Sales Flops of 2005

lemko

...in a given zip code is $9 billion if Bill Gates lives there on an estate with 10 minimum wage Wal-Mart workers in a nearby trailer park.

imidazol97

The question in #242 was mean and average and their meanings. They are the same.

You are right that median is the middle number or middle of the numbers if there are an even number of pieces of data.

Range is the difference between the highest and lowest piece of data.

qbrozen

I like both numbers, because an unfortunate skewing can happen with medians, too. For example, a sample of 5 buyers could be 18, 18, 45, 45, and 45. Now your median is 45, which completely discounts the 2 18-year-olds.

snakeweasel

Just to add my 2 cents worth.

In statistics there is also something called "mode" which is the number that occurs most frequently.

In short given these numbers 20 25 25 30 40 50 60

Your Mean = 35.7
Your Median = 30
Your Mode = 25

According to Websters all are considered the average.

Average Noun - 1a. a single value (as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values.

booyahcramer

Taking this a step further....

Since we are talking about a relatively high number (in comparison to examples shown) of purchases, the difference between median and mean should be immaterial.....

But I do know Kia's sales numbers are falling.

snakeweasel

Sorry I disagree with you, even with relatively high numbers the difference between the mean and medium is only immaterial if the values are equally distributed between the low and high numbers. But if the numbers are skewed to either the high end or the low end then the difference can very much be material.

As for Kia I thought it was reported that Kia's sales were up from last years pace. How is that falling?

goodegg

I would bet the distribution of sales numbers would not be skewed one way or the other when we're talking about 10's of thousands , or more, events.

I think the drop in sales of 14% For Kias in Nov 05 vs Nov 04 is what is being referred to here. In the face of high gas prices too. Not a good sign. Also CR's shot at Kia.

calhon

The V50 is not a flop in the USA. The target for the first year was 6,000 and they have sold 5,313 this year as of the end of November. Remember, the total USA market for wagons is quite small. In comparison, the V50's predecessor, the V40, only sold 2,949 units in 2003, its last full calendar year.

Worldwide sales of the V50 in 2004 were 47,743, including:

Germany 8,001
Sweden 7,878
Italy 5,512
Netherlands 4,271
Britain 3,547
USA 2,515 (Partial year with 1,513 V40)

On the other hand, the US accounted for 19,419 of 53,085 new generation S40 sold worldwide. The next closest market was Sweden with 4,202. Europeans prefer the wagon over the sedan.

I have no figures for 2005, but an insider at the factory reported in another forum that they were told recently to cut total S40/V50 production by 6,000 units.

http://www.volvocars.com/AboutVolvo/CorporateInfo/Sales/

fitguy

I'm curious- what does that mean for the S40? I tried one last year and it was ok but I wasn't overly impressed; now I see very few on the road. Did it flop by Volvo projections?

calhon

S40 sales came in below expectations but definitely not a flop. The first year US target was 28,000 and I assume that means for the first 12 months. Sales started in earnest in Apr '04 and as of the end of Mar '05, they had sales of 26,000, about 7% below target. The old S40 had sales of 13,058 in 2003.

guss

I bet the new Mazda 3 stole away alot of their sales. Same basic car for 2/3's the price.

qbrozen

Well, all depends on how you look at it. I guess since Volvo only project 6k V50s, then it did ok by their book, but 6k sales of any car (other than an exotic) is extremely low. After all, didn't Toyota kill the Celica when it dropped to 6K in the US? (if i'm remembering that number correctly)

For something like the V50, I would think Volvo wouldn't find it makes money at numbers like that. However, with nearly 50k worldwide, that's better news and probably means it will continue production. I just hope they continue to import it here.

lemmer

Proved for the 10 millionth time - Americans don't like station wagons. I do, but I am in the minority.

My boss drives an X5. He thinks 5-series wagons are for dorks, but the X5 is the coolest vehicle money can buy - go figure. I think that is pretty typical for Americans.

qbrozen

Unfortunate, but true.

Personally, I don't have one, either, but I want one. Thing is, I buy used for myself and since they have just recently been coming back to the states, I have to wait a couple of years yet.

Then again, if a diesel wagon in one of my preferred makes comes along .....

lemmer

My wife loves BMWs and likes station wagons, but it is hard to convince her to buy a 3-series wagon that cost more than an Acura MDX.

qbrozen

ugh, don't even get me started on bimmer prices ... besides, then it would just start an argument from the bimmer faithful.

I like them, don't get me wrong, but, like your wife, can't justify spending that kinda $$.

But... lemme expand on that a bit. I think most sportwagons we are seeing are overpriced. And maybe that's the American perception in general(??). I LIKE the V50, A3, and 3-series wagon ... but over $30large?? No thanks!

And, yes, before anyone jumps in, I KNOW I can get, for instance, a volvo below that ... but not one that I would want. My habit as of late has been to buy pretty loaded up vehicles off lease for cheap. The only new car I've found to be a decent bargain are Accords ... and they don't give us a wagon.

So, although these wagons sell poorly here ... when is a manufacturer going to give us a different type of wagon??

Wait... ya know what... scratch that. I think the Mazda3 is a GREAT offering, and VERY close to what I would want ... but where the heck is the power seat??!! Good grief, you give us NAV but no power seat??! What is a 6'5" guy to do??

Give me a MazdaSpeed3 with power leather heated seats for... let'say $26k?

anythngbutgm

Unfortunately, even Lexus thinks that they can command the exhorbatant $$$ that BMW asks for the new 3 series. Even a Base model IS 250 is 32 grand, while a IS350 is at 44k! Makes the G35 and TL look like much better values when compared to those two... Ugh.

lemmer

We had one new Bimmer - a 2000 323i.

We went to the dealer in Orlando just for fun. At that time, the cars were hot; they had no demos and no stock. They came off the trucks and into a customers hands.

Anyway, BMW was having a supply problem with automatic transmissions. So they had a package deal - if you would be willing to take a manual transmission (the only way we would take one), they would throw in about $2500 worth of options for something like $400. I remember it included a sunroof, CD player, center console (ooh generous BMW), and some other stuff.

We were standing there when the truck pulled up full of ordered cars and one equipped with the special package that was not sold. We bought it on the spot for MSRP. It was nicely equipped for $28,200 (I think that was the number).

Anyway, the $40,000 3-series freaks me out.

lemmer

That is how I ended up with a G35. I would have considered another base 5-speed 325i, but those don't exist around here.

alpha01

A 43K IS350 (the max you can get in the Philly area from the factory) is as loaded as you can get it though.

And FWIW, Lexus doesnt "think" it can sell at this pace- it IS.

The cheaper TSX sold 1300 units last month, and the larger more mainstream TL sold 6100 units. The IS models sold 4400 units, more than splitting the difference between those two.

Lexus has stated its entry market is a two offering space: the luxo-oriented ES and the sport-oriented IS. I predict that once the ES is redesigned next Spring, this lineup will be very formidable. As it stands last month, combined TSX/TL sales were already behind combined IS/ES sales (7400 units vs. 9000)

Interesting stuff.

~alpha

lemko

Rich fools and their money. I recall a time Lexus was a cost-effective alternative to Mercedes and BMW and now they're playing the same game. No way would I pay $43.5K for an IS.

ghulet

Then again, a friend of mine was just RAVING about the current Acura RL; I just can't get too excited about a $50k Acura sedan, especially as bland-looking as it is, sorry.

calhon

Keep in mind that the V50 is essentially identical to the S40 except for body style. They also share platform with the Mazda3, the Euro Ford Focus and the new C70. That makes a huge difference w.r.t economies of scale.

nwng

and the much more versatile mazda5

qbrozen

well, sure, but there still must be significant costs with the dedicated body and interior parts. Its obviously not as expensive as a whole new car, but not free, either.

lemmer

Agreed

Some makers say the cost of federalizing a vehicle with no changes other than a manual transmission isn't cost effective for only a few thousand vehicles.

qbrozen

ah, yes, federalizing. thank you for pointing that out. i actually thought of that when i posted a few days ago about the V50, but forgot to mention it. AND, it made me wonder if they will bother jumping through the hoops the next time the revise the wagon if sales over the next couple of years stay this low.

lemko

...I've seen federalizing ruin the looks of nice-looking imports. Look at the grotesque headlamp assemblies for 1980s Rolls-Royces and remember the rubber-nosed MGs? Early W126 S-Classes also had awkward headlamp assemblies.

lemmer

Z cars too. Funny thing is, in some models, the first modification people made was to remove the bumpers completely and leave nothing in their place (or replace them with little nerf bars on VWs).

stockmanjoe

I never understood what the heck VW made the Phaeton for. Who in their right mind would buy a 100K VW? I guess pretty much no body.

carguy58

"I bet the new Mazda 3 stole away alot of their sales. Same basic car for 2/3's the price."

I don't think anybody is going to cross-shop a Volvo S40 with a Mazda 3. The S40 I myself would compare to a Honda Accord or Mazda 6. The S40's direct competition is more like the Lexus IS, Acura TSX, Saab 9-3, and maybe the Audi A4.

carguy58

"Then again, a friend of mine was just RAVING about the current Acura RL; I just can't get too excited about a $50k Acura sedan, especially as bland-looking as it is, sorry."

I don't get why the RL is always whacked for bland styling. There is nothing eye catching about the Lexus Ls430 styling and the 5 Series is overstyled in my opinion. The Cadillac STs looks conservative as well. I don't think the 96-98 RL is eye catching but the styling has aged very well in my opinion for a 10 year old design.

nippononly

look to Acura's own line for the answer to your question. You go to the dealer and the RLs are like the invisible background that the TLs and TSXs are parked against. Give me TL's chiseled styling over the RL's "inoffensive generic Japanese sedan" motif any day.

gagrice

Need I mention the all-new Jetta, the car that was going to "grow up" the VW image overnight?

You may be a bit premature in tossing dirt on the Jetta coffin. As of the end of Nov. Jetta sales are up 15% over 2004. I personally like the old style Jetta & Passat. But I see the new ones everywhere.

bottgers

You must think the Scion xB is a nice looking ride if you think the RL is bland looking. The RL is a beautiful car, though I wouldn't say it's worth $50K.

ghulet

I do think the xB is cool and a great design overall, though I guess 'nice looking' would be a stretch for all but the blind, IMO. I don't think the RL is ugly or unattractive, just doesn't really catch my eye. I'm also not too fond of the almost-bustleback trunk styling. It doesn't help that Acura can't seem to build the car in colors other than black, blue, silver or charcoal gray, though clearly they're not the only manufacturer guilty of building cars in super-boring colors.

aquaticexplore

in which case, you would probably be interested in the mode (single highest frequency group).

aquaticexplore

some of your stats are misleading. The TSX has been selling at between double and triple your quoted rate. They had changeover in model years which apparently limited supply. Check web sites that provide sales #'s. TSX has been selling about 3000 every month until last month.

IS is way overpriced for a pretend BMW.

lemko

The RL is a very nice car at $35K, but at $50K it is out of its league. The RL name doesn't cut it like "Legend" did. Everybody has heard of an Acura Legend, but "RL" sounds very anonymous.

andys120

Agreed, and it doesn't help that the cars hitherto dubbed "Acura RL" were all extremely boring

lemko

...Q45s did Infiniti sell this year? Any figures? Funny that the Q sells so poorly when it is just as good as a Lexus LS430.

210delray

Only about 1,000 as I recall, through Novemeber at least. Pretty sad. Then again, the new M35/M45 has been hot.

nippononly

even keep the Q on the market at 1000 sales a year?

gagrice - there was a boom of OLD Jetta sales earlier this year, being sold on the cheap to clear out stock as the new car was arriving. I don't dispute that Jetta sales will end up higher for the year than 2004, but I don't think that is on the wings of a fabulous new model. I think we will see the sales drop lower than 2004 levels for CY 2006.

lemmer

I noticed that the RL has a $5,400 spread between MSRP and invoice. That is pretty huge, and I bet people are paying pretty close to invoice. The RL might look a little more competitive if they dropped the MSRP down to closer to the selling price.

210delray

Good point on the Jetta. The typical sales figures reported in the trade press don't break out sales by model year, so there will be a mix of current and last year's models, at least until the prior model year's stock runs out.

On a related note, it's interesting that sales of new 2004 Oldsmobile Aleros, Bravadas, and Silhouettes were still continuing well into calendar year 2005.

andre1969

I know they're just about polar opposites, but since it was brought up...

I'd hardly call the xB a thing of beauty, but it is at least functional, reasonably priced, and if nothing else it does get noticed, in a flying-brick sort of way! It's definitely not bland!

However, the RL is just a wallflower. IMO Lemko actually paid the car a compliment by saying it looks like a $35K car! Me, I'd peg it closer to $20-25K. Heck, it doesn't really look much different from a Mazda6. There's nothing about its style that indicates to me that it's a step up from a Mazda6, VW Passat, Nissan Altima, etc. And its style just doesn't mesh well with the rest of the Acura lineup. The bold, chiseled TSX, TL, and even the MDX all have a strong family resemblance, but I just don't see it with the RL. It's not ugly, not by a long shot. But it's just kinda blah.

nippononly

Geez, now YOU'VE paid it a compliment! Me, I would say the Mazda6 and Passat both look BETTER than the RL. Altima, no, there I agree with you, they are on a similar footing styling-wise.

The RL's styling looks very 90s to me.

lemmer

I like the RL, but I would probably rather have a TL if I was given one or the other as a present. The TL is almost too good. If it had RWD, I would own one now.

andre1969

if Acura found a way to make the TL suck a little more, I'd like the RL better? :shades:

(note to Acura: you'd better NOT!)

ergo

Honda's 2006 Ridgeline is struggling...

1. The $1,000 direct to dealer rebates (for months!)

2. Subsidized lease rates ALL over the place. :shades:

3. It's the only 2006 model included in the 2005 model inventory reduction sale! :surprise:

4. The manufacturing plant's output has been cut per corporate (in 1st 6 months of production!).

5. All that and still it hasn't been able to meet VERY modest initial projections.

IMHO a Honda truck should be:

a. Fuel Efficient
b. Inexpensive.
c. Reasonably sharp looking.

Unfortunately the Ridgeline isn't ANY of the above! :mad: