It amazes me how many people do not understand the dealer's intention when it comes to the documentation fee. That fee is part of the price of a vehicle not a cost. Like any price, the dealer's intention is to have a high price and a customer's intention is to have a low price. Dealer's use this fee as a ploy to raise the price a customer pays.
All dealers have costs. The electricity a dealer uses is a cost, the salaries it pays to the employees is a cost. However, dealers do not sell vehicles on a cost basis. Dealers sell vehicles on a price basis.
The price the dealer sells a vehicle covers all costs plus profit. Has anyone ever seen a dealer provide a customer its costs? No, all a customer sees is the price. The dealer documentation fee is simply an added element of the vehicle price. That so called "fee" has nothing to do with costs. Customers need not be concerned with a dealer's cost as no dealer will reveal its true costs. The invoice is not a dealer's cost.
The bottom line is a dealer documentation fee is nothing but an addition to the price of the vehicle. A dealer could argue a small fee of about $50 is reasonable as many dealers actually do provide a small benefit to the customer by handling the registration process saving the customer from having to do that themselves.
A charge of several hundred dollars in the form of a documentation fee is unethical and deceptive. The use of the word fee is intended to fool a customer into believing the amount is a cost.
Anyone encountering a dealer documentation fee should, as many seasoned people on this site have stated, simply reduce the price offered by the amount of the fee. At a dealer which charges a documentation fee this will likley need to be done in all cases, as that dealer will need, for legal purposes, to show the "fee" on the bill of sale. However, the agreed upon price should be reduced by the amount of the fee.
That so many people posting on Edmunds seem to blindly accept these fees is alarming.
The Vancouver airport does that too - it's like $20 per person. Didn't know that til we got in line.
Re: carry-on bag fees - there was an airline that tried that, and I swore that if we ever HAD to fly them, I would simply wear every article of clothing onto the plane. And I'd stuff my toiletries in pockets or on a pouch attached to my belt.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
That so many people posting on Edmunds seem to blindly accept these fees is alarming.
I would bet 95% of the population think they pay the doc fee because they are getting something for their $700, and they think it is necessary for getting their car on the road.
It has to come from somewhere though, so I assume places that have a low fee just charge more for the car.
. And I'd stuff my toiletries in pockets or on a pouch attached to my belt.
There's a million dollar idea. Invent a toiletry belt, it can be clear plastic and you just wear it to the airport. You have to take off your belt any way so you just take it off and get it scanned, then put it back on again.
MSRP went from $22752 for a 2012 to $27415 for a 2013 when the increase in price was about $800.
I know, I am replying to myself but I need the numbers. Apparently she transposed the numbers incorrectly, $27415 should be $24715 with destination charge or $770. I said I would pay $23000 for the car itself.
I am getting tired of this, how do you make a $3000 mistake when you are doing a transaction online with all the time in the world?
Frigga fragga....... The hospital calls. Seems a blood test they ran yesterday shows a low IGG reading. This is something to do with immune response. I have to go in for a four hour infusion and we need to find a day to do it. My wife ran out of her paid time off now so we'll try to do it on the weekend.
We have appointments on Tuesday but the schedule is too tight to work in the infusion.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Knowing you are a rich Canadian, and used to higher prices anyway, she probably just took a stab at giving you a good screwing.
If you end up buying from her you better stay on your toes, as it sounds like passing out a good screwing at every turn is just business as usual to them.
Do you happen to have a contact (a higher up) at the Brahman Auto Group in West Palm Beach? I have a buddy who bought a used Audi A4 3.2 (we know what mr. Craig is going to say) from a VW dealer down there (he says they are the biggest in the world) in January. His A4 threw a rod (yes, just like your XG350 jmonroe). The Car Fax said the car was covered under factory warranty until 8/2013 or 50K miles (sold originally by Brahman). Well he found out on Monday that the Car Fax was wrong and his warranty expired 7/31/2012 (13 days ago). Long story short is that he's got a car with 39,000 miles on it that needs a new engine (current one has a hole in the block). He was quoted by Brahmann $21,000 ($16k Motor/$5K Labor). Now Brahman being in the area that it is in called up and expected to get his AMEX card and that was that. He's called Audi and they said they are sorry but the factory warranty is up, but they will give him a $1500 (fifteen hundred) credit. He's obviously not going to pay for a new engine out of his own pocket.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Reduce the price by $250?! Making a $3K mistake?! Charge an extra fee to special order?! You're dealing with an idiot and a dealership that would screw you over in a flat minute. There are too many dealers who have nice cars to put up with the treatment that you are receiving.
$21K for a new engine?! Time to dump that vehicle and buy another model. Just wondering---since Car Fax made the error on coverage, would he have any recourse with them?
I thought the same thing about Carfax, but I am pretty sure that carfax does not show the official in-service date (when the warranty starts). They do show when the car was registered, but I forget how they word it. Effectively though it is the date that the paperwork is official, not when it rolls over the curb, in effect. As the Audi guy just found out, close but not exact!
man, that is harsh though. And you would think a premium maker would be aghast at having an engine grenade at 39K.
but, a risk with a used car, you don't necessarily know if it was maintained. Could be one of those lease people that never bothered to change the oil once?
Welcome to Florida. Land of "we charge because we can". It is tiresome, but quite simple - ignore the word "fee", add the value to your price and then you know the real price.
Example: Dealer "price": $23000, Dealer "fee": $699. Real price: $23699. It's a convention, game if you will, so they can advertise lower "price".
No point of getting angry, worked up, or fighting. If they want to, let them break it into $1 "price" and $23698 "fee".
What counts is what you pay to them plus what you have to pay to the state and the county. How it's broken down, doesn't matter.
Speak for yourself. I’m willing to spend more money for a nonstop flight. Pittsburgh used to be a hub for US Airways until the county politicians gouged them with gate fees. So, now if you fly US Airways out of Pittsburgh you almost always have to connect in Charlotte if you're going south. I’ve paid $80 more per ticket one way with another airline so I’d have a nonstop flight when I could do that. Some people have driven to Cleveland to get a nonstop flight because it is cheaper. Me, I’ll pay the $80 each way per ticket. It bugs the hell out of me but I’ve done it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
dealing with an idiot and a dealership that would screw you over in a flat minute.
I said to my wife, I will go in with one reasonable but low offer....if they take it, good, if not we move on.
Edmunds True Value price was $23,195 meaning that would be a fair and decent price to pay. My email to the dealer was kind of curt, it was my final offer is $23000. She said she fought to get me that price and decided not to come back higher and start haggling....which was smart because that would have been the end.
She'll fax the offer to buy, and if it looks like it is in order, we have bought another car....I am going to get my gold star this year for sure.
Unfortunately, I do not. Brahman (large dealer network owned by Norman Brahman in Miami) is in West Palm Beach, 50 miles north of me. Brahman, to the best of my knowledge, has no dealerships in Broward County. Their biggest complex is on Biscayne Blvd. in Miami (Huyandi, Cadillac, Rolls/Bentley, etc.). In West Palm, they have BMW, Bentley/Rolls.
Auto Nation is the largest dealership organization in South Florida, not Brahman. I have never done any business with them due to their lack of dealerships in Broward County.
For an engine to blow at 37,000 or so miles usually means it was either abused or not well maintained. Very rare for something like that to happen on a German engineered car, but not impossible.
My opinion? Get rid of the car - junk it if necessary - not worth spending that kind of money on a new engine. Just chalk it up to "buyer beware"! Sorry I can't help!
I suspect the "closing" will provide additional unpleasant surprises- and I doubt that the service department is anything to write home about either. In my experience I've found that if the sales side is incompetent/slimy/dishonest then the service and parts departments will be exponentially worse(See: Oxmoor Mazda, Louisville, KY).
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
TL, G37, and S60 did okay, but others really struggled. In a press release MB blamed the test, which is unfortunate and doesn't bode well for them making improvements.
It alleviates any misunderstandings and/or surprises in the deal.
It really doesn't take much time to figure OTD. All one has to do is to find their tax rate to add to their offer.
Absolutely!
Mike mentioned earlier that it's important to have a buildup sheet that lists everything you're aware of that goes into the bottom line, and I agree. As you pointed out, all that varies much is the local sales tax rate, plus which it's necessary (at least in AZ) to find out what the license plate will cost. Everything else is very predictable, and I always sell my old car myself -- no trade-in.
My point was that whether it's called ADM, doc fee or is a legitimate couple of percent above the actual cost of the car, it all falls into the dealer markup. They can take the deal or not. He who cares least. . .
I've made two deals like this over the past 20 years in less than 20 minutes. One was on a Miata and the other was on a Lincoln LS. I thought they were fair deals and so did the dealer, and I didn't have to spent 3 to 4 hours, well, let's just say wasting each other's time. I used a much more colourful phrase the first time, but thought better of it.
I suspect the "closing" will provide additional unpleasant surprises- a
They fax the paperwork tomorrow and I put down $1000 as a deposit on VISA. I think they were testing to see if I was an idiot, or else they are pretty incompetent. The thing is, they are the closest dealer, and they did sell the car for a little better price than I expected, and $200 below the Edmunds price.
They are also the closest dealer. Hopefully, I won't need to use their service department too often. I guess all is fair in love and war!
For an engine to blow at 37,000 or so miles usually means it was either abused or not well maintained.
Good post. There are two sides to the story and I think we don't know the whole story. You don't hear about engines going at 37K, unless it is after a JMonroe oil change.
*driver, the main issue here is, "...if YOU are satisfied with the price and the dealership, then that's all that really matters!"
Personally, I would not purchase a car from a dealership I am unfamiliar with merely by coctact over the internet or over the phone. I realize you are ordering a car that is not normally a standard inventory vehicle for most dealerships, so you are kind of caught between a rock and a hard place because of the car you want. Just make sure your price is an out the door price, so that when you pick up the car, there are no surprises like fees or other add-ins that you did not expect.
TL, G37, and S60 did okay, but others really struggled. In a press release MB blamed the test, which is unfortunate and doesn't bode well for them making improvements.
From what I have observed over the years is that if MB doesn't do well, it must have been a flawed test. They even bought into a flawed company (Chrysler) so how could they have been expected to make it better?
To a certain extent BMW is like this too but not as bad. The Germans have always felt they do things better than anyone else. They started two world wars that they couldn't finish. So how smart can they be?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Thanks for the reply. The car wasn't abused by my friend. He's an enthusiast & is anal about scheduled maintenance. What the previous owner did is up for grabs though.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
there are no surprises like fees or other add-ins that you did not expect.
I appreciate your remarks. We did go to this dealership in February and the salesman was very honest and businesslike. Answered all questions and wrote out all the pricing, with a discount and all fees added in.
He has left and I have a newbie salesperson, and I get the impression thay are training her to get the most you can from the customer, and not to give in.
I am guessing, but I think they were getting embarassed when they could see they weren't dealing with a complete idiot, and that I knew something about buying cars.
Today, they will fax me the purchase forms, and it better be right, with no additional items added in.
There are only 2 dealers that are fairly close and about 6 within 75 miles, this one is the closest. Unfortunately, I don't trust any of them that much. It's too bad it has to be that way. Maybe if they came up with a good price right away I wouldn't be satisfied. I tend to think they could have gotten a little more for the car if they hadn't aggravated me from the start.
Maybe they think I am desparate for a car and I would just pay. Fortunately I am not. I looked at long term rentals and that could be an option. Also, if they don't want to sell at a fair price I'd consider a Honda. That helps when you have options.
OK, if I am allowed to say, I am buying from Bert Smith VW in St Petersburg. They also have a Porshe, BMW, and Suburu dealership.
To be fair, I have checked customer comments about other dealers in the area and though none of them are perfect, this one probably comes out about the best.
I think they gave it a try to see if I was a moron, maybe in Florida they assume a lot of customers have lost their marbles anyway, might as well find out. I am going to read the actual bill of sale carefully, no extras....I am not going to play around. If they try anything I will tell them I want a $100 reduction for every trick they play.
No, actually at that point I would move on.
Right now, I think it is a fair price, a little better than I expected (by $200), but we'll know by late this afternoon what the contract says. BMW lost an easy sale to me 2 months ago when they wouldn't give me $1500 more for a trade-in that was worth $4000 more, so I will walk if they play games.
Berth Smith is probably worst (or second worst, they are fighting for that position with Kuhn) place to buy VW (or any other brand for that matter Tampa Bay. The special order fee nonsense is exactly what my friend has heard when he was shopping for Golf a few years ago. They were also quite obnoxious to him (as for "what are you waiting for, stop waisting our time and order already or get out" in almost literal). This friend of mine, I couldn't completely blame them, because he can be really tedious to deal with, but I was there myself once when I was shopping for WRX in 2002/2003 and the vibes were not great (and inventory even worse). Now it is you - the patters is clear to me. Avoid, avoid, avoid....
Their print ads and special offers are full of baloney. A few months ago, a friend got a "special" offer for BMW (in email). Basically same lease payment (and general terms) as nationally advertised offer, but the car itself had less equipment - in other words, the offer was marked up, not discounted from national offer (which as you may know is usually based on MSRP).
If you want to be treated right (with respect), go to Reeves or Lockey. Can't guarantee "lowest price", but can guarantee straight deal and no bad taste in the mouth, especially Reeves. There is also one dealer in the area (Brandon VW), but I can't speak of those guys, they are pretty new (a few years since opening). One knock against them they are part of Courtesy chain, which I personally never cared for (but others had decent experience, so this could be individual).
Mike....airlines have shot themselves in the foot. They have no one to blame but themselves for their financial woes. I'm a Million Miler with Delta and a 1K with United. I'm probably their target customer....business traveller who values convenience and service over the cheapest price.
I used to travel at least 50K miles/year on both Delta and United. Being in Cincinnati, I threw all my business to Delta, meaning travelling 100K miles/yr with them.
I travel even more now, but rarely rack up more than 10K-20K miles/year on Delta, for no other reason than their steep drop in service and convenience....plus their idiotic fees. I don't fly United at all any more for the same reasons.
I travel the upstart airlines whenever possible...even to the point I'll drive to airports further away to stay away from Delta or United. Both are courting one time fliers these days....instead of making it better/easier for their most loyal and best customers.
You think it's bad here, you should try Europe. The only difference is their Southwest counterparts (Ryanair, and some others) are ones to charge you fee for everything: - luggage - credit card transaction - ticket issuance - airport check-in (I am not kidding) - fuel surcharge, which is also charged here, but there they don't have to include it in advertised fares.
You literally see commercials for 1 currency unit (British Pound, Euro, etc.) flights - then when you buy, you pay something like hundred and even that is not over.
To be fully fair, they do offer lower cost options for most of those fees (like internet check-in, reduced luggage fee if purchased in advance, etc.).
gg - i agree 100%. From 1989 to 2003 I traveled regularly for business. Averaged 40-50K per year, mostly on United. Living in Denver, I could usually fly United non-stop to most of my destinations.
Now, with all the fees and surcharges that are being added by the airlines, I find myself using Southwest on the rare occasions I do fly. No baggage fees, and, here in the West, I can usually get decent air fares and non stops from Denver to LA or Las Vegas.
I guess I'm lucky that Denver has 3 major airlines - Southwest, United and Frontier.
I am very familiar with the Lokey family of dealerships and highly recommend them in the Tampa Bay-St. Petersburg area. Great family, honest, great service, etc. One of my best friends was a general manager for them and he sang their praises for years. A friend of mine purchases all his cars from Lokey dealerships only for the same reason.
"...What the previous owner did is up for grabs..."
That's why I shy away from higher performance used cars in favor of "old man's" cars like Buicks and Mercs. Sure, grandma might go senile and forget to change the oil but usually she wasn't doing time trials at the track as well.
I have to think that a $21,000 motor has to be better built than some Detriot grocery getter so for one to blow at 39k had to be due to either neglect or abuse.....probably both.
When I learned that many who lease don't even do basic maintenance I was shocked.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Checked bag - $30 x 2 = $60.00 ($30 each way) Soda and chips on each of 4 flights - $30.00 total Internet boarding pass - $10.00 x 2 = $20.00. If I had checked on at the ticket counter-twice as much!
It's totally out of hand. Now, my next trip out to see the grand kids will be by AmTrak - compartment + all meals and gratuities $800.00.
Sorry Mike, but that's a short sighted way to think. Forget the fact that you pay less with the airline ($565 vs $800 on train.)
You are saying that in order to "save" $90 (which you're not saving b/c train is more,) you're willing to give up 2 days with your family?
Even if train and airplane ticket + fees were the same cost, I would gladly pay $90 to spend two extra days with my family.
YES!!! I love taking the train. The train gives me the comfort, service, vistas, etc., you can't get on a plane. Every time I travel on a plane, I get the flu or a cold. With the train, I am not crowded in like a sardine and I am not nickel and dimed to death. I don't have to arrive 3 hours before the flight, fight for a seat, go through a line to be searched, and then sit and wait two hours and hope your flight is on time.
No more flying for me unless I need to get somewhere ASAP! I am retired and have all the time I need to travel in style! It is my choice!
No more flying for me unless I need to get somewhere ASAP! I am retired and have all the time I need to travel in style! It is my choice!
Fair enough. I rather see my famly for 2 extra days, but obviously not everybody will think that way.
I do want to make that train ride once. It sounds cool. I did a few overnight train trips when I was a kid. And did a bunch when I lived in Europe in the mid 90's. They were fun.
Comments
All dealers have costs. The electricity a dealer uses is a cost, the salaries it pays to the employees is a cost. However, dealers do not sell vehicles on a cost basis. Dealers sell vehicles on a price basis.
The price the dealer sells a vehicle covers all costs plus profit. Has anyone ever seen a dealer provide a customer its costs? No, all a customer sees is the price. The dealer documentation fee is simply an added element of the vehicle price. That so called "fee" has nothing to do with costs. Customers need not be concerned with a dealer's cost as no dealer will reveal its true costs. The invoice is not a dealer's cost.
The bottom line is a dealer documentation fee is nothing but an addition to the price of the vehicle. A dealer could argue a small fee of about $50 is reasonable as many dealers actually do provide a small benefit to the customer by handling the registration process saving the customer from having to do that themselves.
A charge of several hundred dollars in the form of a documentation fee is unethical and deceptive. The use of the word fee is intended to fool a customer into believing the amount is a cost.
Anyone encountering a dealer documentation fee should, as many seasoned people on this site have stated, simply reduce the price offered by the amount of the fee. At a dealer which charges a documentation fee this will likley need to be done in all cases, as that dealer will need, for legal purposes, to show the "fee" on the bill of sale. However, the agreed upon price should be reduced by the amount of the fee.
That so many people posting on Edmunds seem to blindly accept these fees is alarming.
Re: carry-on bag fees - there was an airline that tried that, and I swore that if we ever HAD to fly them, I would simply wear every article of clothing onto the plane. And I'd stuff my toiletries in pockets or on a pouch attached to my belt.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I would bet 95% of the population think they pay the doc fee because they are getting something for their $700, and they think it is necessary for getting their car on the road.
It has to come from somewhere though, so I assume places that have a low fee just charge more for the car.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
There's a million dollar idea. Invent a toiletry belt, it can be clear plastic and you just wear it to the airport. You have to take off your belt any way so you just take it off and get it scanned, then put it back on again.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I know, I am replying to myself but I need the numbers. Apparently she transposed the numbers incorrectly, $27415 should be $24715 with destination charge or $770. I said I would pay $23000 for the car itself.
I am getting tired of this, how do you make a $3000 mistake when you are doing a transaction online with all the time in the world?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We have appointments on Tuesday but the schedule is too tight to work in the infusion.
If you end up buying from her you better stay on your toes, as it sounds like passing out a good screwing at every turn is just business as usual to them.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
LOL! I'm definitely one of those.
Richard
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Richard
Richard
At least I stay with you all day, and the results are much prettier than the plumber's. :P
Richard
man, that is harsh though. And you would think a premium maker would be aghast at having an engine grenade at 39K.
but, a risk with a used car, you don't necessarily know if it was maintained. Could be one of those lease people that never bothered to change the oil once?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Example: Dealer "price": $23000, Dealer "fee": $699. Real price: $23699. It's a convention, game if you will, so they can advertise lower "price".
No point of getting angry, worked up, or fighting. If they want to, let them break it into $1 "price" and $23698 "fee".
What counts is what you pay to them plus what you have to pay to the state and the county. How it's broken down, doesn't matter.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Speak for yourself. I’m willing to spend more money for a nonstop flight. Pittsburgh used to be a hub for US Airways until the county politicians gouged them with gate fees. So, now if you fly US Airways out of Pittsburgh you almost always have to connect in Charlotte if you're going south. I’ve paid $80 more per ticket one way with another airline so I’d have a nonstop flight when I could do that. Some people have driven to Cleveland to get a nonstop flight because it is cheaper. Me, I’ll pay the $80 each way per ticket. It bugs the hell out of me but I’ve done it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I said to my wife, I will go in with one reasonable but low offer....if they take it, good, if not we move on.
Edmunds True Value price was $23,195 meaning that would be a fair and decent price to pay. My email to the dealer was kind of curt, it was my final offer is $23000. She said she fought to get me that price and decided not to come back higher and start haggling....which was smart because that would have been the end.
She'll fax the offer to buy, and if it looks like it is in order, we have bought another car....I am going to get my gold star this year for sure.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Unfortunately, I do not. Brahman (large dealer network owned by Norman Brahman in Miami) is in West Palm Beach, 50 miles north of me. Brahman, to the best of my knowledge, has no dealerships in Broward County. Their biggest complex is on Biscayne Blvd. in Miami (Huyandi, Cadillac, Rolls/Bentley, etc.). In West Palm, they have BMW, Bentley/Rolls.
Auto Nation is the largest dealership organization in South Florida, not Brahman. I have never done any business with them due to their lack of dealerships in Broward County.
For an engine to blow at 37,000 or so miles usually means it was either abused or not well maintained. Very rare for something like that to happen on a German engineered car, but not impossible.
My opinion? Get rid of the car - junk it if necessary - not worth spending that kind of money on a new engine. Just chalk it up to "buyer beware"! Sorry I can't help!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Wow -- that is excellent! Who knew such things were still possible?
That's the kind of service that builds loyalty in a big way. I maintain that the airlines, while poor, are still better at it than car dealerships.
I hope that goes as fast as it can for you. Best of luck with all of this.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
IIHS Test
TL, G37, and S60 did okay, but others really struggled. In a press release MB blamed the test, which is unfortunate and doesn't bode well for them making improvements.
It really doesn't take much time to figure OTD. All one has to do is to find their tax rate to add to their offer.
Absolutely!
Mike mentioned earlier that it's important to have a buildup sheet that lists everything you're aware of that goes into the bottom line, and I agree. As you pointed out, all that varies much is the local sales tax rate, plus which it's necessary (at least in AZ) to find out what the license plate will cost. Everything else is very predictable, and I always sell my old car myself -- no trade-in.
My point was that whether it's called ADM, doc fee or is a legitimate couple of percent above the actual cost of the car, it all falls into the dealer markup. They can take the deal or not. He who cares least. . .
I've made two deals like this over the past 20 years in less than 20 minutes. One was on a Miata and the other was on a Lincoln LS. I thought they were fair deals and so did the dealer, and I didn't have to spent 3 to 4 hours, well, let's just say wasting each other's time. I used a much more colourful phrase the first time, but thought better of it.
I absolutely agree, but it gets worse.
They can all vote.
They fax the paperwork tomorrow and I put down $1000 as a deposit on VISA. I think they were testing to see if I was an idiot, or else they are pretty incompetent. The thing is, they are the closest dealer, and they did sell the car for a little better price than I expected, and $200 below the Edmunds price.
They are also the closest dealer. Hopefully, I won't need to use their service department too often. I guess all is fair in love and war!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Hey, enjoy the convertible while you are out! Have a great day.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Good post. There are two sides to the story and I think we don't know the whole story. You don't hear about engines going at 37K, unless it is after a JMonroe oil change.
Just joking JM........
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
*driver, the main issue here is, "...if YOU are satisfied with the price and the dealership, then that's all that really matters!"
Personally, I would not purchase a car from a dealership I am unfamiliar with merely by coctact over the internet or over the phone. I realize you are ordering a car that is not normally a standard inventory vehicle for most dealerships, so you are kind of caught between a rock and a hard place because of the car you want. Just make sure your price is an out the door price, so that when you pick up the car, there are no surprises like fees or other add-ins that you did not expect.
Good luck with the car!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
From what I have observed over the years is that if MB doesn't do well, it must have been a flawed test. They even bought into a flawed company (Chrysler) so how could they have been expected to make it better?
To a certain extent BMW is like this too but not as bad. The Germans have always felt they do things better than anyone else. They started two world wars that they couldn't finish. So how smart can they be?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I appreciate your remarks. We did go to this dealership in February and the salesman was very honest and businesslike. Answered all questions and wrote out all the pricing, with a discount and all fees added in.
He has left and I have a newbie salesperson, and I get the impression thay are training her to get the most you can from the customer, and not to give in.
I am guessing, but I think they were getting embarassed when they could see they weren't dealing with a complete idiot, and that I knew something about buying cars.
Today, they will fax me the purchase forms, and it better be right, with no additional items added in.
There are only 2 dealers that are fairly close and about 6 within 75 miles, this one is the closest. Unfortunately, I don't trust any of them that much.
It's too bad it has to be that way. Maybe if they came up with a good price right away I wouldn't be satisfied. I tend to think they could have gotten a little more for the car if they hadn't aggravated me from the start.
Maybe they think I am desparate for a car and I would just pay. Fortunately I am not. I looked at long term rentals and that could be an option. Also, if they don't want to sell at a fair price I'd consider a Honda.
That helps when you have options.
But, I'll look at that contract very carefully.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Well, he waxes his cars with power pole polish, maybe he changes his oil with maple syrup. :confuse:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
OK, if I am allowed to say, I am buying from Bert Smith VW in St Petersburg. They also have a Porshe, BMW, and Suburu dealership.
To be fair, I have checked customer comments about other dealers in the area and though none of them are perfect, this one probably comes out about the best.
I think they gave it a try to see if I was a moron, maybe in Florida they assume a lot of customers have lost their marbles anyway, might as well find out. I am going to read the actual bill of sale carefully, no extras....I am not going to play around. If they try anything I will tell them I want a $100 reduction for every trick they play.
No, actually at that point I would move on.
Right now, I think it is a fair price, a little better than I expected (by $200), but we'll know by late this afternoon what the contract says. BMW lost an easy sale to me 2 months ago when they wouldn't give me $1500 more for a trade-in that was worth $4000 more, so I will walk if they play games.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Their print ads and special offers are full of baloney. A few months ago, a friend got a "special" offer for BMW (in email). Basically same lease payment (and general terms) as nationally advertised offer, but the car itself had less equipment - in other words, the offer was marked up, not discounted from national offer (which as you may know is usually based on MSRP).
If you want to be treated right (with respect), go to Reeves or Lockey. Can't guarantee "lowest price", but can guarantee straight deal and no bad taste in the mouth, especially Reeves. There is also one dealer in the area (Brandon VW), but I can't speak of those guys, they are pretty new (a few years since opening). One knock against them they are part of Courtesy chain, which I personally never cared for (but others had decent experience, so this could be individual).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I used to travel at least 50K miles/year on both Delta and United. Being in Cincinnati, I threw all my business to Delta, meaning travelling 100K miles/yr with them.
I travel even more now, but rarely rack up more than 10K-20K miles/year on Delta, for no other reason than their steep drop in service and convenience....plus their idiotic fees. I don't fly United at all any more for the same reasons.
I travel the upstart airlines whenever possible...even to the point I'll drive to airports further away to stay away from Delta or United. Both are courting one time fliers these days....instead of making it better/easier for their most loyal and best customers.
- luggage
- credit card transaction
- ticket issuance
- airport check-in (I am not kidding)
- fuel surcharge, which is also charged here, but there they don't have to include it in advertised fares.
You literally see commercials for 1 currency unit (British Pound, Euro, etc.) flights - then when you buy, you pay something like hundred and even that is not over.
To be fully fair, they do offer lower cost options for most of those fees (like internet check-in, reduced luggage fee if purchased in advance, etc.).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Now, with all the fees and surcharges that are being added by the airlines, I find myself using Southwest on the rare occasions I do fly. No baggage fees, and, here in the West, I can usually get decent air fares and non stops from Denver to LA or Las Vegas.
I guess I'm lucky that Denver has 3 major airlines - Southwest, United and Frontier.
I am very familiar with the Lokey family of dealerships and highly recommend them in the Tampa Bay-St. Petersburg area. Great family, honest, great service, etc. One of my best friends was a general manager for them and he sang their praises for years. A friend of mine purchases all his cars from Lokey dealerships only for the same reason.
I agree totally with yor comments, *dino
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
That's why I shy away from higher performance used cars in favor of "old man's" cars like Buicks and Mercs. Sure, grandma might go senile and forget to change the oil but usually she wasn't doing time trials at the track as well.
I have to think that a $21,000 motor has to be better built than some Detriot grocery getter so for one to blow at 39k had to be due to either neglect or abuse.....probably both.
When I learned that many who lease don't even do basic maintenance I was shocked.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Soda and chips on each of 4 flights - $30.00 total
Internet boarding pass - $10.00 x 2 = $20.00. If I had checked on at the ticket counter-twice as much!
It's totally out of hand. Now, my next trip out to see the grand kids will be by AmTrak - compartment + all meals and gratuities $800.00.
Sorry Mike, but that's a short sighted way to think. Forget the fact that you pay less with the airline ($565 vs $800 on train.)
You are saying that in order to "save" $90 (which you're not saving b/c train is more,) you're willing to give up 2 days with your family?
Even if train and airplane ticket + fees were the same cost, I would gladly pay $90 to spend two extra days with my family.
I was shocked to hear some people with BMWs were only being instructed (by the car) to after close to 15K miles.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I did it as accurately as I could. They asked about "other dealers".
When I said they were nearby, but unreasonable on my trade they
asked specifics and I gave it to them. Same offer at Magic City Ford
was scooped up and custom ordered, delivered with style and panache'.
See, it wasn't my trade or my offer. It was the local greedy dealer.
Last time I talked about them on here, Dino said I was too harsh.
This time I answered what JDP asked, only this time it's National.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
YES!!! I love taking the train. The train gives me the comfort, service, vistas, etc., you can't get on a plane. Every time I travel on a plane, I get the flu or a cold. With the train, I am not crowded in like a sardine and I am not nickel and dimed to death. I don't have to arrive 3 hours before the flight, fight for a seat, go through a line to be searched, and then sit and wait two hours and hope your flight is on time.
No more flying for me unless I need to get somewhere ASAP! I am retired and have all the time I need to travel in style! It is my choice!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Fair enough. I rather see my famly for 2 extra days, but obviously not everybody will think that way.
I do want to make that train ride once. It sounds cool. I did a few overnight train trips when I was a kid. And did a bunch when I lived in Europe in the mid 90's. They were fun.