Sales Flops of 2005

gagrice

'ridge selling below unit expectations

I think that Honda misjudged the truck market. People that buy most of the trucks use them for work. If the truck is not heavy duty enough to take a beating as well as look fancy, it will not sell. I think the Avalanche was a similar miscalculation. I wanted one till they came out as a plastic toy, instead of a usable truck. Car based trucks are not trucks.

harrychezt

LOL! That's the best comparo yet, bar none!
The car is not the winner in this comparo

allfiredup

I don't see any evidence that Ridgelines are selling under invoice, as has been mentioned. I know at least three Honda salesmen on this and other boards and they all say that they are letting Ridgelines go significantly under MSRP, but not under invoice. Also, when you price them with Edmunds TMV, CarDirect, Kelly Blue Book and other pricing websites, they all show them selling for at least $1000 over invoice.

I think it'll be interesting to look back on the first full year of sales and see how close they actually get to invoice. The truth is, despite being ugly as homemade sin, they are a competent, well equipped, comfortable vehicle that is just as practical as an SUV.

imidazol97

The Ridgeline has a 1000$ rebate given as a "marketing support" to the dealer instead of customer.

explorerx4

local newspaper ad had ridgelines 'at invoice'. you know you could get it for less. now they are pushing leases. still don't see any despite half a dozen honda dealers withing 30 miles of me.
for me, the in bed truck is a quack because it snows where i live, and the power is at the wrong end of the truck for towing.

rroyce10

.... Not knocking Honda, cuz' I do like em' - and not to get you "all fired up" ....

But most dealers are sitting on a 60 to 90 day inventory and most will blow one out in a nano second for just a few hundred over "net net" ...... keep in mind, Honda sales figures are based on the day they leave the factory and not when they're sold via the dealer ..... big difference.



Terry.

carguy58

"2) Fusion: People say it is selling well, but only 5,000+ Units in November . Some say it is due to limited supplies?"

I have only seen 1 Fusion on the road since it came out. The Fusion hasn't been out that long though. The market hasn't set a price(a supply and demand thing)yet because it hasn't been out that long yet. Remember when the Sonata first came out this summer there was no discounts so the car was not moving off of lots. Finally the market has set its price(supply and demand)on the Sonata.

"Sonata's were 3-4K off mspr(Caah back) before bargaining, even."

What is that dealer cash combined with the factory rebate from Hyundai that adds up to the 4K in discounts for the Sonata?

pdkesq

I can only speak for my local market (No. Nevada) but with the recent spate of incentives I've seen a big spike in the number of Tribeca's on the road. I'd seen none for ages and then in the last 3-4 weeks I've seen about 20 of them. The front end is weird, but the interior design is excellent and it actually drives quite nicely. We're in the market for a new vehicle for my wife and after the test drive my wife is in love with it. I think the initial pricing was high, but if they stick with the incentives it may do better. We still need to drive the Nissan Murano, but it certainly beats the pants off the Highlander we drove, which was the most uncomfortable piece of crap I've ever ridden in. Drove like [non-permissible content removed] too. The wife hates Hondas so the Pilot isn't a consideration (we have a CRV right now, which is a complete piece of garbage, so we're looking forward to being rid of that).

As for the Titan I see a ton of them here. Its a hot seller - our local dealer never has more then 1-2 on the lot and they never stay there long. I really liked the Mazda 6 sedan I drove a few years ago, but the Mazda dealer didn't want to deal on it, so I went elsewhere. I rarley see the 6 sedan around here (didn't see it when I lived in Northern California either). I've never seen a wagon or hatchback 6 on the road. In fact, our dealer has never even had the wagon, at least not that I've seen.

varmint

No offense taken.

I don't mean to suggest that the Ridgeline is a sales success. I just don't think it qualifies as a total flop, either.

I see a large number of postings stating that Honda has only sold 36K in the first year when they expected to sell 50K. My point in the above post was simply that the year isn't over. December is the end of the calendar year. When that 50K number was provided, they were talking about a full year. Which isn't over for another 3-4 months.

But since we're on the subject of incentives...

The F150 was introduced with a $500 rebate on the hood. The very first buyers were given cash. It has risen higher since. Does that make the F-150 a flop?

Is there a truck on the market which does not have incentives in one form or another? If not, are they all flops?

I do think Honda misjudged the market. They misjudged the number of buyers who want a fully loaded mid-size truck. From their point of view... if a POS Royale like the Sport Trac can do 40K units a year, why wouldn't a Honda with more capability do a few units more? I think the answer was that the POS can be had dirt cheap. Honda aimed too high in the price range.

qbrozen

so if a vehicle is selling below invoice, its a flop?

Just want to make sure we are clear on this point, because, if this is what folks are saying, then most big sellers are flops. Accord? flop. Camry? flop. etc, etc. Oh wait, those are a couple of the top selling cars, aren't they? hmmmmm....

rroyce10

..... Good point .. I think were alot of these guys get confused is, if it's not their favorite vehicle or their favorite manufacturer then the competition has to be a flop ....

In Honda's case, most buyers "seem" to think they're overpriced and most truck buyers aren't crazy about the looks - period, thats seems to be the big hu-ha in the industry ..... now this could change tomorrow or it could change in 10 months, or maybe never ...

Let's be honest, the truck market is the toughest to crack .. look at the Titan, people liked the looks, but tons and tons of problems ... that said, Nissan has broken their tail-off to cover, fix, repair, replace and in some cases give them a brand new truck with 3/4,000 miles .. we got the looks, but we don't have the proven reliability (yet) - it will all depend on the new buyers "memory" .....



Terry.

allfiredup

The Mazda6 has actually sold as well in 2005 as it did in 2004. I ran across Mazda YTD sales numbers for 11/05 and here's what I found-

Mazda6
Thru 11/04- 65,142
Thru 11/05- 66,677

Strangely enough, the chart also shows two 626s being sold this year. How the heck did that happen?

I was also glad to see the Mazda3 sales doing so well. I guess gas prices are the motivating factor.

Mazda3
Thru 11/04- 70,662
Thru 11/05- 90,502

allfiredup

.... Not knocking Honda, cuz' I do like em' - and not to get you "all fired up" ....

But most dealers are sitting on a 60 to 90 day inventory and most will blow one out in a nano second for just a few hundred over "net net" ...... keep in mind, Honda sales figures are based on the day they leave the factory and not when they're sold via the dealer ..... big difference.

You aren't getting me fired up at all. You actually taught me something I didn't know- that Honda bases sales figures on production and not dealer sales. Very good to know.

My biggest issue is other people (not you) who make claims about vehicles selling poorly, being sold at huge losses, etc. and not offering something to back it up. It seems that a lot of folks on here offer their opinion/prejudices as fact. That does get me "all fired up". :P

blueguydotcom

I was also glad to see the Mazda3 sales doing so well. I guess gas prices are the motivating factor.

Mazda3
Thru 11/04- 70,662
Thru 11/05- 90,502

How about the fact it's more fun to drive than any compact car and most midsizes...even entry lux cars? The Mazda3 hatch corners like nothing else in its segment. It's a truly fun driver's car.

carguy58

"The Mazda6 has actually sold as well in 2005 as it did in 2004. I ran across Mazda YTD sales numbers for 11/05 and here's what I found-"

"Mazda6" "
"Thru 11/04- 65,142"
"Thru 11/05- 66,677"

Yeah but there has been no increase from last year to this year sales for the 6 like the 3 has had from 04 sales figures to 05. I think the 3 didn't sell as good last year in the US as it is this year because of limited supply of 3's last year. Basically, Mazda couldn't make 3's fast enough last year. I guess this year the factory which makes the 3 in Hiroshima, Japan has picked up production this year so the 3 is selling better this year than it did last year. It'll be interseting to see if Mazda can keep the 6 in the 60K-70K sales range in the next couple years. I know the last 626 sales dropped off considerably the last 2 years of of its model cycle.

Here's a look at 626/6 sales the past 4 years

2000: 70K
2001: 50K
2002: 40K
2003: 65K
2004: 72K

pdkesq

I'm not suprised that the 3 sells well. Its a great little car. If I could get by with a small car I'd have one. Heck I'd buy a 6 if they made an AWD version of it. I really liked the 6 a lot.

carguy58

"How about the fact it's more fun to drive than any compact car and most midsizes...even entry lux cars? The Mazda3 hatch corners like nothing else in its segment. It's a truly fun driver's car."

Its too tight(the hatchback) to sit in my opinion. I can fit good in the Mazda 6 hatchback but the 3 hatchback no.

andys120

Heck I'd buy a 6 if they made an AWD version of it. I really liked the 6 a lot.

They do, the MazdaSpeed6 version has AWD, stickers a little north of $30K. Mazda 6s sell pretty well here in the Northeast, I seem 'em a lot.

varmint

That car makes a great alternative for someone who likes the WRX, but needs more room.

varmint

You actually taught me something I didn't know- that Honda bases sales figures on production and not dealer sales. Very good to know.

It makes sense when you think it through. Honda sells cars and trucks to dealerships. They don't sell them to you and I. So if Honda sells a car to the dealer, they get their money. Doesn't matter if the dealer decides to drive it off a cliff rather than sell it to a customer.

Trouble is... people always assume a sales chart reflects retail sales.

ab348

Dangerous practice though. Back in the 60s and early 70s Chrysler used to do that... keep the plants running, churning out cars that were not actually sold. They went into what they called a "sales bank". They had acres and acres of newly-built cars on the Michigan State Fairgrounds out in the weather deteriorating, but according to the books all was well. Not saying Honda does that, but until the cars are in the hands of the retail consumer they need to be sure to adjust production according to actual consumer sales.

varmint

That's a completely different situation. We're only talking about how they report sales, not how they run production.

When Honda recognized that sales weren't picking up, they reduced production. I believe they planned to cut 3,000 units from the run over a period of a few months. (In short, they revised their estimate from 50,000 units to 47,000.)

The deals they've been offering and the awards it has been winning seem to be taking up the slack. Sales for December were the highest yet (6,500+). We'll have to wait and see if sales continue at that pace, or if they slide back when the spotlight turns elsewhere and the deals are cut back.

explorerx4

the '3 is a fine little car. one day i stopped at the local bagel shop and parked my focus next to a '3. the extra effort was obvious in the body panels and even the brake calipers. if i had to do it over again, i would might get the '3, although it would have cost about 6k more than i paid for the focus. the focus is still functionally a fine car, the '3 just seemed to be an obvious level higher execution. either one is an add on car for me.

ab348

Interesting perspective. I don't know if you get to see the BBC program "Top Gear" (highly recommended) but they did a comparo last year of the 3, the new Golf, and the Vauxhall Astra (not sure if there is a GM North America equivalent). They found the 3 to be a very cheaply-made car and didn't like it very much. In their summing-up afterwards they said that all would have come up short in comparison to the Focus, which remains their favorite in that segment.

guss

Would that be the European Focus or the North American?

The European version is on the same platform as the Mazda 3, we should be getting it in 2007.Ford does not think the US will want it with it's higher price tag.

I wonder if the anticipation of an apparently much better Focus on the horizon , does this hurt current sales.

prosa

I don't know if you get to see the BBC program "Top Gear" (highly recommended) but they did a comparo last year of the 3, the new Golf, and the Vauxhall Astra (not sure if there is a GM North America equivalent).

I believe the Chevrolet Cobalt is the North American equivalent of the Astra.
And we still don't have the new Golf.

nippononly

vs fleet sales, did anybosdy notice that Chevy outsold Ford for 2005? That is the first time it has accomplished that since 1986. A year ago, Ford and GM both announced that they were cutting back on fleet sales. Apparently, ONE of them was serious.

Now the difference in volume wasn't enormous - in fact, one of the flops of the year, the Ranger, would have kept Ford on top if it had performed up to its historic standard. Instead, Ford decided not to update it at the end of its model cycle, and sales dropped by more than half.

anythngbutgm

The Ranger is LONG overdue for replacment. FMC needs to put some serious effort into the new model, or they will be laughed out of the market for taking so long and offering up a dud in the end...

I have confidence that isn't going to happen though...

gagrice

It is a shame they have let the Ranger fall down. It was always my favorite small/midsize PU. Best of class for many years.

varmint

I think the next Sport Trac is supposed to be targeted at some of those buyers. Though it will likely be a more expensive vehicle.

Without the Ranger, there's no truly compact and inexpensive truck. Well... the Colorado comes pretty close. Maybe Subaru will take another stab at the Baja. :confuse:

anythngbutgm

A shame what happened to the Baja... Could it actually qualify as a flop for 2005? I don't think it ever succeeded in the first place so it musn't have been a hard fall!

Even in Subie country N.E. the Baja is a rare bird. :sick:

lemmer

The ex-wife in My Name is Earl drives one of the old Bajas. They sometimes her kids sitting in the back seats as they drive through a rain storm.

varmint

...was a flop for 2004, I think.

Lemmer - I think that would be a Brat, not a Baja. (If that actually makes a difference to anyone.)

kyfdx

That is what I was thinking.. The one that is painted up like an American flag?

lemmer

You guys are correct.





I was thinking they had the same name. I wonder why they chose not to bring back the Brat moniker.

nippononly

I dunno...if you want cloth on the seats and a CD player, you get to an $18K sticker pretty quick in the Colorado, same in Tacoma and Frontier. And let's not even talk about an extended cab. The days of inexpensive small pick-ups seem to be over. :-(

What I want to see is a proper successor to the Brat - not a $25K luxed-up Baja, but rather a $16K cloth-seat, 4-cyl engine version on the Impreza platform.

I don't know if it would sell or flop, but it sure would be unique! :-)

au94

I thought the Brat was cool!! I remember seeing one on display at the mall when I was very young. I promptly climbed in back and had a seat!

anythngbutgm

Wasn't the body integrity a big issue with the old Brat? Not that anybody was at a "Pinnacle" of integrity at the time, but I recall the bodies rotted out quickly on those.

nippononly

I don't think they were any worse than average. Of course, NHTSA safety regulations quickly changed to make those bed-mounted seats illegal. What a pity...

Oh yeah, forgot to add, my wishful thinking for an Impreza-based Brat successor does not include the pass-through door, just make it the regular 5-seat Impreza with a chopped roof and a little bed back there, or better yet make a two-seat version with a longer bed.

harrychezt

factory cash back was 3K , and for Hyundai owners buying a new Sonata, another 1K off, cash back, from the maker.
So, still left room for dealing, too. If I were buying the nearly 24K LX, leather, 235HP V6,et al..... I could have gottne around 1,200 off msrp, plus 4 K....5,200 or so dollars off the car That would make it aorund 18,800, give or take a hundred or two.
No wonder they sold 20,000+ in December, a record for Sonata sales. Previous one was November, at over 14,000+ units. Think that was just 1000 off for loyalty.

Fusion sold over 7,000+ units for December. Picking up some.
Gonna go look for G6 sales, if GM posted their 05 and December sales yet.

Didn't see them yesterday.

ab348

Guss wrote: Would that be the European Focus or the North American?

The European version is on the same platform as the Mazda 3, we should be getting it in 2007.Ford does not think the US will want it with it's higher price tag.

I wonder if the anticipation of an apparently much better Focus on the horizon , does this hurt current sales.


I assume it was the Euro version as of 2004 which I understand is similer to ours in some versions. They actually discussed the fact that the next Focus would be based on the 3 platform, and said, "If you want the GOOD one, go to your Ford dealer and buy one now before they ruin it!"

chuck1959

I wish I knew why Ford is ignoring the Ranger. Espcially with the other American trucks in that class look ugly. Of course on the other hand people are able to get a great deal on one. I considered on a couple of years ago. The dealers (manufacters) were being very generous with discounts

varmint

My guess would be because no individuals buy them. It's a terrific vehicle for fleet sales, but those sales are not very profitable. And the fleet buyers could care less whether it's got a nice interior, contemporary styling, or nifty features. They're more concerned with getting a cheap, practical vehicle.

explorerx4

the na focus is the old euro design focus.
i have seen pictures of the current euro focus. WOW!
i have seen "Top Gear" a couple of tmes while channel surfing. i don't watch any shows with any consistency.

explorerx4

re the ranger, when you haven't changed anything in maybe 10 years, the vehicle is hugely profitable.
the big joke about the ranger is when they come out with the retro version (ala mustang), it won't look any different than the current one.

geo9

They sold a shade over 1100 Qs for 05
19xx sold for 04 according to aicautosite.com

anythngbutgm

The new Infiniti M makes the Q45 redundant unfortunately...

varmint

That's what I mean. Since it's purchased mostly by fleet buyers, there's no need to upgrade the niceties. The basic truck is all those buyers are after. So, with the costs amortized over 10 years, Ford can sell it dirt cheap.

au94

True, but I'm sure Ford will want to restyle/upsize this truck to compete with the new larger Tacoma's, Frontier's and Dakota's.

At one time the Ranger was a top 10 seller in the US. This was before it was basically a fleet vehicle and was competitive with the Toyota etc, i.e. before they became mid-size vs compact pick ups.

I know Ford can do something better than the Colorado. That thing is just ugly.

varmint

Agreed. That's more or less what I was saying before. I think the next SportTrac will be the "consumer" small truck. The Ranger may continue on as the "fleet" vehicle.

Not unlike what they were doing with the new F-150 and the F-150 "classic". As well as the continued production of the Taurus largely for fleet customers.

But I think we've wandered way OT, now.