Sales Flops of 2005

bottgers

Like I said, when I start seeing Hyundais still on the road with 200K+ miles, I'll start believing. Until then, they're still unproven.

carguy58

"Like I said, when I start seeing Hyundais still on the road with 200K+ miles, I'll start believing. Until then, they're still unproven."

Like Hyundai says in their ad solgans "Driving is Believing". I'm just being sarcastic though.

lemko

...my brother was happy with his 2000 Sonata, but I forgot to ask him how many miles he put on it. I'm sure it was nothing close to 200K. He does still have my old 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue that had something like 235K on it the last time I checked.

falconone

You are joking about the Aveo right??

gotenks243

"Like I said, when I start seeing Hyundais still on the road with 200K+ miles, I'll start believing. Until then, they're still unproven."

How's 621,000 miles?

http://www.northpeel.com/br/business/story/3065957p-3556772c.html

When my dad tells me about always getting a new car every few years in the 60s and 70s, back when odometers rolled over at 100,000 miles and very few would dare keep a car that long, it makes me think how there isn't a bad car you can buy anymore in 2005. I bet even Aveos will be seen on the road for many years ahead... and be safer and emit less than anything from back then.

Or, in other words, a 2005 flop is still probably a better vehicle than a 1985 hit.

Mike

prosa

VW's are getting too expensive for their price. They are not even as reliable as some Domestic Big 3 makes let alone the Japanese and yet they cost more to own. Their styling has gone downhill. I was a 02-05 Passat fan but the new Passat just doesn't look as sleek as the 02-05 model and the new Jetta looks like a Toyota Corolla. VW's plan to go upmarket is backfiring in my opinion

Base model Jettas and Passats are not particularly overpriced when compared to the competition. It's just that finding a base model is like finding a needle in a hay stack, as almost all the models on dealer lots are loaded up with extensive options packages.

guss

I can not believe it is still selling in any numbers. It definitely gets my vote for one of the ugliest cars sold today. With the Camaro gone you would think Chevy could have put a better effort in filing the 2 door coupe niche.

Maybe it's an emperors new clothes thing because a friend of mine has a 2000 MC. He only buys 2 door American made coupe and he thinks it's the best out there, Well,duh that market is very limited(until the new 'Stang came out anyway).

bottgers

You are absolutely right about cars today being much better than they were 20 years ago, and it's pretty amazing to see ANY type of car with 600K+ miles! However, my brother-in-law works a an auto dealership and gets a first hand view of all the used vehicles they take in. He says the Japanese vehicles they get in (mainly the Hondas and Toyotas) are much nicer vehicles than those of other makes with a comparable amount of miles. He said it's not uncommon to take in a Honda or a Toyota with 200K+ miles that still runs and drives almost like a new vehicle. He also says it's very rare for them to take in any Korean vehicle with 100K+ miles that's not ready for the junkyard. They just don't hold up as well over the long term in large numbers like the Japanese vehicles do.

rroyce10

.... **There seems to be a huge following of people ..**

Actually, there isn't a huge following ... of course we have a few posters that will start posting at 6am and spend the next 18 hours of their day trying to push their point with 50+ posts ..l.o.l...

Like my Great Grand Daddy used to say: "loud and obnoxious doesn't make you right" -- "it just makes you loud and obnoxious" ....

That said .... Hyun/Kia still has a looooooooong way to go ...



Terry.

bottgers

You're preachin' to the chior, man. I just thought I'd warn you of the pending onslaught....

andre1969

who had a 1987 or so Hyundai Excel that made it to around 175,000 or so miles. It looked like it had gone through half of them on life support though, and really was ready to be shot.

I also know someone who had a '94 Civic that went through two head gaskets and needed a/c work by the 80,000 mile mark.

That being said, I'd still probably take my chances with a Civic! :P Although truthfully, I don't know that I'd be afraid of a Hyundai/Kia nowadays. I'd still probably just go with the name value and the integrity/resale value it possesses.

lemko

...from my Mom that my brother bought a new car, I asked her what kind. My mother, unfamiliar with cars said, "I don't know, something that starts with an "H." I immediately said, "Honda." She said, "No, not Honda." I asked, "Hyundai?" "That's it," replied Mom. I thought my brother was nuts for taking a chance like that. However, things did turn out well for him, that was until he went to trade it in and they offered him only $2,000 for a 5 year-old car in excellent condition. My brother raised a hullabaloo as he was insulted.

nippononly

is a pretty nice beast, just beat the (five year old, new model due March '06) Camry in a four-way thingie in C&D.

Now OTOH, I was at the auto show Friday, and the new Spectra 5 (wait, was it the Rio 5? which has a "5" on the end?) has the crappiest shifter of almost anything I touched at the show, feels NOTICEABLY cheap everywhere you look, and had a sticker of $15K!! For that price I can think of so many choices you have that are way nicer for pretty much the same money, starting with the Scions and the base Matrix. And soon the Yaris, Fit, and Versa, I guess. Heck, check out a Focus ZX5, not my favorite car, but better put together than the Kia for that price.

The new Spectra aint all that, neither is the Rio really, except Rio is still the least expensive car around, so expect a couple of sales duds at best for Kia next year with these two.

carguy58

"He says the Japanese vehicles they get in (mainly the Hondas and Toyotas) are much nicer vehicles than those of other makes with a comparable amount of miles. He said it's not uncommon to take in a Honda or a Toyota with 200K+ miles that still runs and drives almost like a new vehicle. He also says it's very rare for them to take in any Korean vehicle with 100K+ miles that's not ready for the junkyard. They just don't hold up as well over the long term in large numbers like the Japanese vehicles do."

I agree Honda and Toyota's and even some Mazda's are pretty reliable but the Koreans(pariculary Hyundai) just started getting their build quality up. Since the release of the 01 Santa Fe, 01 Elantra, and 02 Sonata Hyundai has had their quality up. The 03 Tiburon and 05 Tuscon didn't have good first model years(from Cr reliability stats) but the Tiburon has rebounded and I think the Tuscon's build quality will rebound as well in its second year of bodystyle. Jd Powers 3 year survey put them on the middle of the pack in reliability and CR rates them favorably. I am curious to see how the Sonata fares in its first year of bodystyle reliability wise since its the first car that Hyundai is building in the US in their new Alablama plant.

carguy58

is a pretty nice beast, just beat the (five year old, new model due March '06) Camry in a four-way thingie in C&D."

I'll tell you I thought that would be next car but the new Sonata but it doesn't look as good in person as it does in the magazines and in the TV commercials. The front of it is cool but the back while not offensive is just bland. I'll wait for the next Mazda 6 or 3, Honda Accord, or even Toyota Solara that is if Toyota can ever get its styling straightened out.

nippononly

the new Sonata looks clean like 90s Japanese clean. So it's a decent look, but perhaps a decade behind.

And speaking of the Tiburon, was staggered to see like a HALF DOZEN of these at the auto show (more than any other Hyundai model on display in their section), yet no-one buys these in the real world, do they? Talk about a sales flop, and that is saying something in a segment where the volume leaders are lucky to break 50K (except the Mustang) a year.

My local dealer never stocks them at all.

carguy58

"the new Sonata looks clean like 90s Japanese clean. So it's a decent look, but perhaps a decade behind."

The styling is 98 626 and 98 Altima like which isn't good. I think they are making a mid to late 90's Mazda and Nissan mistake and trying to go head to head with Toyota which will backfire. I thought the best looking Sonata were the 96-98 or was that 96-99? I remember the Sonata got a whole redesign in 2000 with the buggy eyed look on the front end and got a new back end restyling as well. In 02 the Sonata got another redesign. I just hope Hyundai just stays in a 5 yr model cycle just like every other manufacturer. Redesigning cars 2-4 years(unless you are 80s-mid 90's Honda) your vehicle will face steep depreciation in terms of resale value.

"And speaking of the Tiburon, was staggered to see like a HALF DOZEN of these at the auto show (more than any other Hyundai model on display in their section), yet no-one buys these in the real world, do they? Talk about a sales flop, and that is saying something in a segment where the volume leaders are lucky to break 50K (except the Mustang) a year."

I think they sell 2,000 tibby;s a month in the US. I mean the current Tibby came out as an 03 model I think in early or mid 02 so its been on the market for awhile. I think the Tibby was refreshed for 05 but I don't see alot of 05 Tibby's around. The 03-04 Tibby's I like the look of them though. Nice cockpit too! Just small though in size. On the road you will probably see a small number of 03 and 04 Tibbys but no 05's really. I think the tibby is in Hyundai's line-up just for show and tell towards young buyers to maybe get them into the showroom.

varmint

I'm also impressed with the new Sonata, but you can't always use mag reviews as a gauge for success. I recall a three-way comparo from years back which pitted the Accord and XG350 (plus one other car) against each other. The XG won.

But how many people are reading this message and asking, "what's an XG?" A flop from another year.

The NEW Hyundais seem to be quality products. Easily as good as the domestics, if not better. But it will take a while for them to reach the same level of recognition for quality which is shared by Toyota and Honda. Perception always lags behind reality... and I'm not convinced they've reached the same level in reality, just yet.

prosa

I think the tibby is in Hyundai's line-up just for show and tell towards young buyers to maybe get them into the showroom.

Hyundai has a pretty good following among younger buyers and I doubt the Tiburon makes much of a difference. It's got a more "with it" image than most domestic makes and of course most Hyundai models are competitively priced. Volkswagen and Mitsubishi have the youngest average buyer age of all brands in the United States, even lower than Scion, and I'll bet that Hyundai isn't far behind.
Speaking of Scion, if anything's hurting Tiburon sales it's probably competition from the tC.

john_324

I have a soft spot in my heart for them, even if I'd never buy one of the current ones. I think it stems from growing up with the square ones of the 1980s...I still like those...

I wonder if they had a V8 available across the line, instead of just in the SS, if they'd sell better? :confuse: Doesn't have to be particularly powerful one, just with enough torque to light up the tires at a light. Seems to be more in character with the car than a V6...

bottgers

Was long term testing part of the C&D test thingie? I thought not.

bottgers

There are always exceptions to the rule, and your examples are just that.

bottgers

What was the hullabaloo all about? It's long been a well known fact that the value of Korean vehicles drops to just about nothing the day they're driven off the lot. There's no free lunch and vehicles are no exception to the rule. You can pay now or later, either way, you're gonna pay. I choose to pay now by buying a brand of KNOWN quality, and not have to eat dirt sandwiches when it comes time to trade-in or sell.

andre1969

John, I'm kind of the same way. I'd probably never buy a newer one (although the '06 is easier on the eye, and might be a good value used), but I've always been a fan of the midsize/fullsize 2-door car. IMO, they're just easier to get in and out of because of the larger doors, and visibility is often better because the B-pillar is further back.

I like the old 80's style, as well. I had an '86 Monte that my Mom bought new and gave to me in 1998. I only had it around 3 months, but it was a good car. Just the right size inside and out, decent handling, and a good blend of performance and fuel economy with the mild 305-4bbl. Still running strong when it got t-boned at 192,000 miles.

Having an available V-8 across the line might help. Like maybe a de-tuned version of the 5.3? Or the 4.8? It would be cool to be able to get a base version with a V-8. That would also remind me of my old '86 a bit, which was just a base model but had the optional 305.

Funny thing is, nowadays the Monte with the 3.5 is probably quicker from 0-60 than my '86 with the 305. And the 3.9 is probably about as quick as the old SS from back then. But there's just something about a V-8 grumble that you can't match with a V-6.

john_324

I think you're spot on re the V8 distinction.

I think for the average American, car "power" is all about low-end torque. What they want is an engine that will allow them to blast from stoplight to stoplight quickly (or at least feels that way), while sounding purposeful doing it.

After all, that's the kind of driving most people do on a day-to-day basis. Sure, most of us here like and want high-reving, racetrack-style engines that make power continuously at high rpms, but we're not most people.

Heck, in the Mustang world, plenty of people still prefer the old 5.0 V8 engine because even though the 4.6 is more powerful, the 5.0 "feels" faster because of all the low-end torque. The 5.0 seems to jump off the line compared to the 4.6, whose power is more distributed in the rpm band.

I think having even a weak V8 in the mix at the lower levels would help the Monte's sales, esp. with the crowd it targets.

chuck1959

The way I keep cars (10+) the Korean...specifically Kia..are perfect cars for me.

bottgers

How do you figure? If you're going to keep a car until basically the wheels fall of, wouldn't you want the one that's going to last the longest and give you the least amount of problems along the way?

andre1969

that Hyundais and Kias often tend to get beat up and look junky faster than other cars. I think a lot of it is because they have a large demographic of cheap/poor people, who are either unwilling or unable to take good care of the car. Around these parts, the only time I see an ad for a Hyundai/Kia dealer, it's a screamer ad and they're targeting bankruptcies, "your job is your credit" promises, and so on. Often these things end up in inner cities and poor neighborhoods where they just get abused and banged up. And if people are stretching just to be able to afford the car payments, chances are they're not going to be able to spring for the maintenance. Or, you get the type of people that are just cheap, and could afford the maintenance, but figure "hey, it's a cheap car and practically worthless, so I'm not about to pop for $19.95 for an oil change!"

For the most part though, I think if you buy one, take reasonable care of it, and don't beat up on it, you'll get years of good service out of it. Even if it ends up being worthless by the time you get rid of it, there's a chance you still might have saved money compared to purchasing a higher priced car that helds its value better. For instance, if you buy a $20K car that's worth $5K after 10 years, or a $15K car that's worth zero, it's a toss up.

goodegg

Mitsubishi - what's up with them? They seem to be floundering. And is Isuzu still breathing? They abandoned cars for trucks a while back and its biting em in the butt.

martian

I have rented several Korean-made cars, and it appears to me that they use cheap interior materials-including thinner-guage metal stampins, cheap fabrics, carpets, etc. I think they have targetted their demographic market, and decided that the buyers of these cars are going to wreck them long before the 100,000 mile warranty is up. They have studued the low-end American market, and they are correct-stuff is never repaired or maintained-just thrown away and replaced. Its is like the shoes and clothes you see in WALMART-nobody resoles walmart shoes-or even sewsa rip in a walmart shirt-you just throw it out. Which is part and parcel of what is wrong with the US today-we don't buy anything with an expectation of it lasting-although who knows-maybe the WALMART model is correct?

nippononly

Now that Isuzu has taken on two versions of the mediocre Colorado truck (freshly rebadged with little "Isuzu"s on the grille, of course), annual sales should jump from 10 to AT LEAST 20. :-P

They do have the amazing warranty - one wonders how Isuzu can afford to warrant Chevy trucks for 100K miles when Chevy itself doesn't deem them worthy of longer than 3/36.

Mitsubishi had its first month this fall that was NOT worlds lower than last year in sales. They may be finally stopping the slide. Of course, that is not the same thing as a turnaround. They have to increase sales a loooooong way to get back to sales levels from, like, 2002. With forgettable sedans (except the Evo) and forgettable trucks (except the Endeavor, which from my little peek at it appears to be a fairly competitive, nice vehicle), all they have going for them is the new Eclipse (which didn't explode onto the scene but is selling decently enough I guess) and, like Isuzu, a good warranty.

Don't look for either of these brands to be fully repaired before December 2006.

andre1969

that GM would get a clue and start offering a longer warranty on their vehicles. I mean, honestly, if Hyundai has been able to do a 10 year warranty for what seems like ages now, and Chrysler could offer 7/70K on a K-car of all things, you'd think that a long warranty on a new car would be a sure thing. It would give the buyer peace-of-mind, but at the same time probably wouldn't cost the manufacturer all that much more in claims, anyway. Usually, the components that are covered in the warranty aren't things that fail en masse, anyway.

prosa

Around these parts, the only time I see an ad for a Hyundai/Kia dealer, it's a screamer ad and they're targeting bankruptcies, "your job is your credit" promises, and so on.

Easy credit practices were a large part of why Mitusbishi's now in difficult straits.

bumpy

Isuzu has been buying out GM's ownership stake for a few years now. Couple that and a free-trade agreement with Thailand (which would negate the chicken tax) and Isuzu could bring over the truck lineup it sells just about everywhere outside of the US.

splatsterhound

Okay, just scanned these messages, and people are right about one thing: The previous gen. Monte Carlo was a butt-ugly car, and ugly interior too. Nothing special about the engine (other than reliable).
So, a week ago I walk through a Chevy dealership and I see a new 06 SS Monte. I stop and wonder why it doesn't look so dog-ugly. I open the door and look at the interior: huge improvement. Very nice leather and simple, dare I say elegant?, gauges. I circle the car and obviously the front has been improved big-time, but even the crappy rear has been -- I don't know -- improved a lot. The stupid cursive "Supercharged" stuff is gone. The taillights are much better. The 18 wheels fill it out much better.

My wife sees it and she says "I like that." She knows nothing about cars. Nothing. She only likes 'em if they're expensive ('what's that?' 'A Porsche, honey').

I was so intrigued that I got an 05 Monte brochure and an 06 Monte brochure and compared 'em.

All I can say is that the car is like a zitty girl with braces who comes back after summer vacation with no zits, no braces and (sorry, ladies) a nice set of lumps on her chest.

So go figure. I never ever EVER would have considered driving an older Monte but now the new one is on the shopping list (We need a car that can fit three kids in the back, but my wife insists she wants SPORTY car with a powerful engine and a trunk).

andys120

I'm seeing a lot of advertising for Saab's 9-7 that was supposed to be a savior for dealers hunger for a Saab-badged SUV but I don't see any on the road.

Central-New Hampshire is Saab Country and what isn't a Saab, Volvo or Subaru is more
than likely a truck.

None of 'em are 9-7s. If it doesn't sell here it probably won't sell anywhere.

bottgers

But there's still the issue of how many times a vehicle needs repairs over its lifetime. The $20K/$5K vehicle ends up being less expensive (and less inconvenient) to own over the lifetime of the vehicle than the $15K/$0 vehicle if it requires fewer repairs.

saablcp

The 9-7's initial intro was to be April of '05...dealers in fact did not receive their first vehicles until late June.Production was less than 1,500 vehicles for the entire U.S.A market.'06 models were again delayed in production due to a supplier issue and just started showing up at dealers this month.I would suggest that the fact you haven't seen many on the road is more a function of there haven't BEEN any to sell as opposed to them being a marketing failure.Reviews of the vehicle have been very positive.

guss

I agree, a little tweak here and there and the Monte actually looks nice.

Did Bob Lutz have anything to do with the changes?

andre1969

when I first saw an '06 Impala on display at the Philly auto show, I was actually impressed! It's amazing how much difference a little tweaking here and there can do.

splatsterhound

I don't know if Lutz had anything to do with it. I can guess he did. I'm still surprised at how much I like the changes. Am I smoking wacky tabbacy here? Anyone else actually see an 06 Monte up close and agree with me? (esp. the SS).

stmss

I have not seen any on the road either despite my local Saab dealer having a few (don't know if 05 or 06). Having looked at one to replace my wifes Volvo wagon and to compliment my 9-5 I would say the 9-7 (or at least this version of it) will be a failure. What market is this vehicle after - certainly not Saab owners?

lemmer

I saw someone driving one the other day. I really thought it looked good in comparison with the Trailblazer/Envoy. Why GM saves their better looking designs for an SUV that nobody will buy, I don't know.

andys120

What market is this vehicle after - certainly not Saab owners?

Actually yes. GM marketing stats show that ex-%age of Saab owners also have an SUV so their rationale is why not offer them a Saab SUV. As a three-time Saab owner I don't get it. I thought a Saab was what you got if you wanted a roomy all-weather vehicle but didn't want a truck.

A similar rationale gave birth to the Porsche
Cayenne, currently piling up on dealer lots.

rroyce10

... **A similar rationale gave birth to the Porsche
Cayenne, currently piling up on dealer lots .... **

And the service departments ........

Terry.

jrosasmc

Has the Cayenne exhibited some glitches that have caused it to be unreliable?

chuck1959

Often these things end up in inner cities and poor neighborhoods where they just get abused and banged up.

That's the biggest line of crap I ever heard. I'm offended!! Gee I didn't know I lived in the wrong neighborhood. My nighborhood of 5,000 people is mid to upper middle class and there are Hyundias and Kia all over the place! Did you ever think maybe people have long commutes and want a car like this?......It not just the cheap/poor people buying these cars! I owe 2 Kias (2002 and 2004 Rio Cincos).

I know a lot of people that will not spring for a $19.95 oil change and they drive expensive cars.

andre1969

obviously, not EVERYONE who buys a Hyundai/Kia is cheap/poor/lives in a bad neighborhood. Not everyone who buys a Buick or Lexus ES330 has one foot in the nursing home door either, but that doesn't disprove the fact that they have a strong appeal to older buyers.

Heck, about 3-4 years ago my uncle considered a Hyundai or Kia because he wanted a cheap economy car to run into the ground for his long commute to work, to keep the miles off his truck. He ended up going with a Toyota Corolla, not because he was afraid of reliability, but at the time the Corolla was EPA rated much better in highway fuel economy.

I've also known people who bought Toyotas, never changed the oil, and they self-destructed when they couldn't take it anymore, so neglectful people can end up with all brands. In high school I had a friend whose father had a '72 Dart and he did the same thing!

But still, Hyundais and Kias are, by and large, entry-level products, and the dealers often employ seductive, predatory financing on them to get people into them that really can't afford them. It doesn't mean EVERY SINGLE Hyundai/Kia buyer is in that situation.

A lot of people also buy them simply because they don't want to spend a lot of money on a car, and they don't think a Honda/Toyota is worth the premium. But now, if ya wanna get technical, isn't that one definition of "cheap". I guess you could also call it "financially prudent", but that's just a fancy term for cheap! Cheap isn't always something to be ashamed of, either. Heck, back over the summer I thought about getting a new truck, with all the employee pricing and stuff going on, but in the end decided to sink around $900 into my old '85 Silverado because, well, I'm cheap! :P Although the final verdict is out on whether that decision ends up being penny wise and pound foolish, because soon after that $900 repair, it went back for $250 worth of carb/choke work, and now the windshield wipers are acting squirelly, and I swear I smelled antifreeze last nite.

Anyway, don't most of the consumer rags like CR, CG, etc usually give pretty high marks to Hyundais these days?

rroyce10

... **and the dealers often employ seductive, predatory financing on them to get people into them that really can't afford them. It doesn't mean EVERY SINGLE Hyundai/Kia buyer is in that situation .**



Good post .. blunt, but honest .......



Terry.

PS: as my Great grand Daddy used to say: "economically minded" :surprise:

lemko

My brother owns a new Hyundai Sonata and is married and has been a homeowner longer than me. He isn't rich as he's a junior high teacher, but he's hardly impoverished. As far as I know his credit is good and has no unsecured debt. He's just not an auto enthusiast like me. His passion is fishing.

However, living in Philadelphia and seeing the ads for Hyundai-Kia dealers airing between takes of Jerry Springer and Maury Povich leads me to believe they are targeting the poor and/or credit-challenged. The Cherry Hill Triplex - a purveyor of Hyundais, Kias, and Mitsus is notorious for these screamer ads.

I'd say Mitsubishis are more popular in the poorer neighborhoods when I've been through them. Ironically, there are a lot of dealers of high-end used imports in many marginal neighborhoods. Therefore, you're as likely to see a used Mercedes or Lexus as well as a new Kia or Hyundai in any poor neighborhood.