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Sales Flops of 2005
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I agree a BIG disappointment. Well it does have a built in hot tub in the cab :sick:
Why are we comparing the Mazda 6 and Passat styling to an RL. The RL is a luxury car entry and the Altima and 6 are mid-size offerings. Everybody's bashing the RL for styling. The 5 Series looks like a Pontiac and we are bashing the RL? About the Passat the new one is not as attractive as the previous generation. It looks worse(the new Passat) than the RL if you want to compare the 2.
I agree with you there the RL doesn't blend in with the current Acura "family resemblance" that the TL, MDX, and TSX have.
I heard the IS can go up to 42K with some options. I thought Lexus wanted to sell to younger buyers with the current IS. They aren't selling to younger buyers with prices going up to 40K in my opinion.
If I'm dropping 30ish on a car, this is not on my radar screen even with the rebates.
No, the CTs has been successful for Caddy and has gotten them younger buyers so it wouldn't say the CTS has the same fate as the IS. Keep in mind the averaage age buyer of Caddy in the early 00's before Caddy's Art& Science styling theme started with the Escalade was like 64 so Caddy had alot of average age to drop brand wise. The CTs has gotten buyers that are in their 30's and 40's. The CTs was the second car in Caddy's line-up to get the Art & Science styling treatment with the Escalade being the first.
Another reason why I would say that the CTs doesn't suffer the same fate a the IS is that the IS is more of a competititor to the Audi A4, Volvo S40, and Acura TSX. The CTs is more of a competitor to the Acura TL, Lexus ES 300/330, and BMW 3 Series.
About the CTS going for 35K well the engine combo's drive the price up of the CTS. I mean when the CTS first came out it was priced at 29K-30K with a standard 3.2 liter engine. Now the CTs comes with a standard 2.8 liter engine with 210 HP. To me for a car like the CTS that is too little of an engine(2.8 liters) and doesn't produce enough HP. To get a more powerful engine in the CTS you have to pay more money. The next engine up in the CTS line-up from 2.8 liter would be the 3.6 liter that produces 255 HP. In my opinion Caddy drove prices up too fast for the currrent CTS too soon but its still sells well so you can't argue with success. I wonder how much money a 3 Series or Acura TL would be for the same equipment as the CTs has with the 3.6 liter engine that produces 255 HP not the 2.8 liter engine.
Maybe smart marketing would have been to position the CTS as more of a "tweener" between the A4 Etc and the TL etc?
As for the 2.8, I could not find one to test drive and tell you if this is an adequate engine for the car. But, like you I would think its just not enough motor for a car that size.
BTW, we went with an S40 T5, but were very willing to give the General a chance to earn our business with a CTS.
Infiniti has pretty much written off Q45. Ever seen a TV commercial or a brochure featuring the whole Infiniti lineup. None of them features Q45, it's the proverbial aunt with one eye in the middle of her forehead! Why don't they just cancel the thing?
Well said. Anyone can be blindsighited by his own sucess and Honda is no exception. Honda just dont know what the consumers of luxry and full size truck segmants want.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
On the minus side, there's the VW Jetta ("looks like a Corolla"), Ford Five Hundred and Fusion and Buick LaCrosse.
I'm sure I'm one of very few, but I actually did cross-shop the Volvo S40 and Mazda3. Perhaps it's because I'm a car buff and know that they're closely related. Typically, the S40 would be more expensive than I'd be willing to spend, but my local dealer has a 5-speed manual base model with no options for $21k. Anyway, I bought the Mazda3 instead for $16k.
I'm sure most of you know, but they kept the Legend name in all non-Acura markets, although Honda Legend doesn't sound that great either.
Conversely, Lexus sold 23,723 YTD thru 11/05. Really amazing is they sold 60,807 ES330 (most bland car on the planet) in the same period.
Try $47,879 for a completely loaded IS350. Who in their right mind would pay that?
There's no doubt in my mind that both the IS250 and IS350 are good quality vehicles that will prove to be very reliable downstream. My IS300 has been as near-perfect as any vehicle I've ever owned. But I truly believe that Lexus has overpriced both the IS250 and IS350. Even so, something tells me that they will still sell a whole lot of these cars. There are just too many people out there that are willing to overextend themselves financially for these cars to be a total sales flop for Lexus. It never ceases to amaze me just how far in debt some car buyers will go.
Ron M.
I wouldn't buy the TSX actually but as I said before there are so many people in every age bracket driving it that I have seen and the car has been a success sales wise so you can;t argue with its success. My problem with the TSX is the headroom is very tight and there only is a 4 banger in it when there should be a 6 cylinder engine in it for 27K. I do like the interior of it however and the exterior style of it should age well I think. The TL is the best car in Acura's line-up in my opinion and the TL has sold well. THe RL I have seen some in NJ on the road and I do like the exterior(I think I m one of the few but the interior plastics are not much than better in the TL and the headroom is just as much as the TL has.) I have sat in the RL, TL, and TSX. I like the TL the best out of all them. THE MDX is good as well even though I haven;t sat in it but it has been a good seller but I know its getting long in the tooth as we speak. I did see my people my age last year(in their 20's)sitting in the RL at the autoshow and the people I saw sitting in it didn't like it I don't think.
The average age of the Cadillac buyer is 54 years old. I think it was like 64 years old in 2000 or 2001 I think. I slso think Cady's average buyer is younger than Mercedes's average age buyer now. So yeah Caddy art & science has worked towards lowering its average age buyer. Its weird we are talking about Caddy. I have seen about 4 2005 STS's and 2 Caddy XLR covertibles over the past few days. Looks like Caddy is winning some buyers at least in NJ. 5 years ago nobody wanted to drive a Caddy but now people want to drive a Caddy again. NJ has always been huge market for Caddy but now they are getting younger buyers and their sales have improved of late over the past few years. I remembe reading "Business Week" before the release of the CTS wether Caddy could win buyers.
I am seeing a lot of the new DTS's. There is the similarity now for STS and DTS in appearance. Saw a shot of CTS coming a year or two which carries on that family similarity, and it's a good appearance they're branding.
Hope the rest of GM can get an image and sales going like that. With more and more other brands competing for US market that's going to be hard.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
THe Q45 even before the M35/45 still didn't sell well. THe M35/M45 leaves the Q45 in the dust. See with the Q the 1990-1996 style has aged well but the 1997-2001 Q45 I don't know what they were thinking with the styling of that. The bodystyle look boxy like a Volvo and the tailights amd headlights tried to mimic BMW. The current model I actually liked it looks when it first came out and still kinda do but the car just doesn't sell well.
"Conversely, Lexus sold 23,723 YTD thru 11/05. Really amazing is they sold 60,807 ES330 (most bland car on the planet) in the same period."
What has Lexus sold 23,723 of YTD?. I think you mean they have sold 23,723 LS's of you are comparing it to sales of the Q45.
"Really amazing is they sold 60,807 ES330 (most bland car on the planet) in the same period."
I agree with you the looks of the current ES just doesn't throw juice in your vains. I thought the exterior styling of the 1997-2001 Es 300 looks better than the current model especially the 1997-1999 style which always had a nice timeless style to it. They did refresh the ES 300 for the 2000 model year. However, I expect the next generation ES to have a more sporty appearence with exterior styling being more on the lines of the new IS and GS.
Yeah me too I have seen my share of DTS's around.
"Hope the rest of GM can get an image and sales going like that."
Its about the product, product and GM is hit or miss at times(alot more miss than hit.) THe 04 Malibu and 04
Grand Prix have been big misses for GM. The 97-03 Grand Prix was a good seller but the 04 model I don't think people thought of it as much of an improvement over the 97-03 leading to lukewarm sales. However a model like the Solstice I think will sell well and will get some sales for GM's Pontiac brand.
"With more and more other brands competing for US market that's going to be hard."
I agree saturation in the US market is one of the reason GM can't have the market share it had in the US in the 70's and even the 80's.
Interestingly, the TL sells much better than the TSX. The TSX has sold 31,833 thru 11/05 and TL has sold 70,684 thru 11/05.
Side note- the Ridgeline has actually sold 36,004 thru 11/05 and 11/05 was its best month ever! What was the annual sales projection for it?
"Conversely, Lexus sold 23,723 YTD thru 11/05. Really amazing is they sold 60,807 ES330 (most bland car on the planet) in the same period."
What has Lexus sold 23,723 of YTD?. I think you mean they have sold 23,723 LS's of you are comparing it to sales of the Q45.
Sorry, I ment to say they sold 23k of the LS. But since I was talking about the Q45, you figured it out. My bad.
Speaking of the Sebring, is it as much of a sales dog as it seems? I know there aren't more than a handful of retail sales, but the fleets grab up every one Chrysler makes. It'll be interesting to see the next gen Stratus/Sebring. Hopefully it will be as dramatic and well engineered as the Magnum/Charger/300.
Yes it is a sales dog. The last generation Sebring(95-00) sold pretty good. The current generation isn't styled on the exterior as well and has cheaper plastics in the interior than the last generation Sebring had so thats part of the reasons why sales of the current generation Sebring(-01-06) have suffered.
"It'll be interesting to see the next gen Stratus/Sebring.
Hopefully it will be as dramatic and well engineered as the Magnum/Charger/300."
Um well I think the 300 and Magnum are based on Mercedes-Benz architecture. I'm not sure if the Charger is based on Mercedes-benz architecture. Meanwhile, The next generation Sebring will be based on the current generation Mitsubishi Galant platform. I am hoping that Chrysler delivers a next generation Sebring along the lines stylistically of the 95-00 model and the interior plastics are improved dramitically over the current generation model.
I like the way the front end looks of the current GP better than the 97-03 model but the back end of the current model just doesn't look so good.
"Also, dropping the 2-door wasn't a very smart move."
Well Pontiac has the G6 coupe for a coupe offering.
The problem I see with the current Grand Prix is GM just warmed over the exterior design of the 97-03 model for the current model. The 04 Grand Prix just doesn't look like an 00's exterior design to me. The coupelike styling has been criticized as well on the Grand Prix in Consumer Reports and on the Edmunds Sedans Boards for the Grand Prix as difficult to access in and out of the car as well as complaints of lack of rear seat room. The car just doesn't perform well enough to compete judging from that ifcar.net thing that you posted about and was hammered in Consumer Reprts as well.
Maybe the next Grand Prix will look as good or better than the G6, which is a great looking car to me. But it is another example of Pontiac's cheap, plasticky interiors. When will they ever learn?
I read about six months ago that Pontiac has stopped fleet sales. The previous Grand Prix was a popular fleet car, but that destroyed resale values. An '03 low mileage Grand Prix can easily be bought for $10k which is less than 50% of the sticker price. It is possible, though, that they've resumed fleet sales due to their horribly slow sales since Employee Pricing. I'd be interested to know.
Just reply to this message.(please click on reply because then it will be easier for me to locate your opinions)
new cars for 05: Pontiac G6: hate to say it. I thought about this and the car is too small of a vehicle(sort of like the Mazda 6 is)to go up against the Accord, Altima, Camry, and Sonata.
On a side note with Pontiac coupe models there is also the GTO which is stickered at 30K plus I think but with GM discounting you could probably get in the high 20K range easy.
"Maybe the next Grand Prix will look as good or better than the G6, which is a great looking car to me."
The G6 is a a good looking car but like I said in my previous post its just is too small to compete with mid-size offerings like Accord, Camry, Altima, and Sonata.
"But it is another example of Pontiac's cheap, plasticky interiors. When will they ever learn?"
I think they have learned a little bit at least. The GTO has a nice interior but I think the interior of the GTO came from GM's Australian brand which is called "Holden".
Hey the Solstice interior I have seen a photo of the interior is not cheap. I'm with you on the cheap Pontiac plastic with The Grand Prix. The interior plastics in the current Grand Prix are improved from the last generations Grand Prix(97-03) interior but it wasn't that big of an improvement. The G6 I saw the interior of it at the Drag Race I went to in Englishtown, NJ this past summer. They had a G6 as a show car in the pit area at the race and the interior wasn;t bad looking. Maybe the G6 I saw was a more expensive model and not a base model. I don't know.
"The previous Grand Prix was a popular fleet car, but that destroyed resale values. An '03 low mileage Grand Prix can easily be bought for $10k which is less than 50% of the sticker price. It is possible, though, that they've resumed fleet sales due to their horribly slow sales since Employee Pricing. I'd be interested to know."
Keep in mind resale value is the price paid near invoice at least plus add in factory rebates(if any are offered by whatever the make and model of the car happens to be)to the final transaction price. For, example a company like Honda doesn't offer many incentives on their cars where as GM does offer alot of incentives on their cars. I wouldn;t judge resale of any car off the MSRP price. I remember reading an issue of Consumer Reports back in 2001 and the Grand Prix's resale value was rated average. I think resale value's of the last generation Grand Prix dropped after the 0% financing(sept 11th, 2001 WTC) happened.
The current Grand Prix like we have documented for the past 24 hours isn't a big seller like the last generation model. I saw an 04 Grand Prix base model in the newspaper at a Chevy dealer ship for 11,900 so there is probably hefty rebates to be had at the Pontiac dealer if you buy a GP new. I seen an 04 GP GTP in the 12K range in the newspaper as well. My eyes lit up when I saw that because even with the cheap plastic the Grand Prix GTP is probably a great performer. The ad for the GP GTP was at a dealer that sells GMC's and Chevy Trucks.
Nonsense...
PS:
Sonata was 7th place for best selling car in USA for November 2005(will haev to wait until the 2nd or 3rd to see how Dec sales go, total for year), and I think the G6 was 8th for November(both cars sold over 14,000+ units, Sonata barely ahead in sales over G6).
2) Fusion: People say it is selling well, but only 5,000+ Units in November . Some say it is due to limited supplies?
I dunno. when they beat G6 and Sonata every month on sales, then I will say they hit the big time(or if they even sell 100,000 a year).
I have seen a V6 Fusion on the lots now for 90 days, Same car, and they have had a black one on the lot for 7 weeks now, and I-4?
Not moving an inch.
I drove the Fusion.. it is along the lines of a G6, Sonata,Malibu, et al..., to me, anyways.
Price moves stuff, and G6's were less than 16K not too long ago, and Sonata's were 3-4K off mspr(Caah back) before bargaining, even.
Fusion? I think maybe 1000 off msrp, but not announced on tv, like Red tag, and Sonata up to 4K off.
While we're talking about GM, the (outrageously ugly) Monte Carlo took a serious nosedive in 2005 sales-wise. 11/04 YTD sales of the Monte were 52,578 and thru 11/05 they'd only sold 30,989.
Over at Ford, it appears their biggest loser is the Jaguar X-Type. 11/04 YTD it had sold 20,086 and 11/05 YTD only 10,163. FYI- I just read that there won't be a replacement for the entry level Jag once this model expires.
Most of the Japanese companies seem to have done pretty well, except the aforementioned Honda Ridgeline. Also, Mitsubishi sales are seriously down on Lancer and Outlander models. Perhaps they should just go ahead and pull the plug!
The Eclipse is selling alright. The Galant's exterior styling in the front I think will be toned down for 07. I don't know why Mitsu would even wait to tone down the Galants styling till 07. They should have just toned down its look for 06 instead of waiting until 07 in my opinion. A new Lancer should be coming out for 07 as well as a new Outlander I think for 07.
Well with Japanese Car Companies Mazda still has alot of work to do. The 3 and maybe the new 5 is their only knights in shining armor. As much as love the Mazda 6 the car needs to discounts to move off the lots. I mean there was discounts on 6's up to 5,000 dollars this summer at Mazda dealers. The car is too small in the interior to compete with the Japanese Big 3 mid- size offerings. Thats what is killing 6 sales its size. With that said a bigger 6 will be coming out for 08. The new Miata is selling alright. RX-8 sales have declined. The Tribute needs a replacement. The Mazda 5(mazda's small new van)had a stop sales on it for a month and a half because of a big recall.
With the Ridgeline as much as I like Honda I think the Ford F-150 looks 20 times better than the Ridgeline. It looked like Ford put a serious effort into this generation of F-150. The interior is great at least in photo's. The Ridgeline the shape of the exterior body looks like the Chevy Siliverado which I don't like. The Ridgeline just looks weird. I do see some in NJ but overall sales of the Ridgeline are not good.
"Over at Ford, it appears their biggest loser is the Jaguar X-Type. 11/04 YTD it had sold 20,086 and 11/05 YTD only 10,163. FYI- I just read that there won't be a replacement for the entry level Jag once this model expires."
Jag tried to get younger buyer into their showrooms with a 30K car but it didn't work. Part of the problem with the X-Type was it got blasted for being based on the Ford Mondeo platform I think.
I'm going to have to go with the Subaru Tribeca. I parked along side one and that is one butt ugly car. Makes the Aztek look good. Well not quite. I don't think they are selling real well. Not sure what they hoped for in sales.
The annual projection was 50,000 units. Keep in mind it didn't go on sale until March or April. I've done the math in other forums and (assuming sales continue at the same average) I think they'll come within a couple hundred units of that projection.
The Acura RL is actually farther off its projections than the Ridgeline.
I believe they forecast 40K units for the first full year. Like the Ridgeline, it started off slow, but the pace has picked up a bit recently.
If sales continue at an average pace, they'll be off by about 16%. Still a flop in my book, but not nearly as bad as I'd been led to believe.
it was pretty funny. some guy sitting in the cayenne went to adjust the rear view mirror. it came off the windshield. he let it dangle by the wire and pretended to be interested in the center dash controls below it.