Sales Flops of 2005

chuck1959

Heck, back over the summer I thought about getting a new truck, with all the employee pricing and stuff going on, but in the end decided to sink around $900 into my old '85 Silverado because, well, I'm cheap! Although the final verdict is out on whether that decision ends up being penny wise and pound foolish, because soon after that $900 repair, it went back for $250 worth of carb/choke work, and now the windshield wipers are acting squirelly, and I swear I smelled antifreeze last night.

I went through the same with my 1990 Town Car. Spent $1,000 for the A/C. The following week the alternator, then could not pass the emission test (Texas), then traded for the 2004 Rio Cinco.

goodegg

Go ahead and be offended chuck. Kias are cheap. Why else would anybody buy a death trap like that?

nippononly

this thread has turned to Korean-bashing! :sick:

bottgers

....between bashing and stating truth. People who don't like the truth call it bashing.

nippononly

so you honestly believe modern Kias are death traps? Not your words, I understand, but that (for me) crosses the line into a "bash", not to mention being an absurd statement.

Besides, all this talk of "only cheap people buy Kias" strays pretty far from the topic here: models that have flopped in 2005.

1racefan

The Pontiac G6 comes to mind...I am sure that didn't do as well in '05 as they would have liked.

I am wondering how the Hummer H3 will do. The Colorado engine seems a little light for such a sizeable vehicle. Although, I guess a lot of people will buy it just because there is now finally a Hummer in their price range.

nippononly

H3 will sell well - despite what the magazines say, lots of people who want a truck on purpose for trucky uses won't need it to have race car acceleration. (Of course, it would have been nice if they had given it enough power to beat an '80s VW Vanagon to freeway speed, but that's another story!)

G6 was very slow out of the gate, and DID disappoint initially in sales. As a result, GM made the decision to increase fleet sales, so that now it is doing pretty well. If you add up all the midsize GM cars from the various domestic brands (G6, LaCrosse, Malibu, what did I miss?), I believe you get close to (if not exceed) the sales numbers of the Camry. Of course, that is achieved with a MUCH higher proportion of fleet sales, so how much it benefits GM is subject to debate.

anythngbutgm

The G6 is a disaster. What a cheap, chintzy piece of garbage. It's about 1% more car than the outgoing GrandMA and I'd even go as far as calling it the reincarnated Cavalier! Even the Cobalt is a better built vehicle IMO.

GM wants the G6 to be a competitor to the Accord? Drive that thing right to Enterprise. It is THAT bad. :sick:

goodegg

You're wrong. The G6 is a great car for the money. Drive one and see. What's not to like? V6, sunroof, and good safety features for under $19K. And roomy.

bumpy

The G6 is a massive dud around here. I've seen a grand total of *one* sedan on the road. I've seen more GTOs than G6s. I think what happened was everyone who might have bought one ended up buying final-clearance-blowout-sale Grand Ams and Grand Prixes instead.

anythngbutgm

What's not to like? Interior ergonomics for one, REEKS of (typical GM)cheapness. I have owned 4 Accords so my expectations are a wee bit higher than the typical GM bargain shopper (no offense to you BTW just a generalization)

19 grand gets a base pushrod V6 and a 4-speed Auto. No thanks. I want a cammed V6 with a stick. I'd have to look at a GTP for what 28 grand??? Only to have a vehicle that's worth 1/3 of that in 3 years?

ALOT of choices for that much cake, including an Altima V6, Accord V6 or TSX. And for the record, so I don't look like an only Japanese fan, the Fusion is 100 times the car that the G6 wishes it could be.

Could I like the G6? Absolutely not.

nippononly

still suffers from Pontiac-ism inside, giving it a fairly disappointing interior. But the real thing about this model for me is that with its weight and long wheelbase combined with the base engine, there is really no "sportiness" at all, yet they push it as the "first ever G6" with all the Pontiac sport appeal. Uh uh, I'm not buying.

Now the Fusion is a little nicer inside, but with the same power (as G6) from the Duratec 3.0, I can't imagine it is a whole lot more of a joy to drive.

andys120

the Hummer H3 is selling well and probably saving
the bacon of Hummer dealerships.

Personally I think it looks better in the smaller package which makes it more practical for on or off-road use.

callmedrfill

And high gas prices, and general disinterest in trucky SUVs, it's very surprising to see it can move at all.

I dig the G6 style, but they seem to have run out of money for drivetrain or interior design.

I don't see any difference between the Fusion and G6. The Fusion spent on the interior, GM on the G6 exterior. They're both still bringing knives to a gunfight.

DrFill

anythngbutgm

I've been a fan of the Mazda 6 since inception. it's a good base for the Ford triplets IMO. And I really like the exterior design of the ford twins over the Copycat Solara look of the G6. Chrome accents and crisp body lines make the Fords look and feel much more substantial. A very well put together car. The new 3.5 Duratec should cure the triplets biggest (but not detrimental) flaw IMO.

goodegg

You're comparing a G6 to a TSX, EXV6, or Altima V6. Those cars are $10K more bro.

And if you're gonna get out of a car in 3 years why you buying American?

I've driven a loaded Fusion SEL twice now and, for a new highly touted model, its kinda lame. No power seat back? A shifter with either Drive or Lo? Lame Ford plastic? And they're not $19K either.

For the money the G6 is a good car.

bottgers

I never even said Kias were dangerous, let alone anything like "death traps." What I have said and still firmly believe is this; While the quality of Korean vehicles has improved over the last few years, they are still not at the same level in terms of build quality or reliability as the top Japanese vehicles (namely Hondas and Toyotas). I have also said and still believe the main reason Korean vehicles are selling so well is mainly because of their lower price and longer warranty. I have also said and still believe it's smarter and less expensive in the long run to pay more money up front for a Honda or a Toyota than it is to buy a less expensive Korean vehicle regardless of how long you plan to keep the vehicle. If you plan to sell or trade-in the vehicle in a short period of time, you're going to take much less of a loss on a Japanese vehicle than you would on a Korean make. If you're the type who keeps a vehicle until the wheels fall off, you're likely to experience fewer repair costs (and hassles) with a Japanese make as compared to a Korean vehicle. Where in any of this do I claim Kias are "death traps" or make any mention of anything even close to that?

jlawrence01

Anytime that you say *anything* negative about Hyundai/Kias on this forum - even when supported by evidence- the KyunKia lobby goes on the attack.

I have driven nearly every model and there are perhaps TWO models - the Accent and the Sonata - that are competitive quality-wise with similar US and Japanese models.

anythngbutgm

No, I was comparing a desirable model (to me) the GTP with a stick and a decent motor (3.9) to the 3 mentioned. Build a G6 on the Pontiac site. Option up to the same level as an Accord EXV6 for example...

Base MSRP = 24,835
Premium package (roof which BTW is an option on ALL G6's, wheels, CD optional??? Why?) = 1,650

G6 GTP Price per website = $25,985 On the P/B/G lots around here, these cars have a window sticker of 27,xxx (before red light giveaway)

Nevermind anyways, the 3.9 is a Pushrod, so really... NO thanks. But still, right on par with the asking price of the others. Far from 10 grand eh bro...?

lemko

How could one possibly get an objective opinion on a Pontiac from somebody named "anythingbutgm?" The car could be as good or better than a new Lexus LS430, come with an eternal warranty, and sell for as little as a ten year-old Kia and he'd still bash it. I wouldn't buy a G6 myself as I really don't like Pontiacs, (except for those big old Grand Villes!) but I've seen the car at the Buick-Pontiac dealer when my girlfriend bought her LaCrosse and the car seems light years ahead of the Grand Am. The car seems solidly constructed, has a much nicer interior, and nice even body panel gaps and decent fit and finish.

anythngbutgm

And just because the G6 comes with a standard V6 doesn't mean it's a screaming bargain either. The 3.5 is far from "sporty" and only available with a 4 speed slushbox. From the smoothness of the motor to the excellent steering, to the interior design and construction, the G6 has a LONG way to go before it is a competitor to the Accord.

Drive an Accord 4-cyl with a stick, you'll understand where I am coming from.

bottgers

.....and even then, the verdict is still out on the long term reliability of those two vehicles....

guss

when a good forum goes so far off track.

How is the Honda Ridgeline doing? I never see one on the steet.In a way it is nice to see Golieth take a little hit for once.

varmint

How is the Honda Ridgeline doing?

Sales are off target by about 6 or 7 percent.

anythngbutgm

I have owned alot of cars in my life, and I have driven 10x more. I have attended every single N.E. auto show for the past 10 years, Providence for 3, NY for the past 7 and Detroit twice. I look over everthing with a fine toothed comb and I give everything the criticism it deserves. I've spent weekends driving cars for fun just to see what is out there, it's called being an "enthusiast". I could work in sales for any brand out there (including GM) and I am completely objective in my opinions. I've given kudos for the Sky/ Solstice, and I've given props for the GTO. I'd give Kudos to a CTS if the interior design and workmanship weren't outclassed by a Kia Spectra...

BOT, The G6 is EXACTLY the example of all that is wrong with GM. It is TYPICAL GM cheap, it is TYPICAL GM laziness with powertrains, and it is quickly becoming TYPICAL GM to have to resort to red light specials just to move metal.

qbrozen

I've stated this on the Ridgeline forum, but i think its worth repeating ... just because they are selling less than Honda is accustomed to, does not mean they aren't selling. They've sold more Ridges than many other niche manufacturers sell of some of their best sellers. One that I like to compare to (only because its numbers i followed at the time) is the WRX. Subaru kept upping their production numbers for that first year ('02) because the car was a screaming success. In the end, they built and sold about 22K units (again, a HUGE success, according to subaru, and the only reason we proceeded to receive the STi and EVO). Honda has sold twice as many Ridges in its first year.

that said, honda is not too far off the number they projected when they developed it.

anythngbutgm

Speaking of Subaru's, I am surprised that the Baja isn't on the list. Even in Subaru haven N.E. the "Outback with a bed" is a rare sight. Great bargain on the used market!

varmint

The Baja was Subaru's 2004 flop.

The Tribeca is their flop for 2005. I dunno where sales are at the moment, but they've cut production by 50%. :surprise:

Wonder how they'll top that in 2006...

anythngbutgm

Wow, that bad huh? Ouch.

Might be time for a mid-cycle update to make the looks a little less controversial?

guss

how it is all relative. Hondas worst day tops Subaru's best.I know the platform is a little different than the Pilot, but I guess that volume will cover their costs.

Is it doing as well as the Titan,I see these all over the place.

lemko

...one of the few people to first sit in the then all-new Tribeca at the Philadelphia Auto Show. I got a cool "Seven Seats" T-shirt for the privilege. The interior is pretty cool, but the front-end is just too bizarre. It is also very expensive for a Subaru.

bottgers

Hence GM's financial woes....

varmint

To be fair, there's nothing wrong with the Tribeca ('cept the schnozz). It's just that Soob is late to the segment and the B9 doesn't bring enough to get noticed.

Subaru fans will kick me in the shins for this comparison, but when Honda came late to the SUV party they had the MDX on their arm... a striking date for its time. The Tribeca is competent, but doesn't standout in a room filled with attractive options. Might as well be invisible.

andre1969

Just for the record, let me make this perfectly clear (said waving my hands in the V for Victory sign :shades: ) that it wasn't my intent to bash the Koreans. In fact, I was trying to take some of the blame off of them and put it on the owner demographic! (not you, Chuck! :P )

And hey, I kinda like the Hyundai XG350. And the new Sonata.

Oh, on the subject of sales flops, I finally saw my first Tribeca today. First one on the road, at least. I saw the one at the Philly auto show. IIRC, in addition to that awful shnoz, I believe another popular complaint about them is that they're underpowered. Of course, they're not alone in that category, but it is another mark agains them, especially when they're trying to break into a new market.

anythngbutgm

The one thing I definitely wouldn't associate with the Tribeca... Invisible!

But your points are spot on. As much as Subie would like to believe "The end of the SUV as we know it, start of what one should be" it's tough to crack the typical Honda/Toyota buyer with a $mid-30's SUV. Not that I don't believe they can do it, or that the Tribeca is a bad entry, just that Subaru doesn't have the large "diehard" base looking for a full size SUV IMO.

Subie fans have always seemed to be marketed as the anti-SUV, those who believe an Outback can get 90% of the job done that a full size ute can do, and be more efficient while doing it. The Tribeca couldn't pull the same scheme off and instead just blended in (figuratively) as just another midsize Sport-ute.

varmint

The one thing I definitely wouldn't associate with the Tribeca... Invisible!

Yeah, I nose what you mean. No reason to get all snooty. :P

john_324

The oddness of the Tribeca front brings back memories of that strangely-designed vehicle, the 1980s Subaru XT.

That thing was wild...the jet-fighter joystick shifter, that asymmetric steering wheel...

andre1969

as a "poor man's exotic". That and the SVX. They were just so wild and futuristic looking. Well, what we thought of as futuristic back then...now that I look back on them I see a lot of Battlestar Galactica/Buck Rogers influence. :P

prosa

The interior is pretty cool, but the front-end is just too bizarre. It is also very expensive for a Subaru.

I know this has been hashed out at length on the Subaru boards, but I'm not conviced that price is the main reason behind the 'beca's slow sales. You can get a 5-seat non-leather 'beca for less than $30K + TTL. Some Outbacks are more. Granted, most of the vehicles sent to dealers are 7-seaters with leather and price well into the 30's, but Subaru could change the production mix if it thought doing so would boost sales. No, what I believe to be the case is that would-be SUV buyers who currently own vehicles other than Subarus don't think about the 'beca because Subaru is too much of a niche player with a sort of Captain Moonbeam reputation. And people who now own Subarus are by and large not the sort of people who want SUV's, indeed many of them chose other Subaru models as SUV alternatives.

edf4

Right on! I consider myself a loyal Subaru customer: my daily driver is the AWD Legacy Wagon 5 spd that we purchased new in 1995, which now has over 145,000 miles and which has had NO repair needs other than the usual maintainance requirements and a timing belt. However, when my wife and I recently went looking to replace an even older 1992 wagon due to our need now for a third row seat, we looked at the Tribeca, but were so put off by everything about it that we didn't even drive it. Subaru used to be the value company: great product for the money and nice styling. The Tribeca is the antithesis of this: high cost, stupid mandatory "luxury" features, automatic only, ugly styling, difficult access to the cramped third row, and too SUV-ish. As a result, we looked elsewhere and ended up purchasing a 2006 Mazda5, finding that it has all the characteristics which we had hoped to find in the Tribeca; great value for the money, nice styling and three rows of easily accessible seats. Although here in New England the Mazda would be better if it were AWD vs. front wheel drive, or had an available limited slip differential, (will be getting snow tires), it still beats the Tribeca hands down! Plus, the fact that we were able to get it with a 5 spd manual transmission, unavailable on the Tribeca, was topping on the cake. Subaru's are great cars, but with the Tribeca, the company clearly tried too hard to cash in on the luxury SUV buyer, and by doing so, lost sight of their core constituency, which is reflected in their poor sales numbers.

fitguy

A new Subaru dealership just opened down the street from us and every day I drive by those poor, Edsel-faced B-9's, sitting like an ugly orphan hoping for a home. No takers. I've seen only one in the neighborhood so far. If people want an SUV/Crossover, they go across the street and buy a Highlander or Pilot, even a Freestyle. For less money. Subie wasn't just late to the dance, they came wearing a green leisure suit. Too bad, the rest of their products are pretty neat, and fill a specific niche.

As for the G6, I REALLY wanted to like one last year when replacing my Accord. Wanted to go back to American-made, get a mid-size sedan with some sportiness. The styling gave me hope; but as others pointed out the typical GM fit/finish issues and old-parts-bin drivetrain were such a turnoff I didn't even drive one. The multi-pane sunroof looked really cool in the ads (I always get a sunroof) but if Pontiac can't assemble an interior properly, how long before the wonderfully complex sunroof starts leaking or just plain breaks? Too chancy. Ford had nothing, the Chrysler 300 was just a little too chunky. Ended up with a Mazda 6S Hatch and it's been a great car. Mazda is capturing some buyers that are just tired of the same-old, and I love Honda's, owned 3- just wanted something different.
Speaking of Ford- I see very few 2006 Explorers around MA, an area usually loaded with them. I know sales have tanked but the new Explorer's are the best yet- are they really selling so poorly in other regions?

nippononly

in one of the blogs that states the Explorer's sales are off by 52% vs this time last year. And that was the old model wasn't it? :surprise:

The one Tribeca I saw on the street in my area was quite some time ago now. Haven't seen it since, and they don't seem to be selling any at all. This, in an area where Outbacks and Foresters are around every corner. With a healthy sprinkling of WRXs.

And andre, jlawrence, bottgers, my remark wasn't specifically directed at any of you I swear! The death trap remark from a different poster was just kind of the point where the anti-Korean comments went over the top. I am not favorably impressed with the new Kia models either, and the new Sonata seems very decent, but time will tell the reliability story on all of these. Certainly, none are initially sales flops this year, although I think one or more of the Kias will be next year.

geo9

The ridgeline is floundering with a measly
25k units sold.

Not to mention the dismal Edmunds road test
where they blew out ALL 4 struts...........

Of course the honda faithful have been crying
FOUL with the "they flogged it too hard" excuse.

While forgetting the posts on another ridgeline
forum with other owners having strut problems
not to mention quite a few with major water leaks.

That very pricey puppy is soon to be a orphan along
with the subie baja...............

rroyce10

.... **How is the Honda Ridgeline doing? I never see one on the steet.In a way it is nice to see Golieth take a little hit for once .... **



Kinda like the Titan, they're kinda gettin' a little cold ... most dealers have a 60/90 day supply and you could probably buy one for around invoice, depending on the area of the country ....



Terry.

chuck1959

I was only offended by the statement that only people in the inner city with low income buy these cars. I was just pointing out the fact that higher income people drive them to....mostly for long commutes to and from work, for instanece.

Why else would anybody buy a death trap like that?

Driving a "death trap" or NOT when my time's up it's up!

chuck1959

It is also very expensive for a Subaru.

Just as the Pheonton for a VW

guss

was a good idea. Give suburbia a near truck with a lockable trunk and Honda reliability.

I guess where they missed the boat was the styling that is to similar to an Avalanche.

imidazol97

Does Ridgeline have the transmission failures and deficiency that other Hondas have had?

andre1969

Chuck, I suggest you go back and re-read that post I made. It's #130. I NEVER said that only people in the inner city with low incomes buy those cars. What I said was that a large portion of the buying demographic for Hyundais and Kias is people who either can't afford to, or are to cheap to take care of them. That is NOT the same thing as saying ONLY poor people buy them.

Like I made in my other analogy, it's like trying to say "A lot of old people buy Buicks" = "only old people buy Buicks". NOT TRUE! There were a lot of stupid people that went to my high school...that doesn't mean that only stupid people went to my high school! :P

varmint

"Explorer's sales are off by 52% vs this time last year."

Your post kinda makes it sound like Ford is off by 52% for the year. (I don't think that's what you meant.) Explorer sales were off by 59% in October when compared with last October. They off by 52% for November. But those are monthly figures.

Dunno when the '06 arrived at dealerships, but those numbers should include all Explorer sales.