Sales Flops of 2005

rockylee

Were you going to say something ?

Rocky

guss

I hit enter before tab. You are quick.

rockylee

LOL

Rocky

rockylee

That's why I was quick. Nothing on TV, so edmunds is getting my full attention tonight. :surprise:

Rocky

nippononly

Yeah, like you said, if they are discontinuing it. A recent example that comes to mind is the 2005 NSX, although it's a niche car, so probably a bad example. They made it and sold it through 12-31-05, then quit. No 2006 model because of new emissions standards. :-(

It's weird too - my local Acura dealer has a beautiful black one sitting in their showroom with a big sign in the window that says "Not for sale". I wonder why not. And then what, now it will just be showroom window dressing for the next year? This is a car that deserves to be driven.

ateixeira

Maybe it already sold, but the customer agreed to let the dealer continue to display it for a little while?

-juice

nippononly

Wow, that's one generous customer! I wonder what the daily fee for that would be?

Acura dealers will just have to accept the fact that the NSX is gone for a couple of years and the less-than-exciting RL will have to be their halo model for a while.

andre1969

Oh, you mean the '64 & 1/2 Mustang? (My uncle had one until his death in '93 and insisted it was NOT a '65)

Actually, in that case the "1964.5" Mustangs WERE a bit different from the "proper" 1965 models, but according to history books, and the way the cars were originally titled, I think they're all still considered 1965 models. IIRC the main difference was that the 1964.5 models had a smaller inline-6 (maybe the Falcon 144 instead of the later 170) and a smaller V-8 (260 CID versus 289).

ctsang

The next NSX will have a V10 engine.

anythngbutgm

Heck, I'd split the cost (MSRP $90k) with a dealer and let him showcase the car for a year if I could find a deal like that! I couldn't touch a 3 year old model for 45 grand, much less a brand new one...

noxrox

As far as I know, the NSX can still be sold, as long as it is sold for what model year it is. Lots of past model cars sit on dealer lots and get sold, but just as for the model year they are.

Probably not for sale because it will be stored and hope to make a killing on it in a few years.

varmint

Might be a birthday present for the owner's teenager. :sick:

nippononly

it's probably what you said, I am guessing.

anythingbutgm: I dunno that I'd want a year's worth of footprints, smudges, and general traffic in my brand new exotic sports car, even if I did get a 50% reduction in the price and there were no miles on the clock. Ever seen an auto show car that's done a few shows already?! :-P

Actually, come to think of it, I never checked to see if it was open and could be sat in, I just assumed. Probably it was locked up tight. Never thought about that.

xwesx

Hahah.... just imagining you walking up and pulling the handle. Oh, the horrific noise of an alarm going off inside a showroom! :P

michaellno

Using these numbers:

Car X projection: 20,000
Car X actual: 16,000 (80%)

Car Y projection: 100,000
Car Y actual: 90,000 (90%)

Which car was the flop? Do you base it on percentage of the goal or on the number of units not sold?

Even though car Y was closer to the target in terms of percentage, missing by 10,000 units as opposed to 4,000 units makes it tough to determine, in my mind.

Your thoughts?

And, does any car maker actually sell more of a given model than they predicted? The only example I can think of recently is the redesigned Mustang, though I can't remember how many more units they sold.

robertsmx

Sometimes automakers do end up selling more cars than they projected over a given timeframe. Acura projected sales for TSX in the first 12 months was just 15K units, but they ended up selling way more than that... and sold 35-40K last year. Ridgeline was said to be struggling in sales (media jumped on it, as did many people in these boards), but after first 12 months on sale, 50,852 units were sold compared to projected 50K units so it barely made it.

As far as units versus percentage goes, you would have to go by percentage. It helps to have a baseline, and often comparable to percentage drop or increase in overall market. For example, if pickup truck market drops by 15% over a period, but a particular brand manages to do no worse than 10% drop, relatively speaking, they did better than the average (or "above average"), while unable to sell as many as they probably would have otherwise.

iluvmysephia1

Mustang's model year. The 1964 1/2 model year Ford Mustang does not have the slanted metal strip going down the side of the car just behind the driver/passenger. That area has the indented area on the side of the body to put the metal "slash" strip-it just doesn't have the metal "slash" put on for the 1964 1/2 model.

OTOH-the 1965 model Mustang does have the slanted (\)metal slash behind the door on the side. The 1966 Ford Mustang also has the slanted slash of metal attached and has horizontal pieces slashing through the slash.

My first car was a metallic purple 1965 Ford Mustang with the metal slash just behind the doors on both sides of the vehicle. Just an ornamental thing but it does enable you to tell the model year differences.

I would guess this piece of metal trim is about 10 inches in length.

nippononly

is an either/or, I would say. If it falls 10% short of its own manufacturer's predictions, then it's a dud. 50% short is a flop. In between is a gray area. But that one goes by percentages, not straight numbers. A good example is the recently-discontinued SSR! :-P

BUT ALSO if a mainstream vehicle from one of the Big 6 manufacturers (GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, Honda) sells way less than comparable models from other companies, then it is also a flop, even if the company guessed not a lot would be sold. Mainstream is mainstream, after all. The Freestar and Quest come to mind.

explorerx4

NSX. it's worth more as a showroom draw than as another car to be sold. my opinion is nobody other than honda fans care. jmo.

john_324

Pretty much. Edmunds summed up the current model pretty well: "A supercar...for 1992."

I have a buddy who's an Acura nut...he's owned 3 of them. They're cool looking, sure, but these days, the fact that a 'Vette puts them to shame in all performance categories makes the pricetag hard to swallow.

nippononly

what price exclusivity? :-)

In that car, every single stereo speaker has its own amplifier. Yet they managed to hold the weight to 3000 pounds. Amazing.

rsholland

Just because a car hasn't found its audience doesn't necessarily mean it's a flop—maybe a flop in terms of "sales," but it still may well be a great car.

I think the Subaru Baja fits that description. A sales flop, for sure, but still a very neat vehicle; and as I posted before, owners love them...

Bob

fintail

But lots of Aztek owners love those things too, right?

I always saw the Baja as an ElCamino, but not aimed at the ElCamino crowd.

stryker5671

man....the poor mazda b-series. It is probably the most hopeless compact truck on the market right now doomed to utmost failure. i have one of the older ones that were made in japan (86-93) mines an 89, and it is a great little truck. when they rebadged it as a ranger in 94 it was done for. I wish mazda would get thier truck back from ford. it would be good competition against the nissan frontier and toyota tacoma.

As for the other vehicles.....

volvo isnt fairing well....

land rover is a complete waste of time...

mercedes' quality in thier build has gone downhill...

volkswagon isnt giving the consumer what they want...

mercury is pointless cause its just a lower class lincoln, and a little bit better than ford...

jaguars are OK, but i guess that that percentage is a lil surprising...

audis are too expensive...

mitsubisis arent the greatest when it all comes down to build quality...

the monte carlo has lost alot of spunk as a sportier muscle type car, its getting blander....further adding to GM's losses...

but idk. these cars can have a chance to survive......most cars out there have to be alot more fuel effecent. these gas guzzling suvs have to go. maybe 1 or 2 on a particular company. another thing is, is that big car companys have too many lines and brands, like GM for example or ford. oh well. if those chinese cars come into the us market, its the end of the US economy as we know it....

rsholland

But lots of Aztek owners love those things too, right?

Exactly. So for those owners, the vehicle (Aztec, Baja, etc.), the vehicle is clearly not a flop.

And in the end that's what's most important. If the owners of these vehicles are happy with them, if it meets their needs, for them, it's not a flop. What you and I (as market observers and as non-owners) think, means nothing.

I think some people here seem to confuse sales success with owner satisfaction. For the manufacturers it well may well be a flop (because it didn't meet sales projections), but for many owners it's a success story (because it meets their needs).

Bob

rroyce10

... **As far as I know, the NSX can still be sold....**

The dealer is actually sittin' pretty having that NSX in the showroom ....

Many options here .. it's a strong draw, that means he can sell "off" of it ... maybe an 02/03, perhaps an 01 that he can snatch at the auction ... plus, if push comes to shove he can drop it in the Dupont do-dad and get his $85/$89+ ......

If worse comes to worse and his wife runs off with the milkman, he'll run it thru the auction with the MSO and see $80+ ....... these things still get $$ ... big $$ ..



Terry.

fintail

It must all depend on the viewpoint. I am sure some people loved their Edsels too...but it was a disaster. I think in the scope of reference here, if a vehicle either ends up being a financial loss for the company, or hurts brand equity, it's a flop.

boaz47

That is the point of this forum isn't it? A sales flop is s flop because people will not buy it. It is an objective subject not subjective as rs has suggested. The Echo was a sales flop. The xB proved to be more of a success the xA was a flop. But only if we consider sales and projections and that seemed to be the intent.

If they had to increase the production to meet the demand for the xB and cut import of the xA then the xA was a sales flop even if it was offset by the increased sales of the xB and the tC. This seems even more true in a market where we have a lot of compitition like the crossover SUV market. Sales can be quantified and compared so it doesn't matter if someone that bought one of these vehicles or not the real issue is they missed the mark so badly they can be called a sales flop.

The Baja qualifies, the Echo qualifies and to maybe a lesser degree the xA qualifies. The xB exceeded projections as did the tC. The tC did better however so would we say it was even more of a success? The B-9 only made 88 percent of projection so by nippons definition it might be a dud right now and not a flop just yet. I will give the point to ateixeira as he is a loyal Subaru fan and as such seems far more willing to give it more time.

When Nissan made the Titan they predicted 100k sales the first year but they didn't make it but they did manage to sell about 85 percent. So if we can define a percentage as the break point it should be a simple matter to name the sales flops.

In respect to rsholland the subject of the reason a vehicle was a sales flop might make a whole different interesting forum.

PS, to tell the truth if they start offering some real sales discounts to unload some Bajas I might try to talk my wife into trading her ZTS in on one. I hate hauling top soil and planting mix in my PT.

rockylee

It will be interesting to see JUST how many americans buy those Chinese brand cars. If alot buy em' buh bye to both American and Japanese economy's :sick:
We will see alot of lay-offs in this country.

Rocky

anythngbutgm

I predict a second coming of the Hyundai Excel and Yugo GV with these new Chinese cars. I also predict those people are going to get burned...

Then again, I also think people are smarter nowadays than they were in the 80's. There are a lot of excellent choices out there, and quite a few at a low price that these new cars are supposed to carry. The eighties were a tough time for the automakers, there was little excitment or innovation. So they were merely appliances, and in the case of the Excel, a bargain appliance represented innovation .

I don't think it's worth the risk of being a guinnea pig for a new unproven brand from an unproven country of origin when the current crop are already proven in the market.

ateixeira

Yeah, Aztek actually won the JDP APEAL study a couple of years in a row, it was wild.

Overall, though, it did more harm than good. If you create 3 die-hard fans but alienate 300 million, it's still a flop.

-juice

nippononly

Yeah, but if the cheapest Aveo or Yaris or Rio is $10 grand, and the latest Chinese model is $5K, they will find buyers. Of that, I'm SURE.

ateixeira

They will, the question is can they sustain themselves in this country?

Hyundai's Excel was the best-selling import in 1987 IIRC, but it took them years to get over the stumbled first launch. To this day the Sonata has to carry a price and warranty advantage even though it's a very competitive car.

Can the Chinese make a profit with the same business model now that quality and reliability are almost a given?

-juice

nippononly

the Chinese models will be fairly reliable, as it seems that most of what you give up with the Chinese cars is refinement and top-quality manufacturing (fit and finish, etc).

As such, cars may truly become disposable at these kind of prices. No need for a "long haul warranty" if the car itself is $4995. At that price, ANYONE who can afford to buy ANY new car now will be able to have one of these Chinese models paid off in three years. So give it a 3/36 warranty, which I am sure would not cause the Chinese undue hardship, and you're done. The car is totally disposable: you don't expect it go much longer than 5 years (hopefully it is fully recyclable), then you buy another one.

ateixeira

I wonder if those buyers will come back for a 2nd, though. The ownership experience has to be decent.

I would not assume a chinese car will be reliable, in fact I predict it'll be far from.

-juice

nippononly

the Chinese have been working pretty closely with western manufacturers - they have had plenty of time to learn and mimic western manufacturing designs and build processes. I think they will prove to be less problematic than those 80s Excels mentioned above...

chuck1959

I don't think it's worth the risk of being a guinnea pig for a new unproven brand from an unproven country of origin when the current crop are already proven in the market.

I recall this attitude back in the 60's when "foreign" cars first started coming over here. Now look...they not only proven themselves, they took over!!

ateixeira

Well that's a safe bet, but there is a lot of space between an 80s Excel and today's cars. I'm not convinced the first few Chery or Geely cars will be up to snuff.

But, like you said, for $5 grand, they won't have to be.

-juice

chuck1959

I think China wants to be success here. Surely they saw what happened with the Hyundais and Yugos of the 80's

ctsang

Please give reasons why Chinese cars won't be reliable? Look at the things you bought which are made in China, are they reliable? Why would they sell unreliable cars to make themselves look bad?

ateixeira

Many different sources have stated that things like fit and finish on the show cars they have seen to date are not up to the high standards of competitors from Japan and even Korea.

If those flaws (uneven panel gaps, for instance) are clearly visible, imagine the things that aren't.

The V6 engine in the Equinox is made in China and so far has shown poor reliability.

The make clones of the old Isuzu Rodeo and in European crash tests the SUVs have performed poorly, with A-pillars buckling and dummies not faring very well.

Now it's a huge country, so we should not generalize, but the signs so far are that while they are most definitely cost competitive, the have work to do in other areas.

-juice

anythngbutgm

Reliable or not, these cars have zero track record. And the examples I have seen have been nothing more than copies from the original design. If that little amount of effort went into the exterior of their product, I don't expect some miracle under the hood.

rsholland

I realize this thread is about "sales" flops. I just wanted to interject that even though a vehicle may be a sales flop, it's not necessarily a "total" flop.

If those who bought it, and were disappointed, I would agree with you. If on the other hand, those who bought it are happy with their purchase, then for them it was a success story, and not a flop.

Bob

xrunner2

If those who bought it, and were disappointed, I would agree with you. If on the other hand, those who bought it are happy with their purchase, then for them it was a success story, and not a flop.

Another consideration is how long a buyer of a flop (Aztek as example) plans on keeping the new purchase. If a long time like 10 years, then not a problem. But, for those trading in frequently, such as every 3 years, then they will suffer the "flop" at trade-in time.

chuck1959

Why did Yugo when they first came to the states?

nippononly

But then the question becomes, which one is more meaningful? I mean, being a sales flop is a measurable quantity that has ramifications for the automaker in question. Being a "total" flop means...............????

In this context, what was the SSR? It was most definitely a sales flop. So was the GTO. And the most recent Thunderbird. Were any or all "total flops"?

ctsang

What does Yugo have to do with Chinese cars? Do you have anything at home that was made in Yugoslavia?

ateixeira

I'd argue that the SSR was a total flop. They hardly sold any at all, and it really did nothing at all for Chevy.

The GTO didn't sell well, and was criticized for its "sucked on caramel" styling, but at least it revived interest in RWD muscle and it will have a successor.

So it was a sales flop, but it did have some limited success.

With the T-bird, I just feel like Ford kept it around for too long. The launch was successful, it was in a Bond movie and sales from the Neiman Marcus catalog sold out rather quickly, but then they let it go stale.

So that one flopped because Ford mismanaged the product.

-juice

gagrice

Given that GM is the largest automaker in China. I would think that the first Chinese cars to hit our showrooms would be GM models. Much simpler than getting new dealerships on board. Just remember they currently supply 99% of our basic transportation needs. The shoes we are wearing. Even some of the major European brands we love to flaunt are "made in China"!!

rsholland

While the trade-in issue is valid, I bet most people don't consider that when they buy a vehicle.

What I'm talking about is the time of ownership. Was it a good experience, or was it a mistake? Would they do it again, if they could do it over? If the answer is yes, then my contention is the vehicle was not a flop, as it met their needs.

Again the manufacturer may not agree, as it didn't meet sales goals, but those who did purchase it may think it's great.

Bob