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Sales Flops of 2005

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  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    The new SportTrac will hardly be small. It'll be basically the current Explorer with a pickup bed.

    Ford hasn't upgraded the Ranger because of the expense (and they need to watch their spending!), and the market for smaller trucks isn't expanding -- people are moving to the full-size trucks in spite of high gas prices. (And the newer midsize trucks aren't all that great for fuel economy anyway, especially with V6 engines.)

    IIRC, the Ranger won't be redesigned until 2010 -- an eternity in the car world.

    Regarding the Subaru BRAT, I wasn't aware that NHTSA outlawed bed-mounted seats. (The seats did have lap belts.)

    However, I have heard that Subaru has tried to buy back all BRATS still on the road to avoid lawsuits in the event of crashes that injure or kill occupants in the bed.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    The new SportTrac will hardly be small.

    Ditto with the current Tacoma, Frontier, Dakota, and Ridgeline. Compact trucks are morphing in to mid-size trucks.

    Actually, that's true of just about every vehicle class.
  • john_324john_324 Member Posts: 974
    "Actually, that's true of just about every vehicle class. "

    I've wondered if we're seeing the 1970s all over again...cars getting huge, the horsepower wars heating up, all just in time for high gas prices and insurance cost escalation...
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    Well, it is simple enough to comprehend - the mid-size 4-door truck is the perfect do-it-all vehicle for a standard (5 person, or less) family. Smalls are not comfortable and full-sizes are uneconomical or too bulky or both.

    Going back to Rangers for a moment, I see many MANY of them on the roads (with their twin Mazda B-series) up here, and new ones are frequent sights. They are typically standard cabs, though some X-cabs. The reason? Super-cheap pickup for a youngster, as a weekend workhorse, or as a second vehicle. As far as new vehicles go, it is hard to match the price without buying a tin can.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • prosaprosa Member Posts: 280
    Going back to Rangers for a moment, I see many MANY of them on the roads (with their twin Mazda B-series) up here, and new ones are frequent sights. They are typically standard cabs, though some X-cabs. The reason? Super-cheap pickup for a youngster, as a weekend workhorse, or as a second vehicle. As far as new vehicles go, it is hard to match the price without buying a tin can.

    I just did a price configuation on this site, and it says that a regular cab, 2wd Ranger with a manual transmission, with air and CD player, can be bought for $14,000 + TTL. It's hard to beat such a deal.
  • navigator89navigator89 Member Posts: 1,080
    image

    I think Ford should produce this to compete with the Tacomas/Frontiers/Dakotas and keep the Ranger for those who need a dirt cheap ride. The Sport Trac can be for those who need a truck without off road abilities.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Dang that's small. Looks a little boxy, too.

    (Your image tag failed) ;)
  • navigator89navigator89 Member Posts: 1,080
    Lol, I know the tag failed.

    A bigger pic. The bed on this thing needs to be deepened a bit, a long bed option should be given. Otherwise it looks good.

    Lucky Thailand.

    image
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Wow, that's a sharp looking truck... Looks better than the S/T IMO.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    I remember reading several months back that they were upping production of the Mazda3 because they were selling them faster than they could build them. I wonder how it will perform in 2006 with the new Civic? I tested them both when I was shopping last month and still went with the 3. The Civic seems to put off some people, though it will no doubt outsell the 3 by three to one. High gas prices will probably negate any impact the Civic (and other new subcompacts soon to be introduced) may have on it.

    The Mazda6's sales may drop in the next few years, who knows for sure. They do depend on some pretty hefty (almost GM-like) incentives. My best friend bought an '05 back in October for almost $6k under MSRP.

    I read an interview with a Mazda exec (VP of something) talking about the 6 and how they missed the mark in the U.S. by making it a bit too small. He cited the Honda Accord and the fact that Honda sells a smaller, sportier Accord elsewhere (the TSX to us) but has to build a larger, bigger engined, cushier riding Accord for the North American market. According to him, the next generation Mazda6 will follow that pattern. Sad in my opinion because the 6 is a sharp, great handling car, but they have to go where the sales are. As it is now, a lot of people cross shop the 3 with the 6. When I got my 3, I could have had a 6 i Sport for less than $1000 more. A larger, comfier car makes sense...especially since the demise of the 929 and Millenia.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    I'm holding my breath for the MazdaSpeed3! I can't wait to see how it turns out. At this point, I've only seen very crude spy shots. Too bad that everything I've read says it will be FWD instead of AWD. Although I can hope and pray that'll change between now and production.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    The Astra, Chevrolet Cobalt/HHR and Saturn Ion are all built on GM's Delta platform. From all accounts, though, the Astra is the far superior vehicle. The rumor mill has suggested that the Ion's replacement in 2007 may be a rebadged Astra.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    If you didn't find the G6 sales you were looking for, here's a link for all GM December 2005 sales including YTD (full year)-

    http://www.media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.co- m/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=6&docid=21738

    Not sure how many Pontiac was hoping to sell, but it appears they managed to sell 124,844 G6s. Not bad.

    I also noticed Hummer H2 sales are down 20% to 23k for the year. Heck, I can't believe THAT many people bought those things. They're hideous. I'm sure the H3 lured some buyers away.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    I assume it was the Euro version as of 2004 which I understand is similer to ours in some versions. They actually discussed the fact that the next Focus would be based on the 3 platform, and said, "If you want the GOOD one, go to your Ford dealer and buy one now before they ruin it!"

    The current Euro Focus and the 3 share a lot of components and both are highly regarded by most European media including "CAR", "Autocar", "Parker's" and several others I've read. Anyone claiming the 3 isn't a good car is seriously out of touch with automotive reality. They may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's any less of a good car. I hate Toyotas, but certainly doesn't mean they're not great cars.

    Ford DESPERATELY needs the updated Focus that the Europeans have. I drove one back in '04 as a rental in London and it was fantastic. It felt very much like my Mazda3 in terms of handling, build quality and interior materials. It'd really be awesome if Ford decided to give us the turbodiesel engines they sell in Europe, too.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    I wish I knew why Ford is ignoring the Ranger. Espcially with the other American trucks in that class look ugly.

    Ford has more critical market segments to work on before they can devote resources to the Ranger. The Focus has to be upgraded to the one they sell in Europe, they have to finish developing the 3.5L Duratec for the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr and Five Hundred/Montego, they need a minivan that actually sells, they're working on at least one new crossover. The Ranger just isn't a priority from what I've read in the the auto press. It's very possible that there won't be a replacement.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm sure the H3 lured some buyers away.

    A friend traded his Acura on a new H3 and loves it.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "The Mazda6's sales may drop in the next few years, who knows for sure. They do depend on some pretty hefty (almost GM-like) incentives. My best friend bought an '05 back in October for almost $6k under MSRP."

    I would have most definately bought a Mazda 6 if I was in the market for a new car the past couple of years.

    I read an interview with a Mazda exec (VP of something) talking about the 6 and how they missed the mark in the U.S. by making it a bit too small. He cited the Honda Accord and the fact that Honda sells a smaller, sportier Accord elsewhere (the TSX to us) but has to build a larger, bigger engined, cushier riding Accord for the North American market.

    Yeah the 6 is not a typical car for a family like the Accord is. In my opinion Mazda should make a Mazda 6 coupe along with a bigger next generation 6 but I don't think there are any plans for a Mazda 6 coupe.

    On a side note ealier this year I bought a magazine that had a drawing of what future cars would look like and they had a drawing of what an 08 Mazda 6 may look like. The front end reminded of the 1998-1999 Toyota Avalon.

    "A larger, comfier car makes sense...especially since the demise of the 929 and Millenia."

    I would think if Mazda was going to build another mid-luxury car like the Millenia they would have to come up with a new model rather than just replacing the old Millienia and 929 with a bigger 6. For example Toyota has the Camry but they have the Avalon which has more room than the Camry placed above the Camry in Toyota's line-up.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    I would think if Mazda was going to build another mid-luxury car like the Millenia they would have to come up with a new model rather than just replacing the old Millienia and 929 with a bigger 6. For example Toyota has the Camry but they have the Avalon which has more room than the Camry placed above the Camry in Toyota's line-up.

    I haven't read any indication that they're planning to build a larger than 6 model, but I was just saying that a larger, cushier 6 might fill some of the gap the 929 and Millenia left. Just a thought.

    Anyway, if/when they do come out with the larger, less sporty 6, they should also introduce the smaller version they're bound to sell in other countries. Load it with features, give it great handling and a strong engine, put a $30k price tag on it and sell is here as the Mazda9 or something. It worked for the TSX.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    I almost think that GM should have made the H3 a smaller vehicle in order to miss the H2 crowd completely. I had originally thought the thing was about 2/3 the size it really is. I thought it to be more in line with a Jeep um... just spaced the name of that rig they built to more or less replace the old base Cherokee a few years back. Nope... it is MUCH bigger than that!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Anyway, if/when they do come out with the larger, less sporty 6, they should also introduce the smaller version they're bound to sell in other countries. Load it with features, give it great handling and a strong engine, put a $30k price tag on it and sell is here as the Mazda9 or something. It worked for the TSX."

    Uh a Mazda for 30K thats smaller than a Mazda 6? I don;t think that would work for Mazda. It worked for Honda with the TSX because Honda could just slap the Acura emblem on the TSX and use it to fill a gap in Acura's line-up between the RSX and TL.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    You are right, it seems like a budget H2 rather than a whole different model.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    through some of the linked articles in the Automotive News headlines this morning, and while I don't remember exactly where I saw it (it was in there somewhere), it seems that overall full-size pick-up sales were down 20% for the year as well as large SUVs?

    If those are trends that continue, the hurry to revamp the large trucks at GM is going to look like a bad idea.

    I haven't looked specifically, but since Ford's number one seller is the F-150, perhaps that sales trend is responsible for allowing Chevy to beat Ford in total annual sales?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • critter1critter1 Member Posts: 104
    10-4 NAV! Ford needs to upgrade Ranger real bad! & GM needs to put V6 in Colorado Too! 5 cyl is a DOG! :confuse:
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The Ranger will be "upgraded" the day after the free-trade agreement with Thailand goes through.

    As for the Colorado, GM is stuck with its warmed-over D-Max for the time being. The I6 is too long to fit, and GM's only RWD V6s at the moment are the DOHC 2.8 and 3.6 in the Cadillac CTS. If I remember correctly, the old chop-block 4.3 is too wide for the Colorado, being a 90-degree engine. I'm still surprised that there's apparently been no thought given to building a midsize pickup on the Trailblazer platform.
  • davel13davel13 Member Posts: 1
    I sell for Infiniti. About two months after the '06 Infiniti M35 and Acura RLs (both cars are great vehicles) were released, we began to see the Acura dealers dipping into holdback to move them!!! Does that qualify???
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    RL sales are off Acura's target by about 13%. They're using incentives and special lease deals to move them. And while sales are pretty steady, they are not picking up.

    So, yeah, as much as I like the RL, it's pretty close to a flop.
  • mparks1mparks1 Member Posts: 3
    The H3 definitely could have used more thought. It might have done better in a smaller segment. Given its size, where is the Vortec 4200 I-6? A heavy vehicle such as the H3 would be far better off. A curb weight north of 5,000lb. driven by 5 cylinders? Nice try GM, but in America, SUV buyers want horsepower.
  • mparks1mparks1 Member Posts: 3
    Yeah-the ranger is underpowered and under-engineered compared with the much better tacoma and frontier. Even compared with it's domestic rivals, it doesn't stand among them either. Ford would be smart to make the 4.0L V-6 standars, and to offer the 3-valve 4.6L V-8 from the mustang and explorer. While they-re at it, they might as well update the chassis, like in the -06 explorer, and [non-permissible content removed] the six speed automatic transmission as well.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,722
    maybe i could see the 3.5 in the ranger. but not a v8(other than the sport trac). that is getting into f-series territory.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • jefferygjefferyg Member Posts: 418
    O.K. I've got to jump in on this one. IMHO Ford should not quit making the Ranger. I think they should stiffen the frame, upgrade the sheetmetal to make it look more like their bigger trucks, and upgrade the interior a bit. My guess is that if they'd do that and offer a crew cab they'd quickly get themselves back on top. But then again, when was the last time Ford did anything that made perfect sense?

    If they make the Ranger any bigger they will undercut Sport-Trac sales. BTW, if you look closely at that Thai pickup right between the cab and bed, you can see the same crescent moon curve as on the Sport-Trac. Sure it's a little better looking than our American version, but it's still got that fiberglass/plastic bed, and for a lot of buyers if the the bed ain't steel, it ain't no truck.

    As for the Chevys outselling Fords, I think that is probably more important to us as consumers than it is to the Automakers. I really believe that as long as vehicles are making a profit for the company they don't really care how many they sell.

    Ford needs to keep doing what they're doing on the F-150 and their Super-duty trucks. They need to keep the Ranger on basically the same platform it's on for profitability (see my earlier comments). Then they need to make the Sport-Trac a serious truck with at least an option for a six-foot bed and perhaps bring back the old F-100 badge for it.

    The bottom line for all automakers is the bottom line - How much did we make? And with just a few changes, Ford could easily increase their bottom line.
  • comp386comp386 Member Posts: 56
    What exactly is that and where did you get the picture?
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Ford Courier concept, what amounts to the next-gen equivalent of the Ranger outside of the Americas. Compact trucks still sell very well outside of North America (Toyota finally split the Tacoma off into a NA-only model while everyone else gets a smaller Hi-Lux) and most of them are built in Thailand.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,722
    i think it would be great if ford came back out with an F-100 model of a truck, another 'heritage' vehicle.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • jefferygjefferyg Member Posts: 418
    I like to see the old names revived, but if Ford were to put a new truck into production, I don't think the Courier name is a very good idea.

    We owned several of the little couriers years ago, and while they were pretty reliable little trucks, they were nothing more than rebadged Mazdas. A few of them had the 2.3 Pinto engine in them, but many if not most had a 1.8 or 2.0 Mazda 4 cyl in them. The 79 model I drove all through high school had the 2.0 engine. It had a split manifold so we did what seemed natural - we put dual exhaust on it with glasspack mufflers. :P It sounded like an airplane. But alas that was the only really exciting thing about the truck. :(

    I suppose the name said it all: Courier. Something for shuttling stuff from one place to another. They were good for that. AAMOF we've loaded firewood on the back of one until it was almost as high as the roof of the cab and it would still haul it.

    But I don't think the name invokes excitement in many people. Most probably don't even remember the little trucks.
  • jefferygjefferyg Member Posts: 418
    One other "good" thing about the Courier was that you could do body work on it with just a rubber hammer and the palm of your hand. The sheetmetal was about as easy to dent as a soda can.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    for something like a modern-day F-100 pickup? Wasn't an F-100 just an extra-light duty version of the F-series? While most people probably don't use the full capability of their 1/2 ton trucks, it's still not that hard to overload a full-sized half-ton. I'd imagine that something like an extra-light duty version of a full-sized truck would just be screaming out "OVERLOAD ME!!"
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I've thought for a while that Ford should just build a longbed, extended-cab version of the Explorer SportTrack and call 'em both F-100.
  • jefferygjefferyg Member Posts: 418
    As I recall the F-100 was the only offering Ford made in a half-ton truck back in the early 70's. We had a 74 F-100 with an 8 foot bed and a 390 V8 - hardly what I'd call light duty. My dad sold it right after I started driving, because he was afraid I'd get killed in it. Too much motor, not enough responsibility... :cry:

    My point was to go with the F-100 name just to keep with the F-series designation.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I thought the F100 was the short bed version of the half ton. I had one with a 6 cylinder and loved that truck.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    did Ford's designations go something like F-100/F-200/F-300? And then later on they went to the F-150/250/350? So then an older F-100 would be the same as a newer F-150, and the two never did overlap?

    For example, nowadays if you get a Silverado, the different ratings are labeled as 1500, 2500, and 3500. Back in the day though, it was different. My '85 Silverado is a C10. 3/4 ton was a C20, and 1-ton was a C30. Then for 4wd models you changed the C to a K.

    Maybe the bigger numbers just "sound" more impressive? :confuse:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    no, I remember driving a F100 as a fleet vehicle for this place I drove for in the mid-80s, and at that time there was already an F150. The F100 was just the wimpy cheaper version for people delivering film and pizzas and such (I was the guy working for the photo joint delivering film). :-)

    1983 was the last crossover year when they still made a 100, after that the F150 became the bottom of the line.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    Yes, for a long while there was F100, F150, F250 (and +100 increments on up with 450+ being large commercial vehicles with the same cab as the smaller ones, but with much larger fenders!). I am not sure of the exact years though. The Econolines were designated E100-E300 at 1/2, 3/4, and 1-ton. I am almost certain it was this way at least from 1969 through whenever they stopped making the '75 through '80s body style. I am not sure if they still are designated that way or not.

    My grandfather's 1976 Ford Ranger is an F250. That is an amazingly beefy, capable truck. I found it incredibly ironic that the Ranger trim designation that was once used for Ford's top-of-the-line F-series became the badge for its compact pickup in 1980 (or whenever that was).

    But, how did we manage to steer so far off topic?! :surprise:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    And Explorer was also a trimline for the F-Series pickup long before the Explorer SUV was introduced as a 1991 model!

    I think the first year of the Ranger was 1983 (a year later than the first S-10).
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    In the '70s-early '80s

    F100 1/2 ton
    F150 3/4 ton
    F200 1 ton

    Not sure exactly when or why they got away from that...

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  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...because those designations actually make sense, we can't have that now, can we?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    F100 1/2 ton
    F150 3/4 ton
    F200 1 ton


    Not really. It was more like this:

    F100 1/2-ton
    F150 HD 1/2-ton
    F250 3/4-ton
    F350 1-ton

    I'm not sure there ever was an F200 or F300. There was an E200 & E300 Econoline vans.

    The first F-Series debute back in 1948. And back then they were:

    F1 1/2-ton
    F2 3/4-ton
    F3 HD 3/4-ton (I think)
    F4 1-ton (I think)

    Bob
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,678
    There's a site called ford-trucks.com (cannot link it because it has a small forum) with a lot of photos of Fords from the past 40+ years and more random Ford info than any reasonable person would want to know.

    How did the Freestyle fare for '05? Judging from the # I see on the road here in Fairbanks, I would extrapolate that the car was a flop. They are rare here and I would expect them to be MORE common in Fairbanks than an average city, similar to our unusually high concentration of Subarus.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    question.
    Have you seen many hybrids in Fairbanks? I was wondering what they would do if they had to warm them up at -40 degrees. Or parked at work with no plug-in for 8 hours.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    From this webpage:

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/01/04/204860.html

    "The company's gains in this category were paced by the new Ford Freestyle and Mercury Mariner, which were introduced in late 2004. In December, Freestyle sales were up 66 percent and Mariner sales were up 10 percent. In their first full year, Freestyle sales totaled 76,739 and Mariner sales totaled 34,099. The company's CUV products also include the Ford Escape, America's best- selling CUV, and Volvo's XC70 and XC90."

    In 2005 they sold 76,739 Freestyles and 165,122 Escapes for comparison. So for every new Escape you see, there's a new Freestyle driving around.
  • chuck1959chuck1959 Member Posts: 654
    And Explorer was also a trimline for the F-Series pickup long before the Explorer SUV was introduced as a 1991 model!

    This is true. My dad bought new in 1976 a "F-150 Explorer". If I recall right it had a stripe along the upper side and a hood ornament.
This discussion has been closed.