenon. Of course, you can always keep the car and no harm done as resale is only relevant if you sell.

I at least concisely only say that NADA has screwed me on the $22,500 value put upon a 3 - 4 month old '15 VW Sportwagen SE TDI that stickers for over $30K.

Everything else is fine and dandy, and that $22,500 value is perfectly fine if we return the car 2 years from now. However, if we decide we don't want to risk an insurance loss, we'll probably return it either late this year or very early in '17. The extra almost $7,500 VW is throwing in helps alleviate and lubricate the screwing by NADA.

BUT, now VW is paying $22,500 for a 2-year-old vehicle by using the NADA value from Sep 2015. VW is completely disregarding an additional 14 months of depreciation, more if you continue to keep the car, yet people still want to complain.

Complaints are legitimate on the following grounds

1) The vehicle won't be 2 years old until June of 2017 for this particular owner, and many others might have bought even closer to when the scandal first broke out.
2) Who said trade-in value was fair? I'd argue retail value or at least private party value would be more fair.
3) You can only keep the car even longer if you take on the additional insurance risk. They should have written into the settlement that a negligent driver can't force a TDI owner to take a loss. They could have done this by setting aside money to cover the "GAP" from insurance value to buyback value for the few instances where this might occur.
4) I see the restitution as covering the "trade-in to retail" gap, the hassle of additional paperwork and having to find a suitable replacement vehicle (might be fun to some here, but it is time-consuming work Especially to those that research the heck out of possible new car options. It also covers those that care about the fact they polluted a bit more than they thought they were. For those keeping the car it is actually supposed to be restitution for diminished resale value stemming from the "fix" reducing performance, FE, durability, longevity, reliability, maintenance intervals, and resale value.

qbrozen

When you purchased your vehicle doesn't make it any younger. A 2015 is 2 years old.

But, again, they are taking the value, trade or otherwise, from Sept 2015. Would you rather them give current retail value plus taxes and fees OR sept 2015 trade value? I know which one I'd take.

I have another question: What was your actual purchase price in June 2017?

andres3

henryn said:

I don’t know that NADA screwed you so much as you screwed yourself. You bought a new car that depreciates badly. If you had wanted low depreciation, you should have bought a Honda, not a VW.

In a certain sense, VW screwed everyone by lying to us. But with the extra $7,500, you are probably getting back more money than you paid when brand new, so how can you possibly complain about that????

I think an argument could be made that VW TDI's had a much better resale value than NADA is reflecting prior to the scandal. I'm not so sure we bought a car that depreciated badly. I think TDI's were an exception to most VW's regarding depreciation.

We are getting an amount less than we paid thanks to CA high taxes, fees, registration costs, licensing and what not, but I also think we negotiated a pretty great deal to be there. Those that paid "TMV" will have suffered much greater losses. When a vehicle is totaled you get back taxes and fees, so I do not think I'm out of line by including all the TTL costs in my evaluation.

I just think the NADA values are very fishy for '15 VW TDI's. That's all; other years seem a bit fairer. I think the problem stems from them issuing one full years worth of depreciation for cars that may have been 1/5th, or 1/4, or 1/3 of a year old. It smells very fishy to me. Although a lot of depreciation does happen when you drive off the lot, it is not instantaneous, a 1 month old car should be worth more than a 4 month, which in turn would be worth more than an 8 month, and so on.

andres3

henryn said:

I don’t know that NADA screwed you so much as you screwed yourself. You bought a new car that depreciates badly. If you had wanted low depreciation, you should have bought a Honda, not a VW.

In a certain sense, VW screwed everyone by lying to us. But with the extra $7,500, you are probably getting back more money than you paid when brand new, so how can you possibly complain about that????

If the NADA values were ticked upward enough so that the total buyback was exactly what we paid out the door including all taxes and fees, I wouldn't be complaining. Therefore, the delta of my complaint isn't that big; less than $1K. People with 1 year old TDI's at the time the scandal started are doing OK. People with TDI's under 5 months old at the time the scandal started are subsidizing those with older TDI's.

stickguy

MY is MY. If you buy a 2016 today, or did 12 months ago, next week when the 2017s arrive both are 1 year old. Your only difference will come from miles on them.

henryn

You have had the use of the car for more than one full year, and your total buyback is less than $1,000 short of your initial purchase price, including taxes and fees, and you're complaining? Really?

Wow. Just, wow.

andres3

henryn said:

You have had the use of the car for more than one full year, and your total buyback is less than $1,000 short of your initial purchase price, including taxes and fees, and you're complaining? Really?

Wow. Just, wow.

I told you guys, I'm not complaining about the total. I'm specifically picking on NADA's value of $22,500. Nothing else is really relevant. VW's generosity in the restitution doesn't change my nitpick with the NADA value that is supposedly taken from September 2015. I suppose if they never said the value was from September of 2015, I'd have never complained. Due to that statement, I expected more; that's all.

By the way, '16 VW Sportwagen TDI's were not out yet in September of '15 so '15's were still current year models.

qbrozen

I used to be able to look at historical values when I had a Galves subscription. That would have been helpful here.

qbrozen

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

andres3

qbrozen said:

I used to be able to look at historical values when I had a Galves subscription. That would have been helpful here.

I've ran into this problem before, in my diminished value claim on the '14 S4. There was no available data online for a 4 month old '14 S4 back in March of 2014 when the accident occurred.

I got around this using a NADA value for a '14 S4 with the same amount of low miles I had at the time of the accident, only getting the data a year after the accident happened (which of course, ignored that I had put many more miles on it since the accident).

If time and miles cause depreciation then this wasn't entirely accurate, but it gave a ball park figure close to that of my appraiser's assessed DV.

andres3

qbrozen said:

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

qbrozen said:

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

'15 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG

The SE should already define most of the standard options and equipment (such as Fender audio, leather steering wheel, 17" 225/45/R17 wheels/tires, & panoramic glass roof), but it also has:

Tungsten Gray Exterior Paint
Black Leatherette Interior
DSG 6-speed transmission
Options included extra floor mats, cargo blocks, cargo cover, first aid kit.

Figure around 1,000 miles per month, so let's say it was 3 months old with 3,000 miles for arguments sake at the start of the scandal.

corvette

rroyce10 used to have a formula for vehicle age that didn't make sense to anyone but him. It went something like: 2017s are out and we're now anticipating 2018 vehicles, so a 2017 is 1 year old. So a 2015 is 3 years old. 

andres3

Of course, all this is just for giggles, as if I really had a bone to pick with the Settlement; I'd of sent in a letter already (too late now I think) to the legal representatives and judge/court handling the case. Basically an "Objection" letter to the class-action settlement, which doesn't opt you out but voices your opinion.

I just got too busy with life and work to take the time to write a letter backed up with some data so it could hold some weight with the judge and lawyers on both sides.

qbrozen

andres3 said:

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

'15 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG The SE should already define most of the standard options and equipment (such as Fender audio, leather steering wheel, 17" 225/45/R17 wheels/tires, & panoramic glass roof), but it also has: Tungsten Gray Exterior Paint Black Leatherette Interior DSG 6-speed transmission Options included extra floor mats, cargo blocks, cargo cover, first aid kit. Figure around 1,000 miles per month, so let's say it was 3 months old with 3,000 miles for arguments sake at the start of the scandal.

D'OH!! Figures you have the one vehicle with "no data available."

qbrozen

corvette said:

rroyce10 used to have a formula for vehicle age that didn't make sense to anyone but him. It went something like: 2017s are out and we're now anticipating 2018 vehicles, so a 2017 is 1 year old. So a 2015 is 3 years old. 

I argued with him countless times on that point. 

andres3

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:

qbrozen said:

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

qbrozen said:

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

'15 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG

The SE should already define most of the standard options and equipment (such as Fender audio, leather steering wheel, 17" 225/45/R17 wheels/tires, & panoramic glass roof), but it also has:

Tungsten Gray Exterior Paint
Black Leatherette Interior
DSG 6-speed transmission
Options included extra floor mats, cargo blocks, cargo cover, first aid kit.

Figure around 1,000 miles per month, so let's say it was 3 months old with 3,000 miles for arguments sake at the start of the scandal.

D'OH!! Figures you have the one vehicle with "no data available."

It's a conspiracy by NADA to supress the historic values j/k jk

mjfloyd1

I had thought that valuing the TDI on the day the dirty diesel scandal broke was doing us a favor vs the devaluation that occurred post scandal... It seemed pretty true until when dealerships and individual sellers started to figure out that the NADA values were much higher than the cars were going for at auction.

qbrozen

andres3 said:

andres3 said:

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

'15 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG The SE should already define most of the standard options and equipment (such as Fender audio, leather steering wheel, 17" 225/45/R17 wheels/tires, & panoramic glass roof), but it also has: Tungsten Gray Exterior Paint Black Leatherette Interior DSG 6-speed transmission Options included extra floor mats, cargo blocks, cargo cover, first aid kit. Figure around 1,000 miles per month, so let's say it was 3 months old with 3,000 miles for arguments sake at the start of the scandal.

D'OH!! Figures you have the one vehicle with "no data available."

It's a conspiracy by NADA to supress the historic values j/k jk

I'm looking at Manheim, though. I can see the Sep 2015 value of my 2014 JSW, which is $20k with 15k miles, on average.

VW is projecting they'll give me about $23.5k before the additional restitution.

corvette

qbrozen said:

I argued with him countless times on that point. 

LOL

He may not have been right about that, but has to be right about some things, since he's still acquiring dealerships left and right.

andres3

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:

andres3 said:

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

Oh wait. I can get some info through manheim. What are the specs on your vehicle?

'15 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG

The SE should already define most of the standard options and equipment (such as Fender audio, leather steering wheel, 17" 225/45/R17 wheels/tires, & panoramic glass roof), but it also has:

Tungsten Gray Exterior Paint
Black Leatherette Interior
DSG 6-speed transmission
Options included extra floor mats, cargo blocks, cargo cover, first aid kit.

Figure around 1,000 miles per month, so let's say it was 3 months old with 3,000 miles for arguments sake at the start of the scandal.

D'OH!! Figures you have the one vehicle with "no data available."

It's a conspiracy by NADA to supress the historic values j/k jk

I'm looking at Manheim, though. I can see the Sep 2015 value of my 2014 JSW, which is $20k with 15k miles, on average.

VW is projecting they'll give me about $23.5k before the additional restitution.

Ehhh.. not the same. Different Chassis, different generational design. The '15 Golf TDI is all-new in every sense. Probably why there is no real data on it.

One cool option for those rebels among us..... get the "fix" then re-tune it to be even more efficient with power and economy. When it comes time to smog (if required) tune it back to "fix". These TDI's are quite peppy with the tune; I drove a 13 year old Beetle with one.

kyfdx

Finally got the website to work properly, and got my documents uploaded.

I guess the next step is to see what portion of the seller pool goes unclaimed.

henryn

I'm still undecided about selling back in November (take the money while the getting is good), or keeping until 2018 (2 years of no depreciation). I keep seeing stories about what may or may not happen in Europe, and that is making me more nervous about the long run.

I am keeping my options open right now, avoiding putting any more money into the car. My only expenses so far were buying, one oil change, and fueling. I am signed up for November 1st (if that actually comes true), but I can still change my mind.

I am enjoying the car, . It fits very well where I need to park, the torque makes it fun to drive, and even though fuel mileage isn't particularly important to me, it's a kick seeing the display showing 47 mpg.

henryn

I just this posted over on TDIClub forums:

VW Update: Final Settlement Approval Hearing

The Court will hold the Final Approval hearing on October 18, 2016 at 8:00 am in San Francisco. If the Court grants final approval of the Class Action Settlement and approves the US/CA Settlement and the FTC Settlement on October 18, 2016, VW will pay eligible claims on a rolling basis as they are received and approved, and offers are accepted by class members. Eligible individuals can now create an account online at VWCourtSettlement.com, which will allow them to evaluate their options if the Settlements receive final Court approval. You will be required to submit supporting documentation including (depending on your particular circumstances): (1) Vehicle registration, (2) Vehicle title (owners with no lien), (3) Lease contract (Lessees), (4) Lender information and financial consent form (for loans and lessees), (5) Driver’s license and (5) Name of preferred dealership.


Appointments to complete the claims process cannot be scheduled at this time. If the Court grants final approval of the Settlements at the Final Approval hearing on October 18, 2016, then the claims process will begin. At that time, Volkswagen will review proof of eligibility documents submitted by consumers. If a consumer is deemed eligible, Volkswagen will send a final offer packet to the consumer. The consumer must accept the offer and return a signed offer packet to Volkswagen before he or she can schedule an appointment. Eligible Owners and Eligible Lessees will be able to schedule Buyback and Approved Emissions Modifications appointments within 90 days of offer acceptance and appointment scheduling. Eligible Lessees will be able to schedule Lease Termination appointments within 45 days of acceptance and scheduling.


A Status Conference has been set for November 3, 2016, to further address the 3.0-L vehicles as the EPA is farther behind on assessing a potential “fix” for the 3.0-L vehicles. Class counsel is doing everything possible to move the process along swiftly, and the Court encouraged the parties to work expeditiously to get the 3.0-L vehicles off the road as soon as possible.

stickguy

Henry, I had the same thoughts (back when I hoped to be in on this too). My perfect plan was to get one and keep it til the end (made most sense logistically and financially for me). But, always the worry in the back of my mind, that somehow VW ran out of money (BK maybe), and said screw it, and stopped paying. Then I would have been really stuck!

Sandman6472

One could also just let VW retrofit your vehicle, take whatever extra cash you'll get and just keep it and enjoy it. I know the original intent was to make a nice profit buying it and then selling back to VW, but keeping it is an option also, especially if one does like it. I know I'd love to get 47 mpg's in my Golf, right now I'm almost at 39, sometimes 40.
But, if one really likes their TDI's, nothing wrong with letting them fix it and taking whatever cash they offer up and above. Then one can enjoy the vehicle for a few more years.

The Sandman

henryn

sandman_6472 said:

One could also just let VW retrofit your vehicle, take whatever extra cash you'll get and just keep it and enjoy it. I know the original intent was to make a nice profit buying it and then selling back to VW, but keeping it is an option also, especially if one does like it. I know I'd love to get 47 mpg's in my Golf, right now I'm almost at 39, sometimes 40.
But, if one really likes their TDI's, nothing wrong with letting them fix it and taking whatever cash they offer up and above. Then one can enjoy the vehicle for a few more years.

The Sandman

The car will never again be worth as much as VW is offering for it right now. Not counting any bonus money (restitution), they are offering to buy the car for $15,500. I paid $14,500 including TT&L. Not counting TT&L, I paid about $13,500. The odds of me getting more than $13,500 on a private sale are about slim and none. So I can take this one time offer, and get $2,000 more than what I paid (or $1,000 more if you count my TT&L).

I will also receive restitution (bonus) cash of $3,049 and probably more, depending on how many sellers signed up. But that bonus cash is mine whether I take the buyback or the fix.

If I take the fix, get the $3,049 (+ some undetermined extra), then I will be looking at normal depreciation. If I decline the fix, postpone the buyback until December of 2018, I get to drive the car for two more years (up to 1,042 miles per month) and still get the same buyback amount. IF (and here's the worrisome part), IF Volkswagen is still around and solvent in December of 2018.

The more I read about unrest in Europe (I think they are very jealous of our buybacks), the more I worry about the long term outlook for the survival of VW.

28firefighter

I'm in the same boat. Like the car but want it gone as quickly as possible before something else goes wrong at VW. 

henryn

28firefighter said:

I'm in the same boat. Like the car but want it gone as quickly as possible before something else goes wrong at VW. 

I change my mind several times a week. Right now, I am leaning towards "take the money while the getting is good".

jpp75

I was talking to the tech at the local VW dealer last week while we were riding my Touareg. I mentioned that I would have gotten a diesel but the stop sale was already in place.

He commented that if I had gotten it I would be getting rid of it as there is no "fix" and from what they have heard they can't seem to come up with one that would work without major impacts to driveability.

kyfdx

Yeah... there is no fix, yet, and there may not be one.

Once they make an offer and you accept, they have 90 days to give you an appointment and take your car back. If it's over 60 days, that puts me past the first of the year, and a $300-$400 property tax bill. If it looks like that, I might ride it out for awhile. But, I've still got a 98K mile DSG in the vehicle, and that scares me a little.

If I had found a low mile, high option unit like @28firefighter , I can guarantee that I would be driving it for at least a year.

andres3

henryn said:

28firefighter said:

I'm in the same boat. Like the car but want it gone as quickly as possible before something else goes wrong at VW. 

I change my mind several times a week. Right now, I am leaning towards "take the money while the getting is good".

I think both Presidential candidates would jump for joy at the chance to do a bailout of VW if winning Tennessee's electoral votes at re-election time was important to them. Obama did it with Michigan. I think that about sums up 99.99% of the motivation behind the bailouts.

For Obama's predecessor that started the bailout bonanza, I think the motivation was not having those bankruptcies happen during their watch in the history books.

stever

Let's not go down Political Drive please

corvette

I'm already getting aftermarket warranty scam fliers in the mail for the VW. Problem: they all have my name spelled incorrectly. I'm guessing that the paperwork got transcribed somewhere and that is why I don't yet have the registration or permanent plate. The title came the other day, with my name spelled correctly. 

Sandman6472

Still on the fence about a warranty for my '15 Golf SE TSI, still under 23K now so have a short time frame to purchase one. 2/3 sure I will buy, just need to pick a plan to go with. Leaning towards a 5 year plan, trying to figure out mileage though. Drive around 13K/year and can see that keeping up at least till mid 2018, when I plan to retire again. Need to sit with a calculator and do the computations and then I'll know what to choose. Thinking now about going to 90K miles and if I decide to sell before, it's a transferrable warranty. Might help sell it privately to a kid who wants a Golf to customize or whatever. My one mechanic mentioned that to me since he said it looks pretty sharp with the color combo and the Jetta wheels.
Since I really do like it, thinking of just going ahead with this plan. Even though the CLA 250 is calling me, don't think the timing is right to get one. Even a CPO unit will probably cost me about $10K plus my Golf proceeds, a bit more than I want to spend right now.

The Sandman

corvette

stever said:

Let's not go down Political Drive please

I thought this discussion was about making VW great again! 

stever

We lose traction now and then on those slippery slopes.

henryn

Driving to work this morning, the DSG transmission in my ’13 Passat TDI felt a little wonky. I mean, that DSG is weird, and it always feels just a little wonky, but this morning, it felt even wonkier.

Where I exit off the freeway on my way to work, it is an uphill exit. Traffic is congested, moving slowly, or stop and start. This morning, I was letting the car roll slowly waiting for the car in front of me to move. The Passat came almost to a stop (not quite), the car in front of me moved, I applied throttle. Nothing happened, I was apparently not in gear. The engine revved, just a little (it was a very light application of the throttle). But no movement, no gear. I backed off the throttle, applied the brake so I wouldn’t roll backwards. Thought about life and the nature of the universe for a couple of seconds, and then tried again. This time it worked.

Of course, after this, I was paying very close attention to the transmission for the remainder of the drive (another 1.5 miles of stop and go). And naturally, I was seeing and feeling all kinds of problems, making me think the transmission was about to fall out.

I think if it does that again, I will park this sucker for the next month.

qbrozen

out of warranty?

28firefighter

I'd park it now, @henryn. The car needs to move under its own power onto the dealer lot, and the last thing you need is the transmission to lockup and prevent that.

My guess is the DSG fluid was not changed on schedule by the prior owner and you're seeing symptoms of that.

henryn

Yes, it's out of warranty. 67k miles. I have no way of knowing if the DSG was serviced at 40k miles, which was supposed to be done. From what I've been able to find, searching and reading online in forums, these transmissions are not particularly failure prone. And there are a number of anecdotal stories of people going 100 to 200k without ever servicing a DSG.

And, there have been many complaints down through the years about wonky behavior (especially at low speeds) with these transmissions. I'm going to adopt a wait and see attitude, if this morning's behavior repeats, then I will probably park it.

qbrozen

28firefighter said:

I'd park it now, @henryn. The car needs to move under its own power onto the dealer lot, and the last thing you need is the transmission to lockup and prevent that.

Ah, hell, weld it all together in first gear, tow it to within 1 block of the shop, and drive it onto the lot under its own power.

kyfdx

I've seen some conflicting reports about "moving under it's own TDI power". One of the reports said it only had to be operational on June 28th. That any vehicle that broke down mechanically after that was still covered.

Which makes sense. Why should you lose your buyback, just because the vehicle failed?

breld

@kyfdx - I remember reading that same thing. The only questions I have is how are you supposed to prove the car was operational as of June 28th, if it's not running on its own power now?

28firefighter

breld said:

@kyfdx - I remember reading that same thing. The only questions I have is how are you supposed to prove the car was operational as of June 28th, if it's not running on its own power now?

Exactly - I'd rather be safe and drive it onto the lot myself. The idea of needing to fight with them due to an irregular situation (or maybe it is regular because, well, Volkswagen) does not seem appealing.

andres3

kyfdx said:

I've seen some conflicting reports about "moving under it's own TDI power". One of the reports said it only had to be operational on June 28th. That any vehicle that broke down mechanically after that was still covered.

Which makes sense. Why should you lose your buyback, just because the vehicle failed?

Well, lots of reasons:

1) If it failed, it's no longer polluting. That was the crux of the start of this whole hoopla!

2) Same with a total, the greenies are happy to have cars smashed together so that they can no longer run and spew toxic vapors.

3) You can always pay to fix it and get your buy back after fixing it (ideally under warranty for those that have that option).

4) By stalling and lengthening the return window 2 years I think VW is counting on a few TDI's dropping from their liability accounting sheets; either via failure or destruction from bad drivers.

stickguy

A 13 not under power train warranty even? I thought also I read that they extended the warranties on tdis, or did I hallucinate that?

28firefighter

Only on certain 2009-2012 models and only on the high-pressure fuel pump.

Otherwise it is your standard 3/36 B2B and 5/60 powertrain.

andres3

Worst case scenario you need to put a couple grand into a major repair before selling it. Not the end of the world.