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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Last I checked Lexus had less than half the normal supply of cars, and that was more than a month ago. I'm sure it could be worse now.

    Spare tires are becoming less and less common. You get a can of goop that most tire shops recommend you don't use anyway.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    Gee 100+ years of making manual transmissions and still having trouble making one that works ???? FORD. Quality is job one? The thought of them making a automatic transmission is truly scary.
  • heydudesheydudes Member Posts: 43
    The rain sensing wipers on my 23001 Lincoln LS have always worked great. They dropped them though in 2003 I believe because people could not figure out how to use them is what I heard.
  • heydudesheydudes Member Posts: 43
    Yep. In order to get my 2001 Lincoln LS with a manual tranny, I had to call Lincoln marketing VP. Local dealers laughed at me. Unbelievable that this kind of stuff is still going on. Always will here in USA I guess.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    If I read the recall notice correctly, the issue isn't the manual transmission per-se, but the engine control software that shuts off the fuel flow during a shift event (I assume for pollution control purposes).

    That said, I only skimmed the notification this morning on the way in so I may well have missed some critical points. Anybody?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There are times when I truly forget how seamless the VW Jetta TDI 5 speed runs on drive by wire.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    You kept a first year W203 for a decade? You must like punishment ;)

    New C can also be had with a manual, rare, but they exist.
  • heydudesheydudes Member Posts: 43
    Just read a story on XXX news that the manual trannies involved are made in China (surprise!) by a joint venture of Ford and Getrag.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Compared the the old C class, the new C class is... Well, it feels like a "Mercedes" again. You know, that same feeling you get with classic ones from the 60s and 70s.

    And it's decently reliable.

    The other vehicle I'd recommend is the Cadillac CTS. It's very nice and also designed by engineers in Germany who appear to be doing things right. Just one thing - change the synthetic oil every 6K miles and you'll be fine. The factory oil life sensor in it is wrong - the mechanics know this (it affects all cars with synthetic oil, actually don't rely on the computers to tell you when to change the oil as most are calibrated for non-synthetic oil.
  • sarastrosarastro Member Posts: 3
    The only new Mercedes C-Class with a manual transmission also has the "sport" suspension that makes a 3-inch bump feel like a 12-inch barrier.

    Besides, once bitten twice shy. Why should I even consider buying another MB after my first one was such a disappointment.

    The problems I had with my 2001 C-Class had nothing to do with oil. Mercedes put about $8000 worth of repairs into it while it was still under warranty... including one of the catalytic converters. It ate air mass sensors, and MB couldn't explain why. They just collected $750 each time they installed a new one. They also couldn't explain why all of the doors would unlock when I was running down the road at 60+ mph. Then there was the way it would reset all the vents behind the dash the way IT wanted them when I turned the engine off. It was designed to do this. So I had to put the vents back the way I wanted when I started up again. Needless to say the gears in the vents wear out at an alarming rate and are very expensive to replace. Then there was the time (1500 miles after an oil change) that the display screen suddenly told me I had TOO MUCH oil in the crankcase and should correct the situation immediately. I could go on like this for several pages. :lemon:

    The new MBs might be better but they've already blown their only opportunity to make a first impression.
  • sarastrosarastro Member Posts: 3
    Right you are, ateixeira. I stopped in at my local Bridgestone dealership and asked about the run-flat tires they make for BMW. The manager told me that they were rated to run with no air for 100 miles but that he wouldn't trust them past 75. Since I sometimes travel in places where the next intersection is 75 miles and BMW doesn't even have a tire well for an optional spare, that eliminated BMW from my search.

    I wonder if the Germans put up with this. I learned from talking with people in Europe that the Mercedes sold over there don't have all the gadgets that the models made for America have. Like they have dipsticks while in American models one pushes a button to check the oil. Apparently the manufacturers think Americans want this stuff. :confuse:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For a while there I think Benz entered the arms race. I remember reading an article about a new model that eliminated some 600 electrical functions from the previous model to stream line and simplify, so no surprise if reliability has improved recently. 600 fewer things to break.

    Even the Germans can benefit from KISS.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The C Class was also entry-level and I think Benz cheaped out on the car in many other respects. If complexity wasn't badgering the car at any given moment, then basic durability of trim and plastic pieces was.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    You can get wonderfully non-loaded-up MBs in Europe, our basic cars are highly optioned by their standards. Want a manual C with cloth interior, basic wheels, no moonroof, basic suspension? You'll be able to choose from about half a dozen engines. Our marketing people should be hanged.

    Oh, another manual model came up - in the final run of W201 (190E) cars, there was a "sportline" model sold here, the 2.6, with a manual. I think all will be considered 1992-3 model year cars. They are quite rare, but they do exist, I have ridden in one. I think the manual could be special ordered on other models too.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Constant need to use manual override for "automatic" functions.

    Sudden fogged over windscreen, or inability to remove same.

    System automatically switches to recirculate with HOT cabin, HOT cabin surfaces, HOTTER than OAT.

    Absent manual over-ride SLOW heating of cabin, COLD cabin.

    Automatically switches to COOLING mode, cool and dry airflow to the face and upper body, on the coldest night in the DEAD of winter.

    Manual over-ride REQUIRED, temperature UP, to quickly demist/defog windsreen.

    A/C disabled for demist/defog function with OAT <34F with no compensary HEAT supply.

    IDIOTS.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    If I start my car with the wiper control in the rain sensing position it is dsabled unless/until I turn it off and then back on.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    DBW allows VW to implement a technique, and "ABS" type technique, that removes at least one of the HAZARDS of a manual transmission in a FWD or F/awd vehicle. They use DBW to UP-REV the engine in case the driver inadvertently downshifts to a level that results in wheelskid, too much engine braking for road/surface conditions.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    Is there a translator available to turn this garble into something readable?
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    The two cars I've had with Rain-Sensing Wipers required the driver to "tickle" the wiper control following a vehicle shutdown (where RSW was enabled prior to shutdown) to reactivate the RSW mode.

    If nothing else, this prevents you from forgetting the RSW mode is on and then taking your car to a carwash and having the brushes rip the wiper arms off the car.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "DBW allows VW to implement a technique, and "ABS" type technique, that removes at least one of the HAZARDS of a manual transmission in a FWD or F/awd vehicle. They use DBW to UP-REV the engine in case the driver inadvertently downshifts to a level that results in wheelskid, too much engine braking for road/surface conditions. "

    Such a downshift is even more hazardous if one is driving a RWD vehicle.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Is there a translator available to turn this garble into something readable?

    No, it's wwestish. Even NASA, MIT and CalTech have given up trying to understand it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    On the other hand, a car without nanny controls would have taught the driver not to downshift at too high a speed, and to watch that big tachometer-thingie in front of him, by scaring the hell out of him.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited August 2011
    Well, then you should look at the Cadillac. It's solid, a LOT less to fix than a BMW or Audi or Mercedes, has a proper ride and feel (not punishing), and still has enough bling to satisfy your needs.

    ie - "I chose this because I wanted to."

    Even today, nobody poor buys a new Cadillac. There's also the nice part about buying domestic and the image it subtly sends to others. Now, I know that you might not like GM, but GM does make exactly two really excellent cars. The CTS and the Holden Commodore (sold in Australia). My mother was looking at the BMW 3, the TSX, the C class, and a slew of others. And decided on the CTS. So far, it's been absolutely without fault of any kind. They've owned it for a year and not a single button or switch has broken. And the engine - their older LeSabre sounds like it has rocks under the hood while idling compared to the CTS. The engine sounds like it was made by BMW or Audi, it's such a vast improvement over anything GM has made in the past. (not surprising as the engine was designed by engineers over in Germany, some of who probably did work with other European brands over the years)

    It's fast, feels nice to drive, has a fantastic interior (and a NAV system that actually *works*, complete with real-time updates and re-routing around traffic problems), and yes, it can be had with a manual.

    Well, that's my take on it. It's turning out that despite GM's financial woes and all of the rest of the nonsense, they made a car that's turning out to be a true competitor for the European brands. But that's cheap to run and operate. Personally I love the new C class. But the cheapskate in me also knows it's not a 20 year old Toyota that you can get running again with stuff in your average toolbox under your kitchen sink.

    When stuff does finally break, you're in for a world of hurt. (same with Audi and BMW,unfortunately). The C-Class is a great car. But you should own one only if you truly can afford a luxury vehicle.

    So what about Japan? The only thing that comes to mind is the TSX and the G37.

    The Acura TSX is almost as good. But it suffers from a noisy 4 cylinder engine (really needs a 6 as standard), and is front wheel drive. Front wheel drive is a disaster once you get over 200HP or so. If you drive it hard, as us with manuals sometimes like to do, its behavior on mountain roads comes at you with a vengeance and reigns in your fun like a Japanese bureaucrat telling you that you need to fill in another form you didn't know about. Torque steer, horrendous over-steer, not enough power from the 4 cylinder engine, and heavy weight all make it abundantly clear that it's not a real sport sedan but a very nice commuter car. Which it does excellently. The faults aren't apparent at all until you try to drive it aggressively with the manual and find that you simply cannot do so.

    It honestly feels like a Japanese version of the new Buick Regal. Goregous to sit in and drive around, but something just is wrong when you try the manual in either of them. There is no magic, there is no fun. They just are and that's it. Perfect to go to work and back in style, but zero ability to make your heart race on the weekends.

    The G37 is good. But it somehow exudes zero bling as well. In fact, it feels like a boy racer trying to be the real thing, somehow. (considering its DNA is from the Z, this isn't far off-base). I know Nissan is trying to get it right, but they still don't quite "get" luxury and refinement aside from their top-end model, the M. But that's a huge floaty boat as well...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Is that transmission the same on as on the CTS-V. If so, it needs work.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited August 2011
    Now, it does have long throws and feels a bit stiff, but the easy solution for it is to get a better linkage.

    http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/CTSV/USSCTSV.htm
    ($400 and makes it shift like a $100K exotic - just buttery smooth)

    This is a typical solution for it and like with most factory shifters, a proper aftermarket kit solves the issues. OEM shift linkages are usually rubbish. I always upgrade mine in any car I own unless it's expensive. This one
    is good because the linkage is shorter and not the actual shifter itself.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    ah good to know.

    Gee you'd think that for $65K ++ General Motors would have given you a decent shifter to begin with.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Well, yeah, manuals are not GM's "thing". Though they do make the most reliable automatics, as they should, considering that they are the #1 maker of them. Many automatics found in other cars are actually GM units now.

    The transmission is almost the same in the base model, and unfortunately, almost all factory manuals are in need of upgrades to really perform best. (even the S2000 needed a few upgrades)
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    The G37 is good. But it somehow exudes zero bling as well.

    I like my G37, sport with the 6MT. It has more "bling" than I need :shades:. Though, I still have problems finding the right gear with the 6 spd during quick downshifts.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My hardest 6-speed shift is from 6 to 4, which is often necessary.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    No, Not, NEVER...!!

    You could fully LOCK the rear wheels, FULL SKID, and still maintain directional control via the front wheels. Back in my days in MT during the winter going down a relatively steep slope, SLIPPERY slope, I would often apply the e-brake to create just enough drag to hold the rear BEHIND the front.

    You haven't been to very many car races have you...?

    There is a reason NASCAR team owners NEVER select FWD vehicles, and when they do they modify them to RWD.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...would have taught the driver not to downshift..."

    Provided the driver SURVIVES the initial incident, more likely to occur on DICEY roadbeds than otherwise.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...FWD is a disaster..."

    And look how long it took the GM/Cadillac engineers to learn THAT lesson.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it depends on how the car sits and on what road it sits, whether anything would happen during compression braking. I'd be more worried about the engine than the driver, since compression braking defeats the rev limiter.

    Besides all that, a mere electronic blipping of the throttle isn't going to save you if you jam it into 2nd gear at 60 mph. When racing and double clutching into a turn, you're not blipping the throttle, you're really revving it. I doubt that any nanny-blipper is going to take you to a redline type of double clutching.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...FWD..." "...drive it aggressively with the manual...."

    Only an IDIOT driver would try that and the laws of nature will eventually take care of that issue.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    You're too funny. For all intents and purposes, a FWD car is much-MUCH safer than a RWD car when it comes to driving in slippery conditions. True I'd prefer RWD in virtually all driving conditions, but the fact remains that it is much easier to drive safely with FWD versus RWD.

    As for you're almost non-stop anti-FWD rhetoric, please cease and desist; you've gotten it wrong and the rest of us don't want to hear it again.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I suspect the up-rev "nanny" is more designed for the driver who downshifts without knowledge of poor tractive conditions. Yes, we can take it to extremes, into 2nd at 60MPH, but then that would likely only apply 00.1% of the time.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well we try to value all opinions in our forums, but once the point is made, it's usually best to move on, as it's often unproductive to keep hammering a nail once it is driven home. (Sorry if that sounded like a slogan on a refrigerator magnet, but I do want you all to get along here--shifty).
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Plekto: "....FWD is a disaster..."!!!!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I drive both FWD and RWD on a regular basis; like it or don't, believe it or not, they both have strengths and weaknesses.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    But around "here" there is always new, the next, nails to be hammered down.

    So, I'm not "speaking" to those with their mind made up, CLOSED, just to the "newbies" that have a need to know the truth.

    Other than the weight biasing helping to initially get up and going just what advantage is there to FWD...?

    Maybe that's why I like driving an older rear engine RWD VW so much.

    Anyone...?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    Just because you ask a question about front wheel drive, does not mean there is an inherent advantage to a rear wheel drive.

    Incidently, I drive rear wheel, front wheel, 4 wheel and one front and one rear wheel drive interchangeably. The transitions are almost seamless. Do I wish all of them were rear wheel drive, or wish they all were front wheel drive? NO !!

    I think we all get that you like RWD. Just the shear number of times you repeat it should be indication enough.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    What do these three have in common?

    A: None are the subject of this thread. Not really.

    I don't get around to transmission discussions that often, but even *I* am experiencing deja vu with this line of conversation. Let's try to stick a little closer to the topic... just because something's important doesn't make it worth repeating when it's not the focus of this discussion.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    I don't think it has every been approached in much detail about which have more: fwd sticks or rwd sticks. My guess is there are more FWD sticks.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Well, are you say more FWD sticks currently on the road than RWD (as in, a 1998 would qualify), or more FWD sticks of the current model year being manufactured? My guess would be different depending on what we're talking about.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2011
    Other than the weight biasing helping to initially get up and going

    Uhhh... that's a pretty big one. Get stuck, or don't get stuck. That's often a pass/fail difference.

    FWD also has packaging efficiencies. No center tunnel, more passengers foot room, more cargo space, lower cost, etc.

    I prefer AWD, then RWD, then FWD, but even so, there are plenty of advantages to each configuration, plenty.

    Getting back on topic...manuals tend to go in each for different reasons. On RWD models, it's usually because they're in a sport segment. On FWD, it's usually an issue of lower cost.
  • ronsteveronsteve Member Posts: 1,234
    The Acura TSX is almost as good. But it suffers from a noisy 4 cylinder engine (really needs a 6 as standard), and is front wheel drive. Front wheel drive is a disaster once you get over 200HP or so.

    The TSX can be had with a V6 (but that's auto-only), but if FWD is a disaster over 200HP, would you want one?
    2015 Acura RDX AWD / 2021 VW TIguan SE 4Motion
  • ronsteveronsteve Member Posts: 1,234
    What's the big deal? Off still means OFF, and you can use your wipers just like any old wiper system...

    My Volvo has OFF, INT (with a dial to set a range of intervals), low and high. And there's a little button on the lever that I can push to activate the rain-sensing wipers (and use the INT dial to set the sensitivity). It comes in quite handy in changing conditions!
    2015 Acura RDX AWD / 2021 VW TIguan SE 4Motion
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    edited August 2011
    Oh, man, AJ....

    Last winter we had a massive ice storm in November, which was really unprecedented for interior Alaska, that last three days. On the first day, which was arguably the slickest due to it catching DOT maintenance crews unawares, the roads were so slick that even the crowns were causing vehicles - even otherwise non-moving vehicles! - to slide into the ditch.

    While I would have loved to have my AWD Forester that day, I drove my FWD Escort. For a one-wheel-drive car, it did very well even though I had to work my rear off to keep it on the road. I can say without any reservation at all that had it been RWD, not even I could have kept it from landing ditch-side. At times, I had to drive it toward the center of the road at a significant angle just to keep it from sliding down the crown. I could not have maintained that sort of directional control if the drive wheel was not also steerable - no way.

    I think the manual transmission also helped dramatically, as it allowed me to keep the tires in "low torque" as much as possible so that my tires - very good ones, I might add - could keep what little traction they had available to them. After all that, though, the most stressful part was the downhills. I was so relieved to get home (finally!), swap out to the Forester, and get back on the roads. That car was such a blast that week! :shades:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Of course if you're going up a *steep* uphill with a FWD and a stickshift, it really is pretty much the worst of all possible configurations---the only thing worse would be a FWD pickup truck. Once you start to slip the front tires, it's very hard to modulate the clutch *while* you are rolling backwards as well.

    I also don't like torque steer and with the TC turned off on my MINI, there's plenty of that.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    edited August 2011
    I don't like torque steer either. While I'm sure the old Escort is much more subdued (to put it lightly) than your MINI, it is definitely there.

    That particular day, however, all other factors being equal, the FWD set up served me better than RWD could have.

    I did hit one hill that proved both steep and slick enough to stop me; I ended up having to turn slide around. It was a simple enough maneuver, though... I just threw it in reverse as I lost forward momentum, blipped the clutch to start the front end swinging around, then threw it into first as it spun around to face downhill, then slowly continued the crawl to the bottom. The only problem was that my alternate, less steep path to the top was a point part-way down the hill, and there was no way to actually slow down... I could only limit how quickly I gained speed. I made it, though, and eventually made both the hill and our destinations.

    I love winter driving, but the condition of the road that day was not something I would want to repeat overly often. Well, at least not with that car. :surprise: ;)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
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