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Found it:
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That's what I thought. The vast majority are never verified.
I love how before they had an AWD dyno, "additional drag is applied to the dyno to replicate normal operation of the AWD system". Not all AWD are created equal. So much room for error...
staff punches in coefficients that allow the dyno rolls to simulate real-world factors, such as wind and road friction
More room for error when it comes to tire choices and claimed aerodynamics.
For manual-transmission cars, there are standard EPA shift points
I'd love to hear the logic for how they choose - is it by rpm? or by speed? Do they account for engine size and vehicle weight when they decided this?
That's just the first page of four pages, too.
So gearing would be the primary factor.
The Miata comes in MT5, MT6, and 6EAT flavors. The auto wins only on the highway, and guess which one is geared a lot taller?
Different engine tuning also, less power but more low-end torque for the slushbox.
We might all like to think so but the facts are exactly the opposite.
The electronic "brain" never needs sleep, is never lazy, and is never distracted from the task at hand, not even byt that cute gal in the Corvette.
Only when dealing with unknown factors, non-historical knowledge.
.If you are talking about EPA numbers, that would be easy. THe HWY part of the test is a short cycle and involves acceleration and deceleration. THose changes would have the AT constantly unlocking the torque converter and inducing viscous energy loss. The test is not measured by holding a constant 55 or 60 mph.
The electronic "brain" never needs sleep, is never lazy, and is never distracted from the task at hand
So I follow your advice and let the ECU do the thinking, LOL.
You want to have your cake and eat it. Should we let the genius computer shift for us, or shift manually, which is it?
move the shifter to 1st until you cross that 5th bump
That wouldn't work, revs would be too high in 1st.
So now you're saying I need to manually compensate for the lazy electronic brain and slow trans that also can't see forward like a human can?
Plus you overlooked that it makes the wrong decision to choose 4th at 25mph in the first place.
So in other words all public roads 100% of the time.
Pretty much, yep.
As a general rule, I'm throwing out the electronic device as the decision-making king. Anyone who's ever tried an online dating "your best match" type service can attest to that.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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Not necessarily.
With a modern day sick shift car the engine ECU has the option, if enough acceleration or engine loading is called for, of moving the A/F mixture control from stociometric to enriched, ~12:1 mode. With an automatic the engine/transaxle controlling ECU would have the same option, only it would decide, depending on a wide range of parametrics, to either unlock the torque converter OR enrich the mixture, or maybe even both, depending on which would return the best FE.
"Guy eating a burrito" is a non-historical factor......
Off-thread just a bit.
I tried to say that the electronic brain exceeds the decision making ability, FAR exceeds, when operating within its relm of "knowledge".
Even ABS, as smart as it is, doesn't know when the road is gravel.
totally fabricating an equation here:
if speed <x and rpm <y and factor z exist, process action q.
Yes, the electronic brain will process this pre-programmed equation faster than a human mind. That doesn't mean it is right for the situation; it means it's what it's designed to do. It is processing a pre-programmed function.
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
No, seriously:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f169148/9#MSG9
Some excerpts:
infamous Toyota/Lexus 1-2 second transaxle downshift delay/hesitation
sub-standard sized positive displacement gear type ATF pump
premature transaxle failures
DBW is being used to delay the onset of engine torque in response to foot pressure on the gas pedal until the downshift, starved for adequate ATF pressure, can be fully completed with the engine at or nearly idling
I guess the ECU being quick and smart doesn't really matter when the transmission itself cannot complete a gear change within a reasonable amount of time.
Regardless of how exhausted I am, what I'm thinking about, what I'm looking at, who or whom I talking with/to, what's on the radio, or any of hundreds of other potential distractions, my gears get shifted on-time-every-time (varying of course by driving conditions and intent); more or less automatically.
I can only assume that folks like wwest are not proficient in driving a stick shift and need to think about the next gear change like "okay, the engine is nearing 3,500 RPMs so maybe I should shift, but oh gee, maybe I should stay in the current gear a little longer for some more acceleration; oops!, too late, I need to take a corner, now, should I downshift one gear, or maybe two, or should I throw it into neutral and coast through the turn..." For drivers like this, I have no doubt they would be better served by driving a car with only two pedals under the dash.
While I don't know this for a fact, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of individuals accomplished in operating a vehicle equipped with a manual transmission shift more-or-less automatically, like I do, and that precious few (hopefully only one) shift with wwest’s deliberative methodology.
Funny thing is that I see posts of folks getting in the low 40s MPG on the highway with their manual and the best I've ever got was right at 40mpg highway doing about a constant 65mph. I have a theory about MPG that I'll throw out there:
Every car has an high MPG they can achieve, not based on the driver, condition, gas, etc, but based on the actual car itself. So if you go two cars with the same gas and put them on the highway on cruise at 60mph in 5th gear for 100 miles, they would use a different amount of gas based on the slight mechanical differences with in the car's components.
For example, there are given tolerances for all the mechanical componts...pistons, gears, rings, alternators, belts, waterpumps, fuelpumps, etc. The car with the components most precisely manufactured will get the best MPG and probably have the most long term reliabilty. Maybe the water pump works, but is working harder than it should due to friction or wear. This can decrease MPG. Or maybe some brushes on the alternator are having issues, which cause the additional drag on the engine...hence worse MPG. Or the brake caliburs aren't completly releasing. Or there's a tiny amount of friction on other components, not enough to cause major problems, but enough to affect the MPG. I think this is why you have folks reporting in wose than expected MPG, or why some folks get better than expected MPG for the same basic conditions. The same reason why identical engines, water pumps, AC compressors will fail at different times...because in reality they're not identical.
Another theory I have is that cars getting the best MPG will last the longest. For example, if you're the guy getting lousy MPG with a Honda Fit even though you're careful how you drive, that means there's some internal mechanical issues with the car that will eventually create the need for some sort of repair, while if you get stellar MPG consistently, chances are you'll have less repairs in the future, so if I had a car getting lousy MPG for what it should get, then I'd unload that car as soon as possible.
With a manual you can choose your own mode, I suppose. Hyper miler, sporty, whatever.
But why? If the gearing ratio is higher and the torque converter is locked?
"..never-EVER seems..."
Seems...REALLY...??
I will willingly admit that on the Autobahn I often found myself in 5th gear cruising merrily along, a glance at the tach and..Oops..upshift. Engine BEHIND me.
Coming off the track at Daytona someone asked how fast I had gone...I had to answer that I really didn't know, never took the time to look at the speedo or tach, too busy going fast and then slowing for the turns, going fast....
"..not proficient..."
Well, maybe, back in the fifties I could never get the hang of which gear to be in with the Ford Ferguson, but with the John Deere, Farmall, and Allis Chamlers I though I did okay. Then there was the summer I drove a dump truck in MT...damn it was hard to downshift a non-synchro, going down a steep grade with a full load.
I LOVE constant speed props.
Running at highway posted speed +7%, I average 36 with the manual and 34+ with the auto.
1) They weigh more
2) Even with the torque converter locked, there are still fluid pumps and such which rob power from the driven wheels
3) Due to the layout of the planetary gear sets they are not as mechanically efficient as the gear sets in a manual gearbox.
GM product..?
There are times when one really wouldn't miss a manual, even though I still think having one makes for a more engaging drive. For example, your "clunky" Chevy pickup (being the ancient beast it is at *gasp* ~13 years old!) would be more engaging with a manual, but it would also be a PITA... ergo, you wouldn't miss it. Dial that Chevy back by 30 years and you have my pickup, with a manual, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't think I would call it a pain, but it certainly is more work to drive it than any modern equivalent could be.
Full-size vans are another one - I don't miss not having a manual in one of those. Actually, with my van (another 40-year-old gem!), I don't know if I even *could* drive it with a manual, as it is so much work to drive, it would be challenging to take one hand off the wheel just to shift gears. :P
I always go for the vehicle's function first, but if there is a manual transmission as an option in the group, those vehicles will make the top of the stack by default. In this day and age, for example, if I was looking for a mini-van (no, not a mini mini-van like a Mazda5), I would have to write a manual off altogether, which I have done before (and it was one of those vehicles where you don't really miss the manual, even if I still would prefer it).
Plus, this truck happened to be the one that was priced at $5K as a repo. You take those as they come.
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
1. weather conditions in the car's area of residence
2. owner exaggerating :P
3. Basing reports on the car's computer rather than the odometer and a logbook.
So I would say zip code and a log book can account for a lot of differences.
Hahaha; yes, you do! I was lucky with my truck, and it just happened to be a 4-speed Muncie. I would have taken it either way.
I actually prefer my Forester's manual simply because I do use if for towing now and again! On small cars, the manual transmissions can handle more drag without external coolers as compared to the automatic; that becomes important with hauling long distances.
No.
I am saying that's what it will TRY to do.
In practice, the infuriated owner senses hesitation and adds more throttle input, more than necessary. The transmission hunts, hesitates, then BOOM you get more acceleration than you wanted.
The result causes global warming. OK I'm exaggerating, a little.
How do you accomplish the priorities you state absent being in the correct gear, ALWAYS.
Also, the driver has more inputs - they can see what's coming up ahead, a big uphill, a speed bump, a red light. The trans doesn't get these inputs.
Hence the real-world performance of an automatic isn't as good, no matter how it's programmed.
Do we, really...?
It seems to me that that the majority of the time I drive my 6 speed I'm more interested, by default, in FE than otherwise. Yes, there are times I like to "get on it", but those are few and far between in comparison. Driving my Ranger PU, 2.3L stick shift. Had I bought it new it wouldn't be a stick.
1. a big uphill....
What does a stick shift driver do in that event...? Downshift...? The automatic will do the same thing, only a bit later, and arguably maybe with better timing.
Oh, almost forgot, truck, RV...big uphill...disable OD.
2. speed bump.
With a stick shift you MUST downshift at some point, with an automatic you simply lift then gas pedal.
3. a red light.
So you see the red light, or amber, what do you do other than disengage the clutch, and then the apply the brakes...? With the automatic you lift the gas pedal, the engine/transmission goes into full fuel cut and then sequentially downshifts as/if required.
Absolutely. As I approach a curve, with an autotragic can't see, I downshift before the turn, so I'm ready to accelerate out of it.
The autobox will wait until after the turn, hesitate a little, then give me the gear I want.
You already noted the delayed shift when you start going up a hill.
I don't have to downshift for a speed bump. On my road I can stay in 3rd, let off the gas, engine compression will slow me down, then just get back on the gas.
As mentioned earlier, the auto goes from 3rd to 4th, then hesitates, and eventually gives me too many revs and 2nd. If I wait a while and use less throttle it'll just shift to 3rd. A lot of unnecessary hunting around for the right gear.
And sorry but nobody manually shifts a minivan with a gated shifter. Your suggestion to put it in "1" was full of fail - I would get way too many RPMs.
Well, sure they do, juice. Didn't you get that memo? Get with the times, man! :P
To this day you won't find many 7+ seaters that can match that time, but I thought it was funny that they even cared.
I want reserve power for passing and carrying loads, not for 0-60. LOL
For kicks, check it out, it only wastes 7 seconds of your life to watch it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ-tcgwhKqM
Speaking of which...
I90 through poorly populated Idaho has a 75 MPH stretch through a mountainous region with lots of sweeping curves. I often set my CC to 80ish but get a little uncomfortable not being in control as I approach what is at that speed (no traffic, enter low, exit high) a fairly tight curve.
So I step lightly/quickly on/off the brake to kill the CC throughout the curve and then re-engage CC at the exit. Now with DBW I have often thought it would be a better CC design to simply let me assume control of speed if I depress the accelerator pedal to the level, range, that would otherwise attain a roadspeed within say 10MPH of the CC setting. Lift off the gas pedal, CC automatically "resumes".
Oh, no issue of the need to downshift from 6th as long as there is no additional traffic to be contended with.
The folks that bought that van (I sold it with 215K on it) still have it and use it daily. I tried to get the odo reading out of them a couple months ago when I spotted it at a light, but the light was green and we started moving before they could relay the number.
I had a coworker a few years back whose family had a second gen Chrysler van with a manual transmission! I rode in it a few times, and that just seemed odd to me, but a nice novelty just the same.
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