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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We should hold a Rental Car Olympics! LOL
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    Do you think they come with different tires than any other off-the-shelf Camry LE?

    I don't know... just wondering... I think the OEM tires on a Camry LE might be pretty crappy, already..

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Supposedly they all get low-rolling resistance tires, i.e. crappy grip, great mileage.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    I90 through poorly populated Idaho has a 75 MPH stretch through a mountainous region with lots of sweeping curves. I often set my CC to 80ish but get a little uncomfortable not being in control as I approach what is at that speed (no traffic, enter low, exit high) a fairly tight curve.

    That's where I live, Kellogg, ID. Oh, yes. Sweeping, winding curves and 4th of July Pass going from Coeur d' Alene east to Cataldo, Kingston, Pinehurst, Smelterville, Kellogg, Osburn, Silverton, Wallace and finally Mullan, before one finally is up Lookout Pass and eventually heading down the hill into western Montana. We have ice and snow about 6 solid months out of the year with sometime brutal driving but a lot of time just common-sensed slowing down will do the trick to stay safe.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    We do our best to stay off your turf except mid year. I don't think I've attempted Look-out pass in the wintertime since Feb. of '63
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    the 2012 Camry won't have the manual option (only 6sp auto) but will get 25/35 city/hwy mpg wiht the 4cyl.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Continues a bad trend, though that's not the type of car manual fans seek.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited August 2011
    it was April I believe and we were heading west to Spokane to pick up our son at the WSU - Spokane campus and head back to Idaho. Once at Spokane it started snowing, it was about 34 degrees. On the way back we stopped in Coeur d' Alene to go to Albertson's. The snow continued to fall, and the temperatures fell. 31 degrees and we still needed to head the 36-odd miles east to Kellogg.

    Snow continued to fall...we headed up Fourth of July Pass. Whoa. Everything came to a stop...where are the snowplows? I'll tell you where they are, they're on the other side of I-90, heading west towards Coeur d' Alene! Trucks heading west were just sitting there half in the road and half off, and us, heading east? Going about 20-25 mph being careful not to make any fast steering wheel movements! Yikes, it took about an hour and a half to go 36 miles, at least. I was so tired when we got back to Kellogg that all I could do was collapse on the bed, falling fast asleep.

    Idaho's panhandle can be a much-adventured thing. ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Back in ~65 over the 4th of July weekend I was on vacation trout fishing out in the "toolies" north of Lewistown MT. It started out to be a nice sunny day, then about 9AM it started to cloud over, then by noon it had started to snow. Barely made it back to Lewistown it snowed so quickly and heavily.

    We decided it would be best to shorten our vacation, pack up, and head for home. Driving a Ford country squire SW, automatic, at that time and looking back I'm sure that drive home over Rodgers pass with 6" of snow would have been a lot less nerve-racking with a stick shift.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Probably would have been a three on the tree if it was manual. Sounds even more nerve racking.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    Kirstie, we won't really believe that 'getting old' thing for you, but if you know anyone who is feeling old, you can recommend they always state/write their age in base 16, and if there aren't any ABCDEF in the number, it works out especially nice.
    (Currently I'm in my 0xThirties.)

    WW and other experts, please consider this assertion:
    Manual transmission cars stop quicker than the all-else-equal automatic transmission cars because they WEIGH LESS.
    so LESS BRAKING DISTANCE from 70 mph to 0 mph for an manual transmission car. theoretically.
    Same holds true for 4WD vs 2WD/1WD. AWD & 4WD increase stopping distance & energy that the brakes have to dissipate.

    I await correction by our esteemed WW on the math for the above things, and I defer to his additional authority on the physics of spongepants squarebob's underwater wonderland, where I understand all the vehicles have automatic transmissions.

    Perhaps most drivers will never experience a spin and are lucky for it.
    I've handled one at 70 mph in interstate traffic due to road obstacle, and safely stopped 4 lanes of 70 highway behind me after fishtailing and then doing a 180 at about 60 mph. 4 lanes slowed and stopped safely for that one, zero collisions.
    No spin on yesterday's commute, but surely some drivers behind me collided with metal chunks or other car... Yesterday I safely stopped my car and 4 lanes of 70 mph traffic behind me: a big ladder and construction-toolboxes fell off F250 driven by maniac, like the tailgate fell open maybe. I had to emergency-stop in the left lane from 65 mph, all 4 lanes doing 70 mph behind me. I could have stopped quicker but but eased onto the brakes as *early* and slowly as i could, using every inch of the available distance to slowly stop. all 4 lanes came to a stop on the highway until the metallic debris/chunks all stopped bouncing/flying, and then everyone started driving around it in breakdown lane and between lanes.
    it was frightening, but not as frightening the memorable 180 @ 70 mph 30 years ago.

    WW may have a better analysis on what I should have done in any given situation: maybe chose to drive over the debris? (low car, big chunks of metal debris, bouncing all over the road directly ahead during sweeping left packed-traffic 70 mph turn, too fast to quickly cut into the left-breakdown lane without risking another been-there-done-that 180. debris bouncing in breakdown lane too. So 4 lanes of highway stopped due to my decision (and nearby-lane drivers somewhat-slower decision) to *stop* rather than drive over it all at ~65 mph. some people did not have enough space/brakes/reflexes to stop and they drove over it, then immediately pulling over with broken cars & flat tires. I reported all the details to the state police including those of the zigzagging/tailgating/aggressive F250 diesel driver who was in the middle of it and probably caused it.

    ps - the above 2 emergency situations both occurred with high performance manual transmission cars, making it luckier for me and the drivers behind me. gotta be especially careful not to brake too fast for the tailgating driver occupying one's entire rearview mirror when one has a car with especially above-average performance.

    The same newtonian physics that shows the rear-brake spinout danger tends to cause SUVs to roll over -> in that case angular momentum points sideways instead of straigt up, as in a conventional spin. interested readers can google "angular-momentum right-hand-rule", probably there is good wiki stuff on it.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    WW, let's discuss a specific example where I may agree entirely with your physics and driving stylings.

    Would you like to drive a Benz where it hits the brakes all by itself when someone stops in front and we may be too busy looking at the incredible seatcovers on the car driving in the adjacent lane? I'd consider it, especially if the Benz is a diesel! I wonder if the Benz electronic brain looks/considers also the cars behind to see if there are cars close that will rear-end-crash unless they-too have automatic braking! ?

    The electronic brain may well be faster to hit the brakes than the human reaction time of 0.4 to 0.6 seconds. I haven't really looked into it in enough curious detail since Benz is not really in my price-range currently! Maybe the folks over in luxo-car-forum have some experience/info about it...
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    great example ateixinator, with the speed bumps, about how the automatic transmision can't look ahead and see conditions requiring stop or certain speed required ahead!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Lighter vehicle, less roadbed adhesion when it comes to emergency stops, and then of course we have ABS, the more STOPPING power that can be applied to the roadbed the quicker/more ABS will "unbrake"....sounds as if you don't have ABS, or have it but don't trust it.

    The only time I worry, consider, the following vehicle's distance and speed is just as a traffic light turns amber. In an emergency stop, a TRUE emergency stop....my sole object is to STOP.....DAMN that ABS.

    New chapter in Newtonian physics that I haven't read..??

    Read braking, rear ONLY braking, has the same effect on keeping the vehicle "in line" as does the force of gravity in keeping a pendulum's weight at the bottom, downward.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    In an emergency stop situation, a TRUE emergency stop situation, how many of us would take the time to consider the possibility of a follow-on re-ender....??

    Not I..!

    Now if I have a CHOICE on how to stop, how fast, or even whether to stop at all (traffic light just turned amber), yes, I'll look behind to check.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Read braking, rear ONLY braking, has the same effect on keeping the vehicle "in line" as does the force of gravity in keeping a pendulum's weight at the bottom, downward."

    Please tell me we're not going to go through this again... :mad:
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Top end Prius has it too. There are a couple of complaints out there of it misreading bridge expansion joints and slamming on the brakes.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2011
    Was it Benz that was demonstrating a similar system to the press, and it failed and hit the other car? That may have happened more than once.

    Edit: Volvo is the one I'm thinking of:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9_ePZWxWGw

    Whoops! Though there may have been others.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,410
    Hey, the wipers work anyway
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Air bags didn't, oddly.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    I remember reading about Benz doing a similar thing in demo'ing yes.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My position is that automakers can put whatever gadgets they want on my new car as long as I can plug in my laptop and delete (or re-adjust) those functions as I choose....not of course air bags, but rather other "built-in" gadgets that were not options when I bought the car. This might include various transmission functions, DSC, as well as automatic headlight dimming, auto door locks etc.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just make them optional, put that stuff on the loaded up high-end cars. I avoid those anyway.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    These devices are now entry-level marketing tools.

    I mean, back up cameras on a Mini Cooper? Gimme a break.

    I suspect that my desire for the manual transmission is secretly about my battle to regain control of my car from the Nanny Police.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, that is funny, though there are some small coupes with terrible visibility that would benefit.

    Dunno if you've seen my setup, but I installed a backup cam on my minivan (high rear glass means you see nothing less than 4' tall), and it really comes in handy. Magellan has 7" portable GPSs, and they just came out with a backup cam that plugs right in to those. Simple kit, no splicing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited August 2011
    I did see that and thought it was pretty slick. Sure, a minivan is very hard to see out of, and often carries children, so that makes more sense.

    But if I were young again and had a family and a minivan, I'd probably order one with a stickshift!

    Could I even GET one anymore with a manual transmission? I'll have to look that up.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Only the Mazda5, and it's a bunch smaller than other vans. Call it a "vanlet".

    I tried and tried, but it just wasn't big enough. We wanted an 8 seater, and the Mazda5 only seats 6, even then only if they don't bring any luggage.

    You can manually move the gated shifter to 1-2-3-D4-D but I don't bother.
  • richardsonrichardson Member Posts: 92
    What's the purpose of gated shifters? We have one on our 2011 Sienna and I hate it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I guess to make sure you only shift 1 gear at a time, i.e. you can't slip and go up 2 gears when you wanted 1.

    I've found manual controls are slow to respond, and by then the auto gives you the gear you wanted anyway, at least most of the time.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    edited August 2011
    In my opinion, it is just another form of "dumbing down" and was done in an attempt to protect cars from ignorant drivers. In the past, the function of the gates was met by the button that had to be depressed in order to move between gears. One could slip the shifter between gears without the button (or for column mounted shifters, pulling the lever forward)when using the various drive gears, but had to take a more deliberate action in order to go to park or reverse, or down into 1st gear from the other drive gears, for that matter. But, once you pushed the button, you could go anywhere - meaning you could put the car in park from highway speeds if you were so inclined. :surprise:

    With the gated shifter, it would take a unique level of stupidity to perform that same feat, as it would require the absolute intention of doing it. Actually, the car might even refuse to let you do it now, I'm not sure, because I haven't driven an automatic in the years since gates became commonplace.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    I accidentally (when I was a teenager) shifted a buddies Prism into Reverse going forward at 45 MPH (auto). It immediately died and the car went off. After coming to a stop, I was deathly afraid I had just destroyed my friend's car, but it started right up and went on its merry way. It must of just stalled out and saved itself. Either that, or those toyota built Geo Prisms were so bulletproof, you could drive off a cliff 2,000 feet tall and still keep driving. :P
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    There are protections in place to prevent gears from engaging when they shouldn't. If you shift out of drive to Reverse or Park, it will basically go in to neutral, which I guess saved the power train in this case.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    There are protections in place to prevent gears from engaging when they shouldn't. If you shift out of drive to Reverse or Park,

    I would think so too, but it did make a nasty clunking sound and the engine did die immediately, which, if in neutral, the engine would keep running.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,735
    Possibly on newer vehicles, but it definitely wasn't always the case.

    A friend and I accidently did the same thing in a 1980 Chevette we were screwing around in. I was manually shifting the automatic and slammed it too far one time. Punched in reverse going around a sharp bend at about 40mph. The tranny very quickly and violently engaged reverse, spinning the tires backwards and stalling the engine. Same as the other story, the car was fine afterwards.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    edited September 2011
    A few weeks after buying our 1996 Subaru Outback (which was an auto), it started randomly stalling on us. I was driving through a parking lot one night (~5 mph?) and just started turning into a parking spot when it stalled. I went to throw it in neutral to restart, but totally missed it in my haste and put it in park. That was a nasty noise! I'm sure I did some damage, too, because it never did like to hold 'Park' on hills after that. Anything more than a couple degrees and it would let loose (occasionally).

    I was pretty embarrassed about it, but when you're used to manual transmissions, automatics can feel rather awkward from time to time. At least I had quit stomping the floor to the left of the brake pedal by that time! :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • chang06chang06 Member Posts: 1
    I was just wondering, what kind of problems can ou get if you use a relatively new car to teach someone to drive a manual transmission?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited September 2011
    Depends on the comptence of the teacher and the capabilities of the student. I tought my (then) fifteen year old son to operate a manual transmission in my relatively new 5-Speed Mazda3; that was 30,000 miles ago and while he was a bit harder on the clutch for his "miles in training" than I would have been, he picked it up pretty quickly and my car has suffered no ill affects.

    FWIW, now refuses to drive anyting with an automatic. I guess I "learned'em good". :P

    To answer your question, the typical damage metted out to the drive train by a student is to the clutch assembly, and while somewhat expensive to replace (figure a thousand dollars, plus or minus), it still wouldn't equal the price of having bought the car with an automatic in the first place.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited September 2011
    Probably the worst thing that could happen quickly enough that you couldn't intervene in time would be knocking a chip off a gear---which isn't easy to do (they're pretty hard) but possible. I would presume that excessive slippage of the clutch would come to your attention long before anyone could burn it up. And a rev limiter should protect the engine.

    Oh, I guess they could also over-rev the engine by downshifting into too low a gear at high speed---that would defeat the rev limiter. Exactly what such an over-rev would do to an engine is unclear---maybe nothing---hard to predict.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    edited September 2011
    the typical damage metted out to the drive train by a student is to the clutch assembly

    Do you think/find most students of manuals overuse the clutch (ride the clutch too much), or does most of the "excessive" damage/wear and tear come from them dropping the clutch too fast and hard?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    To be sure there's a little of both, I'm thinking 70% of the abuse comes from too much slippage, and 30% from droppage. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In my experience, they're never slow enough with the clutch, so it would be wear from too-quick clutch drops.
  • cdavidhesscdavidhess Member Posts: 26
    In December, I bought a 2011 Hyundai Elantra with an automatic transmission. It was the first automatic I had bought in over 20 years. It was a nice car, but I just missed the fun of a stick. Last month, I traded it in for a 2012 Elantra with a stick. Even though the EPA ratings for both cars are the same, my experience is that the Elantra with a stick gets 10% better gas mileage. My only complaint is that all the options (like Bluetooth) are not available with the stick version.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    My only complaint is that all the options (like Bluetooth) are not available with the stick version.

    Yeah, I don't really get that. That is one of the biggest factors in the Fiesta leading the pack for me in terms of a replacement car right now. I can option that car any way I want with either transmission type. Of course, one size bigger (Focus), and the same issue as with the Hyundai (and every other car out there) rears its ugly head: You want a stick? Here's a base model for you.... :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My brother had the same issue - wanted a small crossover with a stick, and options like the Sportage and Escape only come base/no options with that transmission.

    Subaru had the Forester Premium, which he bought, but even then not the Limited, and not the turbo, either.

    You can't get a Kia Rio upper level model with a stick either, though Hyundai offers the Accent that way. Strange, especially since Kia wants to position itself as sportier than its sibling brand.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    edited September 2011
    Last night I took a look at some Mazdas (2 and 5), just to get a sense of them in person. They didn't have any manuals on the lot in either model, so I didn't bother driving them.

    I will say, the Mazda5 makes incredible use of the room it has! I was impressed by that aspect, including the miniature captain's chairs in the second row. The seats were quite comfy - soft, but supportive. The cockpit was well laid out and comfortable, even though there are some protruding switches (like the volume control and speed control on the cruise) that I can see being annoying. Talk about plastic, though. Wow; that rig had it in droves! Finally, the styling details along the exterior sides of the vehicle were a nice touch.

    The major downside? The manual is only available on the base (sport) trim, although it does come well-equipped at that level compared to other base trims, and you can add a few features. You don't have the option of xenon HID lights, heated mirrors or seats, or a moonroof, though.

    On the Mazda2, it was impressive in terms of passenger (and driver) space. I did the ol' "sit behind yourself" test, and the rear seats have ample leg room - it is very comfortable in that respect. The red pinstriping on the seats were a nice touch, and the cockpit was very similar to the 5. Also, the manual is available with no trim or option restrictions, even though that list is fairly short for the 2.

    The major detractor in this car was the rear head room. I don't imagine that anyone over 5'6" could sit back there without stooping forward. I could sit erect if I compressed myself probably 4", and that was with my head tight against the ceiling. Just based on that, I doubt I would buy this car. :sick:

    All in all, though, it was fun and a worthwhile visit. My daughter (four in a couple weeks), had a great time! She kept wanting me to let her rummage through the CX-7 and CX-9 that were on the showroom floor. I told her that I wasn't interested in those cars, so we were not going to open them up & get them dirty. Her response? "But Dad, I'm interested in them!" :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cute...

    Did they have the SkyActiv-powered 2 yet? I'd wait for that, if you were interested.

    I test drove a 5, looked at it many times. Do they have a driver's arm rest yet? Early ones did not, not even a center console. I also wanted a 7 seater model, don't think they addressed that.

    Mazda deleted the Navi option on the 5 entirely. Very odd to go backwards in car tech like that. Not sure why.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Mazda deleted the Navi option on the 5 entirely. Very odd to go backwards in car tech like that. Not sure why.

    Because people like you are always harping on how factory navs are a waste of money and a $90 Garmin is better. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2011
    For any that have to or chose to use different cars, a portable and inexpensive GPS makes a lot of sense and on many levels also. I just recently forgot the portable GPS and a friend in the passenger seat used her Iphone to get us to the destinations.

    It wasn't that long ago car phones were about the size of two bricks AND permanently installed in a car.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I'm interested in a new Mazda3 5-Door with the SkyActiv-G engine and SkyActiv-M 6-Speed manual transmission for Mrs. Shipo, and a year or so from my I'll be very interested in pretty much the same car but with the SkyActiv-D engine in place of the gasser.

    Either way, the Mazda3 is another car with no option restrictions regardless of the transmission. :shades:
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    So why can't they just price the factory NAV at $200 rather than $1,000+ and be done with it?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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