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Comments
Minivan sales could be going down for a number of reasons:
- gas prices, so folks not really needing 3 rows all the time may have downsized
- other 3 row vehicle alternatives now in the market
- demographics - less car-seat aged kids (it's easier for a 14 yr old to climb in the 3rd row of a CUV than it is for mommy to put a 2 yr old in the 3rd row of a CUV
- Plus I think that because Ford and GM minivan sales were so bad it pulled down the overall minivan sales in general, so it's not that minivan sales are down, but that nobody wants to buy domestics minivans
"Odyssey sales [Aug 2006] of 18,773 units broke the all-time record, increasing 11.6 percent over year-ago results."
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/09/01/020571.html
For the record, I own a Ford Freestyle, not a minivan, because I don't need the really huge space offered by a minivan and I like the car handling characteristics of my big station wagon as folks like to call it. I paid $24K for a vehicle that only slightly smaller (because of it's smaller width) than the lamdas. But it's hard for me to imagine spending $35-45K on average for an Outlook/Acadia because from what I've read, there isn't anything on them worth another $10-20K over what I bought, but again that's just me.
On the other hand, the articles posted above all indicate that the main reason people will be driven to purchase the Outlook/Acadia is for looks and perception. They don't want to be "seen" driving a minivan and they don't like the "look" of a minivan. Of course wanting a "look" is what drove most people to buy giant SUVs, so it should work in this case too.
I think the lamdas will be great alternatives for folks currently driving giant domestics SUVs, and for folks who would have bought domestic minivans that are going away, so for that I'm happy that the lambdas are out there.
Since I don't tow or need AWD, for me personally there's absolutely no way I'd buy a lambda because after graduating high school I stopped being so concerned about the way other people perceive me, so the perception idea of "not wanting to be seen driving a minivan" means nothing to me. I'm not worried about my neighbor making fun of me because I'm driving a minivan, and driving a lambda wouldn't boost my self-esteem as compared to driving a minivan. If I get to the point where I need something bigger that what I have right now, I'll pay $30K for a very nicely equipped Odyssey or Sienna (or even Kia minivan) that have greater interior space to the lambdas, the same exterior size, and that come from a high quality company.
Do I think the lambdas will be a success...yes, as much of a success as the giant SUVs where in the past and being sold to the same market and same types of folks driven by perception and style.
I think you give too much weight to perception and style. Of course people are going to tend to buy styles they like, but those truly concerned about others' perception are probably buying Lexus and Acura. I for one will most likely end up with a Lambda because it looks like it best meets my needs coming out of a minivan. I currently have a an old Dodge Gr. Caravan. I would consider another minivan, but want AWD which is no longer an option on the Caravan.
So my only minivan option would be the AWD Sienna (which I have not ruled out). Your comment about demographics is right on the mark for my situation. When I bought my van 10 years ago, it was perfect for my young family and far superior from an accessibility standpoint than anything an SUV could offer. Now my kids are older and I don't have a need for the sliding doors anymore.
My shopping list includes the Lamdas, Mazda CX-9, Sienna, maybe the Hyundai Veracruz and yes, I will probably take a look at the Freestyle. Can't wait for my local auto show in January - shopping is half the fun!
It just seems to me that on the pricing side, I still think they should have price either the Outlook or Acadia lower than the Honda/Toyota/Kia competition because even though it has more interior space, there is still the quality issue of GM when compared to Asian car makers. But for those going from domestic to domestic it won't matter.
Plus for the used car buyers it will be great because of the depreciation of GMs. In a couple of years you'll probably be able to buy a 2007 lambda for $15-20K, and maybe I'll be in the market for one then!
I'd be interested to know how many lambda buyers are trading in Honda/Toyota for their lambda versus another GM?
The other issues of perception were not mine, but what was said in the posted articles. Any particular reason you ruled out the AWD Sienna??
And that's my point with the minivans, when you have 3 kids in carseats and you need space for two strollers and all the baby-gear then you need the max-space of a minivan. But if you have 3 kids in ages 10-18, you might not need the max minivan space but still want 3 rows of seats so you don't need to put all 3 in the back seat of a sedan.
I'm also looking at the CX-9, and the GT trim with Nav and Ent goes for about $40k once you add auto dim mirror, roof rack, etc. So maybe a bit cheaper than the Acadia, but then again you can't get the moonroof with the Ent system on the CX-9.
In the end it's a fine balance of roominess and price. I sat in an Acadia, and it truly is spacious. The third row is actually useable for adults, too. But I just wonder if I really need all that room for a family of four...
As for resale value, it seems a bit odd to me for a Ford Freestyle owner to be bagging on GM for that. Anyway, for me resale is not a large issue because I tend to keep my cars for 10 years - pretty much any car I buy is going to be of little value when I'm done with it!
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/12/bad-motor-mount-halts-sale-of-saturn-outlook-- and-gmc-acadia/
I then looked up the BASE Outlook. No incentives currently available. Net price is MSRP plus delivery... $27,990. That would be the one you should be comparing instead of the quoted average transaction of one loaded up to $35K.
Difference is more like $4,900, not the $11,000 you seem to be saying. Compare apples to apples and make a valid point.
Just went back and loaded up the BASE Freestyle. That brought it up to over $29K including the $2K incentives... Wow, I can get an Outlook for less than a Freestyle.
I agree that Ford resale value stinks too, but two years ago when I bought the Freestyle, there wasn't a vehicle with 3 rows outside of a minivan with the same interior space, and since I didn't need the huge interior minivan space, I went with the Freestyle (tri-level heat/ac, comfort package, curtain airbags, and not much else), so we're talking about 2yr old pricing here.
Now two years later there are other CUVs with adult 3rd rows (CX-9, lambdas, etc.), but 2 yrs ago there weren't, especially in the mid-$20's price range. I'll probably end up keeping my vehicle long enough that the resale value doesn't matter either, but my comment was for folks buying used.
It's true when I compared on cars.com that an Oulook would be in the high $20s and only a couple of thousand more than today's Freestyle equipped about the same. I guess when I read the posted articles the dollar amounts sounded pretty high, but I don't need leather, I'm happy with the standard stereo, and I don't like ceiling DVD players (I'd rather have a few portable ones).
Plus I just read something about the average new car MSRP being $30K and that surprised me too. I thought it was more in the mid-$20s. I guess I'm pretty cheap--to me spending over $30K for any car seems like too much! So everyone can ignore my comments on cost because I must have lost touch with car price reality! What sort of monthly payments are you looking at when buying a car for $35K??? Even if you put down $10K or had a trade-in for $10K, to borrow $25K at 7% for 5 years is about $500/month, or almost $700/month with 100% financed...ouch. I guess if you keep a car for 10 years, but then I have my bias against GM quality, so I don't know if I'd want to keep one that long.
$30K for 60 months works about to about $597/mo. (Would be about $45 per month less if using the 3.99% I got 2.5 years ago... Rates have gone up quite a bit since then.)
I guess we will probably never agree...I have not gotten a good impression in the past while shopping Ford products. Explorer..rough ride, rattles, cheap material. Expedition, cheap, flimsy material on the interion. Some GM products seem to have better material and quality. Of course, I have not really shopped either's lower end products especially cars in years, so my old ideas might be out of date.
Low to mid 30's in about as high as I can see going for a 7-8 passenger ride, decently equiped, but not completely loaded. On the other hand, there are a bunch of folks that will not blink before spending $50-60K for a ride. :-)
About the Q7 comparisons, Audi is not known for low-defect vehicles. The Acadia/Outlook/Enclave may have a few initial bugs, but GM is working hard to iron out the kinks. Keep in mind this is a brand-new architecture. GM has never built a FWD vehicle this heavy. I think the very old Toronado/Eldorado FWD luxury cars were about 4,000 lbs tops. The Lambdas come in at a Sumo-like 4700 lbs in 4WD trim, and probably something like 4500 for a FWD model! Still, the 26 MPG is impressive for a 4500 lb vehicle, better than the smaller Ford Edge with the same size engine. My Freestyle is the real MPG champ, as I regularly get 27 MPG with 80% highway driving.
As I have said before, it's relativity. Ford charged that price because they knew with (possibly better) competition, that's all the money they could get out of the buyer without them saying" im looking at a pilot!" As for the 10-20k statement, YOu wouldn't get a topline model if you were a buyer- you'd get the Outlook for 27. ANd Gm knows that people will pay this high 30's price for all the extra space and features they will get. ANd maybe some some flash.
the perception idea of "not wanting to be seen driving a minivan" means nothing to me.
THat's good-that's you. BUt that's not everyone. SOme just think that for 30+k they should get something that they like that looks good-not settle.Don't get me wrong-A caravan is a quality people mover (the best around)but the gap is closing-judging by sales-fast.ANd like you can pay 32g for a loaded Freestyle, you will be able to pay 37g for it's predecessor! Look at the cost of an Edge!
Yes, GM may see a big drop in large SUV trucks in the coming year and hopefully they will buy the Lamdas.
Saturn will have the lowest MSRP's but once there are enough Acadia's out there and the bloom has worn off a bit (6-12 months/after the Enclave is out?) perhaps you could haggle a GMC dealer down enough to make them about even in price.
Karl
As for resales value, the residuals on recent GM models has been decent. This is mainly due to the quality of the products and the lack of incentives being used. I think you might want to check out the projected residuals on these models before assuming they will be worthless in three years. I'm pretty sure GM has the best resales value out of the Big 3 and is probably better than the Koreans.
On the model we tried, which was an early Acadia built by GM for testing and not quite ready for sale to the public, the handle was balky. A GM spokeswoman said that problem will be solved on the models headed to dealerships in December. Nevertheless, it would be a good thing to check at the dealership before making a purchase.
Summary
It is no small trick to combine functionality, polish and a good load of safety equipment at a reasonable starting price. But that's precisely what GM has done with the all-new GMC Acadia.
Well, compared to the Freestyle, the Envoy is 7” taller (I don’t want a ladder to get inside), 7" longer, but interior space is less (2nd row legroom is 4" less and 3rd row legroom is 2" less), MPG is 15/20 vs 20/27, crash tests are all 4 stars while the Freestyle gets 5 stars, price is higher, etc...
And the other posts here agree with some of what I’ve been saying. People are looking at trading in their Suburbans, Chrysler minivans, Trailblazer, Expedition, etc for the lambdas, so for the most part, the buyers look like GM (and some Ford) owners going to another GM. Like I said that's good, but not great for GM who should be looking to attract buyers not currently driving GM.
From the same article http://www.newcartestdrive.com/review-walk.cfm?Vehicle=2007_GMC_Acadia&ReviewID=- - 2001
"GM says the second row has a maximum of 36.9 inches of leg room, which is comparable to the Pilot and Explorer. To provide a little more flexibility the Acadia's second row slides fore and aft a total of four inches. Its 36.9 inches of legroom is measured with the seat roughly in the middle of the four inches, GM says. With the second row in the rearward-most position a six-foot adult can be comfortable in the driver's seat and another six-foot adult can be seated directly behind without being cramped."
So according to GM, it’s comparable (not better) to the Explorer and Pilot, for a 6’ driver to be comfortable with a 6’ passenger behind him, then the 2nd row seat must be all the way back...what about the guy in the 3rd row with the 2nd row all the way back?? My Freestyle has 40” of 2nd row legroom (no my 2nd row bench doesn't slide...and doesn't need to) and a 6’ guy can still sit in the 3rd row.
Yes, the lambdas are good vehicles in a lot of ways, but I'm just pointing out that they're revolutionary in terms of interior space.
And if I didn't write my long posts, the no-one would have anything to responde to :P
But I would like to see someone here post something saying that they're thinking of replacing their Odyssey or Pilot with the new lambda...otherwise it's a forum with a lot of GM die-hards patting themselves on the back. And did someone actually post that the Caravan was the best minivan around...na, I must be mistaken!
And it's good for the guy who keeps pulling out the nice quotes from articles reviewing the lambdas, but remember that the lambdas are in their honeymoon period. You can read articles from every new car out there and find people singing their praises. We'll see after some comparison reviews. It's easy to say how great a vehicle is when you're talking about it in a vacuum, but it's funny how upset people get when you actually try to compare things.
What about the mazda CX-9, or other vehicles. Let's hear some more compare/contrasting to other vehicles.
As far as diehard GM fans I hope that once the Lamdas are available the buyers will come here and tell us what they think.
There's been a lot of talk about where the Lambda cars will fit in to the market and what the competition will be. Up til now, I'd been thinking I'd buy a new Toyota/Honda/Hyundai minivan whenever my old wagon bit the dust. But then I started reading about new and upcoming crossovers. Now, the Buick Enclave tops my list. I like the 4WD feature, the look of it, and the ride quality (as discussed in reviews) over any of the minivans. And among crossovers it appeals to me, especially because of space. Obviously, no crossover competes with minivans for interior space, but the GMs come closest: 69 cu. ft. with 5 passengers (my family) vs. 48 for the Freestyle, CX-9, and Pilot. And 20 cu. ft. with 7 passengers vs. 16 for the Freestyle and Pilot, and 17 for the CX-9. These small differences mean a lot to large families packing for a trip. The Freestyle still might be attractive because of its lower price, but the engine and CVT transmission make me strike it from my list.
Lots of people are not at all tired of minivans and will continue to buy them. I don't know how much the crossover market as a whole will cut in to this. But within the crossover market, the new GM models seem tops to me so far.
I am looking forward to seeing one in real life.
Okay, here you are!! I have an 05 Pilot EX-L Nav with its lease expiring in apr 07. Up until the Acadia, I planned on replacing it with an ody. The ody has problems with the run-flat tires that honda seems unwilling to face. The Pilot ride harsher than my wife wants. Pending a looooong test drive I PLAN ON REPLACING MY PILOT WITH AN ACADIA. Diehard GM enthusiast? NO! GM hater? yes! my last GM product was a 1974 pickup. I have been a diehard Ford driver, but they are in the pits and, from the corporate side, apparently have no interest in improving.
The only substantial beef on the Freestyle has been that 203 hp and 208 ft-lbs is not enough, which is merely a tradeoff for better MPG, which the Freestyle gets (20/27 MPG) while delivering 8.2 seconds 0-60 mph (Car and Driver mag.), good enough. The CVT really sets it apart, the Murano being the only other CUV with that, and it is very smoothe. The Outlook/Acadia would do better in my opinion with a 3.2L V6 (instead of a 3.6L) to improve the MPG. We are supposed to be getting weaned off foreign oil sources, aren't we? A 400 HP Outlook would be fun, but at what cost in MPG and oil sourcing?
Acadia/Outlook real MPG has yet to be calculated by folks actually buying them and driving enough to get some figures, but the rated MPG gain is significant. Power it down enough to kill performance and you make a winner into a loser in a hurry. I was looking at possibly going to a Yukon since I really don't want to step down in size from my '00 Trooper. If the Acadia/Outlook gives 20+ mpg vs. maybe 15 for a Yukon, that is a 33% increase. I'm averaging probably 17-17.5 in my Trooper, so that would probably be a small savings for me.
I may still end up with a 5 passenger Envoy or equivalent. Those can be had reasonably equipped for less than $25K and I have to decide if the extra room is worth the extra money.
What will the bottom line be for a 40K Acadia? I can only go back 2.5 years when we bought the '04 Envoy XL. SLT package got the MSRP w/dest to almost $40K. At that time there was a $5K rebate and my wife gets GSM pricing, so the net was at least $8K under the sticker. Now we are talking a little over $30K which sounds a lot better than $40K :-).
I understand that GM reduced some of their pricing and wanted to cut out some of the big rebates. I think they might have changed the GSM plan up a little, so I don't think you could get that much off now, but a nicely equiped one might actually sell for closer to the low $30s than the upper $30s. Time will tell on that.
You get what you pay for and at it's price point, I do not see any competitors to the GMC Acadia. I havent seen the Mazda CX-9 that Edmunds gives it's Editors choice for SUV's under 35k, because they are not on showroom floors yet.... but based on the CX-7, there is no comparison to the GMC. If the Mazda were an ice cream flavor, Vanilla would call it boring.
So, as of now, the only two con's I see is the lack of bluetooth and that cheap lever on the middle row seat.
I imagine the SLT will have color coordinated door handles and turn signals in the side mirrors, as the SLE did not have that.
Didn't know that Bluetooth was not an option. Will this apply to the Enclave as well? Definitely want bluetooth: this will be the wife's car, and she's not too crazy about driving and fiddling around with the cell phone.
I think all these crossovers (GM, Mazda, etc) are being slightly overpriced, i.e. they still carry inflated SUV pricing. It makes complete sense to price them at that range since they are meant to draw in the SUV price, but let's not forget that crossovers will also appeal to minivan and station-wagon owners who don't typically pay $40k for a car!
p.s. I would wait until you can sit in a CX-9 and Veracruz before you settle for the MDX. Interior quality is supposedly very nice and not bland.
Jay
As far as waiting on the CX-9... You look at a CX-7 and you are looking at about 95% of what the CX-9 is... they changed the center stripe on the leather seats and the thing is longer.... other than that, it's the same boring styling.. Frankly, it makes some of Hondas boring interiors look fancy. The whole vehicle just bores me... nothing exciting or noteworthy about the styling IMO.
I drive a 2004 AWD Lincoln Aviator and the only new mid-sized SUV that I would give it up for is the MDX... Although, the Buick Enclave has had my eye since pictures first surfaced a year or so ago.
Girlfriend drives a 2001 Mazda Tribute and she is the one the vehicle is for.. Acura is her favorite, she was dead against the GMC just because she has spoiled her eyeballs and senses by looking at luxury nameplates (Acura, Infiniti, BMW).
If I were ready to get rid of Aviator, I would definitely wait until Enclave, Acadia Denali to compare with MDX.
Now, if I weren't able to spend over 40k for a SUV... Acadia definitely over Mazda and other competitors.
The Audio Q7 3.6L V6 version lists at $39,000, similar to a loaded-up Acadia, and has dimensions surprisingly identical to the Acadia/Outlook/Enclave. If they can come close to the Q7's performance level, then GM has a hit. GM already beats about anything in the class at MPG, anyway. Only my Freestyle beats it at MPG, but its 2 inches narrower (same length). The CX-9 is certainly another competitor. The Pilot is really too short to compare closely, although its in there.
The GMC Acadia just got a "First Drive" from Car and Driver, the best auto testers around. A quote: "The steering is precise and accurate, the handling is poised, body control in the twisties is excellent, and the ride is well controlled and supple. The brakes have a firm pedal feel, and are able to woe the 5000-pound Acadia with aplomb." That was from (click the following link)Test Drive
Maxivan
Unlike some of the primordial crossovers, like the Chrysler Pacifica and Ford Freestyle, the Outlook effectively delivers all the goodness of a minivan — price range, seating flexibility, fuel economy, standard safety and available options — with the SUV looks so many minivan-averse families are seeking. Unless you really need a true off-roader, or have to tow more than the Outlook's 4,500-pound rating, this Saturn is also the perfect alternative to a traditional truck-based SUV like the Ford Expedition or Chevy Tahoe.
General Motors might be about a decade late with its V6-powered, SUV-silhouetted, unibody people hauler, but GM got it right. The full-size 2007 Saturn Outlook really is the world's first anti-SUV, anti-minivan utility vehicle, and it just might be the next big thing.
2" narrower than the new CX-9.
Sorry off topic, but common!- for price comfort and convienience, you can't beat caravan. Can and Odessey and sienna(even the one that tops out at 40 large!) fold second row seats into the floor for most cargo space in class? didn't think so!!! Must I mention that you will pay near msrp for expensive 40g sienna and oddesey-as opposed to 34 for an overloaded Town and Country. Even though a little outdated, there's not any better for your money. Engine is a little weak, but who races Minivans? When updated, this van will conquer all! I though you at least liked quality at a good price (though I don't know where Freestyle fits into quality, Bob).I'll say it again, and get mad if anyone goes off on me for getting off topic-sorry for going off topic! Anyway, It's plain english- THe Acadia seats adults comfortably in second-and third row. No hard to reach editors-just another guy on the post. Take it from me! Sounds like they are already getting good reviews for comfort and handling (no complaints from edmunds). And coldcranker- even though engines are big and performance pushed, lambdas still make 19 and 26 mpg. They are going into new crossover territory, and most of the trucks they overlap (Envoy XL and Uplander) are being kicked out. THey will bring new pilot owners. Thanks for the long posts Bob. THey really give this forum some energy!!!
Okay if you insist...you said And coldcranker- even though engines are big and performance pushed, lambdas still make 19 and 26 mpg
And the article said:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=118803
Rated at 18 mpg city and 26 mpg highway, our Outlook returned a best-tank fuel economy of 19 mpg and an overall week's average of 15.5 mpg
And the handles to get to the 3rd row feel like they're going to break off I'm told.
Still no comments on the Caravan
You're basically correct: Acadia = 78.2" vs. Freestyle = 74.4", a diff of 3.8", or 1.9" on each side. The Pacifica is the real Sumo amongst the competitors, as it is a whopping 79.3" wide, which is actually greater than a new Yukon! For most people who have to park these beasts, the Freestyle is going to be more manageable. In a few years, we'll all be driving school buses, because more girth is better....
The Edmunds cars are also driven by a bunch of different drivers, especially the long term fleet cars, and lots of it is LA commuting (that's where all that 60-0 braking comes in, LOL).
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=118833