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"...the death of Peter the Great and his lesser known brother Jim the Average all caused by global warming."
Snake, I really enjoy it when your wry sense of humor gets the best of you.
"Lesser known brother Jim The Average", that got me laughing out loud for at least 2 minutes. Thanks Snake, I needed that more than you'll ever know!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
"It does however drive me bonkers when I talk to someone who drives a car that specifically requires PUG & they say: "I just use regular" or "I put mid-grade in it."
You got that right, NYC! Nothing will destroy a direct injection V8, V6, Inline 6 with or without turbos more than a low grade regular gasoline product.
My service manager told me that even using mid-grade will have the same effect. He said it is not infrequent to see a 2 year old E350 sedan go into the shop and find all 6 injectors malfunctioning because the owner refused to pit in premium unleaded gasoline. And when he tells the owner he has to pay for the repairs to the engine and injectors because the fuel they found in the fuel system was a low grade 87 octane gasoline, they complain that the warranty should cover the repairs. But Mercedes will not pay because he voided the warranty on the engine and fuel delivery system by putting inferior fuel into his car for 2 years.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
@abacomike
I'm sure that guy with the bad injectors is the 1st one to bad mouth Mercedes to his friends. "It's only 2 years old and needed $X of engine work & Mercedes wants me to pay for it. They say it isn't covered under warranty because I used regular gas. Spend $60K on a car and they don't stand behind it."
I know I'm super neurotic about this, but that's one of my biggest fears of buying that "perfect, off lease, CPO luxury car" or "ex-service loaner car." You know the person who puts $3K "down" on his "bimmer" so his payment can be $299 per month is pumping RUG into it. Same with the service loaners. I ALWAYS put PUG back into the loaner (unless it is a diesel obviously), but I can almost guarantee most others fill their loaner with RUG.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Two of the three cars in my fleet require PUG. For the wife's CX-7, it gets Shell V-Power 91 unless extreme circumstances dictate otherwise. In three years, I think less than a half-dozen tanks of gas have not been Shell.
The daughter's late 2010 MINI also took premium, though she wasn't as concerned with where she got it from. 91 octane is 91 octane is how she saw it.
Now, with the new Countryman S being delivered tomorrow, I may talk to her about running tier 1 fuel in it, as it has a turbo.
My Elantra GT gets 85 octane (RUG here in Colorado) - no problems.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
"...but I can almost guarantee most others fill their loaner with RUG."
You are right again NYC! The attitude is easy to see right through people like that. I had a C Class loaner 18 months ago when one of my injectors was leaking and they couldn't figure out which one so they just replaced them all. They had my car a week and since the loaner was a C300, it needed premium. The loaners down here on Florida for Mercedes are all rentals that Mercedes pays the rental company for - but they are all either C Class or GL 350 SUV's. Enterprise has all the Mercedes dealers down here. All they request is that you replace the gas you use. But I always replaced the gas I used with premium - why put regular into a car that requires premium.
But I agree that most people put regular in their loaners - they just don 't care.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
well, there is a difference between recommended (for better performance?) and required. If it isn't required, it should not matter if you are happy with how it runs and the MPG. I go back and forth with the RDX and it does not seem to care.
my TL is up to about 174K, runs like new (knocking wood), and has always been run on mid grade. Wasn't happy with regular when it was new, so my sister tried mid, it ran fine, so she just stuck with that.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Glad you like it, it's sort of needed to survive in my family.
It can get you in trouble at times.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't understand why if you pay $60K on a car you have to skimp a few bucks a fill up.
I feel the same way, when someone has a short term lease who knows what things they did like that that can kill a vehicle. I once knew someone who would only keep a car for a year or so before getting a new one and he never would change the oil. Why did he care? Any damage would be the next owners issues.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Good point. You really do feel it when you're self-employed.
Richard
Simple facts. Ninety seven percent of scientific experts concur that global warming is occuring and that humans play a significant role in that warming. Most legitimate scientific societies, including those from the US, England, and Canada concur that global warming is real and that humans play a significant role in that warming.
It does not take much inquiry for a rational person to conclude fossel fuels are not condusive to a productive Earth. All that is needed is for a person to breath automobile exhaust. I have yet to find one person who finds that appealing.
Regardless of one's opinion on global warming, there does not seem to be much downside to researching and implementing alternatives to fossil fuels. For many of us an increase in cost is not a reason for our Government not to act to improve the environment.
Thankfully, some automobile OEMs are taking action. Of course much of that action is a reaction to President Obama's plan to improve MPG significantly over the next decade. Nice to see our Government in action.
Willful ignorance of facts and blissful statements based purely on opinion are not virtues.
15 MOST BORING CARS
Here is the link to the most boring cars that I had mentioned below.
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/15-most-boring-cars-money-can-buy?icid=autos_5435
"Simple facts. Ninety seven percent of scientific experts concur that global warming is occuring and that humans play a significant role in that warming."
Your position on Global Warming was, at the very least, well stated. There remains some great disagreement on the affect of Global Warming on the earth and I, for one, remain on the fence regarding this issue.
There is no doubt that the use of fossil fuels and the effects of by products of combustion cannot be helpful to living things or the atmosphere. The disagreement lies in the conflicting evidence, all scientific, regarding the extent to which the byproducts of combustion of fossil fuels affects global temperatures.
The position you take is just one side of the argument. The other side deals with a global history of ice ages and extreme high temperature periods.
I see no major problem in the world governments taking steps to curb the "possible" effects of fossil fuel combustion on the earth's climate by scaling back and eventually discontinuing fossil fuel use and replacing fossil fuels with solar, wind, tidal, hydrogen fuel cells and nuclear energy. However, this process must be done cautiously and managed artfully so as to ensure sufficient energy for centuries to come.
Blaming the world's ills on Global Warming is not backed up by scientific evidence - but taking steps to curb possible global warming can and will prove to be a form of proactive approaches just in case we are in the midst of artificial warming rather than natural global warming.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
However it's ("Ninety seven percent of scientific experts concur that global warming is occuring and that humans play a significant role in that warming.") based on tenuous interpretations of parts of data to make the results turn out to fit the argument. When the folks who believe in global warming have to always keep stating that these are facts and are irrefutable, that doesn't work scientifically.
Earlier someone said all folks who don't believe man is causing global warming should be put in jail. There have been attempts to keep people who don't accept global warming from publishing or having any articles written about their view in certain newspapers. That's hardly the tactic of a group with a correct and winning assumption. Sounds more appropriate of a dictatorship.
Gore made several nasty statements recently about the people and scientists who don't accept their global warming theory with derogatory terms--I can't find a quote online so I won't try to cite a few of the nasty descriptions that I heard quoted on the radio. When people have to resort to those extremes, their theory doesn't work. It's my opinion, opinion that follow-the-money works here. Gore was upset with losing the presidency to which he felt entitled and the recount just couldn't be twisted enough for him to win that he is getting back at the People somehow in his mind.
I posit that natural events, such as volcanoes, effect more change in the CO2 level than man does. CO2 levels historically have gone up and down. Remember that plants use CO2 and emit O2 as a byproduct.
If the people seriously want to do things to lessen use of fossil fuels here to save more coal and oil for the rest of the world to use, I suggest limiting the size and horsepower of all auto engines to 180 hp and 2500 pounds for the vehicle. Since this is an auto-related forum that seems an appropriate belief on my part.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Regardless of where you stand on the global warming issue there is opportunity for passive investors to profit from the phenomenon by investing in Green Bonds or Climate Bonds. What is green bonds you may ask? I had never heard of it until last week on Bloomberg radio.
In short, Investopedia defines green bonds this way:
"A tax-exempt bond which is issued by federally qualified organizations and/or municipalities for the development of brownfield sites. Brownfield sites are areas of land that are under utilized, have abandoned buildings, or are under developed. They often contain low levels of industrial pollution.
Green Bonds are short-hand for Qualified Green Building and Sustainable Design Project Bonds.
Investopedia explains 'Green Bond'
These bonds are created to encourage sustainability and the development of brownfield sites. The tax-exempt status makes purchasing a green bond a more attractive investment when compared to a comparable taxable bond. To qualify for green bond status the development must take the form of any of the following:
1) At least 75% of the building is registered for LEED certification;
2) The development project will receive at least $5 million from the municipality or State; and
3) The building is at least one million square feet in size, or 20 acres in size.
Although Green Bonds were first issued to address the problems of industrial pollution they are now used to finance the ills or the impacts of global warming or Climate Change.
Won't the computer just retard the spark to compensate for lower octane? I can see if the gas was contaminated but lower octane messing up the injectors?
The last car I actually heard ping on low octane gas (when premium was called for) was my son's 93 Deville. I assume soon after that engine computers got smart enough to cope.
My 2008 says premium recommended but will run fine on RUG with slightly reduced power.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Sorry Ken but "consensus" is not same as fact. For you, increase in cost may not be a problem but for some of us it may be literally the difference between life and death.
While I don't accuse you personally, some who share your position are actually rooting for the death of many of us as they consider humans a plague.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
That was my understanding. If lower than required octane fuel is used, the computer with adjust to the fuel and will result in less than optimal fuel economy. Fouling an injector is usually caused by poor quality gasoline - not low octane.
I have been trying to decide whether to complain about this line as offensive to some of us or not. Since you don't know me, let me suggest I have full ability to study science and understand the difference between real science "facts" and to understand the meaning of data. I certainly don't receive my opinions via the latest propaganda release from some political source fax.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No need for a flag. The articulate descriptors from your previous post more than override the opinions of one that has consumed the Al Gore Kool-Aid.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Snake, I also got a good laugh out of ol' "Jim the Average". I needed it too. Thanks.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Imid, you, Mako and oldfarmer make very good points.
Ken...As has been stated, I don't know you and am sure you're a fine person.
What disturbed me most, global warming has been occurring in varying states for as long as earth has existed. The fact that some are so arrogant to think they can affect a force as strong as Mother Nauture, that can slow, or even stop it, to any significant degree, is amazingly naive.
As oldfarmer points out, those who are profiting the most by such a stance has been the big oil companies, There have been fits and starts and a little but of profit for so called green companies. But, trying to artificially raise profits, sending many families into poverty is simply irresponsible.
Whether global warming is or isn't a phenomena that can be controlled (it can't) ignores the motivation of those who profit most from perpetrating the belief that we can control it.
Our ecoboost engines can run on RUG, but are supposed to provide more power using a higher octane. I ran a few tanks of PUG, but didn't really notice much if any difference. I don't usually push into the upper rpm range.
especially ELDERLY HUMANS!
rICHARD
>
Though not personally offended by your last statement, I AM taken a back. Opinions give rise to ideas which give rise to actions. Fortunately, many actions are virtuous by nature.
You may be too young to remember this popular slogan from years ago----It's not nice to fool Mother Nature.
Richard
Richard
Once again proving your unfailing inteligence!!!!!!
Science is about testing and challenging consensus knowledge again and again, and again. Basic laws of physics were being discovered in long process, often full of incorrect, or inaccurate hypotheses. As long as that challenging is allowed and encouraged, it remains being science. Disputes, heated ones, even personal insults have always been part of it, but universities used to want to keep those dissenting from current state of knowledge. Science ends when dissent is treated like a heresy and eradicated from academia with force of government and/or character assassination by media. It is no longer science, it is a state religion.
Human induced global warming hypothesis seems to have achieved consensus with less discussion than Theory of Relativity or any other major theory in science. Twenty years ago they were saying an ice age was coming, today they claim warming is proven without shadow of the doubts. Forgive me, but with such deep social and political implications, at least a little skepticism is warranted. It is also too coincidental that main promoters of the theory are also main beneficiaries, from political groups, to researchers, to media, to industries How nice that same company that used to placate us with shows about how bad incandescent lights are bad for the planet, coincidently has a "better" product to sell, full of mercury of course, but what wouldn't one do for the Planet, right?
What irritates me most is that same people claiming to have all the science behind them, have only simplistic answers to what to do, always adding up to giving them control over our life decisions. Usually close examination of their ideas doesn't stand even simple scrutiny, not to mention the fact that they seem to be exempted from all those demands. Al Gore gets corporate jet, but you my friend, you get a bus, or a car that is twice as expensive than it could be.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
"Won't the computer just retard the spark to compensate for lower octane?"
I would think so! What I am concerned about is the loss of power. Using RUG in my car would void my warranty if I had an injector problem. I spoke to my service manager and he told me Mercedes will not warrant my car if I used regular gas. He said only in an emergency should I put regular in the tank, and to make sure I only put a small amount - a couple of gallons at the most.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Mike, I was exploring the flag feature and realized that I also had a flag for abuse from our old friend. I went back to flag him also and accidentally flagged one of your posts that was replying to him. Hopefully our host can delete it. Sorry for being so stupid.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Precisely; the acolytes of Global Warming use the "it's proven/everyone believes it/you are stupid if you don't agree" response in an attempt to silence anyone who disagrees. And woe to anyone who might challenge them with facts and a logical argument...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
"Mike, I was exploring the flag feature and realized that I also had a flag for abuse from our old friend. I went back to flag him also and accidentally flagged one of your posts that was replying to him. Hopefully our host can delete it. Sorry for being so stupid."
You can delete it yourself. Just click on it and it will delete it - only you can delete your own flags. Try it and see if you can.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Thanks for one of the finest posts I've read on this or any other subject on these boards in quite some time.
Whew ! Thanks it worked.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Interesting take from AutoNation's CEO on Tesla selling direct....
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/autonation-ceo-supports-tesla-s-direct-sales-model-HfP7Y8X~Q8ybSar9nY0IlQ.html
"Interesting take from AutoNation's CEO on Tesla selling direct...."
Mike Jackson is a brilliant man. I know him well from when I was a sales manager in the car business. He is extremely proactive as evidenced by the success of AutoNation.
He was quoted in our Ft.Lauderdale Sun Sentinel a few weeks ago - indicating that he is very interested in adding the Tesla line to AutoNation. At the moment, Tesla wants to sell their own vehicles - however Jackson has already discussed franchising with Tesla. That would be a solution in States like New Jersey where they are not allowed to sell their own cars by direct sales to the public.
Jackson is an interesting man and has great business savvy. Their national headquarters are in Ft. Lauderdale.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Mike - I dug through both the owners manual and the warranty manual for your CLS. In the owners manual, MB does say that using fuel under 91 octane may cause engine damage and nothing about voiding the warranty. In the warranty book, MB only states the emissions systems warranty may be voided if less than 91 octane is used. Unless the injectors are part of the emissions system, it is MHO that the dealer is using a scare tactic.
With that being said, if I owned a $75K car, I wouldn't quibble about spending an extra $3 a week on premium fuel.
"With that being said, if I owned a $75K car, I wouldn't quibble about spending an extra $3 a week on premium fuel."
I am certainly not quibbling about $3 a week more for PUG. I would never consider putting anything but PUG on my car. I was referring to some of the customers at my service dept. using RUG in their C and E class vehicles.
Gasoline is fast approaching the highest cost per gallon in the nation's history. I paid $4.19.9 for gas yesterday. Costco just raised their prices for PUG to $409.9 a gallon from $3.99.9 Thursday.
But I certainly have no desire to put RUG in my car, no matter how expensive it is.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Ha ha flag wars! It's like being on Craigslist. I love it! Give me some flags too, I never even look at my profile. Edmunds must be trying attract kindergardeners.
BTW, you're not stupid.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
@oldfarmer50
Brought the wife's Escape in for service today. The dealer had about a dozen new and used GT convertibles lined up out front. My favorite, of course, was a white/black 2014 California Special, probably the most expensive one on the lot.
Hmm - here in Colorado, gas prices have been trending downward the past few weeks, now stands at $3.399/gal for RUG at the local Kroger where I fill up my car.
PUG at the Shell station is around $3.849.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
I was clicking on a few GTs Edmunds lists as "near you" and found one with an MSRP of $49k. Must have had a kitchen sink to get that high. Do people really buy those loaded up models?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
in the sales dept, how common is it for the salesman to cluelessly or intentionally provide the first/free tank of gasoline as 87 octane rather than premium, even if premium is recommended or 'required'? (Is it true that most/many dealerships have only one gas tank&pump and it is pumping low-octane not premium?)
Most of my ~30 lifetime vehicles owners manuals 'recommended' premium gas, and with those I've always used 87/low-octane during cold weather or long cruise-control drives.
The idea that any US gasoline car engine warranty could be voided by using 87 octane gas must be an embarrassment to the engine design engineers while probably being required by the marketing department due to focus-group studies.
The E320 mbenz I owned did indeed 'require' premium always got premium, and I expect the engine would have run just as flawlessly if a bit slower if its 100k miles had been via 87 octane. (There were countless non-engine problems with the vehicle, seemingly matching the 'bathtub reliability curve' such as for aircraft.)
We are from different worlds. On door of my fuel cap it clearly states "minimum 89 octane". Voided warranty or not, the idea of buying 40, 50, or 80 thousand dollar product and using a substandard means of its operation to save three or five bucks per tank (say thirty cents times usual twelve-fourteen gallons) simply incomprehensible to me. Seriously, I have difficulty to even understand why anybody would do that and why would it appear to them to be a good idea. If somebody owned a ten year old piece of junk that they got from their grandfather, then yeah I can see reasons. For something new, perhaps if it is a proverbial $299 lease for a person who had no business to get a car like that.... Anynody else, especially a 100K owner, I simply don't get it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
"proverbial $299 lease..."
Another reason not to buy a former lease, cheaping out on the gas because "it's not my car".
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Around me finding a $.30 delta is hard. 50-60 cents is more common. One reason I like my Sunoco station. Tends to have the tightest spread.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
"in the sales dept, how common is it for the salesman to cluelessly or intentionally provide the first/free tank of gasoline as 87 octane rather than premium, even if premium is recommended or 'required'? "
I worked in 3 dealerships in my lifetime (2 as a salesman and 1 as a manager) all of which were very high volume (300-700 new vehicles sales per month). If a car required premium gasoline, that is what the tank was filled with. None of the dealerships had their own gasoline tanks - in two of the dealerships the service tech who did the predelivery work filled the tank and at the other dealership the salesman filled the tank.
In all three cases, the dealership had a contract with a local gas station to buy that gas at a significantly discounted price. The gas station would provide up to 5 credit cards with the dealership's name on it. A receipt for the amount of gallons pumped was turned into the sales manager or the service manager who then wrote the stock number of the car on the receipt and signed that receipt. It was turned into the accounting department before 5 PM of each business day.
But regular gasoline was never put into the tank of a car requiring premium - only premium gas was used.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
"Around me finding a $.30 delta is hard. 50-60 cents is more common. One reason I like my Sunoco station. Tends to have the tightest spread."
I would agree - but the difference in price between RUG and PUG at the average gas station is closer to 50 cents per gallon. Mid grade is about 25-30 cents per gallon more than RUG.
Costco only sells RUG and PUG - no mid grade. I don't know why they sell mid grade which requires refineries to produce it. If refineries only produced RUG and PUG for cars, it would cut the cost to produce gasoline. They still have to produce aviation fuel, marine fuel, etc., but why the oil companies need to offer mid grade gasoline I can't figure out.
Car and SUV engines are designed to run on RUG or PUG. Mid grade gasoline is neither of those. So if discontinuing production of mid grade gasoline could reduce the cost of PUG and RUG, why not eliminate it?
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
They don't refine Plus grade. It's a mixture, at the pump, of Regular and Premium.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Happy Easter to all. May we all continue to receive God's blessings for the rest of the year and beyond.
Speaking of Global Warming I posted this on another thread but I thought I’d share with the regulars on this forum:
I don't remember if this angle was discussed earlier but Tesla is an unmistakable game changer. Not as another car company but as a utility company. Tesla is building recharging stations at a rapid rate and some of these stations are not necessarily on the major routes.
As we all know the 85 kWh batteries can be recharged at a Tesla charging station free of charge but not so for lesser batteries. And that's how Tesla has changed the game. With other companies joining the electric car bandwagon their limited range cars will need to be recharged. Rather than build their own infrastructure they will simply equip their cars to be "filled up" at a Tesla charging station. Two streams of revenue will be generated from this strategy: a licensing agreement for a conversion kit for non-Tesla cars that want free charging and a tariff for the cost of electricity used for those not wanting to buy the upgraded conversion kit.
What a beautiful concept. Tesla can change the driving habits of motorists to drive on less congested roads to take advantage of the new charging stations and to revitalize routes once abandoned by motorists such as Route 66.
And guess what; Tesla will be generating even more money from Uncle Sam and State governments to build this infrastructure since it would help alleviate the congestion problem around major cities.
I think my local Costco is a bit tighter. Perhaps though I lost touch with the spread, as I have used PUG for over ten years now, since I got WRX in 2003 and all subsequent cars were premium. I think I actually could use midgrade 89, as opposed to those BMW turbos, which require 91. I use premium, because Costco doesn't sell midgrade, so I use premium and never look back.
Doesn't change a thing. If I have money on forty plus grand on a car, I should have money to operate it the way manual says, lease or own (I own). That's my stance, anyway.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
"They don't refine Plus grade. It's a mixture, at the pump, of Regular and Premium."
Thanks, Imid, I learn something new every day on SFTSF.
Still, why bother selling mid grade if cars require either RUG or PUG? Limiting available gasoline to 2 grades would still be less costly. The consumer can fill his own tank with half PUG and half RUG if he/she prefers gasoline with a little more octane - right? I used to do that when I had cars that only required 87 octane ratings.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger