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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    My '92 Sentra SE-R sounds like it's geared a lot like ateixeira's Miata. It's a 5-spd, and at 60 mph it turns 3,000 rpms, so you can do the math from there. Yeah, it gets a little buzzy above 70.

    I think in that car the 5th gear should have been true overdrive, dropping the rpms to something like 2500 at 60 mph. Would still have plenty of torque for most situations and, like someone else said, you could always downshift if needed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm at 3000 rpm at 70 mph in my MINI. Once I installed the supercharger reduction pulley (15%), this really helped response in 6th gear, as boost comes on a bit faster. (supercharger spins faster at a given rpm than it did stock). Still, it's no powerhouse going up long steep hills in 6th. It's a very "over" overdrive gear---thus the 33 mpg on the highway.

    RE: teaching someone to drive a stickshift. Some people never get it, be they man or woman; others are brilliant. My niece had it down in about a day, like a pro. She is rather athletic and thus very coordinated, so maybe that helped.

    My theory is that the most difficult student to teach a stickshift would be someone who doesn't know how to ride a bicycle. :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    3,000 rpm in 5th gear, ( 2003 VW Jetta TDI, 5 speed manual) is normally 90+ mph, more on the PLUS side+ ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited August 2011
    I wouldn't care for that gearing myself I don't think. Not sure, I'd have to drive one. Seems like you have a useless 5th gear in most instances, or too large a gap between 4 & 5. I'm not so interested in economy as I am in very close ratio gearboxes.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    Well for sure the car is optimized for the autobahn. That is running all day all night @ autobahn speeds. It is torquey in the twisties, but it will never be mistaken for a Lotus Elise (for example), or a MINI for that matter.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well no car can be all things to all people. Not possible. I'm always choosing a compromise when I buy a car.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    '92 Sentra SE-R

    Cool car BTW. I almost got one in 1991 but the price was a lot higher than the 91 Escort GT I ended up with.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    Yeah, I will never be an impediment to a Mini drivers front space cushion. To their credit, most Mini drivers either move or use lanes I do not use.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yeah, some cars do seem to inspire drivers who are into "lane-awareness" while other cars, which shall remain anonymous and begin with P, are oblivious to the world around them.

    I move over for anyone. The only people I don't give courtesy to are tail-gaters and lane-splitting motorcycles. They can wait until I'm ready to move.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Miata's ride height forces strong discipline. Trucks' headlights are pretty much at eye level, so you always have a reminder to move out of the way.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,733
    edited August 2011
    To paraphrase shipo:
    Your point is what?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    I am the same way. The only lane that rates a no move (by law) is the far right lane. But occasisionally I will move out of the far right lane, as the far right lane situationally IS the fast lane.

    I also grew up knowing that if I am holding up 5 or more cars (for whatever the reasons) on a one lane each way road, to use the turn outs.

    Actually is is both safer and SMART not to move while a lane splitting motorcycle is close. If anything happens, he will of course blame YOU even as it is probably his fault for splitting lanes.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    In Europe motorcycles always lane split. The fact I have seen them do it past slow moving cop cars who couldn't care less indicates it is at least accepted and possibly legal. Here I am always very conscious of nearby bikers, as a cyclist and former throttle twister myself. Over there I quickly learned to just ignore them and let them do whatever they wanted while I went about my business in a predictable manner.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    This might come as a surprise, but lane splitting IS legal. Indeed it has never been ILLEGAL. In fact, it is legal to split lanes WITH motorcycles (cars for that matter) !!

    I personally do not do it as a practice, but if I HAVE to I do/will.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I don't believe it is here in Maryland. Then again, I have never looked it up in the MD statutes.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not really...it is "not illegal" in California (but is technically illegal in most states) --- if done "in a safe and prudent manner".

    I don't believe that lane splitting 10 mph above the speed limit is safe, or prudent, and probably most highway patrol guys don't think so either.

    So really, it's not "legal" anywhere, it's just not illegal in some states, if that makes sense. They often turn a blind eye, but they can nail you for it.

    Short answer: it depends on how you do it and where you do it.

    So if I'm stopped in traffic and a bike wants to squeeze past me by forcing me to pull to the guardrail---nope. Or if I'm going 75 in a 65 and he's that nuts to try this....nope...I'm keeping my car just where it is.

    Otherwise, sure...have at it and drive safe.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    But in some of the cases it really did look against the law of self preservation! Motorcyclists here seem much more cautious as a whole.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well no. I have actually had (and seen) more than a few bike LEO's split lanes. Do I think it is safe nor prudent? No, as a practice, which are two reasons why I do not practice it. (in a car)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Motorcyclists here seem much more cautious as a whole.

    I remember hearing a while ago that 50% of motorcycle deaths are first-year drivers, i.e. rookies.

    I'm sure most of the other half are the organ donors who drive like idiots.

    And yes, here in MD they'll pull you over in 2 seconds for lane splitting at speed. Keep in mind all the anti "aggressive driving" campaigns. Cops win awards for writing tickets for things like that.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    I am NOT certifying it to be true federally and all 50 states, all counties and all cities, etc. I do know that in CA it is LEGAL. Now I also know that they (CA) really don't want folks to PRACTICE it, so they say it is not illegal, if pushed.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Even in Cali I bet cops can write tickets for aggressive driving, and that gives them enough gray area to pull over bikes doing stuff like that, I'd bet.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Engine torque curves/graphs are always done at WOT. The question here is: What does the engine torque curve look like for simple constant speed cruising..at 40MPH...50MPH....60MPH...

    Simpler way, what does the engine torque curve look like if you always remain in oxygen sensor A/F mixture control closed loop...?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    I would agree. LEO's have wide latitude. I do not think this is uncommon, but over the years, I have been directed (LEO's) to violate laws like proceeding throught a red light/sign, etc. Indeed if I didn't, I actually could be cited for failure to follow a LEO's instructions.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,733
    Again... why does it matter and how does it apply to the point?

    The point made was that, at highway speeds, the car could easily handle lower rpms without the need for more power as you stated. It doesn't matter what power is being put down at a given time. All vehicles are using less power while at cruising speed, hence better mileage than while accelerating. What matters is the power available. Where my peak torque is available is at 1800rpms. Therefore, at 50mph in 6th gear, full torque is available to me. In my opinion, that is too low. Even 55 would make more sense.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ah, I don't think it is technically legal in California. Let's research it offline and get back to each other---it's kinda off topic here anyway. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Can do. I really think the manual transmission (as a population) will grow slightly.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,925
    Not so; his engine can produce more than enough power.

    Especially true now that I've done enough modifications to turn my A3 into an S3 sans Quattro.

    So you can make a 200 HP engine output 300 HP with a bunch of mods, but the transmission will still pull the same RPMS at the same speeds as before.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,925
    In CA cops have enough gray area in the vehicle code to rewrite the Bible.

    Speaking of gray area, we have over 40,000 VC's in CA. Realistically, they can pull you over for any reason, at any time thanks to that astounding total. Some of them are written general as general can be "unsafe manuever, unsafe lane change, unsafe driving, unsafe turn, and such"

    I got one for "failure to obey a traffic sign" Doesn't even specify what kind of sign, just any old sign.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,925
    Well, I can testify that when the La Mesa PD rear-ended my back bumper with his Harley after lane splitting to my left, the CHP officer did not ticket him.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Harleys like to fall over a lot. :P
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,925
    edited August 2011
    Harleys like to fall over a lot.

    Yes, and with all of his PD traffic enforcement gear and lights, easily over 1,000 lbs.

    He had a heck of a time lifting it and getting it right side up. I have to admit, first thing I did was check out the damage to my back bumper even before asking if he was OKAY. Of course, I knew he barely hit me, might have been different if it was a serious impact.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..full torque is available to me.."

    Yes, but only if your desire is to accelerate to a speed ABOVE 50MPH.

    To simply "hold" a set speed "peak torque" as you're using it has no meaning.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    I was surprised to see that when I was in San Diego a couple of weeks ago.... Mostly in heavy, slower traffic on I-5... Still, we were doing 20-40 mph, and a couple of them caught me by surprise... Just about every single bike was doing it...

    I have no idea if it's legal where I live (and, I have a motorcycle license..lol), but I know I wouldn't do it.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited August 2011
    "California Vehicle Code section 21658 (see below).21658. Whenever any roadway has been divided into two or moreclearly marked lanes for traffic in one direction, the following rulesapply:(a) A vehicle shall be driven as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane and shall not be moved from the lane until such movement can be made with reasonable safety"

    Sooo....if you're lane splitting while over the speed limit or weaving in and out without signaling while lane splitting, you're gonna get busted naturally.

    I suspect the lane-splitting decreases the chance of mercy when committing another infraction.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I'm not sure why people don't understand how gearing affects MPG at lower speeds and how they can be either geared for MPG or performance. Let say to make it simple, if you elimated your Mazda 3's 1st gear, so 2nd gear is now 1st, 3rd is now 2nd, and so on. That would mean that all the gear ratios were one gear higher. THAT would get you better MPG because you're running at a higher gear in lower speeds. It would be the same as if you started out in 2nd all the time and never used 1st gear. However, even though you'd get better MPG, you'd lose your zoom zoom, just like you would if you started out in 2nd gear all the time.

    If you want to test this, for a whole tank of gas never use first gear and continue up shifting as if you're really in 1st gear. So if you normally upshift from 1st to 2nd at 15mph, then you'd shift from 2nd to 3rd at 15mph, and so on. You'll see you have less power, but you'll get better MPG. Now if the car were actually geared that way, you'd get the same better MPG for the same reduciton in power.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,925
    So you can just pretend yoru don't have a first gear, and row through 2nd through 5 or 6 and you'll get better MPG, no need to gear the car differently like you state to get better MPG.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If cars were geared for maximum possible MPG, people wouldn't much like driving them. We even see this annoyance in many modern cars with 5 speed overdrive transmissions that are geared too high---the transmission is constantly "hunting" and dropping out of overdrive, and it makes people nuts.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The more late model ones are putting in 6 speed automatic transmissions. I am led to believe 1 to 2 EXTRA gears will come on some higher end cars.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Even 7 and 8 speeds. Sounds like that 5-blade razor that came out some years ago. :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well gee if a 4 speed automatic is perpetually searching, imagine what a 5,6, 7 and 8 speed will want and have to do !!!! It took me a fair amount of time and behavior modication to do that with a Civic 4 speed automatic.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    "So you can just pretend yoru don't have a first gear, and row through 2nd through 5 or 6 and you'll get better MPG, no need to gear the car differently like you state to get better MPG. "

    That was just a simply example of how manufactures could better gear for MPG. But if we did like you said for real, then we'd need 7 gears :P

    Maybe that's why European cars get better MPG...they're not geared for sprinting after red lights like american cars.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Yes, but only if your desire is to accelerate to a speed ABOVE 50MPH.

    To simply "hold" a set speed "peak torque" as you're using it has no meaning."


    So basically you agree your original comments about the engines requiring modification before being able to push taller gears at highway speeds were both worthless and irrelevant.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,617
    make it stop. :sick:

    I've picked a side, but I'm tired.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2011
    I think we'll just start unilaterally deleting off-topic posts without notice. Last the previous two (off-topic for uncivil shots).
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    The fact is that for most cars, mine included, the EXACT SAME ENGINE is used for both the Manual transmission and the Automatic transmission versions. Given that the Automatic version of my car is geared to run 2,445 RPMs in top gear at 70 mph versus the 3,050 of the Manual, it is obvious that the engine is more than capable of propelling my car along at 70 mph at my suggested 2,500 RPMs.

    So, how is it that my engine isn't capable of running taller gearing?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well just because a car CAN do it doesn't mean it's neccesarily good for the car. But presuming your engine can pull at that RPM range in top gear (and not fall on its face when you step on the gas) then I don't see any problem with how it is engineered.

    We've all seen economy-type cars geared for MPG that are real dogs to drive, so one hopes that the engineering compromises are good ones when it comes to choosing overdrive gearing.

    I would suspect, aside from aerodynamics, that engine displacement would be a factor in how successful overdrive gearing is---without displacement you can't have torque and without torque, your low RPM pulling power is bound to suffer.

    Displacement doesn't necessarily have to mean multiple cylinders. Torque relates to cylinder bore size.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I'm under no illusions about how much urge my car would have if I wanted to accelerate from 70 mph if it was geared to achieve that speed at 2,500 RPMs, but that's not the point. The fact remains that the car is more than capable of sustaining 70 mph at 2,500 RPMs, just ask any driver of a 2009 Mazda3 i with an automatic transmission.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    You're missing two fairly important factors.

    1. With an automatic the transmission will be INSTANTLY downshifted should the need arise, incline, slightly more throttle, etc. So there is little or NO threat of the engine "lugging" due to the inattention, inattentiveness, of the driver.

    NET: the engine can be safely run in a gear ratio and low RPM wherein it is only just barely producing enough torque for current road conditions.

    2. "Stick" drivers expect a little more sportiness. A little more leeway in the requirment for shifting due to a change in current road conditions.

    3. The truth of the matter is that "stick" drivers have great periods of being lazy, me included, about being in the proper gear ratio for current road conditions. So some extra margin, engine safety margin, must be thrown in when building a stick shift car vs an automatic.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Most modern day automatics have at least 6 "base" gear ratios plus 4 lockup ratios. So an automatic running along at low RPM,very close to lugging, can simply drop out of lockup if the driver slightly depresses the gas pedal or reaches an incline.

    You may wish to take notice of all the complaints of constant shiftiness in these new 6(10) speed automatics. Something you simply would not wish to do with a stick shift, even if you could...you only have 5-6 speeds.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I intended no such thing.
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