The Future Of The Manual Transmission

shipo

"So, I toss a drag anchor, empty bucket, into the water behind my boat, at what/which point does the laws of physics change and the rear of my boat tries to get into the lead...?"

Fail; epic fail!

If you think driving a car is like piloting a boat then it's no wonder why you don't understand the concept. Like it or don't, believe it or not, if you apply too much negative acceleration to the rear wheels of pretty much any wheeled vehicle from a coaster-brake bicycle to a multi-million dollar F1 car, it's going to have the back end come around.

skibry1

Back in DoubleOught when looking for a new car the Alero had a manual tranny designed in Germany assembled in Italy. Getrag was the designer
for that unit also...any Alero 3-pedalers out there?

qbrozen

Manuals, pure manuals, will be sticking around but only as a "boutique" class.

Sticking around is still sticking around. Fine by me.

Also, how many practice runs would YOU need in the RWD of your choice in order to come out just as close to the top as you did with your FWD...?

Well, like I said, I'm not going to be as fast in my 540i no matter how much practice I get. It is 400-500 lbs heavier and easily overpowers its rear tires. If we go by cost, there is not such thing as a stock RWD car for the same price as my GTI (new vs new) that will outperform it.

Mr_Shiftright

There are so many variables in talking about the stability of various drivetrain platforms. One could argue, for instance, that the mid-engine design is the best handling, and one might be right----but you can snap-spin a mid engine car so fast that even Andretti couldn't bring it back.

shipo

"If we go by cost, there is not such thing as a stock RWD car for the same price as my GTI (new vs new) that will outperform it."

I'm thinking there are precious few RWD cars of any stripe or cost that can challenge a GTI on a tight track; the Honda S2000 (no longer in production) comes to mind as one of the few.

Mr_Shiftright

a Porsche 944 turbo could I bet.

wwest

I would whole-heartedly agree if your statement was being made about a FWD or F/awd vehicle, "anchor" the front of one of those, add a touch of drag at the front, and yes, the rear would "want" to lead the front.

"..apply too much negative acceleration..."

Negative acceleration, REAR braking, DRAG at the REAR, and the rear would begin to come about...!! Did you really flunk physics that horribly...?

ruking1

Yeah actually I was thinking the same. Glad you mentioned it.

ruking1

I suspect that in auto X, they don't much care in what car you get the lowest times (all things being equalized of course) just that you get it.

qbrozen

whoops. Wait a sec. I have to take that back. For similar money, a miata can at least outperform it at an autoX.

Mr_Shiftright

AutoX is a lot about wheelbase, isn't it?

qbrozen

certainly something with an extralong wheelbase would be a problem, but I wouldn't say its overly dominant.

For example, a C5 Z06 is still the overdog in a class that includes the Elise.

Mr_Shiftright

Interesting...the Z06 is not a tiny car by any means.

which reminds me... I NEED MORE POWER....what with ordinary sedans these days sporting 250+ HP, I can't get away from these maniacs fast enough. Maybe a Corvette would do it--used ones are cheap.

kyfdx

I NEED MORE POWER....

Really? Just rented a 4-cylinder Camry for a week... was thinking, what's the point of the V-6?

I was chirping tires all over the place... :surprise:

lemmer

I agree. The Sonata has done away with the V6 option and the Malibu is about to do the same. For a family hauler, the 4's have more than enough power.

Of course, I think Mr. Shiftright is thinking in different terms.

ateixeira

Of course if you're going up a *steep* uphill with a FWD and a stickshift

Auto as well...all the weight shifts back. You could use momentum, though.

Long wheelbases make the problem worse. My Sienna struggles to climb up my driveway when there's snow.

My Subaru laughs it off like it's nothing.

ateixeira

Give yourself some credit - that's called good driving.

GTI are not particularly quick at track events.

Mr_Shiftright

I need MORE POWER because the new game in California is to not let you merge onto the freeway, then accelerate and try to run you into a wall so that you don't "beat them". I realize I'm supposed to yield on a merge but I'm not always prepared for them romping on the gas to shove me aside after I'm already exceeding the speed limit.

I think I need about a 4.3 to 4.5 -second car so that it's "no contest". :P

kyfdx

They must be more laid back down south... I was driving that Camry in San Diego...

Was actually pleased with the local driving habits... fairly courteous, though they use the horn a little more than I'm used to...

qbrozen

On a full track, my guess is it would probably run out of breath over triple digits. But it will shine in the twisties, and that is after all what I'm arguing for here. I've said it before and I'll say it again, dismissing a vehicle as non-sporty based on its drive wheels is shortsighted. It is simply inexperience talking. I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell you that ... just some other folks around here.

And, hey, as long as its a manual trans, who cares, right?

shipo

"Negative acceleration, REAR braking, DRAG at the REAR, and the rear would begin to come about...!! Did you really flunk physics that horribly...?"

No, but clearly you did.

Don't believe me? Get on an old coaster brake bike and slam on the brakes; the back will come around 99 times out of 100. If you don't know how to ride a bike (wouldn't surprise me) take a car out in the snow and yank the parking brake; the back will come around 99 times out of 100.

scwmcan

I know from experience what shipo is saying is true ( and would know it anyway even without the experience). The absolute worst car for bring the tail around I have ever driven was a 1972 Plymouth Valiant, that car if you just thought about braking hard the rears would lock up and you would be spinning. The best car I have driven was my 1986 Subaru 3 door coupe, that car was amazing ( though it's absolute limits I am sure were modest by today's standards). It was only fwd but it wa unstoppable in the snow. The only car I have driven that was uncontrollable in the snow was the Valiant that I mentioned above,the rest (various volvos both front and read wheel drive, a Mazda 3 and even my smart four two) have all been pretty good. The most important thing I have found is to make sure you have good snow tires and to not do anything stupid, I also have to agree that between fwd and rwd the easiest to control for a non driver in slippery conditions is fwd, rwd takes a lot more familiarity with the behavior of the car to drive safely, not to say that rwd is not more fun, and maybe for a driver always pushing the limits more controllable,but honestly on public roads no matter what the conditions almost every car on the road today has limits well above what should be used on road anyway, like I said rwd may feel more fun, but that does not make it inherently safer.

ateixeira

Integra Type R was also a very good handler, and did well in competition.

Does your GTI have a limited slip? Mechanical or e-diff?

Mr_Shiftright

A FWD car almost won the Indy 500----came in 2nd (a FWD Miller).

wwest

From about the 6th grade until I joined the USAF I "lived" on a bicycle, rode it everywhere, used it for my paper route, Sunday's even. That's now been a long time ago but my memory says you're wrong, DEAD wrong.

Then my bike(s) only had rear braking.

elias

yes, Mr. Shifty, I agree with you re the ~4 second car, that is one of the exact reasons why I keep one of those handy in the stable of 2 manual-transmission cars.

If one's speed at the end of onramp is properly FASTER than the freeway traffic, then merger/mergee is reversed, and such faster onramp traffic can then be very polite about letting the freeway traffic merge.

qbrozen

The ITR is still a leader in SCCA D stock, believe it or not. It does have stiff competition this year, though, since the MiniS was reclassed to D stock.

The GTI doesn't have any form of LSD. I'd like to add one, but that, of course, would put me in a modified class.

qbrozen

Had that happen to me once on a completely dry road heading downhill in my '79 Zephyr. Came over a peak and a truck was slowly pulling out of a driveway about 50 yards ahead. I stomped on the brakes, locked them up, and the rear started coming around. I had to let up and straighten it out. Luckily the other driver saw this happening and decided it was in his best interest to flex his right foot and get the heck out of the way.

shipo

I see that for you at least, de-nile is only a river in Africa.

Face it, we all know you've got it wrong, in fact, we all suspect even you know you've got it wrong and you're just being a contrarian because you're too embarrassed to admit you messed up.

wwest

You're talking about a non-ABS car and it was more likely than otherwise your FRONT brakes that locked up resulting in the rear trying to come "about".

wwest

Try as I might I simply cannot get my mind around the idea that applyiing braking at the rear of a car, or bicycle, skidding or not, would or could result in the rear suddenly trying to lead the front.

RWD, power, over-driving the rear, yes, but braking at the rear...??

stever

It's pretty easy to take a single speed Bendix (rear) brake bike, slam on the brake, stick your left foot down, steer/lean a little to the left, and skid the rear wheel around. Easier on gravel or grass.

bobw3

I think that the CVT will replace both automatic and manual transmissions in most cars due to their efficiency...it's just a matter of time. Similarly, hybrids of some form will be in most cars too.

shipo

You're talking about a non-ABS car and it was more likely than otherwise your FRONT brakes that locked up resulting in the rear trying to come "about".

ABS, Traction Control, Skid Control, all of the above, none of the above, it matters not; if the driver of a manual transmission equiped RWD vehicle dials in enough negative acceleration to to cause the tread of the rear tires to exceed the traction available at the rear wheels, the car will attempt to spin.

I looked back and I see that you conveniently ignored a post I made in June which outlined a scenario which would result in a spin due to the loss of traction in a RDW vehicle.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef6716a/6884#MSG6884

Mr_Shiftright

Well you can easily learn this at the track in a RWD formula Dodge. Just lift off the gas in a fast turn and you're backwards real fast. Front tires, slightly turned, dig in upon decel, and rear tires want to go straight ahead.

andys120

Try as I might I simply cannot get my mind around the idea that applyiing braking at the rear of a car, or bicycle, skidding or not, would or could result in the rear suddenly trying to lead the front.

You'd have no problem if you ever drove my '79 Honda Accord hatch which had a nasty habit of locking the rears under hard braking on slippery surfaces (it was fine on dry ones). Usually I could catch the swing by countersteering but a couple of times it caught me out resulting in fender-benders.

Light in rear+weight transfer forward under braking=loss of rear traction (skid) with slightest change of direction.

It's not that hard to figure out and I could do it at will on a bike by jamming the rear brake only.

qbrozen

You're talking about a non-ABS car and it was more likely than otherwise your FRONT brakes that locked up resulting in the rear trying to come "about".

Actually, simple physics will tell you that the rear locks up first in this situation. Think about it, you are headed downhill and you slam on the brakes. The rear of the car becomes very very light. Without that weight over the rear tires, they lock up far easier than the fronts that have all the weight fighting the brakes. It is quite possible the fronts didn't even lock. They were still rolling along with all that weight behind them, the rears locked, loosing all traction, and tried to swing around. Pretty simple.

Mr_Shiftright

FWD, RWD---the point is, I think, that you don't do anything sudden or radical with an unbalanced car.

Mr_Shiftright

Here's a FWD car spinning out due to sudden liftoff on the gas pedal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBWKJhevh8

andys120

I'm not sure how that's possible Shifty, unless the tire pressures are way off and since they don't show enough of the car to tell what it is it could very well not be FWD.

qbrozen

well, that 205gti in front of him at the end certainly is FWD.

qbrozen

right, drive wheels definitely wouldn't matter in that case.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's how he titled his video, so I took him for his word.

I think the point of that video is to show that when a car is not in balance (such as, just in one case, it's leaning in a turn), that any sudden application of brake or gas will cause serious instability.

I remember when I was taking the Open Wheel course at Skip Barber (RWD Formula Dodge) and we would go around sweeping turns at (for me) considerable speed), that even if I let off just a bit too much on the gas, even "feathering it", I could feel the car move in the seat of my pants.

Which is okay, to a point. If you actually want to win races, you have to be right on the edge of control. "If you're in complete control of your car, you're not going fast enough" said one famous driver.

wwest

Yes, you can make it happen in just the way you describe, but not by simply applying the rear brakes.....

wwest

Insofar as I am concerned I haven't been discussed rear braking WITHOUT side, lateral, forces involved.

Mr_Shiftright

well that's pretty much impossible in the real world....have you ever seen tire marks on the highway from heavy braking? It's often not two lines,-- but four. Either the car gets out of joint, or the person slamming on the brakes that hard is trying to avoid something.

Saying that a RWD car will not deviate from a straight line when heavily braked is like saying that every car crash you see will be just like the ones conducted in DOT videos.

shipo

"Yes, you can make it happen in just the way you describe, but not by simply applying the rear brakes....."

What part of simply rolling down a hill in second gear using engine/compression braking didn't you get? So, no brakes, no downshifts, no nothing, simply rolling down a hill.

shipo

Insofar as I am concerned I haven't been discussed rear braking WITHOUT side, lateral, forces involved.

Hmmm, sounds like wwest is in "grasping at straws to desperately try and save face" mode. Sorry, you lost that chance a long time ago.

ateixeira

I remember when compact pickups needed rear ABS (not 4 wheel, rear axle only) because they would swap sides under braking.

Sure, those were RWD/4WD, but I'm talking throttle up, braking only scenarios that would make those things swap sides.

Those pickups simply had no weight on the rear axle, so anything at all would cause the rears to lose traction, accelerating or stopping.

andys120

I'm not sure how that's possible Shifty, unless the tire pressures are way off and since they don't show enough of the car to tell what it is it could very well not be FWD.

My bad! It's been too long since I drove a FWD hard! IIRC the fastest way around a tight corner with FWD is to dive into the apex and stab the brakes while turning which will cause the rear to slide out. Then you get back on the throttle and power out of the turn.

This was especially effective on my '83 GTI which would lift the outside wheel instantly cutting rear traction by 50 %. :P