Sales Flops of 2005

chuck1959

Looking back at that post am I embarrassed! I don't know what I typed! I know there was a point some where, but god knows what it is now. That's what I get for trying to work and post at the same time! Sorry guys.

nippononly

It's possible that there should be a third category: sales flop, total flop, and serious embarassment. I would put the SSR in the last category. It wasn't good at anything dynamically (too heavy, too slow, and no good as a pick-up), it didn't get anyone interested in Chevy, and it sat on dealer lots for 18 months after which they would discount it to like half price just to get it gone.

The Baja was almost like that, but in least in that case it was not supposed to be a halo model, so its demise will go unnoticed. Those SSRs were out in front of showrooms at first, with American flags waving from everywhere they could be attached.

varmint

Well, I have to confess to being a poor prognosticator for the HHR. I thought that little rig was a waste of time... Too late to the party started by the PT Cruiser. And the flopping of the SSR also suggested more doom and gloom.

But it seems to be doing quite well for GM.

once_for_all

the HHR has good ads and good exposure. Appealing to the college age and just out of college age crowd. The ads are a nice blend of "hip" and function with a taste of the trendy PT Cruiser.

Kudos to GM they got something right.

John

iluvmysephia1

for the Chevrolet HHR. The fantastic interior with all that configurated room available. I happen to like it's looks. It works for Chevrolet.

boaz47

will do but I would think it would have to do better than the SSR. This time they got the price right.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/chevrolet/hhr/100536430/compare.html

It is all personal but while I like the front of the HHR the back just doesn't seem to match. While the front looks retro the interior looks corporate GM, to me anyway. But it seems as if they are in the ball park for this segment.

ateixeira

The PT and HHR are fringe cars to me, my wife considers them "clown cars". But you can't argue with their sales. PT has even sustained pretty decent sales for quite a while.

I think the Caliber sort of steps on the PT's toes, though. DCX has no small sedan now, basically.

-juice

ubbermotor

Considering the first year sale goal for the PT was 80,000, and they've topped that every year, I'd say its doing ok.

iluvmysephia1

stat above serves to tell the PT Cruiser story in a quick nutshell. How can you call the "retro" car a loser? You really can't. You may or may not like the car, but, it has done pretty well.

fintail

I like the HHR more than the PT, somehow. Seems a little more masculine or something, and seems like it would be roomier. I don't want to buy one though.

chuck1959

IIRC the HHR was meant to be a retro late 40/50's Suburban. The PT was not, it was just to resemble a 40's style car.

ateixeira

Seemed space-efficient until I read the Consumer Reports issue where it was side-by-side with a Mazda5. The Mazda squeezes in 6 seats and more cargo room.

-juice

transpower

I've asked Edmunds for detailed sales figures for all vehicles, and they referred me to Auto News. Unfortunately, the staff at Auto News doesn't have that information either. I've searched the Web pretty intensely and cannot find a breakdown by make and model of auto sales by year. Surely this info is somewhere. Can anyone provide a URL with continuously updated auto sales figures?

boaz47

http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/homesedan.asp

This might help.

boaz47

Isn't the Mazda5 a mini van? And while I hate catching CR in a mistake doesn't edmunds list the HHR as having 63 cubic feet of cargo space and the mazda5 has 44 has. The HHR and the PT both have a lot of cargo space even the caliber has 48 cubic feet of cargo space. What does CR use to measure cargo space? A honest question here.

guss

Car & Drivers measurment the best.They use cases of beer. I don't know if thats bigger or smaller than a cubic foot, but could sure come in handy if you are having a party.

At 63 cases you would probally be better off just getting the keg.

qbrozen

hmmmm... yer right, boaz, edmunds says 44 for the mazda5, as does Mazda's website (likely where edmunds got their number) .... but something doesn't seem right about that. 44 seems awfully small for a vehicle where you can lay 2 rows of seats flat.

ateixeira

To get those 63 cubes in the HHR, don't you have to remove the seats? Thing is, where do you put them? On the roof? What if it's raining?

I'd want to know the cargo space with the seats folded or at least in the car.

On the PT I'm pretty sure it's the same way, you have to remove the seats.

For all practical purposes, the Mazda5 seats more people and carries more cargo.

I did find it odd that CR categorized it as a wagon. :confuse:

-juice

rorr

Well according to Mazda's website, the Mazda3 has 95.3 cf passenger volume and 17.1 cf of cargo volume for a total of 112.4 cf of volume. I'm assuming they measured the cargo volume (for the Mazda3) BEHIND the 2nd row.

Similarly, the Mazda5 is listed with 97.7 cf of passenger volume and 44.4 cf of cargo volume and a total of 142.1 cf of volume. Again, I believe the 44cf of cargo volume for the Mazda5 is BEHIND the 2nd row. NOT w/ both rows folded.

Chevy lists the cargo volume for the HHR (w/ rear seat FOLDED) at 55.6cf.

ateixeira

Perhaps those two rows of seats take up some space, so the HHR wins in that measure.

-juice

gagrice

Maybe CR fills the vehicle with water and then measures the drained volume. :shades:

varmint

I think one of the suggested methods was ping-pong balls stuffed into a net.

ateixeira

LOL

I like the cases 'o beer test and CR's biggest box.

That's because we all stack things up and want to see how many boxes will fit, but we also take home a clothes dryer or a dishwasher once in a while, so we wanna know if it'll fit.

-juice

xwesx

Yep, but those factory volume #s would sure be useful if we were taking home goose down or spray foam! :P

easym1

Let's not compare apples and oranges.

boaz47

You're right. It is just strange that CR classified the Mazda5 in the same category as a HHR. After all they should be in two different classes. As a Mini Van the Mazda5 seems a bit small compared to a Town and country. The HHR seems about right compared to a PT, Caliber, xB and the like. And the price seems to be about right as well.

Would it be fair to consider the Titan a flop because it still isn't making projections? Nissan has reported that they are planning to scale back production on both the Titan and the Armada. And the Armada hasn't proved to be much of a sales success either.

varmint

The Titan? Yes.

The Armada? Not so sure. Hasn't the large SUV category been shrinking at about the same rate as Armada sales? I don't think it's a success, but some of the lost sales may be the result of a soft market as much as the vehicle itself.

ateixeira

Mazda5 will actually replace the MPV in the lineup, but it doesn't really have a direct competitor.

People are cross-shopping it with all kinds of things, Forester and RAV4 included. In fact they're usually *not* shopping for other vans.

It reminds me a bit of the Mitsubishi Expo, the Civic Wagovan, remember those? There was also a Dodge something, I forget the name right now...

-juice

rsholland

Oh, I disagree. I don't think either of them as being flops; far from it. I see both Titans and Armadas all over the place.

The sales may be down a bit, but I think that's due to the fact that the market for those types of vehicles are down. I do agree that their quality control issues have hurt them, but I see that as a small bump in the road that Nissan will surely overcome.

Bob

ateixeira

Ghosn was just probably a little optimistic about how quickly a newbie could penetrate those markets. The nameplates weren't established.

-juice

rsholland

If I were in the market for a full-size SUV or pickup, they would be my first choice. When the new Tundra hits the streets that may change, but until then, the Nissans would be my first choice.

Bob

gagrice

The Titan is not a serious competition in the work truck category. Look beyond the facade. Titan uses plastic mounts for the radiator. The only plus I can see is a good V8 engine. Their small trucks are pretty decent.

ateixeira

I'd like to see an interior upgrade, but the powertrain is best in class IMO.

-juice

rorr

"Look beyond the facade. Titan uses plastic mounts for the radiator."

And?

Has there been a number of reported problems with radiator mount breakage? Just how highly stressed IS a radiator mount and is there some inherent reason why it can't be plastic? Does using it for a "work truck" place anymore stress on a radiator support than if it were a commuter vehicle/occasional use truck?

transpower

Thanks, boaz47; that site is just what I was looking for.

rsholland

Since when have modern 1/2-tons been considered "work trucks?" Most people who buy work trucks opt for 3/4-tons or larger. FWIW, it's as much a work truck as any other 1/2-ton.

Bob

jimmy81

To get those 63 cubes in the HHR, don't you have to remove the seats? Thing is, where do you put them?

Exactly. Like the minivans with stowaway seats. Most minivans I see have 'stuff' all over the seats. Where do you put all this 'stuff' when you want to fold the seat in?

rorr

"Most minivans I see have 'stuff' all over the seats. Where do you put all this 'stuff' when you want to fold the seat in?"

I don't think the EPA has a 'stuff' fudge factor. Besides, you have this 'stuff' to deal with when hauling a load of.....'stuff' whether you've got stowaway seats or not.

bigdveedubgirl

VW Phaeton.....

Awesome car....too bad us Americans are so label vain.....

varmint

I don't know what Nissan's target was for the Armada, but it's the slowest selling of the big trucks. T here are a few (full-size) luxury SUVs which sell slower, but luxury models are more of a niche market. For that matter the QX56 is the slowest selling of the luxury segment.

If I recall correctly, the Titan didn't make projections in its first year. By that yardstick, the Ridgeline has been more successful. YTD sales for the Titan are lower than the last, though I concede we are only looking at 2 months of this year. Honestly, I think it's a very good truck. I was one of the posters saying that this would be the first import to seriously challenge the domestics. But I don't think it has filled the shoes it was intended to fill.

ateixeira

Not yet, but Nissan was trying to do too much with too little. They had a lot of new products while at the same time cutting costs.

I'd call the Quest a flop, but not the Titan/Armada.

-juice

gagrice

Since when have modern 1/2-tons been considered "work trucks?"

Many Superintendents opt for flashy 1/2 ton PU trucks. They get a fair amount of abuse on construction jobs where you are on fresh graded pads etc. Bouncing over cat tracks is not for a truck built for pavement only. If they have a great running gear what has caused all the bad press?

geo9

A "smart" buyer after reading the threads here at
Edmunds along with titantalk.com and other places
wouldn't touch a titan or armada with a 10 foot pole!

Lousy brakes, driveline issues, poor assembly etc.
scare most buyers away. Read our friend Jolies
issues with BOTH her titans here at Edmunds........
Not to mention very POOR resale on those dogs
as told by the sales pros over in the "Smart Shopper"
threads.

The sales of BOTH have declined each year............

boaz47

like Nissan announcing cut backs in Titan and Armada production that tells more than just not meeting production goals. The Nissan Compact Truck was the one that started the whole compact truck market. They were first passed by Toyota, then Ford, then GM,, then Dodge and have never reached the sales position they built themselves. Nissan is not Honda, or Toyota and people keep trying to equate them with both Japanese companies simply because they are all Japanese. There is "something" that has kept people out of the showrooms or even into Nissan Trucks. I don't know what it is but I do know that when I was looking for a compact truck Nissan didn't make my short list. And once I decided on a full sized truck I did take a peek at the Tundra. But the Titan just didn't inspire me at all. Maybe it looked like a bloated Frontier, I simply don't know. I just think that falling into the bottom of your class just might qualify as a flop. If that doesn't then maybe RSholland is right, and there are no flops.

bigdveedubgirl: VW has worked very hard to develop a bad reputation here in the US. I am not sure they have a clue about quality control or customer service. But they have been down on the Bottom of the JD Powers dependability list so long that with the exception of KIA we could award them the place as their benchmark. Two of the brands that rate higher than VW are Isuzu, with almost no customer base and Daewoo which is discontinued. Daewoo customers must still like them better.

gagrice

The Nissan Compact Truck was the one that started the whole compact truck market.

I bought a new 1970 Datsun PU that was great. I sold it 5 years later for $200 less than I paid new. I then bought a 1976 Datsun PU. Poor quality vehicle. Never looked at Nissan/Datsun again. Was lucky to sell it.

silversolara

isn't the Phaeton the same platform as the Bentley Continental GT? so, if taking that into consideration, would this make the Phaeton actually some sort of 'value buy', if there can be such a thing at $90K? I studied a Phaeton in a parking lot nearby Princeton last year, and came to the conclusion that if no one knew it was $90K, it would have been a conservatively attractive car with more-than-decent interior appointments.

I would have to say that the G6, considering GM's expectations for its sales, is a huge dog for 2005. I drive from Princeton to Philly, taking both 95 and 295, and see a LOT more Lucernes and LaCrosses (LaCrossi?) during my commute than G6's... and this car replaced the ubiquitous Grand Am?

rockylee

I agree it's a very nice car. It defintely will make some a very nice used car.

Rocky

rsholland

They've had some serious quality issues. Nissan knows it, and they're addressing it.

I agree with Geo in that the '04 and '05 models had a lot of problems, and Nissan is paying the price with a lot of bad press. My guess is that Nissan has solved most if not all of the problems by now. I'd be very leary of buying an '04/'05 model, but not an '06 model.

Bob

stryker5671

How do you guys think mazda is doing.....thier new sedans are really sporty looking, like the mazda 3, and the mazda 6. also, i hear that they are releasing the mazda 9 in a couple of years, which is a replacement to the earlier 929 and millenia. i dont think they are doing to bad....just thier b-series should be taken off and replaced with something of mazda's own creativity, instead of basing it off of the ford ranger (blah). but what do you guys think?

prosa

The Mazda3 is selling quite well, however I'm not sure if any other models are doing the same. The Mazda6 is getting a little old and the dealers seem to be discounting it heavily, and the RX-8 and MX-5 (formerly Miata) are niche models. The MPV and Tribute are lame ducks and being discounted like crazy, while the B-series is positively ancient and as far as I can tell is still selling in modest numbers only because it (and the Ranger) are just about the cheapest pickups on the market.
I'd say any judgments as to Mazda's success or lack thereof will have to wait until we see how the CX-7 does. The same's true for the Mazda5, which is still pretty new to the market. Finally, I'm puzzled by Mazda's decision to yank the Tribute off the market for MY'07 and bring it back only slightly revised for MY'08.