Stories from the Sales Frontlines

nyccarguy

Did you have to purchase a special charging station? How much have your electric bills gone up?

Kirstie_H

I would bet that for some who drive very little the Prius costs more to own. I just don't get it at all. Heck, imagine the people who traded in things at net losses

I've noticed that a certain portion of the population loses ALL financial sense (if they ever had it) when gas prices go up. Our neighbor is one such person - in the past two years, he has gone from a brand-new Commander to a slightly used 1/2-ton pickup, to a 2008-ish Prius. I know he took a bath on that Commander trade-in. I have to wonder how much negative equity he's carrying in order to save gas money driving the Prius? I know he's not driving far for work, because he often comes home for lunch. They aren't flush with money to begin with... now I can see why.

I've seen people in our forums trading in vehicles like a brand-new Elantra because it wasn't getting the anticipated MPGs. Trade it in, take a $3-4,000 hit, then they buy something used that gets 10 MPG more, with the same payment, and they think they've come out even. It is impossible to show them how they just spent $4K to save $20/month in gas, if that.

tjc78

It took me forever to convince my Stepdad not to buy a Camry Hybrid over a regular one. I showed it six ways from Sunday on paper. It was for my mother and she only drives 18 miles a day. I can't remember but the breakeven point was like 9 years or more. It was all a moot point, because my mother put her foot down and got a RAV4 like she wanted all along anyway!

robr2

So I really don't think you get the full benefit of a hybrid by only going 3 miles each trip.

If you let the vehicle just idle, then yes - it will take some time to warm up. If one drives it, it will warm up faster.

BTW, a Prius doesn't run on just the electric power. It can but it typically doesn't. Also keep in mind that the Prius as a whole gets great gas mileage on short trips. For this particular application, she probably gets 3 times the mileage that her large SUV gets.

driver100

I wouldn’t say I did the smart thing at all. I caved to what Mrs. j thought would be a good idea.

Sorry, I meant to say Mrs J did a smart thing then.

For one thing, for $25 a year, you are pretty well guaranteed you won't have to spend another $500 or $600.

I agree, buying extended warranties are a losing proposition, but if you get a lemon you will be thankful you got it. I think, for $25 a year, it was smart to keep Mrs J happy.

dino001

I think this is again the "planned" vs. "unplanned" expense, just like with warranties. People think they can deal with payments. They see their payment goes up "only" by $100 per month (or whatever it is), they put it on their calendar and move on. But when their gas bill goes from $40 to $50 they get all twitchy.

Another thing that really does not help, is the way fuel consumption is measured in this country. Rest of the world measures fuel economy in terms of consumption per distance. They do liters per 100 km, we could do gallons per 100 miles, e.g. 20 mpg is 5 gallons per 100 miles, 30 mpg is 3.33 gallons per 100 miles and so on. Gives you immediate picture what a given trip would cost you. People obsess over 32 mpg vs. 29 mpg car like it was life and death. If they saw it is 3.6 gal/100 miles vs 3.1 gal/100 miles, so it is two bucks on a 100 mile trip, they may become more rational.

At low and high end mileage points the picture is gets really distorted. If you go from 40 mpg to 50 mpg, not an easy feat, you also save 0.5 gal/100 miles, just as much as going from 29 mpg to 32 mpg. Opposite is true at lower mpg levels going from 12 mpg to 15 mpg is huge deal: 8.33 gal/100 miles to 6.67, 1.67 gallons difference!

Yet, you hear people owning big trucks saying 2 mpg different is "nothing", but those compact owners get really stressed out when they get "only" 42 mpg instead of promised 45 mpg and or ready to go to court because they got "screwed".

nyccarguy

Excellent Post! Bravo!

Kirstie_H

I was just about to post the same thing! Really great explanation of how people rationalize, and how the real math is ignored.

nyccarguy

There are a lot of people out there who are extremely short sighted on things, especially when it comes to "saving money on gas.". They don't take into account the depreciation of their current gas guzzling SUV and the fact they're paying top dollar for that subcompact or hybrid.

Manufacturers capitalize on this by advertising their cars with "best in class fuel economy" or "best in class highway fuel economy.". You are right that people will buy a car based on the fact that they see the EPA highway number over 30 mpg.

Look at how many people out there ran out to buy Smart Cars. What are those rated at, 37 mpg on the highway? Something that looks and drives like a smart car should get 50 - 60 mpg on the highway.

I like your gallons per 100 miles way of looking at things.

In the end, you've got to pay every time you fill up anyway regardless of the car's gas mileage. Use my wife's 2011 Pilot as an example. She gets between 13 & 15 mpg driving around town. I took the Pilot for a week over the summer and used it as my commuter vehicle. I took it easy on the gas & the brakes. Set the cruise at 60 on the highway. I think I calculated 19.2 mpg for the week. Guess what? It still cost me $75 to fill up the tank whether she's getting mpgs in the 14s or I'm getting mpgs in the 19s.

nyccarguy

I have no problem with people who "love their Prius," but don't tell me you bought a loaded $30K Prius to "save money on gas."
Look at how much a Prius actually costs. Then look at cars that have similar sticker prices & drive them. A Prius V has an MSRP of $30,565. A Passat TDI w/ sunroof & NAV has an MSRP of $30,265 with destination.

I'll even go a step further. Look at a Passat V6. Rated at 28 mpg on the highway. Let's say someone walks into a VW dealer jonesing for a Passat TDI. The dealer has a TDI & a VR6 on the lot with almost identical stickers & options. He's willing to take a small discount off the sticker of the TDI, but is generously discounting the VR6 (then additional cash from VW). The TDI's interest rate is 4.9% for 60 months and the VR6 has 1.9% or 0.9% for 60 months. Which car saves joe consumer the most money?

The Prius, the TDI Passat, or the VR6 Passat?

dino001

To be completely fair, there is a good chance of better resale value, especially for short term (3-4 years), but it's not a given for longer term.
Until the long-term battery replacement record is established (will take another 5 years or more), it is still open, how much those 6-8 year old Priuses will be worth, not to mention 10+ years old ones. The owners may need to pay somebody to take one from them

BTW, short term story would also fly in the face of all that "eco-sustainability", so eagerly stressed by some, just environmental harm done by the production and disposal of batteries. Either way, while having a compelling "story" on their face, hybrids and electrics do not have details exactly squared away and the industry is not least bit interested in making those stories straight.

Kirstie_H

In fairness, I'd say I see more people who just love the idea of the technology, reduced emissions, and who enjoy seeing how much they can eke out of a tank of gas (as a sport rather than savings), than those who buy Prii because they're convinced of an overall savings.

I only mentioned my neighbor because I know that he did it to save on gas expenses. Goodness knows he doesn't care about the environment... or anything that doesn't directly affect him. (Yet again on Monday he put out his trash bin with no lid and small, loose trash on the top that blew into my driveway long before the trash truck arrived.)

gdrayer

The car comes with a slow 120V level 1 12A charger. I constructed an Open EVSE 240V level charger. A full L2 charge at 16A takes around 7 hours. The car usually tells me it will take 3.5 to 4 hours when I get home.

Commercial L2 chargers are $500 - 1000 plus install.

Non weekends I drive about 50 miles per day. My electric bill went up about $50 per month at around .17 per KWH.

driver100

, but those compact owners get really stressed out when they get "only" 42 mpg instead of promised 45 mpg

I agree, excellent post...really enjoyable to read.

It reminds me of the people who panic and sell their stocks when the market goes down, then they buy again when the market is high. There is some kind of fear factor that makes people do this...must be some kind of defence mechanism left over from cave man days.

driver100

A Prius V has an MSRP of $30,565. A Passat TDI w/ sunroof & NAV has an MSRP of $30,265

I will say one thing. A Jetta with a tried and true diesel motor will get 30 miles per gallon in town and 42 mpg on the highway, 34 in mixed driving.

If I just cared about my driving pleasure I would take the Passat, if I was a really cheap b------, I mean really fruga, I would go with the tried and true Jetta diesel.

stickguy

well, with your plans for it, you will never get the benefit to make it worth while, though you might make it all back on resale.

oldfarmer50

anyone else having trouble posting?

snakeweasel

If one drives it, it will warm up faster.

Yes I know if one drives a car it will warm up faster. But for most, if not all, of a 3 mile drive the car won't be properly warmed up.

Also keep in mind that the Prius as a whole gets great gas mileage on short trips.

You are the first one to tell me that, most people say that on short trips the Prius isn't that great in milage. If you drive mostly short trips (say 5 miles or under) you are most likely better with a smaller fule efficent car.

sterlingdog

"...buying extended warranties are a losing proposition..."

Of all the people on planet Earth, I suppose that I should be the one to buy an extended warranty on every appliance, car, computer, TV. etc. I never have done it. I guess that I'm too tight to spend the extra money and/or I have a price paid in my head that is max to me. I have always figured that if the worst happened, I would just absorb the loss. In 50 years and 14 houses, it has only happened twice---once a washing machine and once a dishwasher. I think of all of the other objects that never caused a problem. The law of averages is definitely on my side.

Let's look at the two items that I had to replace out of pocket. We will assume that each appliance cost $500 for a total of $1,000. A thousand dollars divided by 50 years is $20 per year or $1.66 per month. Let's say that I purchased an extended warranty for a dishwasher, stove, refrigerator, wall oven, washing machine, and dryer for each of the 14 houses. That's six appliances per house which equals 84 appliances. At a conservative estimate of $100 extended warranty per appliance, that comes to $8,400. For 50 years that equals $168 per year or $14.00 per month. In the long run, I saved myself $12.34 per month for 50 years. Therefore, if something in my house gives out with no warranty, I'm not upset about it.

I did purchase my first extended warranty last month---on my Smart Phone. Why? Because I'm not well coordinated and I may drop the phone on hard pavement, down a sewer drain, or lose it while I'm out. They will replace my $600 phone for $50. For some unknown reason, my brain instructed me to do this. Either that, or I'm just becoming more cautious in my old age.

Richard

stickguy

most people don't (as you do) understand the law of averages.

They will fixate on the one time they could have bought a $100 warranty, and avoided a $300 repair, but ignore all the other times they flushed the $100 down the drain.

stickguy

Turns out that if you drive longer distances, you get better MPG. Took the van on our trip to the outer banks, and got 26 on the trip down, and just filled up after 4 days of running around local and got a bit over 24. Pretty good for the whale (as we like to call it!)

much better than the 15-17 we usually get back at home.

Not sure some of the options (such as a V6 Santa Fe) will do any better, but should improve with a CX-5 or CR-V. Not that MPG is the primary reason (size, and my wife just being done with the whole minivan thing are!)

driver100

, I saved myself $12.34 per month for 50 years

Two things:
1st, great, you are using the Driver Method of Dolllar Cost Averaging very well.

2nd, You were flipping houses so it wouldn't make sense for you to buy an extended warranty. Unfortunately, the buyers are the one's who will have to absorb the cost of those appliance repairs.

Actually, I agree with you 100% it is going to work out better if you just don't buy EWs. But, sometimes it is a wise thing to do in certain situations.
Sometimes, it is just a gut feeling, such as the peace of mind of replacing a $600 phone for $50. My gut feeling is because of my last Bosch experience, a $300 repair one month after the DW warranty expired.

I almost never get extended warranties. Got one on a $400 laser printer from Best Buy and it broke down and they replaced it, though new ones would only cost about $200 to replace.

Got a 3 year extended warranty on our 1999 Mercedes and never used it. On the 2003 Mercedes the power window stopped working 1 month after the 4 year warranty expired, cost $400 to repair. Still further ahead but still aggravating.

Anyway, by buying the EW, I will make sure it will work perfectly, for 5 years, and then will break down one month later. If I didn't buy the EW, it will break down in the 13th month.

stickguy

one thing about those cell phone warranties. They ain't all you think they are. Pretty sure you have to pay per month also ($8?) and there are deductibles. So not quite like paying $50 and being able to get a brand new phone for nothing 2 years later!

sterlingdog

You are exactly right. I do pay $5 per month for the extended warranty.

Richard

driver100

You are exactly right. I do pay $5 per month for the extended warranty.

Hah! $5 a month = $60 a year = $180 for 3 years + $50 upfront = $230.

More than 1/3 the price of a new phone (think how many people would have to break for them to lose money - more than 1 in 3 - in this case there is more profit in the warranty than in the phone). In 3 years the price of a new phone will have dropped to about a quarter of what it is now, or they will have cell phones they will implant into your head.

The $5 a month sounds like nothing for such assurance you will get a replacement phone. One big problem with those plans is actually making a claim. I imagine they will find whatever means possible to avoid paying, or they will give you a replacement that has 3 year old technology!

That gives me an idea. I think we should warranty our books against any defects....add a 30% warranty, on a $4 book an extra $1.20 for full replacement.

kyfdx

If your teenager is the one with the phone, you'll still come out ahead with the warranty.. :surprise:

oldfarmer50

"...if you drive longer distances, you get better MPG..."

Points out how much worse a cold engine performs. Also I think that many short trips build up carbon which reduces milage. In the old days we would justify our wild driving by saying that we needed to "blow the carbon out". A long road trip probably does the same thing. After driving a few hundred miles at highway speeds I notice a few extra MPG for weeks in regular driving. I've had dealers try to sell me throttle body cleaners and injector cleaners which probably do the same thing as winding up the RPMs on an empty road.

As to the Prius I think the regenerative braking helps the milage quite a bit in stop and go driving.

sterlingdog

"I think we should warranty our books..."

You probably need malpractice insurance on your books. In this day and age, some parent may sue you because a book read by their child destroyed their self-esteem, or an adult claims that one of your "How To" books didn't work for them. It's crazy out there.

What happened to the emotorcons?

Richard

jmonroe

What happened to the emotorcons?

I was wondering the same thing. (insert the confused one here)

jmonroe

Kirstie_H

Huh. I still see them. :confuse:

tjc78

:mad:

Test Complete..... I never knew you could only use five. I got a message after the 5th one.

oldfarmer50

"...malpractice on books..."

I got a paper cut once, can I sue driver100 for his BMW. It gave me nightmares for years you know

"...what happened to the emotocons..."

Mine were gone last night when I had trouble posting from the I-pad but not my desktop. Back now. My question is why the ? Mark in the left corner where there use to be a Facebook icon? :confuse:

Kirstie_H

I still see the facebook icon. May be a browser-specific issue.

imidazol97

I don't see where he posted since April 10. Hope he was just busy walkiing the getting stronger!

fezo

Here I am. It's been a little shaky but continue to progress. Of course there is the stress of wondering whether driver will be leaving me a 3er (Great!), a Passatt (no argument there) or a Jetta (Hey, can't we rent from the B level aisle?....)

I have taken up a new hobby that I haven't done for weeks - eating. After letting the nasty old GI system die now we try to start up a new one, So far so good.

Yesterday I was just beat. Doing OK, better each day, but slept a lot.

Another 10 days or so and they should kick me out.

nyccarguy

Go fezo go! Keep it up Steve!

You aren't missing much on the baseball front. Santana is off to a smokin start, unfortunately he has received ZERO run support. Hopefully they'll trade him to the Yankees sometime in the next few months. David Wright has an undisclosed pinky injury which in Mets terms means he's out for the rest of the season.

imidazol97

>Doing OK, better each day,

Better each day. It's great to hear you say that. You're getting to the end of that tunnel.

fezo

Not unless the Yankees take Bay in the deal and pick up all the money.

Santana's a funny case. If you keep him and his arm falls off you look silly but if he can be even 2/3 of the pitcher he was he's worth every nickle.

Bay you can't even trade. I mean maybe you find someone who will let you pay for him to play for you. At the moment almost any semi-prospect would be better.

That said, they are 4 - 2 and I see a team building. Pitching is set up for a while, you've got a serviceable infield. Some real depth would help. I still say about a .500 club for the year.

tjc78

I still say about a .500 club for the year.

Maybe..... but, we all know the Phillies (although off to a slow start) will be taking the division.

roadburner

here are a lot of people out there who are extremely short sighted on things, especially when it comes to "saving money on gas.". They don't take into account the depreciation of their current gas guzzling SUV and the fact they're paying top dollar for that subcompact or hybrid.

Great minds think alike! Here's an excerpt from a monthly column I write for a local newspaper:

DON'T PANIC!- With talk of $5.00/gallon gasoline making headlines I thought I should revisit and update an issue I discussed about one year ago. I'm already starting to hear "screamer" ads on television and radio telling people to "TRADE IN YOUR OLD GAS GUZZLER FOR A NEW XYZ MOTORS SEDAN- WITH 40 MPG ECONOMY!!!" And I'm sure you've heard people say, "Gas prices are eating me alive, I just have to buy a new car."
The fact of the matter is, high fuel prices are no excuse for making a poor automotive purchasing decision. The last time gas prices spiked I remember people were buying those terribly mediocre Smart cars for list price- or even higher. These "shrewd" buyers were then stuck on a waiting list- and by the time their Smart car arrived gas prices had settled down and they were stuck with a tiny car that really wasn't suited for anything more than urban commuting. That is why I always say that you have to do the math.
Here's an example: I recently found a very nice 2010 Mini Cooper for sale. It had less than 10,000 miles on the odometer and had every option I wanted. The Mini gets @39 mpg while my 2007 Mazda averaged about 23 mpg. After doing a little research I determined that I could probably get the Mini by trading in my Mazda and paying $10,000. Great deal, right? An almost-new car that gets 15 more mpg for "only" $10,000. As it turns out, running the numbers showed that it wasn't a great deal. Let's assume gas is $5.00 per gallon and that I drive 20,000 miles per year. The Mazda's annual fuel cost will be $4,348 while the Mini would use $2,564 worth of gas- an annual savings of $1,784. Fantastic! The only problem is the fact that I have to pay $10,000 in order to "save" that money. Dividing the purchase cost by the annual fuel savings shows that I would have to drive the Mini for 5.6 years before I actually started saving money. And if I drove 15,000 miles per year I would have to drive the Mini for almost 7.5 years just to break even! Also note that I'm not taking into account the cost of interest on a car loan, increased insurance costs, or higher property taxes due to the Mini being a newer vehicle. As it turns out, I started utilizing some smart driving habits and discovered that I was able to increase the Mazda's average fuel economy to 27 mpg- which at $5.00 per gallon saves me $644 outright. Now, I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't consider a vehicle's fuel efficiency when buying a new or used car, but I AM saying that trading a car solely to save money on fuel costs almost never makes financial sense.

billy3554

One should consider resale value as well as expected maintenance and repair costs in any overall cost comparison. As many of us recognize, a VW will likely have significant repair costs. Resale and repair costs are major reasons leasing is very attractive to many.

The net price of a vehicle at time of delivery along with financing are not always determining factors. Paying a higher price for a vehicle often is offset by a higher trade in value, rendering difference in prices paid moot. In such cases, saving a bit on gas can be determining factor.

And no, I do not own a Prius, like so many I own an SUV and a large sedan.

dino001

The net price of a vehicle at time of delivery along with financing are not always determining factors.

Yes and no. If depretiation cost expressed as percentage of initial transaction is the same, say 50%, 50% of 30K is still more than 50% of 20K, hence overall cost differential is still in favor of the cheaper vehicle. It may not be full purchase difference, but it is still there.

Also, Prius is a special case to me, as future costs are still unknown. Electric motors are actually less complex than internal combustion engines, but they are here not instead, but on top of the gas-powered, which means we have a net increase in complexity and moving parts department, as well as electronics and electrical parts - ergo, more things can go wrong. Yes, the orginator (Toyota) has better overall record, but Prius future costs is still in category of, using Mr. Rumsfeld's expression, "unknown unknowns". Just saying...

Kirstie_H

Not that I anticipate anyone here qualifying, but thought I'd share anyway:

If you recently traded in a gas guzzler for a more fuel-efficient new vehicle, a reporter wants to talk with you. Please email PR@edmunds.com no later than Friday, April 13, 2012 with your daytime contact info and the makes and models of the vehicles.

nyccarguy

LMAO @ Bay! The Yankees wouldn't even take him if The Mets were to pay the rest of his salary.

I'd LOVE to have Santana pitching on my team behind CC! Especially in August during the heat of a pennant race where Santana has only lost 2 or 3 games lifetime.

The Mets latest stroke of brilliance is to HONOR Larry "Chipper" Jones during the last Mets/Braves game of the season @ CITI FIELD. Yes Fezo, I said honor the guy who's been a MET killer for the better part of the past 2 decades.

nyccarguy

Very well written article. You even took it a step further and actually did the math.

I'm honored that you consider me on a similar intellectual plane as yourself.

fezo

Honoring Larry? Thank you, sir, may I have another?

nyccarguy

I agree that there are SO many factors including what you mentioned, what roadburner mentioned, & what I mentioned that SHOULD go into making a fairly large (thirty something thousand dollar) purchase, but many people put weight on ONE particular thing.

It's just like ISELLHONDAS says: So many times people would come in to buy a car from him "making excuses" to buy a new car. The people who made excuses were many times people who shouldn't be buying a new car. They also HAD to have Leather, Sunroof, Navigation... The LX model would never "do."

I've got a coupe, small sedan, & an SUV.

I just leased my current 328xi for no good reason other than I always wanted a BMW. I Love it beyond words!

driver100

You probably need malpractice insurance on your books.

Once when I managed a bookstore we got in a new book about how to treat your aching back. The book was recalled within the week because there was some information that someone could sue over.

Forget emotorcons, I can't even get the BOLD etc.
I will say, the word emotorcons has a red wavy line under it so I think we are getting automatic spellcheck...that should make you happy!

tjc78

I just leased my current 328xi for no good reason other than I always wanted a BMW

I've bought/leased many a car for "no good reason".....it feels so good!

I've prepared my Fiance that after we get her something new after the wedding I want an older car as a mini-project/cruiser. At the moment she said OK, but I'm sure that will change!

driver100

I got a paper cut once, can I sue driver100 for his BMW.

If the lady could sue McDonalds for $million for dropping a cup of coffee into her own lap I guess you could try sueing me for a paper cut.

I did get a good laugh out of that one. Of course, I could tell you if you had bought the extended warranty you would have been reimbursed.