The Future Of The Manual Transmission

robr2

Not at all practical; trying to marry a hybrid drive train with a manual transmission is pretty much a worthless exercise. Honda tried it and it was a complete failure.

How was it a complete failure?? I didn't think the Honda had paired a manual and hybrid until the CRZ and that's designed to be a performer - not a sipper.

shipo

Honda used a 5-speed manual transmission on the Insight (sp?) model eight or nine years ago. The manager I reported to at the time had one, and while it did return excellent fuel economy (it should have, the car was diabolically tiny), it was not at all pleasant to drive and was quite problematic. She finally dumped it in 2004 for a Jetta TDI (which she still has).

wwest

"..you'll see indications..."

Only "indications"....??

That statement is a bit "soft" for you...

Fully cut the fuel with a "stick" shift, the driver suddenly, fully asynchronously, disengages the clutch....

Now you need to restart the stalled engine.

But again...

With an automatic the transmission can be "continuously" downshifted as road speed declines thereby keeping the engine turning even with FULL fuel cut...

How could that possibly work with a stick shift....?

Mr_Shiftright

One reason (not the only one of course) I made sure to get a MINI with a 6-speed manual instead of the CVT was when I looked up the replacement cost for the CVT ---$6500 !!! :surprise:

wwest

"...the difference...2,200....2,500..virtually immeasureable.."

So I can disable the OD in my '01 F/awd RX and still get 22MPG hwy at 70MPH...??

ruking1

In the VW TDI community parts and labor for a clutch R/R is app 600-800. I have watched any number of these procedures.

I personally am not anywhere close to needing one @ 167,000 miles.

Mr_Shiftright

Seems too cheap to me. Labor is 6.7 hours + a clutch pack and pressure plate. This has to be over $1000 bucks, I mean, if you want to be thorough about it.

I myself don't like to go IN THERE twice on a FWD car. :sick: So if I had a TDI, I'd replace everything in there within a square mile. clutch, pressure plate, throw-out, pilot bushing, maybe clutch fork pivot/bushing, flush out hydraulic fluid, rebuild clutch slave, and I'd take a real good look at the flywheel, because I hate clutch chatter.

MINI clutch, full job, maybe $2200, because of 12 hours labor and dual-mass flywheel, which is a factory defect from the get-go and needs replacing.

Still, it's not $6,500 bucks.

ruking1

Includes full parts @ 300, 325 or so.

ateixeira

For the moment CVT's are not ROBUST enough to handle more than 200HP, inexpensive ones anyway

What about the V6 Altima CVT? They've been around for a while, too.

qbrozen

FYI, the manual Insight returned FAR better mileage than the automatic, per the government website. 10 mpg highway and 6 combined, as a matter of fact.

shipo

"Fully cut the fuel with a "stick" shift, the driver suddenly, fully asynchronously, disengages the clutch....

Now you need to restart the stalled engine."

You either failed physics or you're referring to folks who downshift slower than molasses in January. Ever hear of angular kinetic energy? Nope, didn't think so. The fact is the rotational mass of the engine, flywheel and clutch has more than enough angular kinetic energy to keep the engine rotating for the duration of the shift without so much as a molecule of fuel being injected into the engine.

Like I said earlier, time for you to deal with it and move on.

ateixeira

A very common statement made by the CVT crowd. The fallacy with that statement is that given the broad power and torque curves of today's engines, the difference between pushing a car along at say 65 at say 2,200 RPMs versus say 2,500 RPMs is virtually immeasurable

Are there broad power bands, though? With more turbos and smaller displacement engines, I'm not sure that's true any more.

Plus, we should look at RPM drop between shifts. It's much more than just a 2500 to 2000 drop.

shipo

"FYI, the manual Insight returned FAR better mileage than the automatic, per the government website. 10 mpg highway and 6 combined, as a matter of fact."

I believe it; that however is small consolation for the poor souls still behind the wheel of one (or waiting for one to get fixed yet again).

bobw3

For example, in my area diesel cost about $4.00 while RUG is $3.50, so if you've got a Prius and TDI both getting 45MPG and drive 1000 miles in each = $88.89 for the diesel and $77.78 for RUG to drive the same 1000 miles. So to pay the same $77.78 in diesel, you'd need to get 51.5MPG for the diesel to go that 1000 miles. Or the diesel getting 45MPG is equal to a gas car getting 39.5MPG.

That's what I mean as far as diesel costing more per mile than regular gas. If you're getting 45mpg in a diesel, because of the extra cost in the cost of diesel fuel that's the same as getting 39.5mpg in a gas car. So when you see any MPG ratings on diesels, you need to factor in the cost of the gas.

ateixeira

The truth is more like the competitor for the Jetta/Passat are the Camry Hybrid

I don't buy that argument, and I've seen a lot of VW guys pitch it.

Passat is slightly smaller than Camry, forget the Jetta.

Jetta competes with the Civic, Corolla, etc. Prius is a hatch so it's hard to compare, but I'm sure it has more interior room than a Jetta sedan but less than a Jetta wagon.

I've even VW guys talk about how a Polo TDI beats a Prius, ridiculous. Now that's comparing a Sub-Compact with a Mid-sizer, 2 size classes above. We may as well compare a Prius to a Touareg TDI, then.

I never get why there is such hatred of the Prius. I don't even like them, but I'm shocked at the lengths people will take to criticize them.

Shocked!

robr2

Honda used a 5-speed manual transmission on the Insight (sp?) model eight or nine years ago. The manager I reported to at the time had one, and while it did return excellent fuel economy (it should have, the car was diabolically tiny), it was not at all pleasant to drive and was quite problematic. She finally dumped it in 2004 for a Jetta TDI (which she still has).

So a focus group of one deems it a failure?

qbrozen

Golf TDI vs Prius works for me.

Jetta vs Corolla doesn't, however. I'm not sure about overall size, but I can tell you for a fact that the interior room in the Jetta is far far better. I don't even fit in a new Corolla (buddy at work just bought one and I tried), whereas I can actually get quite comfortable in a Jetta.

shipo

"Are there broad power bands, though? With more turbos and smaller displacement engines, I'm not sure that's true any more."

Have you taken a look at a VW/Audi 2.0T torque curve recently? Full torque develops at something like 1,800 RPMs before the curve flattens well into the 4,000 RPM range.

ruking1

Then I think you misread my post if you think I do hate the Prius. The Jetta is no where close to a Civic or Corolla. I do in fact own an 04 Civic along side the Jetta. So whether you buy the "argument" is really immaterial. I am actually comparing real life. Indeed if the Prius were more like 13-15k (3.5% to 19.3% more) I would probably have one now instead of the Civic.

shipo

"So a focus group of one deems it a failure?"

Based upon the numerous reports I read "back in the day", her car was quite typical of the breed.

ateixeira

diesel cost about $4.00 while RUG is $3.50, so if you've got a Prius and TDI both getting 45MPG and drive 1000 miles in each = $88.89 for the diesel and $77.78 for RUG to drive the same 1000 miles

Plus the Prius actually gets higher MPG - not a lot, but it compounds the advantage. I think CR got 44 in the Prius and 38 (IIRC) in the TDI.

I prefer manuals, and I'd prefer a diesel over a hybrid for driving enjoyment purposes, but let's not lie to ourselves - fuel costs for a Prius are much lower than for a TDI.

1000 miles / 44mpg = 22.7 gallons at $3.584 AAA national avg = $81.45

1000 miles / 38mpg = 26.3 gallons at $3.893 AAA national avg = $102.45

Both are good, but the Prius wins by a wide margin.

EDIT: CR on-line had two Jetta TDIs at 33mpg and 36mpg overall, but I won't be cruel and re-do the numbers and increase the height of that "Prius pedestal". Even leaving that generous 38mpg it gets crushed, end of story.

PS My personal preference would still be a diesel, by the way, yes I would pay more for one vs. a hybrid, but let's not kid ourselves you will spend more on fuel, period.

ateixeira

Golf TDI vs Prius works for me

Works for me, too, and it was the Golf that got the 38mpg I mentioned in my previous post.

So figure on spending about 26% more on fuel in a Golf TDI.

bobw3

This really isn't a Prius vs TDI forum, so my last statement on this subject are that both are comparable cars in terms of size and price. If you drive mostly highway, like more fun in your driving, enjoy and can optimize a manual transmission, and don't mind spotty reliability, then the TDI could be for you. However, if you drive mixed hwy/city a lot, don't want to mess with a manual, and don't want to worry so much about trips to the mechanic, the Prius with it's CVT may be the better pick.

But I think with the new CAFE standards, continued strict emission controls and continued extra cost for diesel, hybrids mated to CVTs are going to be growing quicker than diesels with manual transmissions.

ateixeira

Have you taken a look at a VW/Audi 2.0T torque curve recently?

Good question, let's look...but not an OEM-claim massaged and smoothed one, a REAL one:

http://www.034motorsport.com/images/Laszlo/B8_A4/034_B8_HFC_Gains.jpg

Blue XXXs show the stock curve, and you definitely see a peak between 3500 to 4200 or so.

So you would need tight ratios in the DSG so that a shift from 4200 did not dip below 3500, but I doubt that's the case.

CVT could keep it at the 3600 peak the whole time. DSG would likely dip to that 3200 point, is my guess, so you would enjoy 255 lb-ft instead of 281 lb-ft.

Still adequate, but not maximized like a CVT could be tuned for.

To bring this back on topic - this is where a close-ratio 6 speed manual has an advantage over a 5 speed manual.

ateixeira

Perhaps I did, but the fact is that the Prius does, eventually, reach a break-even point even compared to a Corolla S:

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/will-a-hybrid-save-me-money-in-the-lo- ng-run4.htm

So you pay more now, but you do eventually get a return on that investment. Some where between 80 and 100k miles depending upon the price of gas.

bobw3

http://www.cars.com/go/compare/trimCompare.jsp?acodes=USC00TOC161B0,USC00VWC034C- 0

2010 tdi wagon vs prius

Price is about the same, passenger volume slightly higher for the prius, legroom, hiproom, etc., cargo volume greater for TDI.

Seems a fair comparison to me...

bobw3

Prius vs Corolla...not a good comparison.

21cuft of trunk space in the Prius and more rear seat leg room as compared to the Corolla. For me and my family of 4, the Corolla was way to small.

ruking1

As you confirm, apples to oranges comparisons are the norm.

Since I needed the 2004 Prius/2004Civic for a purposeful commute 1 to 3 commuters)., the Civic has proven to be the better choice over the Prius. I have no doubt we could have probably gotten 50 mpg in the Prius vs the 38-42 mpg in the Civic. The Prius for that year would be close to 2 x higher in price. The Civic is @ 127,000 miles and will sell on the open market for app $2600 less than paid, new. Needless to say resale value remains very good.

ateixeira

I'm surprised the Prius' wheelbase is nearly 5" longer plus it has more front and rear legroom.

Is that wagon still based on the previous Jetta, though?

No surprise the wagon wins on cargo space.

The Golf TDI comparison may be closer in that regard.

bobw3

apples to oranges with respect to comparing USA vs Europe vs Asian models is true...You've got to at least compare what a person can buy here.

ruking1

Ah no, stay with me here, the reference was to what can be bought in the US markets.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm still not seeing it with my California goggles I guess---- $800 - $325 for parts leave $475 for 6.7 hours labor---so I guess you're in a part of the country with very low labor rates. In California you couldn't touch this job for under $1250 if you went to a qualified VW indie shop. .

ruking1

There are truly only a handful of shops I would trust with something like this.

andres3

VW probably would not want to use it because it might affect their "image" as a "driver's car." Toyota doesn't care if people think that the Prius is an "appliance" car...just that it gets high MPG.

Wrong. Even Audi uses CVT technology in the A4. It is no better that Nissan's in my experience having had both as rentals at some point. It is simply cheaper than a true 6 speed automatic, and especially cheaper than a dual clutch version. I don't see CVT outperforming DSG, wish there was an example with the same car though.

volkov

People are so often surprised by the passenger room of the Prius. I don't know why that is, maybe the assumption that a high mileage vehicle must be a sub-compact. We bought a Prius last year and considered Fusion and Jetta wagon amongst others along the way. The interior of the Prius, while spartan, is extremely generous and clearly better than Jetta or Fusion, just ask my kids. For anyone seeking that amount of rear seat room, the Carolla and Civic have no business in the same discussion.

andres3

I made sure to get a MINI with a 6-speed manual instead of the CVT was when I looked up the replacement cost for the CVT ---$6500 !!!

Did you look up the replacement cost for the 6 speed manual to find the true delta?

woops, nevermind, read it later, 2,200. so about 4K more for CVT! wow. What's the lifespan on CVT's being reported as typically?

andres3

short, I've read numerous allegations suggesting the EPA testing is biased in favor of Gasoline fueled cars with Automatic transmissions.

I can see the EPA being biased against diesels if they don't like diesel fuel being used, but what in the world would be a motivation for being biased against manuals? After all, most automatics come with manual mode nowadays :P

However, only in a DSG do you really have truer control of that manual mode, but even that is limited to some degree (no bouncing off red line allowed, no stalling the engine allowed).

Mr_Shiftright

Apparently the lifespan of the CVTs on first generation MINI IIs (2002-2006) is about that of a 1st lieutenant in the trenches of WW I.

A remanufactured 6 speed manual transmission with differential is about $3400 list price.

I haven't heard of any problems with the 6 speed manuals however, other than that they seem a bit clunky to me.

andres3

So you would need tight ratios in the DSG so that a shift from 4200 did not dip below 3500, but I doubt that's the case.

I haven't looked closely enough but I bet 700 RPM's is about right for the 6 speed DSG in my Audi A3. The ratios are VERY tight and close. Too close and tight in my opinion, for CA where you have many straight and flat roads, but ideal when you are in mountainous twisties. I think 5th and 6th are only like 500 RPM apart.

ruking1

I think for sure that EVERYONE has different wants, needs, etc. Sure, IF one commutes with 4 to 5 in a Prius (not likely as the overwhelming majority of commute Prius'es I see are normally single). THEN bigger (size) matters. However if one does commute with 5 people then the more likely is mpg fuel mileage will suffer (much less than 50 mpg. So for example, I knew that for the MAJORITY of time and probably more importantly percentage miles, the commuters would be max 4. The Civic has satisfactory rear seat room. So the configuration is in a sweet spot. 5 I think would approach suffering. With more than two commuters (2 being the staple) the fuel mileage is nearer 38 mpg. I will not address the surveys that say that 45% of American adults (aka commuters) are obese to morbidly so.

Mr_Shiftright

When I first drove a Prius, some 2000 miles (deliver to a friend) it suddenly occurred to me that there was something very very familiar about the car---then it hit me----it was like driving a Citroen DS21 "automatique" !!

Kind of floaty, poofy, quiet, mom's couch kinda-cozy feeling. It wasn't at all unpleasant, and a very comfortable car for a long journey.

But sporty? fun? exhilarating? Life affirming?

Er.....no.

AVG. mpg was 47.

Same exact trip in fun, sporty, exhilarating, life-affirming MINI Cooper the following year----AVG MPG was 33

ruking1

I have not gone 2000 miles in a Citroen, so I will have to take your word for it. Not a thing wrong with 47 mpg.

Over 2M folks (Prius buyers) are just fine with its ride. I think if I HAD to have a Prius, I would do my best to overlook its RIDE.

For me, I like the combination of (VW's Jetta TDI's) massive torque (155# ft vs 100 or so) and I would suppose I would be fine with 59 mpg @ 75 mph, but I'd be fighting road hypnosis.

ateixeira

EPA calls it a mid-size, but I thought that was because of the hatch design. With all that leg room I guess the cabin also has more space than people expect.

ateixeira

I haven't looked closely enough but I bet 700 RPM's is about right for the 6 speed DSG in my Audi A3. The ratios are VERY tight and close

Are you sure you're not talking about my Miata? It's exactly the same way. I usually skip 5th and go straight to 6th!

Some thing has gotta give, though, and in the Miata it's RPMs at high speeds. I'm close to 3000rpm just past 60, at higher speeds it's screaming down the road at 4000rpm at times. WAAAAY to high. For 2009 they made 6th slightly taller, but only slightly. It's still too short-geared for high speed cruising.

I guess it depends on the application, but a CVT can have a wide range, from the lowest to the highest gear, and avoid this. A good example are some Subarus - at 80mph they run around at 2000rpm, so better highway mileage than my Miata in a car twice the size.

I can't even tell you the RPM in my Miata at 80mph because I think I'd lose my hearing.

ruking1

Indeed objective measures are just that. But really with one commuter how much of that does one really need? I guess it is the same logic as one getting a pick up truck.?

ateixeira

Now *that* is a fair assessment. Not for me, but it still has its appeal, to a certain segment.

I test drove one when the local Whole Foods had a loaner available (perfect product placement), and I liked it OK. In that city environment handling never came in to play, and the electric motor felt torquey off the line.

In the right context it makes sense, even if it's not my cup of tea, either.

Some comic relief this thread could use right now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UFc1pr2yUU

It's gettin' real in the Whole Foods Parking Lot..

"Pay my 80 bucks for 6 things" make me LOL.

wwest

Agreed, but how does the stick driver know, as precisely as would the automatic's ECU, when to "next" downshift in order to keep the engine RPM above stall speed as roadspeed declines during a continuing coastdown..?

My '88 Porsche has an "upshift" signal/indicator (programmed for maximum FE), which most of the time I simply ignore.

wwest

"..modivation for being biased.."

Real world testing, drivers are instructed to be LAZY, drive the stick in the way most driver's would, NOT in a way to "artificially" improve FE.

shipo

"Agreed, but how does the stick driver know, as precisely as would the automatic's ECU, when to "next" downshift in order to keep the engine RPM above stall speed as roadspeed declines during a continuing coastdown..?"

I suppose in theory if the operator of the vehicle waits until the RPMs are under some arbritrary number (800 RPMs plus or minus 200 depending on the engine and cylinder count?) and they shift real slowly, it is possible for the ECU to be called upon to use some fuel to keep the engine running. That said, even the worst stick driver I've ever encountered wouldn't wait that long before downshifting.

Long story short, in the real world I seriously doubt the off throttle fuel cut-off mode is ever interrupted during a downshift.

bobw3

Weight make a difference in MPG for any car, but with our family of 4 and luggage, I normally get in the low 50's MPG with my '06 Prius on mostly highway drives.