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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2011
    Veloster seems like a car built strictly for MPG. I don't know as it would be much fun but we'll see. A car needn't be fast to be fun. The one door on the driver's side and two on the passenger side is a bit odd, to say the least. With a 1.6L engine and 2600 lbs, it could be sorta peppy--maybe like a MINI without the supercharger.

    Don't think it'll sell for anything near $17K. More like $20K+
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    I think $20k or over for a Volster.I do 't need the bind spots. Thats how I got married. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree, that's the kind of car that will appeal to folks who want a WRX/GTI/Speed3 but can't quite afford one.

    Budget buyers will opt for the Accent, with the same DI 1.6l and 40mpg as well. Here you go:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/20/2012-hyundai-accent-five-door-first-drive-rev- iew/

    The 2012 Accent five-door equipped with a six-speed manual transmission will hit your wallet for $12,445 plus a $760 freight

    the most expensive buildable Accent will carry a price of $16,795


    So basically the Veloster picks up where the Accent leaves off. The only reason you'd buy one is to get something sportier or more stylish than the very competitive Accent it's based on.
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    edited July 2011
    How much in a Vw Polo 1.4 and mpg. I trust Vw dubs 2.5 in the Golf as the best engine they make.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    My .02 cents would be the VW Polo TDI, IF and when it makes it to the US markets.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd like to see it, but the problem is that would probably have to cost more than a base Jetta does now.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well I think at that future time, one would have to weigh the offering.

    So for example, if one is a high mileage commuter, 65-75 mpg (not sure what the US version would end up posting) waxes anything available right now. If one does a normal 12,000 to 15,000 miles US drivers average, then it is very conditional. It would not (for example) cause me to jettison either or/both my cars getting 48-52 mpg, 38-42 mpg. However if I was shopping for a compact car for commuting, it would hit my list.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited July 2011
    To be honest I think an oddball microcar would stand a better chance than a Polo TDI.

    Look at how much a Smart iQ costs compared to a Yaris - about $3000 more, for less car, really.

    But it's cutesy and trendy so they can do it. VW could perhaps sell a TDI in that class. Perhaps an Up! TDI.

    A Polo is too mainstream and would sell poorly compared to the Fit, Fiesta, Accent, etc. because VW would have to charge the same $3000 premium.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2011
    For sure what you are saying are some of the obstacles that may (or may not) have to be overcome.

    But at the same time, VW has always offered (in most to all trim lines) the 5/6 speed manuals.

    They took some "radical" action on the 2012 VW ("American") Passat and the 2011 Jetta. The "American" VW Passat is (up to) $ -7,000, it is also EPA 'd @ 43 mpg H. The 2011 VW Jetta is also cheaper. They managed to shave 300+ #'s off the 2011 vs the 2010 and 2009 MY's.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah but the Smart car has been bleeding money for years. That's no way to go.

    MINI got the cute + small + expensive thing right.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited July 2011
    Yep, MINI is a better example, a successful one.

    The Dollar is in the toilet. Gotta pay a lot of dollars to get enough Euros to offset the cost of that Polo TDI. Honestly I think it would only be $1000 cheaper than a Golf TDI.

    I think if they plan to build the next one in Mexico, they could pull it off. But isn't the plant there already beyond capacity and about the expand?

    Why take up that capacity for a less profitable model?

    Only if they needed it for CAFE purposes.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the IQ will do better than we all expect.

    I think the FourTwo scared people because it was European. I think the Toyota aura should help the IQ do better than the FourTwo.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the ForTwo's transmission scared a few people away. I test drove one, even though I wasn't seriously shopping, and that alone would rule it out for me, no matter the price.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    Elantra base model looks like a great choice compared to Cruze LS/stickshift.
    Lower cost, and a bonus with Elantra is cruisecontrol is available with the base model.

    We are listing many cars & different models available with manual transmission , so the future of the manual transmission is looking GOOD !
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited July 2011
    The problem, though, is that the Hyundai's manual is a chunky mess that feels a lot like the stuff Ford was making a decade ago.

    Drive an Accord with manual and there's just no way you can stomach the Hyundai. Any serious driver will pay the extra money or even get a CPO Honda after doing a back-to-back test like this.

    And Honda's not that special, either. I consider it a good acceptable standard, though. Anything worse should be off your list.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,540
    edited July 2011
    Have you consider a Honda Fit manual? Wonderfully functional. Nice manual.

    Or, try the mutant Fit--the Mazda5. Nice 6 speed manual there for just a few more dollars than the Fit.

    In fact, probably about the same price. How? Well the 2011 Fit Sport manual has a list of $17,600--but because of the shortages you'll be paying probably full list price.

    The 2012 Mazda5 6 MT has a list of $19,900. But because there aren't any shortages my local dealer seems to offering $3000 off list. In other words, you might be able to get a bigger and much more powerful Mazda5 for *less* than a Honda Fit.

    It's worth thinking about. The Mazda5 won't get the same high mpg, but it's still pretty decent. And it's a pretty awesome vehicle for the price. Short review by consumer reports of a Mazda5:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MBqBM161gI

    CU tested an auto. But one of the car mags tested the manual and got 0-60 in about 8.3. That will wup a Honda Fit.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    Cruze LS 6-speed manual is dreamy - I was amazed at the click-click-click! Easiest clutch/shifter ever.

    I did not consider the Fit or any non-GM vehicle thanks to almost $5k "cashback" via GM card and Pontiac "retention" cashback.
    I did not testdrive Fit but thought that Fit is too small for my preference, with bad mpg for such a small car, bad highway ride, not quite enough of a car to be a "real" car imho.
    And with the Fit at the same price as the bigger/better-highway-riding Chevy Cruze, that leaves me with Cruze. (I was considering waiting for the chevy sonic too, awesome/cute car but probably too small for my highway-cruisin taste.)

    I'm sure the Fit has an great manual transmission though - every manual honda I've owned/driven has been great.

    I bet I would like the Mazda5 MT. Or the Mazda3 MT. !

    All this talk about speed/power/0to60 is irrelevant/non-starter for me since I wanted a low-$/slow/stealth car to complement my absurdly-fast other car...

    I wonder how much will be the stickshift New New Beetle ! ? I like it. The TDI New New Beetle will be nifty. but probably a lot more than the $20,600 for the 2006 Beetle TDI DSG I owned for a while.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    My sister three years ago was looking for a car and it was between a Civic and a Mazda 3. So I did my completely anal big brother research project (tm) and looked at the cars from top to bottom, ran the numbers, and ignored the sheet metal and styling.

    They literally were different in less than ten different (and small ones at that) ways. If someone was trying their best to copy the other, you'd not know which one was being copied and which was the original.

    But the same thing doesn't with the Mazda 6 and the new "Accord" It's actually not the replacement Accord - the TSX is. Honda sells the real Accord as the TSX over here and gives us a car that's in-between the Civic and the Accord in quality. It's why the new Accord in the U.S. feels like a small change instead of Honda's typical "next generation" of a model. (just compare the old Civic vs the new one)

    So actually the Mazda 6 is a slightly better car than the U.S. Accord. And it has a very nice manual transmission, unlike Ford, Nissan, Hyundai, GM, and most of the rest. And, they year-end incentives, which Honda never really offers due to their huge arrogance are fantastic.

    It's the choice to get, IMO.

    But if you're looking for a micro-van type vehicle, well, we just don't get very many good choices. Of them all, the Jeep Patriot actually gets my vote. The Fit has a much smaller opening than the cargo area's width, which just irks me. The (current generation) Matrix is, well, it's a Toyota and while it's nice, it drives more like a minivan now and needs at least 50 more HP. Most of the crap GM makes in terms of small cars should just be rolled off a cliff (Cruse is probably the only exception). And VW, you have to love them and all, but while they make the perfect cars for this sort of segment, your bank account won't like the costs of keeping one running.

    The only thing that I would recommend, then, would be a previous generation Subaru Impreza wagon. You can get one in great shape and it absolutely will do what the OP wants.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    My sister three years ago was looking for a car and it was between a Civic and a Mazda 3. So I did my completely anal big brother research project (tm) and looked at the cars from top to bottom, ran the numbers, and ignored the sheet metal and styling.

    They literally were different in less than ten different (and small ones at that) ways. If someone was trying their best to copy the other, you'd not know which one was being copied and which was the original.


    Interesting; three years ago I was in the same boat as your sister and feel the differences between the Civic and the Mazda3 were much more significant. Forgetting the intangible of how well they drive (the Honda isn't even in the same league as the Mazda in this regard, IMHO), the single largest difference was price. I found the Mazda3 i Touring Value Edition compared to the Civic ES was about as apples to apples as I could get, and the MSRP of the Mazda3 was running about $2,200 less than the Civic (more importantly, the Mazda was almost bang on $2,800 less after negotiations were complete).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2011
    I think anymore there is way TMI, and a lot of things are opaque. So it pays to do good homework and then go out and test drive. After the first major tune cycle (04 Civic for example @ 110,000, 120,000 miles) is a good time to do a good measurement of, did the projection match the real world execution analysis.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Well, I was looking at the cars from a mechanical and performance and features standpoint. Price and the interior wasn't a factor, really, (let's face it, both are budget cars, so if it doesn't have leather standard, don't get too fussy)

    But yes, as I stated with the 6 (and it's true for the 3 as well), the prices are much better on the Mazdas. I liked the Honda's interior a bit more, but the fact that I couldn't see out the rear while backing up or see the front of the hood were huge negatives. And the video-game dashboard in the Civic isn't really my cup of tea.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hyundai's manual is a chunky mess

    I wouldn't generalize like that.

    If they put the same stuff in Kia's, I didn't like the Optima's manual, but we drove a Kia Sportage back-to-back and that shifter was very entertaining.

    So it could even vary by model, so hopefully the smaller cars have more satisfying clutches/manuals.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,540
    Mini has launched a campaign to support the manual. No kidding:

    http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=154881

    Mini: Get In Touch With Your Inner 'Manualhood'
    by Karl Greenberg, Friday, July 29, 2011, 6:27 AM

    Manual-Up-

    For the record, responses to my query on Wednesday about which automaker would (have the audacity to) launch an ad campaign promoting manual transmission, by far favored Dodge, which is not that surprising given the brand's rakish advertising. But it's not Dodge. Nor is it the other brands people offered: VW, Audi, Porsche, Nissan, Mazda, two votes for Fiat, a couple of votes for Cadillac, two Chevrolets, one Corvette (which I sort of don't see as Chevrolet), two Chryslers, one vote for Jeep, and one for Saab.

    Only one person actually got it right (kudos to Tom Keane at USA Weekend.) Yes, it's Mini. And the BMW unit actually makes perfect sense if one recalls that when the brand (re)launched here in 2002, it offered the Mini Cooper only as a manual-shifter, and most certainly the brand has the highest manual take-rate percentage among any automaker that isn't a pure sports-car brand.

    Thomas Salkowsky, manager of Mini brand marketing, says that in spite of an increasingly clutch-free world, about 34% of buyers of the Clubman, the Mini Cooper convertible and the hard top buy the manual version, and that even for the AWD version of the Countryman, Mini's answer for a crossover, the manual take rate is about 30%. In New England, according to Salkowsky, it's a 50/50 split between auto and manual, and even in highway-bound L.A. it's about 15%. That's a huge percentage, given the national average. AOL Auto's editor, Kirk Seaman, wrote last year that back in 1985 22.4% of all vehicles sold in the U.S. came with a manual transmission. By 2007, it was 7.7%. AOL Autos says last year it was about 5.5%.

    So the Woodcliff Lake, N.J.-based Mini this week is rolling out a campaign celebrating its "Manualhood," touting the virtues of old-fashioned shifting, and new-fashioned technology that makes it just a bit easier during those terrifying moments starting from zero on hills: the widgetry keeps the brake on for about three seconds so one does not ram the car behind when the light turns green....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    Hahaha; for some reason, that doesn't surprise me at all. Mini's brand promotion seems to trend toward the unique side.

    As far as the take rate, we've all discussed it before. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy: If you offer fewer manuals, fewer manuals will be purchased.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Kudos...they join C&D on my "cool" list.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    The average mini driver that I've encountered on the road seems pretty 'sporty' or perhaps aggressive, too. I wouldn't say reckless, or dangerous. Just accelerating hard, taking corners with greater-than-typical speed, quick lane changes.

    They really believe their little cars are fast. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited August 2011
    Well....fast enough for everyday business! I beat a Harley out of the toll gate the other day into a lane squeeze...he gave me the finger for 1/4 mile. He was wearing a kind of shabby-chic [non-permissible content removed] helmet. Charming fellow but he still lost :P I'm pretty good with a MINI stickshift, but it's not easy. Also switched off traction control.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So what was the big deal? In a lane merge (2 lanes to one) the person in the non merge portion has the right of way!! It has been that way since I started learning how to drive Admittedly, that was a LONG time ago.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Gee I don't know. I had the right of way. I didn't even realize we were racing until I saw this wildly gesticulating minotaur behind me. I suspect we'll be reading about him in the papers.

    I always like to zoom out of toll booths--it's a rare chance to legally do a quick 0-70 with little chance of being slapped for it.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Only if you're exactly side-by-side, if one vehicle is leading the other in any way, then the vehicle in the lead has right-of-way.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I normally NEVER try to out accelerate a motorcycle. Its power to weight ratio is normally GOBS over any car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it wasn't a real motorcycle as we understand it in modern terms. :P

    It was more like mom's couch with a motor.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the right-of-way belongs to the vehicle with more mass, for practical purposes. ;)
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I think the right-of-way belongs to the vehicle with more mass, for practical purposes.

    Which is trumped by your plates - MA plated always get the right of way because, well we're Massholes and we really don't care about you!!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh so I should have yielded to the Harley?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,540
    "Well it wasn't a real motorcycle as we understand it in modern terms.

    It was more like mom's couch with a motor."

    LMAO!! Funny stuff.

    Manuals really can help you get the maximum performance out of whatever vehicle you're driving. And the turbo Minis are fast! 0-60 in about 6.5 right! That's fast. Makes me think of Star Wars:

    Han Solo: Fast ship? You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon?
    Obi-Wan: Should I have?
    Han Solo: It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships. Not the local bulk cruisers mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you old man. What's the cargo?
    Obi-Wan: Only passengers. Myself, the boy, two droids... and no questions asked.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If he was that big, yes. :D
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    Bingo, but of course AJ has it right, too (for practical purposes). ;)

    I want to get ahold of a Countryman All4 one of these days. I have to imagine it to be a LOT of fun on otherwise dreary winter days. :shades:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Presuming you don't have to drive over anything bigger than a snowball... :P
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    edited August 2011
    No, I really don't, as while our winters are long, dark, cold, and slick, we generally don't get much snow per snowfall. For us, 6" is a big storm! We had two 13" snowfalls within a week of each other back in February, and people were beside themselves. We might have 3' on the ground come spring, but it generally fell somewhat evenly over the previous six months.

    Speaking of MINI, they just released new variant.... the MINI Coupe!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    edited August 2011
    LOL!

    A 1200cc air-cooled Harley has a little getup & go, but not a lot. The 883 and smaller are dog-slow; 50HP and less. The watercooled V-Rod is pretty fast, since it has well over 100 horsepower.

    People riding the slow air-cooled bikes are still used to out-accelerating cars and trucks because they often accelerate as fast as it's capable, whereas most of the time cars aren't trying to prove they're cool.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Did anyone really think the original MINI was too big?

    Seriously. :D
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Well, yeah. Lots of people. A large group of the old Mini lovers were in an uproar over the size and weight of the MINI when it came out. I am not sure if they were hoping the new MINI would have 12" wheels...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Reminds me of Mr. Bean, the kids love watching those movies.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The old MINIs, especially the old Coopers, are a hoot to drive---maybe the most fun car *ever* to drive (next to a Bugeye Sprite)...that is, if you like the feel of World War I biplanes. :P

    They do break a lot though.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Not many of us left that have ever driven a Bug-Eye Sprite, DAMN that stearing was quick, TIGHT..!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The reason the Sportster 833 is dog slow is due to the miserable engine design, high weight, high center of gravity, and terrible gearing (seriously, when WAS the gearbox actually re-worked last?). If Harley were to actually make a modern engine and at least try to keep the weight down, it would be a different story.

    Of course, my love is classic cafe racer type bikes like the Moto Guzzi and Bonneville. The modern recreations are great to look at and yet are 100% modern where it counts. And some of them will go really really fast. And even go around turns ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A friend of mine some years ago made a cafe racer out of a basic sportster and he did indeed either rework or replace the transmission with something else. He lowered it, stripped off the 800 lbs of chrome, tightened up the suspension, did some aftermarket braking, painted it a beautiful black and breathed on the engine. He did a great job. It was the *only* Harley I ever wanted to ride before or after that time.

    Of course I can't say older BMWs bikes were any great shifters. It was

    Put in first
    rev to proper speed
    squeeze clutch lever
    count 1-2-3
    SHIFT (CLUNK!)
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    Hahahahhahaha; oh, man. I looked through the photos attached to that article, and there was one in there that had a classic MINI head-to-head with a modern. I never realized there was such a size difference (considering how small a modern looks!), but the modern car looks downright huge in comparison! Now I know why those enthusiasts Shifty mentioned earlier were so bent out of shape!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
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