this is my guess, the trucks are soft.. and will be even softer when gas prices go up.. the dealer does not want to be stuck with that truck. dealers have to thoroughly inspect/recondition vehicles due to liability issues.. figure that plus profit adds 3k to price and they are looking to sell it for 15k.. they will definitely price it higher in case someone lays down for it but what if some one comes in and starts to negotiate?? What would you pay for a 3 year old base titan.. that is what you have to ask yourself.. my guess is you both could have cooled your jets and maybe found another thousand to play with.
Why don't you just try and sell it yourself? You will almost always get more money than the dealer will offer. What you owe is really not the dealers problem. In the end the dealer expects to make money off both the sale and the trade. If the dealer will not take your offer he probably feels he can make more money somewhere else. Really hard to blame him for that.
Yea I can say that I do agree with your comments, I have asked myself the same question about the Titan and what I would have paid. This is why I posted my fist topic on this because it has upset me that there was no dealing, take my value and I will give you two thousand less for yours. I really do not like buying vehicles because of this. Well thanks for the comments, I appreciate your input on the situation.
Since this and after looking at all different forums I will now be doing just as you say. My situation has changed due to a work vehicle and my wife wanting to use the titan. I am planning on buying a new accord. I am planning on having her vehicle sold outright and using this for down payment(taxes and ext. warranty). I also have my own financing worked out where basically the only negotiating is the selling price. I figure it is best if that is all I have to worry about.
I think that is a really good idea. I have never traded in a car and I never will. I know in some states it makes since because of tax issues but here in California it does not matter. I have helped several people buy cars, who had trade-ins and I always felt we could have done a little better on either the car or the trade.
I am sure you have read this, but If I were to offer up some advise, I would see what the dealer can do for you in financing. Sometimes they can beat what you have. Remember the extended warranty is negotiable too. If they won't sell it for a good price you can always find someone who will. You don't have to buy it the same time you buy your car. Good luck to you.
How did you do in high school on your reading aptitude quizzes? I'd like you to reread my post and then edit yours.
I always thought those aptitude tests were pretty degrading didn’t you? Although when I took them they always said I was qualified for just about anything that I wanted to pursue. I found out what “about” meant when I couldn’t get into med-school. There’s no need for me to edit, it’s correct, I always check my work before submitting it.
You win the prize for being right aabout the "For Sale" sign.
Thanks but I knew that before I submitted that post (see above).
Jipster, tell him what he's won!
I’ve seen what ‘jip’ was offering (post 7782) and he’s right, I don’t want it or door No.2. Frankly, I’m very disappointed with what ‘jip’ had to offer in post 7782. Having known him for a while, I was sure he could have done better than that. :sick:
Now, if ‘psorter’ would call the salesman and get an answer as to how the salesman got his phone number, that would put this issue to bed once and for all.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Hi everyone. I have a few questions if someone could help I would really apriciate it. In order to purchase cars at auto auctions in US and ONLY export these cars do I need to register a dealership? Also since its and export only company do I still need to go through all this stuff with passing a test and owning a lot? Another question is when I purchase a car what do i do with a title. Could it be just signed over to me? Can I ship a car with a title like that?
Also I am looking for dealers that would like to export cars and want to work with a company in europe and that participate in auctions- in NY,NJ,PE and NE region states. No more then 200miles from NYC.
Now, if ‘psorter’ would call the salesman and get an answer as to how the salesman got his phone number, that would put this issue to bed once and for all.
Until Psorter does, we're just going to tear each other apart. This issue is causing way too much distress.
I do believe the consensus is saying "aliens" were responsible. Let's see how it pans out.
Those XE Titans had big rebates on them and could be purchased under 20k in '04. Your mileage is good, but I think that $12,100 is decent money.
The weird part of the deal is that they wouldn't take your offer. If you are paying their asking price, then they could overallow on your vehicle. In your state, do you have tax credit for trade-ins? (You pay taxes on the difference between trade-in value and purchase price.)
I would definitely find another dealership though. Check around for a similar vehicle and work out the numbers there. See for yourself if everything you're hoping for is unreasonable.
No the 2nd and 3rd ones were at invoice both. The problem will arise when the UC manager has to try to move the two bought-back vehicles at 'higher-than-new-car-pricing'.
But in the end it will be a breakeven or small loss situation for a lot of work that resulted in a) a good survey and b) 5 potential repeat customers ( x however many people they tell ).
You didn't mention 2WD or 4WD so I plugged in 2WD as a default here on Edmunds values. The Trade in value is about $11000 The Privaate Party value is about $12500 The Dealer Retail value is about $13800
Here is a very direct and concise statement that I use with all people that are trading in vehicles. It was noted before and it almost always calms all emotional feelings about being 'abused' in the trade in process.
Unless the trader is way out of line in what he/she views the worth of the vehicle to be ( using Edmunds or Kbb is useful ) there is a given market price for all vehicles. There is a trade-in value which is normally $2000-$4000 below the market value. Which ever party does the work in selling, whether it's the owner or the dealer, earns the $2000-$4000.
It's really that simple. Whoever does the work makes the profit.
It looks like your truck if it is a 2WD is 'worth' about $13000-$14000. $11-$12000 sounds about right on trade in.
But in the end it will be a breakeven or small loss situation for a lot of work that resulted in a) a good survey and b) 5 potential repeat customers ( x however many people they tell ).
spyder,
This lady must have had an exceptional smile not to mention other attractive female attributes for you guys to have bent over backwards to please her like you did for as many times as you did.
Please don’t tell me you’d do the same for an overweight male with crooked teeth.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I'm surprised it's still there. :surprise: Maybe the hosts are getting senses of humor. :P Then again, kirstie_h is a gracious host and allows some brevity.
I think most brands/companies have good customer service so long as there are no problems with the product or service. It's when a problem arises that you get to see their true colors.
I had a very minor conern with my bank account (at a midsized, regional bank) recently, and made the mistake of calling the toll-free customer service line instead of directly calling the branch I deal with. The CSR was rude and combative, and kept putting me on hold. She transferred me to someone at the local branch (without telling me she was doing so), and they quickly took care of the issue. I'm still thinking I'd rather do business with a small-town bank.
The article said Cadillac won an award for best customer experience in the 2007 Luxury Customer Experience Index (LCEI), what ever that is, but 'graph' had his bad experience in 2006 so he still has a legitimate beef with Cadillac.
If he had only waited just another month, things could have been better. :sick:
However, I doubt that this article will sway his opinion of Cadillac.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I don't know that Customer Experience is everything in the end...
I owned a string of Acura Integras - the first in 1986 and then a series of them through 1997. They had the best customer service experience that I've ever seen. Really well treated, including a free rental car during service - even though my cars were only Integras.
However, I really didn't like the 1997 Integra. Compared to the previous Integra's I'd owned, it was a cheaply made car. Rather pathetic, I thought in design and materials. I came to hate that car - it was no fun to drive, it was very noisy, and it started to show signs of wear on the interior at 10K miles. Little things screamed (or beeped) cheap! like the sad little single horn, the lousy radio, and the inaccurate clock - not to mention the one-piece rubbermaid interior.
Much as I had liked Acura up to that point, I dumped that car after a year and bought a BMW. Didn't even look at an Acura. I figured that Acura had cheaped-out on their whole line-up. After old man Sochiro Honda died in 1993, they'd lost their way as a company.
Up till then, I'd always expected to remain an Acura buyer, moving up through their model line. I could have bought a more expensive Acura than the Integra for a number of years prior to 1997, but I enjoyed the sportiness of the Integras- the previous ones had made fun commuter cars.
So bottom line - great service can only compensate so far for bad product (IMHO)
My favorite blog entry about this survey was this little blurb....
....from a 'self-described' independent institute. More likely a PR firm GM hired. Maybe even same firm that plants 'success' stories about Iraq in newspapers.
I've never heard of this "so called" institute.
As best I can tell, Cadillac, like all of GM, hasn't changed one iota. No matter how strong the evidence presented, nor the severity of their reliability problems, Cadillac/GM is still playing the "deny a problem exists" game. Even after the back window imploded on the STS (and on me), the Cadillac Zone Manager was trying to claim some sort of "unrealistic expectations" on my part. Gee....I kind of expected that the glass on a Cadillac is supposed to stay intact while driving. Silly me. Unrealistic of me to expect that the car starts.
Even though GM states they will abide by the BBB decision to resolve issues, they patently ignored the BBB decision and forced me to take legal action.
Yeah....that's great customer service. :sick:
My son's Hyundai has had better treatment from his dealership than I experienced with Cadillac. This "institute" probably got the opinion of one Cadillac owner. His name was Robert Lutz.
I have never heard of this luxury institue thing either. The average income of my clients is well over the 150,000 dollar mark so you would think I whould have heard of this place.
You guys actually throw a party for yourselves or is that your employer who does that?
The employer does that. Actually three, one small one on the last day of tax season when we are getting the last paperwork into peoples hands. One a few weeks later which is an actual party for all employees and significant others a few weeks after the season ends. Then there is one about a month or so before the end of the year as a welcome back thing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
.....we're only a month into 2007. How can this LCEI for '07 be even remotely valid?
Yes, I noticed this too but I wanted to hear from others regarding its validity.
When I see surveys that are taken at the beginning of the year without qualifying that the results are from the previous year, I know real quick it’s just a PR announcement with no value what so ever.
Couple this with an outfit that nobody has heard of and you have to make at least 150K a year and I know for sure it’s worthless information. Why should a persons annual income have anything to do with the quality of a product?
I wouldn’t even want to hear Cadillac’s explanation of this survey. Watching paint dry would be a better use of my time than to hear that.
Using “lights and mirrors” as the major parameter for conducting a survey would have yielded more plausible results.
Like I’ve said before, GM still doesn’t get it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
GM is not the only one who "denies a problem exists." I had to go to three BMW dealers before I got one who acknowledged the electrical problems on my car.
That was the other thing that got me... I don't know many people who make 150k per year, AND would disclose it on a survey that may or may not be confidential. Also, a lot of the people I know in that category don't drive a luxury marque, but instead drive a midrange or loaded version of a non-luxury marque--none of those are covered on the survey. It's also suspicious that they named only one winner and refused to rank any of the others.
The Luxury Institute is the uniquely independent and impartial ratings and research institution that is the trusted and respected voice of the high net-worth consumer.
I feel for your plight, been there...done that. Dealers, especially domestic dealers are in a do or die situation right now. It's make max profit at all cost or get closed down. 2/3 of domestic dealers are going away. Closed, Out Of Business, Done, Finished. They have found out from Toyota et al that mega lots produce more sales thus many small dealerships will no longer be supported. They're in fight or flight mode. I too wondered why local Chevy dealer didn't care if he got repeat business. He just wanted his (over)price today and if that didn't happen...goodbye. They have nothing else to lose. Closing day is soon. Big thing is don't take it personally. I tried to trade using Edmunds numbers and dealer didn't care. He wanted $4k profit above Edmunds and didn't care about anything else. I eliminated the trade and offered Edmunds price cash and he still wanted his $4k over Edmunds. These guys are going down and scrambling for quick cash. They know they may not fit the new mega store mold and this is their last ditch effort to remain. Wait it out and don't buy domestic unless you like being insulted. It's them...not you and don't let salesmen on here tell you otherwise.
I'm sorry for lengthening my sordid tale about my Cadillac woes. As you can tell, I'm still steamed about this whole fiasco. But, I'm sorry. Some clandestine "institute", with some sort of exclusive target audience, that none of us are privy to, states that Cadillac is the #1 car brand in customer satisfaction just smacks of unfounded marketing hype by nebulous sources.
Given the questionable source, I can see Cadillac laying out a little coin to post this garbage on the WEB to somehow boost their terrible reputation.
Funny, but as much as I don't follow Consumer Reports, they just reported that Cadillac (especially the STS model) is the worst in reliability.
Quite a different tale than what the "luxury institute" reported.
I guess I need to join the club of this institute to get good customer satisfaction. Nobody has invited me to joint, though.
Actually, I am pretty familiar with the Luxury Institute. They do a LOT of consumer research focused on the buying habits of the consumers with family income exceeding $150k.
j....if you say so, I'll believe they're legit. They've never contacted me. I don't know any people who are at or well above $150K that have never heard of it.
Their sample size must be so small that I don't know how it's valid.
Actually, you are 100% wrong. I have never known a dealer, domestic or otherwise who would turn down a deal with profit. Forget Edmunds, its a guesstimate. You don't know what they own the vehicle for, you don't know what profit they want to make, or even what their financial situation is. Plus, it doesn't matter anyway. There is no law that says a dealer has to take your offer. A deal has to make sense financially to the dealer. Don't ever take it personally, and don't read more into it that there is.
While we can't assume that this represents all those households with $150K income or more, it's probably around 90% of them..... In any case, we can safely assume that the number is greater than 10.3 million households.
So, it might not be unusual for none of us to be familiar with this institute, even if we do have the requisite income. They could have quite a large (in the millions) sample size without including anyone that we've ever met.....
Over the past year, I have received 10-20 surveys from them in the past two years and they all deal with designer brands and super-luxury hotels (yawn). Obviously, they are are not getting any USEFUL information from me.
don't know what they own the vehicle for, you don't know what profit they want to make
I remember a few years back buying a used Mustang. I could not get my price on a 97 Mustang but got it on a 98 Mustang at the same dealer on the same day. Everything was equal between the two vehicles except the color and the year. Sales guy said they had too much in the 97 Mustang to let it go for that price.
Correct. It's verbosity that just makes us go postal
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I am a bit alarmed and personally concerned that you might consider posts of length as verbose rather than as being works of great depth and deep thought and that these might adversely impact the impression held of my pseudonym by the hosts and others who frequent this forum. I'll try in the future to limit the expression of my thoughts to a less-than-full expression of them while retaining the fundamental essence that makes them worthy of consideration by other readers. I'll hope that in brevity that I can find wit and -if not wisdom- at least clarity. and, and, Oh damn, I did it again, didn't I? :sick:
Comments
26,000 miles
9 on condition(rock hit windshield, caused crack)
added alarm, power locks, and tow hitch with brakes
I am sure you have read this, but If I were to offer up some advise, I would see what the dealer can do for you in financing. Sometimes they can beat what you have. Remember the extended warranty is negotiable too. If they won't sell it for a good price you can always find someone who will. You don't have to buy it the same time you buy your car. Good luck to you.
I always thought those aptitude tests were pretty degrading didn’t you? Although when I took them they always said I was qualified for just about anything that I wanted to pursue. I found out what “about” meant when I couldn’t get into med-school. There’s no need for me to edit, it’s correct, I always check my work before submitting it.
You win the prize for being right aabout the "For Sale" sign.
Thanks but I knew that before I submitted that post (see above).
Jipster, tell him what he's won!
I’ve seen what ‘jip’ was offering (post 7782) and he’s right, I don’t want it or door No.2. Frankly, I’m very disappointed with what ‘jip’ had to offer in post 7782. Having known him for a while, I was sure he could have done better than that. :sick:
Now, if ‘psorter’ would call the salesman and get an answer as to how the salesman got his phone number, that would put this issue to bed once and for all.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
In order to purchase cars at auto auctions in US and ONLY export these cars do I need to register a dealership?
Also since its and export only company do I still need to go through all this stuff with passing a test and owning a lot?
Another question is when I purchase a car what do i do with a title. Could it be just signed over to me? Can I ship a car with a title like that?
Also I am looking for dealers that would like to export cars and want to work with a company in europe and that participate in auctions- in NY,NJ,PE and NE region states. No more then 200miles from NYC.
Thanks
Until Psorter does, we're just going to tear each other apart. This issue is causing way too much distress.
I do believe the consensus is saying "aliens" were responsible. Let's see how it pans out.
-Moo
I recently saw the movie "Cars", and it's possible Psorter's Accord gave his personal info to the Fusion, who in turn blabbed to the salesman.
FUNNY
Another alternative which is very possible.
-Moo
Reasonable or unreasonable? What does it matter?
They didn't want to accept your offer - simple as that.
Don't throw a hissy fit. Either increase your offer or go somewhere else. The world does not operate according to your rules.
Those XE Titans had big rebates on them and could be purchased under 20k in '04. Your mileage is good, but I think that $12,100 is decent money.
The weird part of the deal is that they wouldn't take your offer. If you are paying their asking price, then they could overallow on your vehicle. In your state, do you have tax credit for trade-ins? (You pay taxes on the difference between trade-in value and purchase price.)
I would definitely find another dealership though. Check around for a similar vehicle and work out the numbers there. See for yourself if everything you're hoping for is unreasonable.
Good luck.
-Moo
But in the end it will be a breakeven or small loss situation for a lot of work that resulted in a) a good survey and b) 5 potential repeat customers ( x however many people they tell ).
You guys actually throw a party for yourselves or is that your employer who does that?
Either way I was in the wrong biz. :mad:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The Trade in value is about $11000
The Privaate Party value is about $12500
The Dealer Retail value is about $13800
Here is a very direct and concise statement that I use with all people that are trading in vehicles. It was noted before and it almost always calms all emotional feelings about being 'abused' in the trade in process.
Unless the trader is way out of line in what he/she views the worth of the vehicle to be ( using Edmunds or Kbb is useful ) there is a given market price for all vehicles. There is a trade-in value which is normally $2000-$4000 below the market value. Which ever party does the work in selling, whether it's the owner or the dealer, earns the $2000-$4000.
It's really that simple. Whoever does the work makes the profit.
It looks like your truck if it is a 2WD is 'worth' about $13000-$14000. $11-$12000 sounds about right on trade in.
spyder,
This lady must have had an exceptional smile not to mention other attractive female attributes for you guys to have bent over backwards to please her like you did for as many times as you did.
Please don’t tell me you’d do the same for an overweight male with crooked teeth.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
oooo......Any bets as to how long this post will last? :surprise:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Levity?
You can't possibly believe that! :shades:
tidester, host
Caddy rated best customer service ??? :confuse:
I had a very minor conern with my bank account (at a midsized, regional bank) recently, and made the mistake of calling the toll-free customer service line instead of directly calling the branch I deal with. The CSR was rude and combative, and kept putting me on hold. She transferred me to someone at the local branch (without telling me she was doing so), and they quickly took care of the issue. I'm still thinking I'd rather do business with a small-town bank.
If he had only waited just another month, things could have been better. :sick:
However, I doubt that this article will sway his opinion of Cadillac.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I owned a string of Acura Integras - the first in 1986 and then a series of them through 1997. They had the best customer service experience that I've ever seen. Really well treated, including a free rental car during service - even though my cars were only Integras.
However, I really didn't like the 1997 Integra. Compared to the previous Integra's I'd owned, it was a cheaply made car. Rather pathetic, I thought in design and materials. I came to hate that car - it was no fun to drive, it was very noisy, and it started to show signs of wear on the interior at 10K miles. Little things screamed (or beeped) cheap! like the sad little single horn, the lousy radio, and the inaccurate clock - not to mention the one-piece rubbermaid interior.
Much as I had liked Acura up to that point, I dumped that car after a year and bought a BMW. Didn't even look at an Acura. I figured that Acura had cheaped-out on their whole line-up. After old man Sochiro Honda died in 1993, they'd lost their way as a company.
Up till then, I'd always expected to remain an Acura buyer, moving up through their model line. I could have bought a more expensive Acura than the Integra for a number of years prior to 1997, but I enjoyed the sportiness of the Integras- the previous ones had made fun commuter cars.
So bottom line - great service can only compensate so far for bad product (IMHO)
My favorite blog entry about this survey was this little blurb....
....from a 'self-described' independent institute. More likely a PR firm GM hired. Maybe even same firm that plants 'success' stories about Iraq in newspapers.
I've never heard of this "so called" institute.
As best I can tell, Cadillac, like all of GM, hasn't changed one iota. No matter how strong the evidence presented, nor the severity of their reliability problems, Cadillac/GM is still playing the "deny a problem exists" game. Even after the back window imploded on the STS (and on me), the Cadillac Zone Manager was trying to claim some sort of "unrealistic expectations" on my part. Gee....I kind of expected that the glass on a Cadillac is supposed to stay intact while driving. Silly me. Unrealistic of me to expect that the car starts.
Even though GM states they will abide by the BBB decision to resolve issues, they patently ignored the BBB decision and forced me to take legal action.
Yeah....that's great customer service. :sick:
My son's Hyundai has had better treatment from his dealership than I experienced with Cadillac. This "institute" probably got the opinion of one Cadillac owner. His name was Robert Lutz.
What a sham!!!!!!!!!!!
conspiracy theory
-Moo
Anybody hear from psorter lately? He's seems to have fallen off the face of the earth.
The employer does that. Actually three, one small one on the last day of tax season when we are getting the last paperwork into peoples hands. One a few weeks later which is an actual party for all employees and significant others a few weeks after the season ends. Then there is one about a month or so before the end of the year as a welcome back thing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes, I noticed this too but I wanted to hear from others regarding its validity.
When I see surveys that are taken at the beginning of the year without qualifying that the results are from the previous year, I know real quick it’s just a PR announcement with no value what so ever.
Couple this with an outfit that nobody has heard of and you have to make at least 150K a year and I know for sure it’s worthless information. Why should a persons annual income have anything to do with the quality of a product?
I wouldn’t even want to hear Cadillac’s explanation of this survey. Watching paint dry would be a better use of my time than to hear that.
Using “lights and mirrors” as the major parameter for conducting a survey would have yielded more plausible results.
Like I’ve said before, GM still doesn’t get it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Right...and if you want to buy a bridge...
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Given the questionable source, I can see Cadillac laying out a little coin to post this garbage on the WEB
to somehow boost their terrible reputation.
Funny, but as much as I don't follow Consumer Reports, they just reported that Cadillac (especially the STS model) is the worst in reliability.
Quite a different tale than what the "luxury institute" reported.
I guess I need to join the club of this institute to get good customer satisfaction. Nobody has invited me to joint, though.
Oh wait... $150K.. never mind..
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Their sample size must be so small that I don't know how it's valid.
Maybe the institute is biased against Ohioans.
I have never known a dealer, domestic or otherwise who would turn down a deal with profit.
Forget Edmunds, its a guesstimate.
You don't know what they own the vehicle for, you don't know what profit they want to make, or even what their financial situation is.
Plus, it doesn't matter anyway.
There is no law that says a dealer has to take your offer.
A deal has to make sense financially to the dealer.
Don't ever take it personally, and don't read more into it that there is.
While we can't assume that this represents all those households with $150K income or more, it's probably around 90% of them..... In any case, we can safely assume that the number is greater than 10.3 million households.
So, it might not be unusual for none of us to be familiar with this institute, even if we do have the requisite income.
They could have quite a large (in the millions) sample size without including anyone that we've ever met.....
Oh, and geez.... Now I feel REALLY poor. :sick:
Levity?
That works, too. You get my point.
I remember a few years back buying a used Mustang. I could not get my price on a 97 Mustang but got it on a 98 Mustang at the same dealer on the same day. Everything was equal between the two vehicles except the color and the year. Sales guy said they had too much in the 97 Mustang to let it go for that price.
Correct. It's verbosity that just makes us go postal
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I am a bit alarmed and personally concerned that you might consider posts of length as verbose rather than as being works of great depth and deep thought and that these might adversely impact the impression held of my pseudonym by the hosts and others who frequent this forum. I'll try in the future to limit the expression of my thoughts to a less-than-full expression of them while retaining the fundamental essence that makes them worthy of consideration by other readers. I'll hope that in brevity that I can find wit and -if not wisdom- at least clarity. and, and,Oh damn, I did it again, didn't I? :sick:
-moo