Sales Flops of 2005

varmint

Other companies have made the transition from cars to trucks. And nobody has balked at paying the price for those vehicles. So I have a hard time accepting the notion that Subaru's image as a car builder and value-oriented brand are what's holding the Tribeca back.

You can talk advertising, niche status, image, prestige, product mix, demographics, and such... but at the end of the day it's the vehicle itself which owns the lion's share of the blame. A good vehicle can overcome those little hurdles.

qbrozen

actually, its over 25k Ridges sold. it was nearly 26k a full 2 months ago. and its full year is not up yet. They believe they will get over 40k for a year. Like i said, double that of the "breakthrough huge success" of the first year WRX.

goodegg

Kia's sales for Nov 04 vs Nov 05 are down 13.8%. Even with the gas price scare. What's that tell ya?

nippononly

When I say "Explorer sales are off by 52%" you think it sounds like "Ford sales are off by 52%"??? :confuse:

No, EXPLORER sales are off by 52%. I suspect this model will not be the #1 SUV in sales next year. But it is only a possibility, as last year it had a long lead vs the #2.

They made it significantly more powerful (in the V-8, at least), while fuel economy stood pat. Those without a need for towing are probably looking with much more interest then before at crossovers that can do 10-30% better in mpg.

alpha01

Is the Tribeca not meeting Subaru's Sales Goals for the model? In the C/D article, I thought around 20K per year was stated as the target pace- last month SoA sold about 2300?

Joe

nippononly

SoA has changed the "sales targets" for the Tribeca so many times this year (including a couple of times AFTER it was already on sale!) no-one can keep up. :-P

Last I remember seeing was they wanted 34K sales, which had been revised downward AT LEAST twice. So if they end up at 28K or so, they will fall short of even that third revision.

andre1969

are for August. For that month, the Explorer sold 17,151 versus 30,603 in August 2004. YTD through August, sales were at 183,999, down from 229,582 the year before.

So in August, sales were down to 56% of their previous level. For the year, they were down to 80%. So I guess the slide got worse in Sept/Oct/Nov?

Also, in August, the Trailblazer had the best SUV sales, with 22,251 units. Then the Grand Cherokee, with 17,931. The Liberty, Escape, and CRV were all around the 15-16K mark in August, so they were nipping at the Explorer's heels.

Here's the URL if you all want to mull over the figures more closely. Note: the heading that reads "July 2005" should read "August 2004". Unless they really did only sell zero Freestyles, HHRs, and Tuscons in July! :P

Where are you guys seeing November sales stats at? I'd love to see 'em.

varmint

oops! I was unclear trying to get clear on what you wrote. :sick:

What I'd read is that Ford Explorer's November sales were 52% lower than the NOVEMBER sales from last year.

Your remark made it seem like Explorer sales are off 52% YTD.

Is that right??? Is the whole year a bust, or was it just October and November?

andre1969

that the 52% is just November and October. Probably September too, since for August they were down by around 43%. As of August they were only down by 20% for the whole year, so they'd have to have been hit brutally in Sept/Oct/Nov to be down 52% for the year! But you never know. I haven't exactly seen hordes of the new Explorer out on the streets yet.

varmint

How is the Honda Ridgeline doing? - Guss

Sales are off target by about 6 or 7 percent. - Me

Have to correct myself now that November sales figures are in. If they have an "average" month in December, the Ridgeline will be about 1.8% off target.

splatsterhound

Does Ridgeline have the transmission failures and deficiency that other Hondas have had?I don't know. Almost all of 'em I've seen have been lined up at the local Honda dealer. They finally started storing them in their back lot because it got a little old seeing them lined up in the front. I have only seen one on the road.

As far as reliability? My chum has a 02 MDX (same basic mechanicals) and has put in one new transmission and recently put in two new front struts/steering assemblies. He drives it off road and the thing just can't take the abuse. He fried the transmission getting stuck in hardpacked sand. He's not thrilled.

toycash

YTD Explorer sales are down 30%.

carguy58

The Explorer is down sales wise because people do not know if and when gas prices will rise heavily again.

The Tribeca is kinda ugly though in the way it looks on the exterior.

carguy58

Yeah but Kia in the Us has been up saleswise throughout this year. They outsell Mazda, Mitsu, VW(not including Audi Sales) and Mitsu. As a matter of fact I think Kia may outsell VW including Audi sales. I think BWM and Kia are pretty close sales numbers wise. I haven't seen November car sales though.

BTW, Does even how many units per month the new VW Jetta is moving? I know people do not like the newly styled VW Jetta but I always see some on my way to work.

imidazol97

It must be like the Altimas at a new facility for a Nissan dealer next to their Ford building. They have about 50 lined up in a row, maybe even more. Looked problematic.

carguy58

"As far as reliability? My chum has a 02 MDX (same basic mechanicals) and has put in one new transmission and recently put in two new front struts/steering assemblies. He drives it off road and the thing just can't take the abuse. He fried the transmission getting stuck in hardpacked sand. He's not thrilled."

Um, the MDX is not a vehicle that I would take off-road.

anythngbutgm

MDX is NOT for blazing trails, that's for sure. It kicks royally in the snow, but if I were off-roading, I'd take a Jeep . I won't fool myself thinking the X is a mountain goat.:shades:

toycash

Kia's about 17,000 ahead of BMW, but would not be ahead of VW/Audi. Actually BMW outsold Kia in November.

andre1969

that the best way to think of vehicles like the MDX are that they combine the advantages of RWD and FWD cars. Just look at any car or minivan out there on the road, and imagine it had 4wd. Would you want to take it off-roading? The reason these things have AWD is to give them better wet weather traction, not to make them more capable off-roaders.

goodegg

Actually BMW/Mini is outselling Kia 05 YTD by 21,000 units (with zero fleet/rental giveaways).

nippononly

comparing Kia to BMW? Just curious. Seems like a much better measure of how it is doing would be comparison against non-premium brands like Subaru, Mazda, and Hyundai. Oh yeah, VW too.

Kia isn't coming on anywhere near as strong as they were saying they would a year or two ago. The Sportage/Rio/Spectra need to sell well next year as they are carrying the banner for the brand right now. Sedona and Amanti are older models. Will there ever be a Kia version of the Santa Fe?

Was it Hyundai that wanted a million U.S. sales a year by 2010 or something? Seems like they are not approaching that goal very rapidly either.

varmint

Bah. You can do fun things with the softroaders.

http://home.comcast.net/~kyle.macrae/varmintinnertire.mov

You just need to go slow and exercise some caution. Respect their limits and you can enjoy a decent romp through the trails. Get cocky and speed over the bumps and you will break things.

Our guide on the trip where that vid was taken told us stories about Rubicons with busted suspension parts... after we'd already traversed the trail where it happened. Things break all the time. Especially when owners put over-sized tires on their rigs. It multiplies the forces applied to the axles, brakes, and such.

rroyce10

... ** .... comparing Kia to BMW?

Good question, why are we.? .... keep in mind, 30% of the Hyun/Kia's are at the rental agencies .....

Terry.

splatsterhound

I wouldn't take an MDX off road either. Remember, it's my chum, not me. I was with him in it when we were on a rutted logging road and I laughed pretty darn hard to hear that MDX moan and groan as it tried to climb out of some ruts. We had to stop and let the transmission cool cuz you could smell the burning fluid (and that's AFTER he had a rebuild).

However, I've seen the Ridgeline ads that show it hauling a.. up a rutted road. The thing would last about three hours at that rate, at least judging by my friend's MDX.

goodegg

Another flop - the whole company. And Volvo's sales are down 10% YTD.

iluvmysephia1

Kia sales are actually up this year over last year.

Kia sold 20, 091 units for Nov.'05. Year-to-date sales for Kia Motors America total 257,084, which is 2.9% ahead of the record sales pace of last year.

Kia will have 6 new or redesigned product launches in 2006 including the Sedona minivan in January 2006. The 2006 Kia Rio and Rio5 are redesigns and are already at dealers. The sedan hit dealers just a titch ahead of the Rio5 hatchwagon that has been coming in to dealers the last couple of weeks.

Kia Motors America just keeps building on their success. I would expect their 2006 sales to better 2005 sales by at least 5%. Copy and paste that and a year from now we'll share a Krispy Kreme and talk sales numbers and NBA basketball at the same time, K?

goodegg

Well that whopping 2.9% sales increase place it last of all the Asian car makers who showed an increase over the same period last year.

Suburu and Suzuki had bigger gains than that.

chuck1959

I went backed and looked. Please accept my apologies.

andre1969

thanks, Chuck. I just didn't want you pissed at me or anything. After all, at times we've both had the same equisite taste in cars! ('76 LeMans, '79 NYer) :shades:

Oh, and my one friend's mother, who's like a GS-15 or some SES position in the gov't, absolutely LOVES her '02 Sonata. And lives nowhere near the inner city! :P

andys120

As far as reliability? My chum has a 02 MDX (same basic mechanicals) and has put in one new transmission and recently put in two new front struts/steering assemblies. He drives it off road and the thing just can't take the abuse. He fried the transmission getting stuck in hardpacked sand. He's not thrilled.

Neither the MDX nor the Ridgeline are intended for severe off-road usage. If your friend wants to go off-road a lot he ought to get a real truck with 4wd, and a low crawler gear.

carguy58

"... ** .... comparing Kia to BMW?"

"Good question, why are we.? .... keep in mind, 30% of the Hyun/Kia's are at the rental agencies ....."

"Terry."

Well The Domestic Big 3, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda and Mitsu sell to rental fleets. Rental Fleets count as sales. I don't know if VW sells to rental fleets. Anyway, though Kia and BMw are close in units sold so thats why I was comparing the 2 brands sales wise.

carguy58

"Hyundai has a pretty good following among younger buyers and I doubt the Tiburon makes much of a difference."

Yeah thats true regarding Hyundai's younger buyers because I have heard the Hyundai accent has an average or median age of 24 years old.

lemko

...that the Hyundai Accent would have younger buyers as it is affordable to most first-time car buyers. I bet Scion would envy the Accent's median car buyer's age.

andre1969

that the Accent could get an average buyer age down to 24! I've heard that it's actually pretty hard to get an average buyer age of any new car much below 40, simply because the group of young buyers who buy new, versus a used car is relatively small. Another factor is that many teens drive a new car that was actually purchased by their parents, so the parent gets marked down as the buyer, not the teen.

I wonder what's going to happen to the automotive landscape as the Baby Boomers move into retirement? Often, as people retire they tend to drive less and don't wear out their cars as often, so they just don't buy cars as often. Sure, you'll get the ones that trade every few years because they have the money and the desire to always have something new, but then you get plenty on a fixed income with not much savings, who have to make what they have last.

lemko

...learned ANYTHING from their parents, they'd put aside their prejudices and get a Buick.

callmedrfill

MT, in their COTY issue, stating in a review of the Cobalt, that cars like the Accent show how lacking the Cobalt is in terms of refinement. A semi-backhanded compliment.

DrFill

prosa

I've heard that it's actually pretty hard to get an average buyer age of any new car much below 40, simply because the group of young buyers who buy new, versus a used car is relatively small.

Last I heard, Volkswagen and Mitsubishi had the lowest average buyer age in the United States. Both were just under 40.

Another factor is that many teens drive a new car that was actually purchased by their parents, so the parent gets marked down as the buyer, not the teen.

That's said to be why despite all its targeting of the youth market, Scion's average buyer age is in the mid-40's. I don't know whether that's the whole story, and in any event I also don't know whether "average" in this context refers to the mean or median.

imidazol97

I wonder if a real problem here is the demographics of the buyer vs the demographics of the primary driver for the various cars. I picture many young adults on their own buying the Accent and they're on their own financial record. I picture other young adults using their parents to buy for them because of their situation and ending up not showing as the owners, thus skewing the demographics.

I'm going to have to stop by the Hyundai and sit in the Accent to compare. I don't want to face the hungry salemen to drive. It's bad enough just to visit showrooms. The Ford dealer almost carried me up the steps into theirs a few days ago when they saw my 8 year-old LeSabre park.

Hadn't been treated that well since I pulled up to a Chevy dealer in my 18 year-old Biscayne.

andre1969

I think one reason that the mean (average, or whatever, I always get 'em mixed up :confuse: ) age is relatively high is that they also appeal to older people. They're inexpensive, very economical, and built tall so they're easy to get into and out of. All very desireable traits to older people who are looking to them mainly for the utility.

So it's not that Scion is necessarily an old-people only car. It's just that there's enough older people who buy them that it drags up the average. Also, I think it's simple statistics. It takes an awful lot of young buyers to offset one older one. For instance, if you're shooting for an average age of 40, and one 80 year old buys your car, then it takes two 20 year olds to bring that average back down to 40.

imidazol97

Mean is the same as average. They changed the nomenclature to confuse us.

It would be an interesting study to see the average ages of drivers rather than average ages of owners for the various cars like that.

nwng

the outgoing echo was a popular car among the retiree set as well. Easy to get in/out, easy on gas/maintainence, car is small and very easy to see all around. The way most retirees drive (around town/short trips) the echo was a perfect match.

andre1969

that somewhat missed the mark was the Honda Element. Intended to appeal to the youth market, it also got a large older following, based partly on its versatility, price, ease of entry/exit, and nimble size.

IIRC, didn't the Echo actually end up flopping with younger buyers? Whereas the Scion and Element at least have a good mix of young, middle-age, and older, I think the Echo ended up mainly appealing to older buyers.

My uncle looked at an Echo back in 2002, before deciding on a Corolla. Not a bad little car, but the Corolla wasn't that much more expensive, yet was better-trimmed, more powerful, roomier, bigger, and got similar fuel economy.

prosa

I wonder if a real problem here is the demographics of the buyer vs the demographics of the primary driver for the various cars.

Minivans are a prime example of that situation. Something like 70% of the registered owners of minivans are men, yet any look at minivans on the road shows that men make up a notably lower percentage of the drivers. The explanation, of course, is that married men often buy minivans for their wives. I would imagine that a similar situation exists with respect to SUV's, if not quite to the same extent.
It's interesting to note that women make up a substantial percentage, possibly a majority, of the registered owners and drivers of certain car brands, Volkswagen and Subaru come to mind. Yet women who drive minivans are much less likely to be the owners of the vehicles. At the risk of stereotyping a bit, I suspect that many of the women who drive minivans (and, to some extent, SUV's) are housewives without incomes to buy vehicles on their own, while the women driving Volkswagens and Subarus have jobs and don't need men to buy their vehicles for them.

1racefan

"At the risk of stereotyping a bit, I suspect that many of the women who drive minivans (and, to some extent, SUV's) are housewives without incomes to buy vehicles on their own, while the women driving Volkswagens and Subarus have jobs and don't need men to buy their vehicles for them."

In my case, my wife is employed, but I am the "registered owner" of her vehicle. When it comes to buying a car, my wife and I establish a budget, and select the model together. When we go to the dealership, she test drives the vehicle, and looks at the features. Once she has decided that she is happy with the car, she is done with the process. She will typically go on home at that point, and I will stick around for the negotiations and paperwork (provided the #s work out). She hates the negotiation and paperwork process, so that is how I end up with the cars in my name.

qbrozen

Even with a 10% drop, Volvo isn't doing too bad compared to the others in Ford's stable. They beat out Lincoln, Jag, and Land Rover. So they are 3rd, following Ford and Mercury.

The new C70 might help, and a new S60 could do wonders for them since the old S60 still beat out the new S40.

I've got a question ... anyone know where to get global numbers? The V50 seems to be a flop here, but I'd like to see how it did globally.

splatsterhound

Neither the MDX nor the Ridgeline are intended for severe off-road usage. If your friend wants to go off-road a lot he ought to get a real truck with 4wd, and a low crawler gear.

I agree, and I've told my MDX chum the same thing. However, he ruined his trasmission on a forest service road with about two inches of sand -- hardly severe off-roading. Basically, the front wheel drive/rear-wheel take-off transmission can't take the abuse of even somewhat difficult strain. I asked a guy who owns a transmission shop what the most troublesome trannys are. He smiled and said he wouldn't be able to pay his employees if it werent for older Chrysler cars...but he said the newer post-Daimlier Chryslers are much better. The brand that brings him the most business now: Honda (and Accura). Minivans, SUVs and, I can guess, the Ridgeline. The transmissions just aren't tough enough to handled the increased horsepower of the bigger v6. ...I still don't see any Ridgelines on the road, just on the dealer lot.

anythngbutgm

I've got 11 friends and relatives with V6 H/A, and 1 myself. I'll let them know to get them looked at as they approach the 200k mark... Could be any day now

howe

Acura redesigned the MDX transmission for 2003 and later. There was a problem with the 2001 & 2002 transmissions. Many had problems. Not all. Most were replaced on good faith even after warranty if defective. The new transmissions are a "compact style", designed and made in Japan then shipped to Canada for incorporation. They are very smooth and reliable. MDX's are not trucks but cross-over vehicles that are safer and more robust than mini-vans and can do service roads and such without drama, but not rock crawlers. They have All Wheel Drive that gives good traction in snow and rain, not full time 4-wheel drive. I own a 2005 MDX and it serves me well for what it was designed, an AWD wagon. If I wanted or needed to go off-road, I'd have bought a Land Crusier, Jeep or the like. Its no sense owning one of those things if you don't use it's capabilities and just make a fashion statement.:)

pwgilbert

If my economics classes from years ago are recalled correctly, "median" means an equal number of whatever is above that number, and an equal number is below it. "Average" means all summs are added and divided by the number of whatever. So they are different numbers and mean different things. Confusing though for sure.

prosa

If my economics classes from years ago are recalled correctly, "median" means an equal number of whatever is above that number, and an equal number is below it. "Average" means all summs are added and divided by the number of whatever.

You have a good memory

In any event, when looking at the average age of a particular model's buyers it is better to use the median rather than the mean (if available, of course) as the latter is more easily skewed by a relatively small number of outlying results. For instance, expanding on something suggested in an earlier posting, let's say that six people buy Model X, and their ages are 20, 25, 30, 30, 35 and 80. The mean age of this model's buyers is 36.7, which is somewhat misleading because five of the six buyers are below that age. Quite obviously the 80-year-old buyer skews the mean upward. The median age, 30, more accurately represents Model X's demographic appeal.

When dealing with mean motor vehicle buyer ages, I would imagine that an upward skewing of this sort is substantially more likely than one in the other direction. That's because senior citizens can and do buy vehicles, while people under 18 generally cannot - and, as a practical matter, financial circumstances often greatly limit one's ability to buy a new car before age 25 or so. Hence it's better to use medians rather than means.

Of course, if dealing with Buicks, a buyer under age 50 can skew the mean age downward to a considerable extent :shades: