Mystery car pix

kyfdx

Sorry.. I have a crappy monitor here at work..

Carry on!!

andys120

You're close. the dash belongs to a '65 Riviera Gran Sport I have no idea if those are A/C vents above the radio.

boomchek

GM had a funny way of hiding dash vents in their cars. I remember from the 89 Chevy Caprice that my parents has, there were only 2 tiny ones in the middle of the dash and what looked to be vents on the two far ends of the dashboard were actually two plastic "vent looking" covers. :sick: ">

jbollt

If you scroll down on the eBay listing, you can see the A/C vents on either side of the dash, and in the middle, under the radio.

1965 Riviera on eBay

andys120

toomanyfumes

Beautiful Riv, but 55 grand!!

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmmm....HMMMMMMM....is that what they call a Dove GTR4 or something like that?

british_rover

I am guessing the 007 is a hint.

andys120

is that what they call a Dove GTR4 or something like that?

Dang, I was hoping to slip that one by youse.

Dove was a Triumph distributor who commissioned Harrington Coachworks to put a permanent top on the TR-4 roadster,
55 were made between 1961-65.

It looks pretty awkward but there are few roadsters that could have benefitted more from a tin top than the TR-4/4A
with it's flimsy ragtop and Flexible Flyer chassis.

(I should know, I owned one).

PS- Yes it's the same Harrington that fashioned the contemporary Sunbeam Alpine Harrington LeMans.

Mr_Shiftright

I've seen both a dove and a Harrington. Neither one floats my boat but some people really like 'em. Neither one did as good a job as MG did with the MGB GT hatchback.

chuck1959

When my grandfather bought a brand new '65 LeSabre there were not any A/C equiped LeSabre's on the lot. He had to special order it and it took almost 2 months to get.

karsick

Hmmm...

Definitely the spiritual ancestor to the late-90's BMW M-Coupe.

So many hate that shape, but I LOVE how the fixed roof transforms the so-so roadster, visually, functionally & structurally.

andys120

I agree Shifty, MG did a much better job with the BGT, the
tin-top version actually looks better than the roadster, something you can't say about the Harrington conversions.

andre1969

Could be, or it could be a '68 or '68 ,
maybe Andre can tell.

Sorry, I don't check into this forum as often as I should. It's hard to tell because of the resolution, but I think that red 'vert might be a '67 Bonneville. The taillights on the Bonneville were wider than the Catalina, and stretched in a bit further toward the center. And on the '68 Pontiacs, the outer part of the taillights extended further down, cutting into the shape of the bumper, than the '67.

'67 Catalinas have the lettering for "Catalina" on the front fender aft of the wheel, while "Bonneville" had its name spelled out on the rear quarter. Bonnevilles also had fender skirts standard, IIRC.

Mr_Shiftright

As far as I can determine, the MGB GT was the world's first true "hatchback" as we know it today. So not only a pretty design, but an innovative one. Can't ask for more than that.

kyfdx

I was always partial to the Triumph GT6..

Mr_Shiftright

To truly know a GT6, one must drive it, live with it, own it...and then you'll change your tune I bet, especially if you do a comparo to an MGB GT. :P The GT6 is so utterly cheesy, it's depressing. The MG feels like a Bentley Arnage in comparative build quality.

But if you are under 5'9", and can live with pieces falling off, the GT6 is a great "starter car" for initiation into the Sacred Way of the British Car.

stever

My sister had a MGB GT for a year or two. She loved it. Of course the radiator fell off one day. At ~60 mph.... She had that touch with most of her cars.

She's had enough cars to qualify for Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (she wrecked most of them). The MG was probably her favorite. She was out of the house by then and I never got to drive it.

They look good with canoes on top of them too.

kyfdx

The GT6 was built on the Spitfire chassis, right? I guess it would be comparable to the Midget, rather than the MGB..

I just meant in the looks department.. My friend let me drive his MGA, and I can barely get my size 10 feet into the footwell, and then hitting only one pedal at a time is a chore.. No MG/Triumphs for me..

andys120

s far as I can determine, the MGB GT was the world's first true "hatchback" as we know it today.

You forgot one Shifty>


You could say that it wasn't a hatch "as we know it" because the hatch opened sideways but c'mon.
I'm pretty sure MG got the idea from Jaguar.

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm...did the back seats flop forward into an entirely flat floor on the E-Type? They do on the MGB.

If so, I concede....if not, I win. :P

I always thought of the E-Type coupe arrangement as a "prototype" hatch that didn't quite get it right.

andys120

I always thought of the E-Type coupe arrangement as a "prototype" hatch that didn't quite get it right.

Fair enough,frankly I was unaware that the rear seats could be folded in the MGB-GT .

Even without the folding rears the hatchback sports cars offered something sorely lacking in cars of the era, carrying capacity. If you drove a Brit sports car it was advisable to carry plenty of tools, spare belts, plugs jumper cables and the like.

By the time I got all that into the trunk there was barely room for a six-pack. :sick:

To this day out of habit, I carry tools in the car despite having a cellphone and a Triple A card. :P

seminole_kev

How do you see the original Mini fitting in with that Shifty as far as the first hatchback? Not sure what particular criteria you're using for that claim.

Mr_Shiftright

My idea of a true hatchback would be:

tailgate that flips up

rear seats fold down flat

floor more or less even with car's rear deck opening or with only a couple of inches needed to lift cargo in and out.

If the rear seats don't fold down or if you have to "drop" your cargo into a well, then it's really not a hatchback IMO, but rather just a car with a big trunk lid.

jbollt

In regards to the first "hatchback" would this be a contender?



(edit.. I've removed the details for those of you that would like to figure out what this is..after all, this IS the Mystery Car Pix thread)

"...... was an innovative automobile, among the first to incorporate a hatchback lift gate and drop-down tailgate, allowing the vehicle's owner to convert the four-door sedan to a spacious station wagon or all-purpose camping vehicle."

urnews

Looks like a 1949 Mercury. Not sure of the model.

andre1969

I think that's some sort of Frazier model, like a 1949 or 50? I forget what they called them, though. I want to say "Carry-all", but that was a DeSoto model.

andys120

That's a Kaiser Manhattan Traveller IIRC, ca. 1949-50, it preceeded the MG-BGT by a decade and a half.

The original Mini had no provision for lifting the back just a small shallow trunk like those found on today's Mini ragtops.

The old Mini Traveller could be considered a hatch back 'cept the
doors open like on
an old Suburban.

It's curious that both used the same name.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not a hatchback because it has two gates. Nope. That's based on the station wagon principle. Otherwise we'd call them "hatches-back".

It's still the MGB...keep trying. :P

oregonboy

When I was a kid, my parents had a Chrysler Traveller which came with a roof rack and fold down rear seats, but a conventional trunk lid. That makes 3 "Travellers"


"

andre1969

Here's an old ad for the DeSoto Carry-All, which kind of shows the car in action.

Must've been a versatile sucker. Back then cars sat up higher and were really more like trucks, so even in RWD configuration, stuff like the rear axle, driveshaft, etc, didn't get in the way like it would once they started lowering cars.

andys120

It's still the MGB...keep trying.

No it's not, even by your definition it's the Kaiser/Frazer Travellers. I can see the rear seat folded forward in that photo.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but it's not a "hatch"...it's a tailgate...the whole idea of "hatchback" is that the whole back end lifts up in one swoop---that's what made them popular.

The double-gate is very heavy and a rattle-trap, which is why this type of conversion didn't sell.

Close but no cigar. It's like when they put record players in cars--what they really need was the 8-track tape deck.

The single hatch-hatch was the perfect solution and that's why it still prevails today.

The Traveller was like the two-headed frog----allll---most got it right!

stever

But does the rear seat fold down?

jbollt

Wow! sorry about the size of th image, how do i make it smaller?

stever

Here you go - I'll delete your post and leave this one up. (I clicked on the image properties where you got it instead of using the full resolution link).

Jbolt said: "It's a 1949 Kaiser-Frazer Vagabond. And, if that doesn't fit Shiffty's definition of a hatchback, perhaps this does?"

stickguy

Citreon, traction avant?

jbollt

thanks, Steve!

jbollt

Hatchback

jbollt

"..But does the rear seat fold down?"

Yeah....we don't know that. :confuse:

andre1969

have a hatchback-style liftgate that was hinged at the top? I vaguely remember a '56 Chevy wagon used as an ambulance in "North By Northwest" that opened this way, unless my mind is playing tricks on me. Actually, as I recall, they flubbed and used two different wagons in the movie. One had a two-piece job where the tailgate dropped down and the part with the glass opened upward, while the other just had a one-piece job that opened like a hatch.

jbollt

From Wikipedia: "The DB2/4 was a sports car sold by Aston Martin from 1953 through 1957. It was based on the DB2 model it replaced, but featured 2+2 seating and a novel hatch back, well ahead of the times."

(Can't seem to find a picture of one showing the hatch, however)

edit, here's one of the 1958 model

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:1958_Aston_Martin_DB24_Mark_III_rear.JPG

A 1959 review by Road & Track magazine praised the car for everything but its $7,450 price. "A car for connoisseurs," they called it. "The Aston has many virtues and few faults." Among the faults was too-heavy steering effort, high door sills, and a stiff ride. Interestingly, R&T failed to comment at all on the car's innovative hatchback body style, complete with fold-down rear seats, although this had been first introduced in the 2/4 MkI in 1953.

ateixeira

I know it when I see it.

jbollt

yep! 1938 Citreon Traction Avant

andys120

How about this?>


1953 DB-2/4 Mk.1

The seat is up but there appears to be some sort of latch on the LH rear of the seatback??

jbollt

Thanks, andy! Shifty?.... Your ruling please, sir.

seminole_kev

The bottom lip of the opening isn't going to be low enough.....just my guess ;-)

andre1969

The bottom lip of the opening isn't going to be low enough.....just my guess

Actually, I took the bottom lip of the opening to be one of the differentiators between a station wagon and a hatchback. IMO, for a vehicle to be a true station wagon, the rear opening should extend all the way down to the floor of the cargo area. For this reason, many people don't consider the AMC Hornet wagon to be a "true" station wagon.

andys120

ca. 1958>

This is one of many Italian wagons of the era with names like Giadneria, Familiare and Weekendina. At least some had one-piece tailgates and since they were wagons I 'spect the
seats went down.

kyfdx

Yeah... almost all hatchbacks have a lip that you have to lift over.. think back to all of the hatches in the '80s.. Accord, Celica, etc, etc... They all had a fairly significant lip..