The Future Of The Manual Transmission

andres3

I can't even tell you the RPM in my Miata at 80mph because I think I'd lose my hearing.

Sounds like your Miata needs Audi & Mercedes' new 7 and 8 speed transmissions! hahahaha.

I honestly thought the first time I got a 6 speed car, that perhaps the first 5 gears would be sporty, but that 6 would be purely for long and straight and flat, but alas, it was not to be. But your Miata is really turning fast, the A3 isn't THAT bad at 80 MPH, I think about 3,250 RPM.

xwesx

We don't have "Whole Foods" around here, but anyone who shops at a popular supermarket can relate! That was hilarious!

I cracked up when he said something like, "can you PLEASE move? You're blocking the Quinoa!"

wwest

Most of the time I don't downshift at all during coastdowns, just push in the clutch pedal, and/or shift into neutral, '88 911, '01 C4, 93 Ford Ranger I4, it just isn't worth the bother.

I suspect most stick drivers are the same way.

"..even the worst stick driver I've even encountered wouldn't wait that long before downshifting..."

Just what planet are you from....?

I'd bet, other than on the "track", that fewer than 1% of stick drivers even bother to downshift even once, let alone 3-4 times, during coastdown periods.

wwest

"...Playing Devil's advocate here ( I love doing that): ..."

Now I get it...

That's why it takes explaining something to you 3-4 times...

Mr_Shiftright

I don't usually downshift when coming up to a light or stop sign. I just put it in neutral just before the gear I'm in starts to bog.

I only choose a lower gear if I need it for something.

I really don't think I need a transmission to brake my car when it is hurtling towards a red light at 15 mph. :P

Kirstie_H

Since Lucifer won't be participating here any time soon, let's make sure we drop the personally-directed comments (just replying to the last post... not directed toward an individual).

ateixeira

perhaps the first 5 gears would be sporty, but that 6 would be purely for long and straight and flat, but alas, it was not to be

Yep, and like I said, Mazda got enough complaints that they made 6th gear slightly taller, but barely enough to notice. 6th should be TALL. I want 75mph at <3000rpm.

If I want to pass I'll shift. That's why I got a manual!

wwest

It would appear that your Mazda can't get down to 3000RPM, or less, at 75MPH without at least one of the following 3:

1. More POWER.
2. less weight.
3. Lower CD.

Or downhill, maybe..?

And then, only then, would the taller 6th gear be useful.

wwest

That was simply a repost of OP's own self-description.

bobw3

I think the problem is that manuals are marketed more for the zoom-zoom sporty factor more than for the MPG factor. Mazda in particular has been know more for sportiness than for high MPG. Because of this, the gearing on Mazda's seem to be designed more for zip-zip than for MPG. I wish manufactures would have two manual transmission options...one geared for MPG and the other for sportiness and put the sporty manual in their sporty cars and their high MPG manual in their plain vanilla cars. Problably too much cost/work for a manufacturer though.

shipo

In theory at least, Mazda's new SkyActiv technology is supposed to deliver both Zoom-Zoom and Fuel Economy. The new Mazda3 is supposed to debut this fall with the option for the new SkyActiv-G 2.0 liter gasoline engine and a new 6-Speed manual, and is said to deliver over 40 MPG. A year or so later they're going to be releasing the next step in the technology progression in the form of a new Diesel (which is supposed to be as much fun as the current engines but with the potential of delivering over 50 MPG).

I've also read that the two new engines will also find their way into the Miata. How about a 50 MPG 6-Speed Miata? Ohhh, I wanteth much.

bobw3

To me I don't see how they can really both gear a car for speed and for MPG. If you're doing it for MPG, you'd have every gear ratio higher, while for speed you'd have a shorter gears, especially in the low end. I think that's why when manufacturers try for the 40MPG mark, it's only on the HWY portion, while the city MPG remains in the 20s. If you're really gearing a car for MPG, you should be able to get in the mid 30s MPG city and mid 40s MPG highway with a car the size of a Mazda 3, but to do so would mean really gearing up the car.

ateixeira

It's has plenty of power. You hit the gas in 6th on the highway and it's actually quite responsive, much more than it needs to be.

My point is I'd be willing to give up that responsiveness (in 6th only, mind you) and shift to accelerate at highway speeds.

Go drive one, especially the 2007-08 models. Accelerate in 6th at highway speeds and I swear you'll think you're in 4th.

plekto

A year or so later they're going to be releasing the next step in the technology progression in the form of a new Diesel

We've been told "Next year" by manufacturers for a decade.

I'll believe an affordable Diesel car when I see it (ie - $15K, not a $30K yuppie fashion statement)

ateixeira

How about a 50 MPG 6-Speed Miata?

I'd be first in line to trade up. For me it's not even so much the mileage, as much as it is the range, due to a tiny gas tank. The low fuel light goes on at 260 miles for me (to be fair that's city driving).

Realistically, I'd like to see low 30s highway mpg instead of 28.

SkyActiv should help a lot, Mazda3 improves by leaps and bounds with that tech. Question is, can they do the same for the more tuned 2.0l in the Miata? Or will they scrap that and put in a smaller displacement engine with DI to compensate for the loss in displacement? We'll see.

ateixeira

$15k is a bit unrealistic.

New subcompacts like the Accent 5 door start closer to $17k.

Add maybe $2k or so for the turbo diesel, and you're looking at $19k at least.

Let's aim for "under 20".

ruking1

Yes Mazda has always made cars that have been fun to drive. However they have had a long standing issue with range and mpg. I have long thought that a USED Miata would be a heck of a lot of fun. The only issue around here is one has to use normally traffic ed freeways of 75-90 mph to get to CA Hwy One, where I would think the Miata would be in its element, if you could over look a lot of the construction that is going on. I was also amazed to find that the cockpit is about on par with an F4E fighter jet (when you are geared up). Man that thing is tight and I am by far not a huge guy.

ateixeira

Yeah, it's not really a good high speed car. Better for zipping around twisty local roads.

Mr_Shiftright

I can't even drive a Miata it's so tight in there for me. The MINI feels like a basketball court compared to the Miata.

My main complaint against the Miata, a truly brilliant car, is that the exhaust note sounds like a can full of gnats. It's hard to take the car seriously when it sounds like that.

ateixeira

You could fit if you remove the dead pedal and modify the gas pedal, which isn't hard.

shipo

With a 6-Speed transmission I see absolutely zero reason why gearing for performance and fuel economy need be mutually exclusive concepts. Even if you subscribe to the notion that there is a single "perfect" RPM for developing any given amount of power (a notion I don't subscribe to by the way), providing both performance and economy is simply a matter of building a gearbox with the first five gears closly spaced and the sixth "out-there" tall.

shipo

"Yes Mazda has always made cars that have been fun to drive. However they have had a long standing issue with range and mpg."

Granted my bone stock 2009 2.0 liter Mazda3 5-Speed is not as fuel efficient as some, I am still able to coax between 38 and 39 mpg out of it on the highway (if I keep the speed at 70), and more like 35 at my more usual 75-80. What may shock many is that my car returns that reasonably good fuel economy in spite of the fact that the gearing is set up so that I'm running over 3,000 RPMs at 70.

Mr_Shiftright

But at some point you run into aerodynamic difficulties...as you certainly know, the faster you go, the power required grows exponentially, not linearly.

In theory, you could gear a normal bicycle to go 100 mph, but in fact, you can't,** unless maybe you pump up the cyclist with steroids and some cyborg muscles.

** Actually I think the record for pedaling on a "bike" on the flats is 83 mph, but that's on a bullet-shaped machine that fully enclosed the driver.

shipo

"But at some point you run into aerodynamic difficulties...as you certainly know, the faster you go, the power required grows exponentially, not linearly."

Agreed, for the sake of argument, if Mazda was to take the 5-Speed in my Mazda3 (which as I stated above has me running just over 3,000 RPMs at 70 MPH) and give it a 6th gear yielding more like 2,500 RPMs at that same 70, I don't see any reason why aerodynamic drag would become much of an issue shy of say 120 mph.

Mr_Shiftright

Well if they don't have a 6 speed on the shelf, they'll have to design one for the car, which is really $$$$, and also adds to the cost of the car. I mean, new Mini Cooper S 6-speeds can push $30K when you option them up. :surprise:

robr2

Well if they don't have a 6 speed on the shelf, they'll have to design one for the car...

Or buy one from Getrag, Aisin or Jatco.

ateixeira

you could gear a normal bicycle to go 100 mph

They would have to draft a truck.

qbrozen

It's has plenty of power. You hit the gas in 6th on the highway and it's actually quite responsive, much more than it needs to be.

I've had this discussion not long ago with wwest. He seems to be under the impression that the engineers who designed a car made it perfect in every way and should not be second-guessed.

Yes, regardless of the fact that my GTI can accelerate uphill from 40mph in 6th gear, I was informed on this board it NEEDS to be geared that short because the engineers said so.

ruking1

Indeed 38-39 mpg (70 mph) is nothing to sneeze at, even 35 @ 75-80 mph. I wish I could tell you the CIVICS rpm at similar speeds but I am tach less. :P

bobw3

"simply a matter of building a gearbox with the first five gears closly spaced and the sixth "out-there" tall."

The tall 6th gear will help the highway MPG, but will do nothing for the city/suburb MPG. For that you'll need to up the ratios in the lower gears. It's really city/suburb MPG that makes the big difference with all the around town/suburb driving people do. I think manufactures just throw on whatever gear will allow them to reach the magic 40mpg highway figure.

ateixeira

it NEEDS to be geared that short because the engineers said so

Well, those same engineers made the 2009 a little taller.

I guess engineers correct themselves all the time.

The odd thing, though is that the 6th ratio on my gearbox is shorter than the 5th ratio on the 5 speed manual. Now that's just ridiculous...

volkov

Yeah, it's not really a good high speed car. Better for zipping around twisty local roads.

But that is the point. It was supposed to be a throwback to the old British roadster, although thankfully an infinitely more reliable one. Drive the English back roads and you will understand completely why they were designed to handle well, but were incredibly slow. The straightaways tend to be 100 yards long at the most and very rare at that so acceleration was irrelevant. You don't want to be going too fast when you can only see 30 yards ahead on a road that barely fits two abreast ( and some actually don't achieve that without both of you brushing hedges). Being lightweight and able to stop quickly helps there too.

volkov

John Howard did 152 mph back in the eighties on a bicycle and yes it is all about the gearing. He was riding behind a race car with a large fairing. It was called the Power Paced record iirc. I am sure it has since been beaten, and I remember seeing news of a horrific crash by someone trying to set the record a few years ago.

shipo

"The tall 6th gear will help the highway MPG, but will do nothing for the city/suburb MPG. For that you'll need to up the ratios in the lower gears. It's really city/suburb MPG that makes the big difference with all the around town/suburb driving people do. I think manufactures just throw on whatever gear will allow them to reach the magic 40mpg highway figure."

To say that I don't understand that comment is an understatement. The fact is that with the five gears my car currently has, there isn't one city/suburb scenario where I cannot find a proper gear for fuel economy. The thing is, for all speeds under 40 mph, my current fifth gear is too tall, in fact, it's too tall between 40 and 45 if I'm climbing a hill (we have lots of those around here). If Mazda was to simply add a 6th gear to my transmission, a gear which would drop the 70 mph RPM down from about 3,050 to 2,500, then there wouldn't be a speed under 80 for which I couldn't "optimize" my fuel economy.

shipo

"Well if they don't have a 6 speed on the shelf, they'll have to design one for the car, which is really $$$$, and also adds to the cost of the car. I mean, new Mini Cooper S 6-speeds can push $30K when you option them up."

Funny thing, not only does Mazda already have a 6-Speed manual (and have had for some time), they're also designing a new one under the SkyActiv banner. Go figure. :shades:

ruking1

I am having a hard time following also. The gears allow one to run the engine at whatever rpm one wants, given the circumstances. Is there one proper gear? NO !! So I know the OP'er wants to say something, but I still don't know what that is exactly.

andres3

At 80 MPH in 6th on the DSG, I'm at about 3,180 RPM's. I'd like an adjustment to make 80 MPH be a smooth and lazy 2,600 RPM. The A3 truly is a Jack of all trades! A 7th gear from the S4's 7-speed DSG would do the trick.

I have plenty of power going up the grapevine and 5th gear is never needed unless speeds fell below 55 MPH on a steep incline, then a shift down would be adviseable.

wwest

Let's not forget that the EPA has a "hand" in this matter also, a STRONG hand.

Okay, yes, maybe you can accelerate uphill in 6th gear, but why would you not downshift and prevent undue stress on your engine..?

wwest

You do understand that in order to do that your engine would have to be upgraded to produce the same level of power at 2,500 RPM as it now does at 3,050...?

wwest

"..Id like an adjustment..."

That would mean an engine upgrade.

shipo

No upgrade necessary; the engine can already produce more than enough power at 2,500 RPMs to maintain 70 mph (maybe not while climbing Independence Pass but that's not the point).

shipo

"That would mean an engine upgrade."

Not so; his engine can produce more than enough power.

elias

i've had more than a few passengers notice my cars are manual-shift only *after* an hour of driving or drive back and forth to lunch or whatev. other times the passengers notice before i start the engine...

the passenger surely cannot prefer automatic in those cases when they don't notice it's a stickshift !

Mr_Shiftright

I dated a woman who took THREE MONTHS to notice my car was a manual transmission. She said "I was wondering why you moved the gearshift around so much".

qbrozen

andres and I have the same engine, which has a torque peak at 1800 rpms. No upgrade is necessary.

qbrozen

At 80 MPH in 6th on the DSG, I'm at about 3,180 RPM's.

my 6-speed GTI is right around 2900 at 80. I wonder if the difference is DSG vs stick or if there are gearing differences between the Audi and VW.

iluvmysephia1

I dated a woman who took THREE MONTHS to notice my car was a manual transmission. She said "I was wondering why you moved the gearshift around so much".

And how difficult do you think it would've been to try and teach that woman to drive a standard transmission? Ponder that for a sec!

wwest

Peak torque is at WOT, not the way you "cruise" at road speed>

shipo

Internally the DSG and the 6-Speed manual are nothing even remotely alike. Per the VW and Audi web sites, the 6-Speed manual does in fact have taller overall gearing when in 6th gear.

shipo

"Peak torque is at WOT, not the way you "cruise" at road speed>"

Please translate; as it stands your comment makes no sense and/or *appears* to be completely irrelevant regarding the topic at hand.