The Future Of The Manual Transmission

robr2

Because every interior is different so there are engineering challenges and costs involved. It's also tied into the vehicle ECU, safety systems, et al.

The stand alone unit doesn't deal with any of that.

xwesx

AJ, they didn't have any SkyActiv models there.

I would definitely be interested in the Mazda3 with SkyActiv, though, since fuel economy is supposed to be very good. With the current model, I haven't seriously considered it because the fuel economy just isn't all that stellar. In addition, the 3 seems rather low-slung, and isn't a "small" car, necessarily, with overall dimensions (length/width) similar to my Forester. So, that says to me that while there is more space than a smaller model, it isn't necessarily useable space in terms of cargo, etc.

Maybe I'm selling it short. I haven't driven one, and that might change my mind.

ateixeira

I plead guilty!

The 3 has affordable Navi options, though.

ateixeira

A while ago Edmunds had a top 10 list of fuel efficient cars, to be fair it was before the whole slew of 40mpg-ers.

Any how, the Mazda3 2.0 was one of the few they actually found fun to drive. So I have high hopes for the SkyActiv models. They increase power, so it's not just about F/E.

shipo

I'm currently driving a 2.0 liter 2009 Mazda3 i TVE 5-Speed, and while it is no match for my old 1999 328i (which ten years earlier cost two and a half times the Mazda), it really is a ball to sling around on curvy roads.

After driving the competition back in late 2008, there was only one car which came close, the VW Rabbit (a virtual dead heat between the two per my personal metrics), a car which due to the model change-over was not available with a stick; winner Mazda3.

After nearly three years with the Mazda, I'm definitely looking forward to a 2013 Mazda3 5-Door SkyActiv-D as its replacement. Nothing else has both the interior room and utility coupled with the efficiency and fun to drive factor.

stever

That's one thing I liked about the Suzuki SX4 we looked at a couple of years ago. It had an integrated mount in the dash for mounting a Garmin.

And it has a 6 speed MT.

xwesx

Those are all important points for me, so I'll take a look at them when they're out. I'm shooting for a purchase timeline of probably 24 months now, so the new model would be an option.

I'm looking now because I think that if I go with a "new" used car, today's new cars would be what I'll want to find.

ateixeira

For me the big news was the 2.0l engine now being offered with the 5 door model. I don't really care for sedans.

shipo

"For me the big news was the 2.0l engine now being offered with the 5 door model."

Well no, not exactly. True, the SkyActiv-G engine is 2.0 liters, and true, it is available in both the 4-Door and the the 5-Door models, but the original 2.0 liter (like the one in my 2009 Mazda3) is still only available in the 4-Door Sedan model (at least south of the U.S. - Canadian border).

ateixeira

I should have specified SkyActiv 2.0l. Once that came out they may as well phase out the old one, as far as I'm concerned.

shipo

I've been following the SkyActiv thing for over a year now, and all statments from Mazda seem to indicate that, if anything, the gas guzzling 2.5 liter engine is more on the bubble than the decently performing and reasonably efficient 2.0 liter mill. That said, for the moment at least, all indications are that all three engines will be around for at least the next couple of years.

ateixeira

Is the 2.5l a Ford engine?

shipo

As far as I know, the existing 2.0, the 2.3 and the 2.5 are all Ford motors.

lemmer

I thought they were all engineered and built by Mazda and Ford licensed them for use of the architecture to make Duratec engines. I could be wrong though.

shipo

While I suspect Mazda built the engine in my car, I can tell you this; the engine has FoMoCo stamped and/or cast into all manner of engine surfaces.

andres3

the gas guzzling 2.5 liter engine is more on the bubble than the decently performing and reasonably efficient 2.0 liter mill.

What kind of mileage do you normally get city/highway with the 2.0/manual transmission combo in your Mazda 3?

What's the HP/Torque?

shipo

I typically get within a mile per gallon of 30 in a fairly even mix of city and highway. I've gotten a hair over 39 on a long highway trip where I kept it under 70 (very-VERY difficult for me to do), and the worst I've gotten when teaching my (then) 15-year old son to drive a stick was 26.

HP: 148
TQ: 135

elias

Ford and Mazda have designed engines jointly for decades - as early as the 1980s. Maybe they stopped since then, i dunno.
In the 1980s I heard some funny stories, such when they wind-tunnel tested a car without removing all the disguising-foam pieces on it to hide the body style due to some corporate-mistrust.
Can't recall if it was ford testing in a mazda wind tunnel or vice versa. I do recall that the result was that the car (plus styrofoam) caught fire, and burned down the entire wind-tunnel/lab.

Let's hear some more instances of automatic-vehicles traded-in for stickshifts.
I trade vehicles around 100k miles, and:
I once traded a 94 Z28 automatic for a 96 Z28 with stickshift.
Also traded a Benz E320 wagon with miles for a VW TDI wagon stickshift.
And traded a 2001 volvo V70 automatic for a 2005 pontiac GTO stickshift..
sold 1977 firebird 305 2bbl automatic to buy 1985 Z28 305 4bbl/stickshift
learned to drive on: 1965 beetle, stickshift of course!

and that is some of the HISTORY of the manual transmission

xwesx

I have never traded in a vehicle, but my history is thus:

I started with a 1969 Ford Econoline (auto) van, which was a purchase my dad made new. This was one of those teenage projects that went on for years and years, and still isn't finished, but I had it done enough to use it for several years as my sole transportation.

In 1997, I purchased a 1969 Chevy C20 (manual) pickup, which quickly became my favored drive, all but supplanting the van when being used for recreational purposes. For work, I generally drove the van just to keep miles off the truck (it had 29,231 when I acquired it). So, in a way, the truck replaced the van.

I then bought a 1996 Subaru Outback (auto), as my wife was a bit shaky with a manual and preferred not to have that as her primary vehicle. We had that car for 6.5 years, then I totaled it. It's replacement was a 2007 Subaru Outback... with a manual! Yes, my wife actually asked me to get a manual! :shades:

Sadly, we decided to sell it a short time later due to an unexpected pregnancy. Since then, we owned two autos - one was a minivan (no manual option) and the other was another Outback that I purchased intending to resell quickly, so I opted for an auto due to the larger market.

Now, all are manuals except my '69 van.

qbrozen

A little over a year ago, I traded an 01 v70 T5 auto for my 07 GTI stick.
Back in '06, I traded an '03 Lincoln LSv8 on a lease of a 6-speed Accord (big mistake).
I think that might be it.

kyfdx

.. I traded my 2002 CR-V automatic for a 2-year lease on a '98 Impreza sedan stick-shift..

After my 1970 Ford Galaxie auto died in 1976, I bought a new '77 Mustang Cobra II, with 302 V-8 and stick..

'95 Pathfinder auto lease was up in 1998.... next vehicle was a '98 CR-V stick-shift.

shipo

I traded our trusty old 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan (by definition an Automatic here in the States) for a 2009 Mazda3 i TVE 5-Speed. For three and a half years and nearly 125,000 miles I drove nothing but an automatic; never was I so happy to stir my own as when I took delivery of the Mazda.

stickguy

Probably late next year, we will ditch the minivan and get my wife something smaller. I have not given up on the idea of getting it with a stick.

I can probably convince her to do it, but the much bigger problem is likely finding something we like that offers a stick!

Almost impossible to find in a mid size or large compact wagon/CUV. Off the top of my head, you can get a Sube (forester, maybe a strippo outback?), Tiquan, and maybe a little Kia or Hyundai?

Wonder if either of the new Fords (C Maxx or Escape replacement) will offer one?

the other problem is wanting something with some features (moonroof, stuff like that). Not planning to do a base level no option car just to get a stick!

Most likely it will end up being an AT again. Probably will make her happier to.

shipo

How about a Mazda5 6-Speed?

andres3

You should have no issue finding a BMW 3-series Wagon or Audi A4 Avant with a stick.

xwesx

Shipo, that reminds me of when we bought the 2007 Outback. That was like a breath of fresh air aside from all of the quality control issues (squeaks & rattles) that drove me nuts and had me wishing I still had the '96.

One unintentional consequence of that move, however, was that my '69 Chevy was driven much less after that, because I used to get it out and drive it just for the pleasure of it. After that, I only drove it when I needed it. The poor old girl, anyway.

xwesx

I would recommend you take a look at that, too. The one issue I see is that it is only available with stick on the base trim (no moonroof, etc).

Both the Forester and Outback are offered in base and mid-level trims with the stick, which means both can be had with a moonroof. That said, The "moonroof" on the Outback is a joke (if you compare it to the Forester!).

stickguy

I forgot about the 5. Would actually be a perfect size IMO, but there are a few strikes against it:

It is a minivan (sliding doors), even though smaller!

no moonroof on the versions that come with a stick, and most important,

My wife and daughter thought it was ugly!

That is why I was hoping for the C-maxx. same basic car, but no sliding doors, and better looking!

Right now, if the $$ is nto there for a Volvo XC60 or BMW X3, the most likely option is actually the upcoming CRV, or a Hyundai Santa Fe (which I think will be redesigned by the end of 2012)

ateixeira

Yep, spy shots of the Santa Fe are already popping up:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/11/next-gen-hyundai-santa-fe-heads-for-the-deser- t/

It's next to a Ford Edge, to give you an idea of the scale (about the same size as the Edge).

robr2

Except that you won't be able to get a stick with the CRV.

How about the new Mazda CX5?

stickguy

well, the stick is more my dream than hers. And since it is her primary car, you can see where this is going!

stickguy

The other nice thing is that we won't be looking to buy until Xmas 2012, so there should be plenty of new things to see by then!

i can't wait to go out shopping. It has been a long time since I went into a dealership for any reason other than to check out something new (out of curiosity). Well, a few years back I kinda thought about getting something different, but I don't think it was really serious.

stickguy

I like the size of the current model. I don't, however, like the way they keep overstyling the wagons. Cuts usability, and horrible to see out the back. Just square off the sides and make big rear windows please!

But, I will look at these. 5 seats is fine now. Hopefully it drops a few pounds, and gets a 4 cyl with enough oomph to be able to pass on the 6 (assuming it is even offered). the 2.4l turbo? perfect!

ateixeira

I know what you mean, but the Kia Sorento sort of has the boxy customer covered. So the SF can be the swoopy one.

Check out the Kia, I think you can even get a base model with a manual, 4 banger only, though. Wonder if you can pair up the more powerful DI version of that engine with a manual?

elias

that 77 mustang cobra with a stickshift! yeah!
(Was it white with blue stripes by any chance? Pretty sure Farrah's had an automatic, on charlie's angels

kyfdx

Mine had green stripes.... bought it literally off the showroom floor..

4-speed and no A/C..

IIRC correctly, you could get green, blue, or red stripes.... or black car w/gold stripes.. at least in '77..

I think the blue w/white stripe model was a '76, only...

wasfan

With the understanding that 4 wheel drive is nice,

That FWD can be pretty good,

That sometimes the "when you need it" AWD option just doesn't kick in when you need it,

I've driven all those in manuals. My mantra has been that manuals are just that much better for driving in snow and ice....

What about the claims for the systems in the newer models like Acura MDX? Seems people find them pretty successful in the snow. Can that system work as well? I've always been more concerned about the necessity of staying on the brakes with automatics and it's not always a given that you can shift one and not have the revs cause you trouble- whereas I was taught how to match the revs/torque, whatever you want to call it, to avoid causing myself trouble shifting in snow and ice.

I'd very much like to stay with a manual but those options matched with certain necessities are becoming fewer and fewer. (I know I can get cetrain BMW's with manuals but even thinking about an Acura strains the credibility of budget)

Do those systems that shift power where needed to separate wheels where needed work as well as a manual in snow and ice?

stever

"A trusted source tells us the C7 Corvette will be offered with a 7-speed manual gearbox. Yes, seven."

shipo

Given the rather broad torque curve of the V8 in the Corvette I find myself wondering why GM would even bother developing a 7-Speed manual. Bragging rights maybe.

Personally my bet is that if one was to drag race three otherwise identical Corvettes, one each with a 5-Speed, 6-Speed, and 7-Speed, the 7-Speed model would be the slowest; not sure which of the remaining two would take the prize though.

ateixeira

Heck, I'm not convinced that 6 is better than 5. I skip 5th gear on my Miata and go straight to 6th.

stever

I prefer the 5 speed shift pattern, with 5th geared tall like an overdrive.

But at the rate my cars are running, I may have had my last manual. :sick:

robr2

"A trusted source tells us the C7 Corvette will be offered with a 7-speed manual gearbox. Yes, seven."

I presuming for fuel economy. It'll force a 1 to 4 and then a 4 to 7. :sick:

kyfdx

I drove a C6 Z06.. 505 HP...

Really, you could get by with just 2nd and 4th..

2nd and 5th, if you wanted to go over 140 mph....

elias

does skipping gears in a transmission damage the synchros or anything else? let's say a T56... ?

(is it any better if one double-clutches most of the time when skipping gears ?)

Mr_Shiftright

Nah, but on a car without much torque you might end up lugging the engine by skip-shifting, which, done to an extreme, could be harmful in the long run.

With 505 HP, I'd imagine one gear would work --called "ON".

I suppose if you were using your Corvette to deliver coal, or collect scrap iron, you might want 7 gears, sure.

shipo

Nah, I'd use it to tow a six-horse trailer complete with a half a dozen Friesians. :shades:

ateixeira

I wonder about picking the right gears when you move to 7 speeds.

Here's why...

With a 6 speed, you have 3 columns of gates. Reverse doesn't count because usually you have to push the shifter down, i.e. it's locked out. So 3 columns to choose from.

Move the shifter straight up and you usually get 3rd gear. Left and up is 1st, right and up is 5th.

With a 7 speed, you go straight up and get, what 3? 5? Right up gets 5 or 7, who knows.

I think the gate gets crowded and would lead to confusion. Wanna bet how many missed shifts owners will have? Probably tons.

shipo

I had initially wondered the same thing; then I remembered this was a Corvette we were talking about. Given that this car has had gated shifter controlled by a computer of some sorts for quite some time now, it stands to reason that the computer will dynamically open and close gates and change the weighting of the shifter to assure that you're going to hit the next gear that either you or the computer wants you to hit.

For my part I kinda doubt I'd be happy driving a car with such an arrangement; kinda defeats the purpose of having a stick in the first place. :P

ruking1

It will be interesting to see what they come up with. The most logical will be to put 7th gear on the upper right part of the (right) H pattern and reposition R (rev) to the left of 1st gear (upper left part of the H pattern). It will also be interesting to know how they regear 5th and how the over all gearing will change, if at all.

The T56/ now newer 6066 6 speed manual transmission (2001 Corvette Z06) has 5th/6th gear as double over drive. It is actually a no brainer to get 26 mpg in a Z06 at close to XXX speeds, even with the 10% lower gearing and A/C blasting.

ateixeira

Actually I was thinking Porsche 911. Let's see how each of them implement that.