You have the luxury of buying Anywhere up and down the east coast. I'd search out dealers up and the i95 corridor and when you find the proper deal (ie invoice minus incentives) pack up drive down and get it. I don't believe base model Passats w/manuals are flying off the lots. A co worker just bought a fully loaded Passat TDI and had no problem scoring a "great" deal (sorry don't have specifics, but this guy is a tightwad).
I'd search out dealers up and the i95 corridor and when you find the proper deal
I don't think I have too much bargaining power. Discounts are only around $1100. Dealer fees are fairly constant. Passats are selling very quickly so there isn't too much in the way of incentives or finding a dealer that needs a sale.
I will be happy to get Edmunds True Value Price. I'd rather go through a salesperson who sounds helpful on the phone, than a bidding war. I think the final prices the various dealers give will be close.
I will say, it feels good to be somewhat in control knowing what a fair price is, and i don't have a trade-in that complicates things.
Well, I don't want to jinx us, but next month we begin our 23rd year with our Maytag washer. It's certainly not anywhere near as water efficient as the newer models yet by any measure it has exceeded our expectation for utility and life expectancy. We have only replaced one small valve in those 22 years (and two moves) for a cost of something like $40.
Last year we replaced our 22 year old dryer (purchased at the same time as washer), a Whirlpool, with an LG. The LG is much quieter, sings to us when it's done, but I suspect it will last no where near as long as the Whirlpool--else how will the Chinese keep us chronically in a trade deficit? We had never sunk a nickel into the Whirlpool. Car manufacturers could learn a lesson.
Driver100....Don't forget...the Edmunds price does NOT include the famous Florida dealers "added" Dealer FEE of anywhere from $599.00 to $799.00. There are a few dealers in Florida that do NOT charge this fee....but they are few and far between...I don't know of any VW dealers in Florida that DO NOT charge this ridiculous fee. I live in the Melbourne Beach, Fla. area and have bought at least six NEW vehicles in Florida (with trade-ins) and when I get down to that known dealer fee I ALWAYS (after all the negotiiations all almost over) INSIST on another 5-6-or 7 hundred more for my trade-in or I walk...(AND HAVE NEVER HAD to walk OUT...beieve me...they still make money or they would let me walk.
I've seen a few dealers down in Tampa who say they don't charge the fee but not many. I often wonder how a used car dealer would justify $600 in fees on a $2000 car.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Dealer FEE of anywhere from $599.00 to $799.00. There are a few dealers in Florida that do NOT charge this fee..
Thanks for your comments nortd, much appreciated. I have checked about 6 VW dealers and they all charge that fee...$599 or $699. The dealer I am talking to says they have the lowest fee in the area, and it is $489, however, that doesn't mean much if the discount is less.
There is a dealer in the Tampa area that does advertise NO Dealer Fees, they actually say you shouldn't have to pay the dealer a fee to buy a car from them. But, I am sure they will make you pay some other way.
It seems to me dealer fees are about $400 in Canada, but transportation is around $1200, so the $500 dealer fee plus $800 transportation fee kind of balance out...using the Driver Method of how to Justify Almost Anything.
It isn't worthwhile for me to travel great distances to save $100 or $200. I might be better off to wait until the end of the month and ask dealers to give me their best price, but if I am ordering a 2013 car for November it probably won't get counted in Augusts sales.
I don't think I have much real bargaining power, seems like $600 or $700 off MSRP and $200 above invoice is as good as I can do. If my wife wasn't so insistant on a European car I would try for a 2012 Fusion or Accord, but, that isn't going to happen! :sick:
I often wonder how a used car dealer would justify $600 in fees on a $2000 car.
I think he is saying, when he buys a new car, which will have a $600 or $700 dealer fee, he asks for an additional $600-$700 on his trade-in, to make up for the dealer fee.
That basically wipes out the extra cost of the dealer fee.
I would not file a claim because of the possible adverse consequences. First, at the least, your premium will be increased and at the extreme your policy might be cancelled for excessive claims. But a more insidious outcome is the notion of “diminished value.”
In the event of a future loss your claim will be reduced by the diminished value and so would be your trade-in or re-sale value....In short, you should fix the damage at your own expense.
We just got back from the OBX. We went CT,NY,PA,MD,VA,NC and the reverse on the way back. 1732 miles and used 71.8 gallons of gas for an average of 24.1. The Explorer is rated at 23 mpg highway. Your main problem was that 'roof bag'. They kill your mileage. Years ago, one of my BIL's and their neighbor met up in Florida and drove back to CT together. They had identical Explorers. My BIL had my Thule hard shell rocket box and the neighbor had the bag. Every time they stopped for fuel, the neighbor took 5 more gallons of gas. Those bags are cheap but they chew up the savings in a hurry.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Welcome back my friend. I hear what you are saying about the roof bag being not as efficient as a more aerodynamic roof box, but I've taken the Pilot on another trip (CT - Pittsburgh, PA) and don't think I broke 18 on that trip either. My Pilot is rated @ 16/22. I always expect to get less than EPA numbers by 2 mpg (even with the post 2008 ratings). I just expected more from Honda. It's the combination of the weight, the (only) 5 speed automatic, the (only) 250 hp...
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I try to keep it around 5 over, so I'm thinking that plays into it, too. My Explorer is about 4800 to the Pilot's 4600. A big difference is a 6 speed trans, because the Explorer has 290 hp.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
. I hear what you are saying about the roof bag being not as efficient
Last trip on the wway to Florida I saw several cars with one of these. I guess it wouldn't cut down on aerodynamics as much, but what a way to carry a few extra items.
Buy in NY on your way through. Dealer fee is capped at $45
I would love to do that, but then I would have to get the car relicensed and all that in Florida. Taxes on a $24000 car are about $1485 so I guess Florida tax is 6%. How does that compare with N.Y.
$45 really makes more sense. Actually, I think about $120 to $200 might be fair considering the paperwork involved, but over that is a total rip-off.
The office we would go to in Florida is called "The Tax Collector" - couldn't they come up with a better name, like Tax Collection Central or something, and you take a number and wait for about 80 people to make their various payments etc. I am almost glad to have someone do that if it costs $600. :sick:
$45 really makes more sense. Actually, I think about $120 to $200 might be fair considering the paperwork involved, but over that is a total rip-off.
Zero dollars makes more sense. It should be rolled into the cost of doing business just like everything else we buy from toothpaste to suits. But the car biz has its own way of selling so we have to adjust for that.
We’ve hit on this before. You were here when I was berated by several of the salesmen that used to hang out here because I called a dealership and merely asked if it was true that there had been a DOC fee increase in PA (post 39840 stated it all). Do you really want to start something like that again? Remember your name will be on the post this time.
If I understand this doc fee thing correctly, the sales person gets none of it. It is pure profit for the dealership. Other than a very small amount of paper work cost which as I said should be part of doing business.
This is why an OTD price can be a buyer’s best friend a lot of times. Although when I buy I factor in their DOC fee cost and I figure the sales tax myself too because my calculator works for nothing.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The LG is much quieter, sings to us when it's done, but I suspect it will last no where near as long as the Whirlpool--else how will the Chinese keep us chronically in a trade deficit?
Well, LG is Korean, so not sure how the Chinese factor into this.
You were here when I was berated by several of the salesmen
I am not worried because there aren't too many salesmen here these days, except Mike and he doesn't get too upset at our dumba$$ comments. (speaking of which, where is he these days). And, Boomcheck only checks in once every 2 years.
I do think it is fair to charge something for paperwork because the dealership could give you an option of doing the paperwork yourself. It is really easier to have them do it and then you can just pick up your car and drive away.
I suppose they could give you the option, and then you can decide if their price is fair, I think in that case they would have to make the dealer price reasonable.
>I do think it is fair to charge something for paperwork because the dealership
Isn't doing the paperwork, which is just a matter of sending the title to the title bureau to be transferred to the new owner and putting on the temporary license tag, which we never need, just part of selling the car?
Does Kroger charge you for printing out the receipt from the register? A register document fee?
Does the plumbing supply shop charge for keeping the copper pipe on the shelf until you buy it and put it in your car to take home?
The dealership has found a way to add on charges and it's aided by the legislatures in the states who are lobbied by the dealer association.
"...Florida is 6%. How does that compare with NY?..."
7% to 9+% depending on which county you buy in. I know that if you buy in NY but take delivery out of state there is no sales tax charged until you register in the new state. I read recently that NY DMV will give a temp. Registration to transport out of state. For some reason MA doesn't recognize it but I assume others do.
The process is pretty confusing to me and others to the point where there is a sales tax discussion board here on Edmunds. My guess is the government does that so you will just forget the whole thing.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I think they are COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. Ok, the $75 NY has them capped at is fine. Whatever. I'm not going to cry about that. But I've purchased 2 cars in CT (wife's Pilot $299 & Dad's Tahoe $369) where the dealers charge a conveyance fee (doc fee) & Im not sure what it's capped at. It's complete BS because everything is done electronically. The dealers even have license plates there. It's not even like you have to pay an employee to manually type out the paperwork.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I agree completely with your comments and those of other posters who find DEALER FEES just added profit for dealerships.
Titles, title fees, registration and costs of tags are shown on your bill of sale are apart from other fees as are title agency's fees for electronic filing of paperwork for acquiring these titles and tags (license plates). Then there are DOC fees (documentary stamps) that are associated with the retail sale of a vehicle with a loan acquired from a financial institution. Then there are lease acquisition fees charged by banks for leasing a vehicle (the dealer does not get a kickback on those fees, they are fees charged by the financial institution or finance arm of the manufacturer).
Dealer fees are, pure and simply, "added profit" for the dealer on the sale or lease of a new (sale of a used car also) vehicle. Here in Florida, it is almost impossible to find an auto dealership who does not charge these fees. If you can find a dealership who does not charge these fees, they make up for them in their out-the-door price or in some other way. When you pay invoice for a car you are actually paying $600-$800 over invoice due to those dealer fees.
How or why these dealer fees are are allowable is not known to me even though I was in the business for 10 years. But I believe these fees to be a complete rip-off! In Florida, if a dealer charges a dealer fee, it shows up, pre-printed, on yhe bill of sale because it must be charged to every customer on every sale, by state law. However, dealers can, and do, negotiate this fee in their selling price, if you insist on such negotiations, as mentioned in a previous post, such as insisting that the ACV (actual cash value) of their trade be increased by the amount of the dealer fee.
Frankly, I wish that all dealer fees be outlawed in all states so the customer can openly and aggressively deal for his/her car with all known costs shown prior to such negotiations.
just seems like a way to slide a little extra profit in at the end, since many people probably don't think to negotiate the dealer fee into the price. And since there are other DMV fees there that you have to pay, it can kind of get lost in the shuffle.
in NJ, it seems they usually run in the $199-$249 range.
Does Kroger charge you for printing out the receipt from the register?
I do think there is some extra work involved in registering the car, getting the actual license...I don't know if it can be done from the office or if they have to go to the DOV office.
I would say it is more like a lawyer charging you for every fax or photocopy they make. It isn't quite like buying something at Krogers, because the dealer is doing the work you would normally do....it's just not worth what they charge.
I agree it is a scam, it is like they all get together and made up this unrealistic fee............but, I think it is reasonable to be compensated for the actual time to register a car at about $30 an hour!
no sales tax charged until you register in the new state
That would work for me, but I know something would go wrong. I'd buy the car in Buffalo but somehow not register it until I drove it down to Florida.
What's that, if anything can go wrong then something will go wrong, and there are too many places where this could really fall apart.
It would be interesting to see what the difference in price would be, but that extra percentage or 2 or 3 of tax would bring the price right back up to the same anyway.
It's complete BS because everything is done electronically.
According to my BMW salesman, who I am not so sure I can believe, he said the dealers profit is getting cut these days. It seems with internet selling, fierce competition, etc. the dealer has decided this is a way to make some extra profit for themselves....and customers won't complain because they want their new car and it all sounds logical. Who even knows if transportation costs are real, they could be padded too.
The dealer fee on the Audi was $295 in Ontario Canada, about half what it is for a car that costs half as much in Florida ($600 or $700 in Florida for the Passat, but I suppose the fee should be the same no matter what the cost of the car).
Yesterday I went and test drove a X5 diesel. I've heard good things about this motor and was curious to take a closer look. I was not driving because I need a car, but you guys know all about how that works. Brief summary - Louder outside the car than expected but not unpleasant to me. This engine puts out 425 Ft/lb of torque at 1750rpm, but it takes some throttle travel to get to it; once it hits though, it pulls the car well. 70 mph was around 2000rpm, so passing is easy. Gauge was showing about 30mpg at 65-70mph, so no complaints there. Quiet, ride a little firm but not as bad as my 08 RDX, pretty livable despite run-flats. Reservations - Idrive/Nav is just silly complicated, and I'm a gadget guy. Voice commands work okay but are slow to process. Cargo area is simply okay, seems like it should be bigger. Was about 100 outside, and the AC felt a little underpowered, but it may not have been at the max setting.
Having random crazy thoughts, I wouldn't want something like this outside of warranty, so a lease seems to make a little more sense here. I've only leased a car once before, so I would have some homework to do, but the base lease from BMW seems pretty competitive even before any negotiating, and I don"t need more than 10k miles per year. This is for a base car, which I'm okay with. X5 lease thread says the MF is .00145. Buyout at end of term is $33k...all the 3 YO CPO diesels I've seen locally at low-mid $40's, so equity at the end of the lease seems likely. Why did I look at this thing again?
I always divide businesses into two groups. One provides a product/service with straightforward pricing and its stance is "here is our product/service, it is worth X, you buy or you don't - we appreciate your business". Second group does ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING to obsure actual cost of the item/service they provide. Basically it is about advertizing (in print, over the phone, in four-square sheet, or other form) a certain price point that appears to be very appealing. Exorbitant fees is not the only bullet in their arsenal (others are plays with financing or trade). It is basically too tempting, because it allows to advertise lower prices than actual and either pocket the higher profit, or pretend to sell the goods at loss or "below cost". Their usual justification is that "everybody does that, so we have to". Basically the name of the game is make one believe they are paying less than they really are - because if you knew how much it really costs, you may walk away. Their usual justification is that "everybody does that, so we have to". It may be true, but just like my mom says if everybody was jumping off the cliff, would you?
I personally can't stand "type 2" busissess. It always strikes me as "one time use", because by the time the process is completed, you don't want to have anything in common with these people, even if you actually get a decent price or service. Just the bad taste in your mouth is too strong.
Auto retailers aren't the only ones to do this (phone companies, many banks, some other larger ticket stores, like furniture, or appliance), but they seem to have perfected it to make it an art. As much as I love cars and could talk about them for hours, I would probably get fired after two or three days if I tried to be a car salesman.
Thanks to all of you who gave your advice and opinions on having the convertible repaired. There was never any other option in my mind; I had to have it done. Regardless of what I wanted, my wife would never have stood for me not having the car fixed. She's become pretty impatient about it as well. In her words, "We didn't buy this big, Georgian house just so I could ride around in your wrecked convertible,." Funny how it suddenly becomes totally MY car.
I took Jmonroe's advice and sought out two additional estimates. My former student wanted $887. The other estimates were $997 and $1,075. Today, I took the car to my former student. He'll have it ready by Thursday or Friday. While there, he pointed out two rock dents nearer to the rear of the car. He's throwing those into the original price.
I had to smile when I read Driver's post. He was concerned that my former student might be too young and inexperienced to do a really good job. My former student is 50 years old and has been running his shop for 30 years. Yes, I know where that puts me. I may be as old as dirt, but my soil is still well fertilized. As for my student having an axe to grind, I think not. He recalled that I taught him how to write a business letter and how to balance his check book. I think that the convertible is safe from harm. In fact, I was looking at some of his handy work this morning as I waited to see him. He had three cars ready for delivery. They looked very nice.
are what happen when the people buying vehicles have access to what they actually cost. Years ago, that wasn't the case. Now it is.
OTD negotiating works every time it's tried. If the first guy doesn't like your number, go to the next one, then the next one after that. He who cares least wins the negotiation. . .every time.
If you live in Florida, deal elsewhere. . . or bring out the lubricant.
I put about 150 miles on an X5 diesel last year. Bottom line, it was horrible. Too many noises and no power. Fuel mileage was a bright spot, but who buys it for that when everything else was bad?
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I was just reading one expert who says the car of the future will be........wait for it.................gas powered cars with turbos.
Deisels have lots of advantages, especially longer lasting engines. A deisel is one BMW you may want to actually own rather than lease. My 2004 X3 is still going fine.....my daughter has it and they got a 3 year warranty and have only had the usual repairs since 2008.
I just don't know how you couldn't have enough room in an X5. What could be significantly larger? And what are you using it for, especially at 10K miles a year?
Interesting review though. My neighbor has a 2002 Jetta deisel with 300000 miles on it, and no problems.
As for my student having an axe to grind, I think not.
I was just thinking about the little brats err, students I taught and I sure wouldn't trust them to repair my car. I often wonder wwhat they are doing today. When I taught them I often wondered what the heck these students would ever be able to do when they became adults!!!!!
Sorry, I just pictured some kid saying I am finally going to fix this guy and put some nice sugar in his tank. Just joking, glad it worked out, but, I think you were wise to get more estimates, now you know you got a good price and can sleep at night.
Others said if you charge a certain price for a dealer fee it is discrimination to not charge the same to others. Seems it can't be negotiated. It's a catch 22.
How do you walk when the fee is even more down the street.
In my case, not sure if you were referring to me, but she was supposed to get me a quote today but I didn't get it yet. I also wrote to the Audi guy to get a progress report and he is away on vacation. These car people ???? :sick:
One thing you have to consider with those hitch racks is that you are 'supposed to' move the license plate so it is visible.
Good point, most of the ones I saw were so loaded up with junk I don't know if you could see the licence. It seems to me if you are that deparate to carry another foot of garbage around you should buy a larger car next time. What a way to travel, with junk tied to your back bumper.
I had to smile when I read Driver's post. He was concerned that my former student might be too young and inexperienced to do a really good job. My former student is 50 years old and has been running his shop for 30 years.
I was almost ready to post the same thing that ‘driver’ posted. Then I remembered how old you are and that this could have been one of your students from way back. I guess I was right.
Don’t feel bad. About a month ago a guy that I helped break in announced his retirement. I remember when he didn’t know squat. Then he went on to become my boss about 12 years later. You should have heard what I took from my fellow workers when that happened. I got the, “he past you up. You must have taught him pretty well, if that’s what you call it”. I threw it back at all of them saying, “I had help, didn’t I? The funny part of this is I turned down that position. A manager a step above him said to me one day after that, “You were our first choice. What are you trying to do, commit career suicide? The next time a position comes along I suggest you take it”.
I got to thinking about what that guy said and I knew he was right. I had to get off my kick of knocking management and even my fellow workers noticed it, saying, “you ought to be getting a management job any day now”. I used to say, “you’ll never see me in one of those chairs”. I guess you can never say never when you have mouths to feed. At least that’s the way I looked at it. I can’t say I was surprised when the offer came but I had fun knocking management for a good while though.
Yes, I know where that puts me.
I know. I just told you why I know. :sick:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Yeah, given the torque numbers, I could see how it would seem underwhelming. I actually found power the okay, but as I said, it seemed like you really had to step on it for the [presumably electronic] throttle to respond. Probably programmed this way for MPG, I haven't driven a gas model to compare.
I just don't know how you couldn't have enough room in an X5. What could be significantly larger? And what are you using it for, especially at 10K miles a year?
Good questions. I'm the midsize truck guy from a month or two ago ( I looked at a few, most are just plain uncomfortable, so I'm checking out alternatives). I work from home so no commute. When I use the car, its for outdoor activities. Example this labor day, my wife and I have friends flying in and we are backpacking the Sierras for a few days. Winter, we do a lot of ski trips with friends. I average 6-7k miles a year, its pretty much all on weekends. I didn't look at the diesel because I'm a road trip machine, but more because BMW wants to unload them more.
The X5 packaging is funny. Noticeably more passenger room for sure than my RDX. A little more cargo room, but not as much as the exterior footprint would lead one to believe. The nice thing is BMW offers it without the 3rd row(unlike the MDX), so you get a nice-sized storage bin under the floor. I see that a XC70 has more cargo volume, but you never know how much of that is actually usable until you look in person. I guess that's the fun of shopping.
I have no argument with your OTD approach. What I do recommend is that when and if it is used, the buyer/client should know or at least be aware of what fees, taxes, ACV (actual cash value) of the trade,etc., are being used to arrive at that out-the-door price. As a former sales manager and sales associate in new car dealerships, it would have been great if OTD pricing was desired by every customer. That way, trades, profits and fees are all grouped together and each can be adjusted, as needed, to arrive at the best OTD pricing. But the customer will never know what he is really being allowed for his trade. That is why most car buyers either refuse or chose not to use the OTD pricing approach.
Yes, ACV is shown on the buyers order or bill of sale. So if a customer uses the OTD approach, gets his best deal, and when he signs the buyers order, he sees an ACV for his vehicle that is lower than he thinks it should be, the whole deal could blow up in the finance office. That is why OTD does not always work.
I shop and buy cars using OTD because I fully understand all of its components. But not all people are familiar or trust that approach. They want to know the ACV of their trade first; then the amount over invoice they are paying; then what additional fees are involved. Believe me when I tell you that all dealerships would love to do OTD negotiating because it is simpler, takes less time negotiating, and is less complicated!
A little more cargo room, but not as much as the exterior footprint would lead one to believe.
That's a good point, I forgot when I bought my 2004 X3 I was surprised that it had more cargo space than the much larger X5. I read some articles at that time and the articles pretty well said, unless you need an SUV for some reason, such as off-roading, you may as well get a station wagon. Wagons actually have more cargo space than comparable SUVs.
Wagons like the XC70 may actually have more useable storage space, for example it might be longer to actually fit your skis better.
Like you said, half the fun is looking.
Getting a large vehicle like an X5 does not appeal to me. I don't like manoevering such a large vehicle, and parking is a lot more difficult. Some spaces are so narrow and I see large SUVs going over the lines. I have driven Sierras and I feel like I am a truck driver, not much feel of the road. I know some people love such vehicles and to each their own, I am just stating my personal opinion. If you go skiing with a group of people....which sounds like fun......then I can see why you need something with a fair amount of room. When we go on our tennis weekend to Ellicottville NY, there are usually about 20 to 26 people, and it is really a ski town in the winter, we go in separate cars, anywhere from 1 to 4 in a car. It is a 100 mile trip....Personally, I prefer doing it that way for some trips, and sometimes it is nice to go as a group. If we go in separate cars we have more flexability once we are there.
Keep us posted on what you find out, and have fun looking.
I saw a news article on TV today that said the Canadian dollar is so strong relative to the US that many of our neighbors are crossing the border to load up on cheap goods. At one Costco near the border some customers jokingly said that they needed separate hours for just Americans so that they could find a place to park in their own country. The reporter strolled the parking lot and almost all the cars were from Canada. Seems US gas is about a dollar cheaper and milk was about two dollars cheaper per gallon.
First the prime Florida real estate and now our milk? Oh the humanity!
I fear for my future as a driver as cars get more and more complicated.
Last night I was trying to order something from eBay (at the boss's request) and found out the seller only took something called "Paypal". Now why I couldn't just use my credit card has me scratching my head but I go ahead and try to sign up. It took me over an hour to create an account including calls to customer service. I could almost hear the girl's eyes rolling as I told her several times that I didn't know how to do the computer things she was suggesting. I ended hanging up in frustration.
So time later I must have pressed the right button by accident and everything worked, I still don't know why. I could have driven 100 miles to a store in the time it took to order a $15 item online. :sick:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
And now you will have to be very careful about emails that are supposedly from paypal asking you to click and sign in (which in reality is giving the scammers your id and password for your account).
Comments
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
I don't think I have too much bargaining power. Discounts are only around $1100. Dealer fees are fairly constant. Passats are selling very quickly so there isn't too much in the way of incentives or finding a dealer that needs a sale.
I will be happy to get Edmunds True Value Price. I'd rather go through a salesperson who sounds helpful on the phone, than a bidding war. I think the final prices the various dealers give will be close.
I will say, it feels good to be somewhat in control knowing what a fair price is, and i don't have a trade-in that complicates things.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Last year we replaced our 22 year old dryer (purchased at the same time as washer), a Whirlpool, with an LG. The LG is much quieter, sings to us when it's done, but I suspect it will last no where near as long as the Whirlpool--else how will the Chinese keep us chronically in a trade deficit? We had never sunk a nickel into the Whirlpool. Car manufacturers could learn a lesson.
Gogiboy
I live in the Melbourne Beach, Fla. area and have bought at least six NEW vehicles in Florida (with trade-ins) and when I get down to that known dealer fee I ALWAYS (after all the negotiiations all almost over) INSIST on another 5-6-or 7 hundred more for my trade-in or I walk...(AND HAVE NEVER HAD to walk OUT...beieve me...they still make money or they would let me walk.
I've seen a few dealers down in Tampa who say they don't charge the fee but not many. I often wonder how a used car dealer would justify $600 in fees on a $2000 car.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Thanks for your comments nortd, much appreciated. I have checked about 6 VW dealers and they all charge that fee...$599 or $699. The dealer I am talking to says they have the lowest fee in the area, and it is $489, however, that doesn't mean much if the discount is less.
There is a dealer in the Tampa area that does advertise NO Dealer Fees, they actually say you shouldn't have to pay the dealer a fee to buy a car from them. But, I am sure they will make you pay some other way.
It seems to me dealer fees are about $400 in Canada, but transportation is around $1200, so the $500 dealer fee plus $800 transportation fee kind of balance out...using the Driver Method of how to Justify Almost Anything.
It isn't worthwhile for me to travel great distances to save $100 or $200. I might be better off to wait until the end of the month and ask dealers to give me their best price, but if I am ordering a 2013 car for November it probably won't get counted in Augusts sales.
I don't think I have much real bargaining power, seems like $600 or $700 off MSRP and $200 above invoice is as good as I can do. If my wife wasn't so insistant on a European car I would try for a 2012 Fusion or Accord, but, that isn't going to happen! :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think he is saying, when he buys a new car, which will have a $600 or $700 dealer fee, he asks for an additional $600-$700 on his trade-in, to make up for the dealer fee.
That basically wipes out the extra cost of the dealer fee.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Here’s my two cents for whatever it's worth:
I would not file a claim because of the possible adverse consequences. First, at the least, your premium will be increased and at the extreme your policy might be cancelled for excessive claims. But a more insidious outcome is the notion of “diminished value.”
In the event of a future loss your claim will be reduced by the diminished value and so would be your trade-in or re-sale value....In short, you should fix the damage at your own expense.
We went CT,NY,PA,MD,VA,NC and the reverse on the way back.
1732 miles and used 71.8 gallons of gas for an average of 24.1.
The Explorer is rated at 23 mpg highway.
Your main problem was that 'roof bag'. They kill your mileage.
Years ago, one of my BIL's and their neighbor met up in Florida and drove back to CT together.
They had identical Explorers. My BIL had my Thule hard shell rocket box and the neighbor had the bag.
Every time they stopped for fuel, the neighbor took 5 more gallons of gas.
Those bags are cheap but they chew up the savings in a hurry.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
My Explorer is about 4800 to the Pilot's 4600.
A big difference is a 6 speed trans, because the Explorer has 290 hp.
Last trip on the wway to Florida I saw several cars with one of these. I guess it wouldn't cut down on aerodynamics as much, but what a way to carry a few extra items.
Hitch Cargo Carrier
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Buy in NY on your way through. Dealer fee is capped at $45.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I would love to do that, but then I would have to get the car relicensed and all that in Florida. Taxes on a $24000 car are about $1485 so I guess Florida tax is 6%. How does that compare with N.Y.
$45 really makes more sense. Actually, I think about $120 to $200 might be fair considering the paperwork involved, but over that is a total rip-off.
The office we would go to in Florida is called "The Tax Collector" - couldn't they come up with a better name, like Tax Collection Central or something, and you take a number and wait for about 80 people to make their various payments etc. I am almost glad to have someone do that if it costs $600. :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Zero dollars makes more sense. It should be rolled into the cost of doing business just like everything else we buy from toothpaste to suits. But the car biz has its own way of selling so we have to adjust for that.
We’ve hit on this before. You were here when I was berated by several of the salesmen that used to hang out here because I called a dealership and merely asked if it was true that there had been a DOC fee increase in PA (post 39840 stated it all). Do you really want to start something like that again? Remember your name will be on the post this time.
If I understand this doc fee thing correctly, the sales person gets none of it. It is pure profit for the dealership. Other than a very small amount of paper work cost which as I said should be part of doing business.
This is why an OTD price can be a buyer’s best friend a lot of times. Although when I buy I factor in their DOC fee cost and I figure the sales tax myself too because my calculator works for nothing.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Well, LG is Korean, so not sure how the Chinese factor into this.
I am not worried because there aren't too many salesmen here these days, except Mike and he doesn't get too upset at our dumba$$ comments. (speaking of which, where is he these days). And, Boomcheck only checks in once every 2 years.
I do think it is fair to charge something for paperwork because the dealership could give you an option of doing the paperwork yourself. It is really easier to have them do it and then you can just pick up your car and drive away.
I suppose they could give you the option, and then you can decide if their price is fair, I think in that case they would have to make the dealer price reasonable.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Isn't doing the paperwork, which is just a matter of sending the title to the title bureau to be transferred to the new owner and putting on the temporary license tag, which we never need, just part of selling the car?
Does Kroger charge you for printing out the receipt from the register? A register document fee?
Does the plumbing supply shop charge for keeping the copper pipe on the shelf until you buy it and put it in your car to take home?
The dealership has found a way to add on charges and it's aided by the legislatures in the states who are lobbied by the dealer association.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
7% to 9+% depending on which county you buy in. I know that if you buy in NY but take delivery out of state there is no sales tax charged until you register in the new state. I read recently that NY DMV will give a temp. Registration to transport out of state. For some reason MA doesn't recognize it but I assume others do.
The process is pretty confusing to me and others to the point where there is a sales tax discussion board here on Edmunds. My guess is the government does that so you will just forget the whole thing.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I agree completely with your comments and those of other posters who find DEALER FEES just added profit for dealerships.
Titles, title fees, registration and costs of tags are shown on your bill of sale are apart from other fees as are title agency's fees for electronic filing of paperwork for acquiring these titles and tags (license plates). Then there are DOC fees (documentary stamps) that are associated with the retail sale of a vehicle with a loan acquired from a financial institution. Then there are lease acquisition fees charged by banks for leasing a vehicle (the dealer does not get a kickback on those fees, they are fees charged by the financial institution or finance arm of the manufacturer).
Dealer fees are, pure and simply, "added profit" for the dealer on the sale or lease of a new (sale of a used car also) vehicle. Here in Florida, it is almost impossible to find an auto dealership who does not charge these fees. If you can find a dealership who does not charge these fees, they make up for them in their out-the-door price or in some other way. When you pay invoice for a car you are actually paying $600-$800 over invoice due to those dealer fees.
How or why these dealer fees are are allowable is not known to me even though I was in the business for 10 years. But I believe these fees to be a complete rip-off! In Florida, if a dealer charges a dealer fee, it shows up, pre-printed, on yhe bill of sale because it must be charged to every customer on every sale, by state law. However, dealers can, and do, negotiate this fee in their selling price, if you insist on such negotiations, as mentioned in a previous post, such as insisting that the ACV (actual cash value) of their trade be increased by the amount of the dealer fee.
Frankly, I wish that all dealer fees be outlawed in all states so the customer can openly and aggressively deal for his/her car with all known costs shown prior to such negotiations.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
in NJ, it seems they usually run in the $199-$249 range.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I do think there is some extra work involved in registering the car, getting the actual license...I don't know if it can be done from the office or if they have to go to the DOV office.
I would say it is more like a lawyer charging you for every fax or photocopy they make. It isn't quite like buying something at Krogers, because the dealer is doing the work you would normally do....it's just not worth what they charge.
I agree it is a scam, it is like they all get together and made up this unrealistic fee............but, I think it is reasonable to be compensated for the actual time to register a car at about $30 an hour!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That would work for me, but I know something would go wrong. I'd buy the car in Buffalo but somehow not register it until I drove it down to Florida.
What's that, if anything can go wrong then something will go wrong, and there are too many places where this could really fall apart.
It would be interesting to see what the difference in price would be, but that extra percentage or 2 or 3 of tax would bring the price right back up to the same anyway.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
According to my BMW salesman, who I am not so sure I can believe, he said the dealers profit is getting cut these days. It seems with internet selling, fierce competition, etc. the dealer has decided this is a way to make some extra profit for themselves....and customers won't complain because they want their new car and it all sounds logical. Who even knows if transportation costs are real, they could be padded too.
The dealer fee on the Audi was $295 in Ontario Canada, about half what it is for a car that costs half as much in Florida ($600 or $700 in Florida for the Passat, but I suppose the fee should be the same no matter what the cost of the car).
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Having random crazy thoughts, I wouldn't want something like this outside of warranty, so a lease seems to make a little more sense here. I've only leased a car once before, so I would have some homework to do, but the base lease from BMW seems pretty competitive even before any negotiating, and I don"t need more than 10k miles per year. This is for a base car, which I'm okay with. X5 lease thread says the MF is .00145. Buyout at end of term is $33k...all the 3 YO CPO diesels I've seen locally at low-mid $40's, so equity at the end of the lease seems likely. Why did I look at this thing again?
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
I personally can't stand "type 2" busissess. It always strikes me as "one time use", because by the time the process is completed, you don't want to have anything in common with these people, even if you actually get a decent price or service. Just the bad taste in your mouth is too strong.
Auto retailers aren't the only ones to do this (phone companies, many banks, some other larger ticket stores, like furniture, or appliance), but they seem to have perfected it to make it an art. As much as I love cars and could talk about them for hours, I would probably get fired after two or three days if I tried to be a car salesman.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I took Jmonroe's advice and sought out two additional estimates. My former student wanted $887. The other estimates were $997 and $1,075. Today, I took the car to my former student. He'll have it ready by Thursday or Friday. While there, he pointed out two rock dents nearer to the rear of the car. He's throwing those into the original price.
I had to smile when I read Driver's post. He was concerned that my former student might be too young and inexperienced to do a really good job. My former student is 50 years old and has been running his shop for 30 years. Yes, I know where that puts me. I may be as old as dirt, but my soil is still well fertilized. As for my student having an axe to grind, I think not. He recalled that I taught him how to write a business letter and how to balance his check book. I think that the convertible is safe from harm. In fact, I was looking at some of his handy work this morning as I waited to see him. He had three cars ready for delivery. They looked very nice.
Richard
OTD negotiating works every time it's tried. If the first guy doesn't like your number, go to the next one, then the next one after that. He who cares least wins the negotiation. . .every time.
If you live in Florida, deal elsewhere. . . or bring out the lubricant.
Too many noises and no power. Fuel mileage was a bright spot, but who buys it for that when everything else was bad?
I was just reading one expert who says the car of the future will be........wait for it.................gas powered cars with turbos.
Deisels have lots of advantages, especially longer lasting engines. A deisel is one BMW you may want to actually own rather than lease. My 2004 X3 is still going fine.....my daughter has it and they got a 3 year warranty and have only had the usual repairs since 2008.
I just don't know how you couldn't have enough room in an X5. What could be significantly larger? And what are you using it for, especially at 10K miles a year?
Interesting review though. My neighbor has a 2002 Jetta deisel with 300000 miles on it, and no problems.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I was just thinking about the little
bratserr, students I taught and I sure wouldn't trust them to repair my car. I often wonder wwhat they are doing today. When I taught them I often wondered what the heck these students would ever be able to do when they became adults!!!!!Sorry, I just pictured some kid saying I am finally going to fix this guy and put some nice sugar in his tank. Just joking, glad it worked out, but, I think you were wise to get more estimates, now you know you got a good price and can sleep at night.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Others said if you charge a certain price for a dealer fee it is discrimination to not charge the same to others. Seems it can't be negotiated. It's a catch 22.
How do you walk when the fee is even more down the street.
In my case, not sure if you were referring to me, but she was supposed to get me a quote today but I didn't get it yet. I also wrote to the Audi guy to get a progress report and he is away on vacation. These car people ???? :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Good point, most of the ones I saw were so loaded up with junk I don't know if you could see the licence. It seems to me if you are that deparate to carry another foot of garbage around you should buy a larger car next time. What a way to travel, with junk tied to your back bumper.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I was almost ready to post the same thing that ‘driver’ posted. Then I remembered how old you are and that this could have been one of your students from way back. I guess I was right.
Don’t feel bad. About a month ago a guy that I helped break in announced his retirement. I remember when he didn’t know squat. Then he went on to become my boss about 12 years later. You should have heard what I took from my fellow workers when that happened. I got the, “he past you up. You must have taught him pretty well, if that’s what you call it”. I threw it back at all of them saying, “I had help, didn’t I? The funny part of this is I turned down that position. A manager a step above him said to me one day after that, “You were our first choice. What are you trying to do, commit career suicide? The next time a position comes along I suggest you take it”.
I got to thinking about what that guy said and I knew he was right. I had to get off my kick of knocking management and even my fellow workers noticed it, saying, “you ought to be getting a management job any day now”. I used to say, “you’ll never see me in one of those chairs”. I guess you can never say never when you have mouths to feed. At least that’s the way I looked at it. I can’t say I was surprised when the offer came but I had fun knocking management for a good while though.
Yes, I know where that puts me.
I know. I just told you why I know. :sick:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It's never fun when you train your replacement.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
Good questions. I'm the midsize truck guy from a month or two ago ( I looked at a few, most are just plain uncomfortable, so I'm checking out alternatives). I work from home so no commute. When I use the car, its for outdoor activities. Example this labor day, my wife and I have friends flying in and we are backpacking the Sierras for a few days. Winter, we do a lot of ski trips with friends. I average 6-7k miles a year, its pretty much all on weekends. I didn't look at the diesel because I'm a road trip machine, but more because BMW wants to unload them more.
The X5 packaging is funny. Noticeably more passenger room for sure than my RDX. A little more cargo room, but not as much as the exterior footprint would lead one to believe. The nice thing is BMW offers it without the 3rd row(unlike the MDX), so you get a nice-sized storage bin under the floor. I see that a XC70 has more cargo volume, but you never know how much of that is actually usable until you look in person. I guess that's the fun of shopping.
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
I have no argument with your OTD approach. What I do recommend is that when and if it is used, the buyer/client should know or at least be aware of what fees, taxes, ACV (actual cash value) of the trade,etc., are being used to arrive at that out-the-door price. As a former sales manager and sales associate in new car dealerships, it would have been great if OTD pricing was desired by every customer. That way, trades, profits and fees are all grouped together and each can be adjusted, as needed, to arrive at the best OTD pricing. But the customer will never know what he is really being allowed for his trade. That is why most car buyers either refuse or chose not to use the OTD pricing approach.
Yes, ACV is shown on the buyers order or bill of sale. So if a customer uses the OTD approach, gets his best deal, and when he signs the buyers order, he sees an ACV for his vehicle that is lower than he thinks it should be, the whole deal could blow up in the finance office. That is why OTD does not always work.
I shop and buy cars using OTD because I fully understand all of its components. But not all people are familiar or trust that approach. They want to know the ACV of their trade first; then the amount over invoice they are paying; then what additional fees are involved. Believe me when I tell you that all dealerships would love to do OTD negotiating because it is simpler, takes less time negotiating, and is less complicated!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
That's a good point, I forgot when I bought my 2004 X3 I was surprised that it had more cargo space than the much larger X5. I read some articles at that time and the articles pretty well said, unless you need an SUV for some reason, such as off-roading, you may as well get a station wagon. Wagons actually have more cargo space than comparable SUVs.
Wagons like the XC70 may actually have more useable storage space, for example it might be longer to actually fit your skis better.
Like you said, half the fun is looking.
Getting a large vehicle like an X5 does not appeal to me. I don't like manoevering such a large vehicle, and parking is a lot more difficult. Some spaces are so narrow and I see large SUVs going over the lines. I have driven Sierras and I feel like I am a truck driver, not much feel of the road.
I know some people love such vehicles and to each their own, I am just stating my personal opinion. If you go skiing with a group of people....which sounds like fun......then I can see why you need something with a fair amount of room. When we go on our tennis weekend to Ellicottville NY, there are usually about 20 to 26 people, and it is really a ski town in the winter, we go in separate cars, anywhere from 1 to 4 in a car. It is a 100 mile trip....Personally, I prefer doing it that way for some trips, and sometimes it is nice to go as a group. If we go in separate cars we have more flexability once we are there.
Keep us posted on what you find out, and have fun looking.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
First the prime Florida real estate and now our milk? Oh the humanity!
http://marcos.kirsch.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/south-park-blame-canada.j- - pg
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I fear for my future as a driver as cars get more and more complicated.
Last night I was trying to order something from eBay (at the boss's request) and found out the seller only took something called "Paypal". Now why I couldn't just use my credit card has me scratching my head but I go ahead and try to sign up. It took me over an hour to create an account including calls to customer service. I could almost hear the girl's eyes rolling as I told her several times that I didn't know how to do the computer things she was suggesting. I ended hanging up in frustration.
So time later I must have pressed the right button by accident and everything worked, I still don't know why. I could have driven 100 miles to a store in the time it took to order a $15 item online. :sick:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.