Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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I used to tell him that if he had a number in mind he was willing to pay, he should just throw that number out there to see if the dealership would "bite". IF they did, he saved himself a ton of aggravation and loads of time. To him, it was a game, however. He enjoyed playing it.
Before he passed several years ago, I took him with me to buy a car. I had my numbers all prepared. While the car I was looking at was a BMW, which my Father loathed since it wasn't an "American" car, I had a target number in which I'd pull the trigger after completing my research. We went to the only two BMW dealerships in our area. The first one, I let him negotiate with. The 2nd one, I did my way.
He took 3 hours to get to my number before we left to "think about it". I made my offer while still on the test drive (which was $50 below his final negotiated number). My dealer, after about 5 minutes of deliberations, accepted my number. Bought it. It took around 45 minutes from the time we walked in, to the time I drove away in the car.
Two different ways to get to the deal. One was hard. The other one was easy. From that point forward, my Father let me negotiate his future car purchases.
The problem with your second method is a buyers lack of knowledge. If all the information was available to all the parties involved the transaction could be very quick.
However, since buyers don't know all the info, a method like your fathers is required just so you don't leave a bundle on the table during your purchase.
Lets change the scenario around. What if you go buy your BMW "the easy way". And then your father or your neighbor using the salami method gets the car for thousands less. You wouldn't feel too smart then.
I propose that your method only went quick because you had already determined what those BMWs were going for.
Time, if used correctly and combined with other negotiation methods, is an effective negotiating tool that should produce a better result. But there is a difference between using time effectively and wasting it, and it is obviously better for the buyer to do the former, rather than the latter. (This is all covered in depth in the Purchasing Strategies thread.)
Two different ways to get to the deal.
What I find funny is how this whole discussion is set up, as if spending money quickly is a sign of success. The reality is somewhat different: It is extremely easy to spend money. Everybody's favorite color is green, and if you spread enough of it around, then you will give away plenty of it, there will always be takers.
I find negotiation to be very easy and not terribly time consuming, and frankly, your dad doesn't sound as if he was very good at it, so using him as a benchmark is inappropriate when there are far better players who can be used as yardsticks. He seems to have used only one tactic (time), without using other methods that could have gotten him better prices in even less time. There are more than two ways to do this, contrary to your assertion, and no method that is built upon making the first offer (which ensures a price floor) is going to be advantageous for a buyer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When I got the survey for my recent purchase, the question was asked "How long did it take from the time you decided to buy your car until completion of the delivery process?"
To me, this meant AFTER the price was agreed on, (because up until that point, I couldn't say that I had really "decided" to buy the car), to the time I drove away.
And I couldn't really remember how long it took, but it didn't seem like very long. I think maybe 45 minutes or so. Fill in the papers, sign a few things, give them a check. The dealer ran my credit (even though I wasn't financing there) at the early stages (just to make sure my check would be good, I'm sure, and that seems fair). While I was signing the papers, the service section was washing the car and making it all sparkling pretty. It was done by the time the papers were signed. The salesman had already shown me how things worked as part of the sales process, he didn't have to go over all that again.
This was on a Saturday, by the way, so they were a little busy, but not overloaded.
Anyway, is this about average? Faster? Slower? How long does it usually take you to actually do a delivery, with paperwork and car prep, after all the negotiations are done?
-juice
The only thing he could rely on was his perception of what the magic "buy" number was. In fairness, he started buying cars before there even was a mulroney sticker. So, he had to make educated guesses on how to get the best deal. He didn't know he had a reasonable deal until he went to 2-3 dealerships for the same car and they all let him walk before he knew what the real, bottom line number was.
He was a good negotiator based on the information he had available to him at the time. As time went on and available information changed, he didn't. But, that's when he enlisted me. I could show him incentives, invoice, etc....on paper. He had to guess at all of those figures.
We have all the paper preprinted and all finance and isurance done ahead of time. They just come in sign all the paper then I do the car side of the delivery.
On Land Rovers there is a lot of technical features and I could spend two hours just going over the navigation system alone. Typicaly I keep my side of the delivery to about an hour and the paper side usualy takes 30-45 minutes.
If the customer would like me to go over things more in depth I am more then happy to either that day or some time in the future.
I have plenty of people who come back for a refresher course on the vehicle.
How much do you go over when people do test drives? As a customer, I ask tons of questions before, during (well, maybe not so much during), and after the test drive, about how things work and whatever else I want to know.
Do your customers wait until they've bought the thing to find out how it works??
Isell, as a Honda guy your cars are pretty straight-forward, uncomplicated cars, too. How long does it usually take you to do a delivery, after you and the customer have agreed on price?
Other purchases at different dealers have taken as long as 3 hours.
Phil
Service is so backlogged that we typicaly need to give them 48 hours to get a car through the shop if it needs anything in the way of accesories. We should have five techs but one just quit and I think we really should have six to keep up with the level of work they have.
We do get a handful of unwinds and I am sure a lot of it comes from the fact that we cannot deliver a car the same day.
The LR3 that I delivered this past Tuesday to the guy who never drove it was like that. He wanted the truck on Monday when he first came in but that was not possible since he came in at 6:00 PM and there was no way to have the car ready.
It was a struggle to have it ready by 5:00 PM the next day and we barely made it. That vehicle needed a PDI recheck since it had been sitting on the showroom floor for six months and I was worried about low voltage problems from a couple of dead batteries.
The PDI recheck, which involves a short test drive, a second quick test drive by myself to double check everything and get gas plus having the car detailed took almost four hours alone.
The PDI takes about an hour, if there are no problems found I think they had to clear a couple of errors in the computer so it took about an hour and a half, then about a 10 minute test drive then I drive it for another about 10 minutes. By the time it gets back to detail it has been about 2 hours and then it waits in line for a while till they can get to it. Does not take long to get to four hours at all since it takes them about an hour and a half to detail a LR3 on average.
The most time-consuming thing ever, though, is the LR3 entertainment system in the HSEs! You can have about 7 different types of media going at once in that set-up! That's a little overwhelming for a new owner. The learning curve on that one almost REQUIRES a follow-up visit!
with no trade in.
30 miniutes test drive, needs analysis
10 minute tour of store
20 minutes negotiation, gathering credit info
(barring no credit issues)
10 minutes to gather paperwork
25 minutes in finance office.
at this point car is in detail
20 minutes going over books and warranty
15-45 (depending on car)going over the car.
2-2.5 hours total.
But there is no idle time.
I have not been on this board for a week, but OY VAY! Why did the people from the department of redundancy department take over in here? Yes we are evil salespeople, yes we know they want a cheap price, yes we get crabby when people are mooches. But you know what, you get a lot farther with sugar than with turpentine. I have no problem with dealing with someone who wants a cheap price. But to get it by wearing me out is the only thing that makes me crabby. If someone gives me a price up front I will say"If you don't ask you dont get, so why don't we ask" or if its crazy, I will tell them so and tell them they can go all over town trying to get it and to come back after they are done. (sure enough they usually comeback after they come to their senses)
Don't the purchasing experts have their own forum to expound their points?
The last time we bought a car, we actually had two transactions (well, three counting the trade in) - my wife bought a new VUE and my son bought a used L-series and we traded in our VW New Beetle.
We were at the dealer 3 or 4 hours in total. As it was a Saturday, we had to wait for the F&I person to become available.
The only car we've bought in the past few years where the salesperson reviewed all the features was when we bought the Beetle. Both Saturns and the Focus were pretty much "here are your keys" after the paperwork was signed.
Yeah...it's called, "Purchasing Strategies".
A discussion where I frequently see bigdveedubgirl and her fellow "evil salespeople" drop in.
You guys keep us in line, and we(purchasing experts)keep you in line. I think that's how it's suppose to work. :shades:
No problem: Give me the right price, and I'll take the keys; try to give me BS, and I'll take you for a ride. Seems fair to me...
Yes, and thanks to you, isell, b_r, and the one or two others for saving the discussion. I'm still bitter about the loss of Inconsiderate Buyers due to the "I hate my life and am miserable so you should be too" crowd. (who remembers snurple?)
All of that stuff was taken care of on the spot for me. For financing, I gave them a check for half of it and arranged financing with my credit union for the other half. They let me drive away with the car just on the basis of my check, with the remainder to come a few days later when the credit union did its thing. (Of course they ran my credit and knew I was an upstanding citizen and all that.) Insurance, I just called USAA from the dealership and they added the new car to my policy immediately. Plates, the dealership put on a dealer plate, good for 30 days until the permanent ones came through.
Interesting that it's different in Boston. I used to live there (Go, Red Sox!) and most things are more complicated there than elsewhere.
What if the right price is not your price?
Makes sense to me.
I guess the trade-off is they might rush the PDI if you want delivery right away. Subaru dealers often forget to air down the tires. They're shipped with lots of air to prevent flat-spotting.
-juice
We are the only Rover dealer for a large part of two states and we are the closest Rover dealer for people in certain parts of two other states.
A second location is in the works but like everything it just takes time. Time to find a site that both managment and Rover can agree on and more time to get approval then start construction.
Our techs are great we just need a few more and that other location to free up some of the burden they have. It is just kind of hard to get good techs and you have to be able to almost think backwards to work on many of the older Rovers.
Of our four techs one is a master Land Rover tech and the other will be if he can ever get into the final Land Rover class he needs.
Our master tech is also our shop foreman and just won a national competition for Land Rover. The competition was only open to certified master technicians and then only technicians that he scored over a certain threshold on previous online and written exams.
Thirty something technicians from all over the US and one from Canada qualified. Two from each region had the chance to win a cruise if they scored high enough in the competition. Basicly they bugged a bunch of Rovers with all kinds of problems then set the techs loose to diagnois the problem.
Points were awarded for various categories and the two people from each region with the higest point totals as long as they were above the overall average won the cruise.
Our tech won along with a tech from the largest dealer in New England.
On the cruise they will announce an over all winner who gets the Marque of Distinction award.
As for the "purchasing experts" I dont even bother to respond to them anymore. Even if they say something that I marginaly agree with or something that is completly right I ignore them.
I have spent more then enough time on many different types of forums to recognize a sucker punch when I see one.
RE LR3 HSE:
The DVD system plus rear seat entertainment in the LR3 HSE is very cool. You can have so many things going on in there it is insane.
We actually hooked up a LR3 for display once that had the DVD system in it. We hooked up a TV in the back then pluged it to the DVD system with the RCA jacks. So now we got a DVD playing on the TV and on the DVD drop down screen and the sound track running through the LR3's sound system at almost full blast.
Very very cool and very loud.
If its not in my price range then the price isn't right, I walk and go some place else. If some place else can't do it then I walk from there go home and re-evaluate what car I am going to buy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
None in stock. They said the wait was until around December for a car. At least they didn't have any markup, the Pontiac dealer next door had a $5000 (!) markup on the window. They were taking $500 deposits at the Saturn store just to get on the wait list.
I'm surprised demand is that high, the Miata is 400 lbs lighter and has won most comparisons, I guess supply it more plentiful on those plus it's been around for a while.
-juice
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
A lot of these people email me and tell me they have had enough. It is one thing to have differing viewpoints but some people just go too far and jump on every post.
Too bad...
-juice
I heard it's not always the case and some people are reportedly getting dealer discounts (not only manufacturer's), but if they put ADP stickers, I'm sure somebody would report it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
My last car purchase was my current Passat. Here's the process:
Sunday
Negotiating took all of 10 minutes. Signed the paperwork and went home.
No calls to insurance because they are not open on Sundays.
No registration or title paperwork without insurance binder.
No loan application or check because the credit union isn't open on Sundays.
No certified check for balance because bank isn't open on Sundays.
Car ain't going anywhere without full payment, paperwork, and registration.
Monday
Dealer did the swap
My wife put in the loan application at the credit union.
I worked with the insurance company and dealer to ensure everyone has what they need.
Tuesday
Got the loan approved but no check until Wednesday because both of us have to be present to sign the loan and proof of insurance with them named as the title holder has to be submitted.
PDI done by dealer.
Insurance agent faxes binder to dealer and me.
Wednesday
Got the loan check and ran over to my bank to get the certified check for the rest.
Dealer does all the paperwork for the title and registration and registers the vehicle on-line with RMV.
Thursday
Finally get to pick up the car.
Friday
Turn in old plates at RMV.
I've never heard of a spot delivery being done in this area. I'm sure they happen - I'm just unaware of it.
That is not the experience I remember from a Saturn dealer during the mid 90's by any means.
On our more complicated cars, they come with an excellent DVD that does a better job than I ever can. I make sure they have it and I suggest strongly that they watch it.
We once had a sales person who talked about the 3-C deliveries.
C- the car?
C- the keys?
C-ya!
Delivery on a Land Rover is not a Chevy. I usually spend 30-45 minutes. More than that and the customer loses retention. I then schedule a second appointment for in depth. The DVD's now in LR3's do a gret job on Nav and Phone integration.
I got to email you later I forgot to reply after you last email. I have been really behind in all my email communications lately which is bad for business.
Next best, I bought over the phone, fedexed the documents, asked for a courtesy vehicle pickup from the airport. Delivery took 10 minutes while they went and found the all-weather floor mats. Told them to stop the delivery spiel as I was really in a hurry and would give them a 100% on the CSI without it.
In fact, my longest delivery was a half hour. Managed to get the F&I guy to sit in the back seat going over the paperwork while the salesman did the spiel on my Volvo.
I don't like
wastingspending time in dealers, can you tell?If its not in my price range then the price isn't right, I walk and go some place else. If some place else can't do it then I walk from there go home and re-evaluate what car I am going to buy.
Yup, me too.
Back in the mid-90's I was car shopping, and really wanted a Maxima. Budget was still a consideration for me at the time and I had $18,000 to spend. A Nissan dealer had a demo Maxima in a color I liked, equipped as I wanted, with a few thousand miles on it, and wanted $18,700 or so, as I recall. I offered the $18k that I had budgeted. He wouldn't do it.
I went to look at Camrys. After a little back and forth between two dealers I closed on one at $17,700.
A couple days later the Nissan dealer called and wondered if we could "talk further," said he could come down to $18,300. I told him sorry, too little, too late, I had already bought something else.
I ended up being happy with it for several years, too.
So, for some people a budget is a budget, and if the dealer can't meet the price the customer is willing to pay, well, so be it, there are other cars out there.
That said, I'm glad I'm now at a point where budget is not as crucial as other factors. Still, it kept me financially disciplined enough to GET to this point, so it's all good, in the long run.
Most of the time if it's just a straight forward deal, about 45 mins.
www.yourticket2drive.com
VA/NC
Together
Settle on a price.
Write a Buyers Order
Get copies of DL and Ins ( Credit app if needed )
Buyer:
a. write personal check
b. hand over sack of money
c. do a 'hold' contract pending CU or other financing check
d. do a finance contract
e. call insurance w/in 30 days.
Dealer
Get the vehicle ( if not in stock )
Prep the vehicle
a. receipt check
b. count out $30,000 in $20 bills
c. print 'hold' contract
d. drop finance contract
e. verify insurance is current on next working day
Delivery: ( choose one )
- at the store on the same day from stock if possible;
- at the store when vehicle arrives after PDI or DX;
- at customer's home;
- at customer's place of business;
- at local airport ( meeting customer );
Even when I took delivery of my current car with a Nav system and blue tooth, it didn't take me more than an hour from the time I walked in, to the time I drove away.....with a $200 over invoice deal on an Acura. Then again, I bought on a slow Tuesday evening when I was the only delivery being made.
As someone else said, I knew as much about the car as the sales person and commented about much of the presentation that most of the presentation was stuff I already knew (like how to operate the power windows, or seats, or sunroof, etc). So, that part went quickly.
Wow. The dealer made you run around alot before taking delivery, although you had the added burden of getting a loan approaved. My experience was much different...
I had been to the dealer the day before and verbally agreed on a price. I thought it over that night and returned the next evening to seal the deal.
It was after hours, and there was no way for them to confirm my insurance, so they just made a copy of the Liability only policy on my old car.
Also, I was paying cash. I had transferred the funds from an online account to my checking account earlier that day, but it takes several days for the money to show up in the checking account.
I explained this to the dealer, and expected to fill out the paperwork that night, then take delivery of the car when the check cleared.
However, the dealer said "No problem. You can take the car now, and we'll just hold your check for a week until the money clears."
So he let me drive away in a brand new car with only $2,000 down and a $18,000 bad check with insufficient funds.
I was in and out within an hour.
Insurance agents aren't too fond of having dealers call them up and say add a 2006 Blahmobile to robr2's insurance - you have to coordinate it by supplying the buyer's order.
I once did buy a car in NH. They were ready to send us home with a personal check for the downpayment and an IOU for the balance from us. I told them I'd be back later in the week with all the paperwork.
As for delivery times, I have negotiated mostly over the Internet and the Honda dealer that I bought my Odyssey from knew I was coming in (I phoned the salesperson ahead of time), so they already had the van prepped. The dealer was very busy (it was a Saturday morning) and I had to wait about 30 minutes to finalize the paperwork, but I was in and out of the dealership in about two hours which is fine with me.
What I hate is when you have your wife and kid(s) and are just looking (and believe me, I am very up front and tell the dealer I am just looking) and they try to keep you at the dealer forever...
The Honda salesperson I worked with recently was one of the best I have ever had. She understood that I knew the features and specifications and was more interested in just driving it (she let me and my wife take it out by ourselves). I had a few questions which she promptly answered, but she was not pushy.