Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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This was a long time ago and that car was wholesaled off to who knows where.
I guess you do want the shortest term you can afford when you are upside down and must get a new car.
I just don't agree with the "must get a new car" part. That's the last thing you must do, i.e. take on even more new-car depreciation.
Getting a more fuel efficient car might offset some of that, but I bet the new-car depreciation ends up costing you more.
-juice
Our friend at a Pontiac dealership had put one of those neon stickers indicating "$2000 rebate" on a new Grand Am. Some lady came in and asked if the car only cost $2000. :surprise:
85 is far from to fast for a test drive. How is a person suppose to judge how well the car will accelerate from 60 mph to make a pass on a two lane road if they dont get it up to 85 or so?
Mike
No doubt. In my Maxima, 85 mph is known as "getting warmed up". :P
That said, if there was a 3rd party along on the test drive, I'd ask first. In my market (Grand Rapids, MI) it's not unusual to go out and test drive on your own. I only had it happen once, actually, at the Toyota dealer. It was a ready-to-give-birth-yesterday saleswoman, so I didn't push it too hard.
-juice
Now that I have my new car, I find I'm not really driving that fast; but I did want to make sure it could be done.
I'm not a salesperson. However, your test drive attitude is disrespectful and far from intelligent. Going 85mph in a new vehicle that doesn't belong to you...then not going that fast in your own vehicle. I guess the salespeople should be glad that you don't run into things just to make sure the airbags will deploy. You were wrong!
Courtesy Acura turned me loose in the TSX, but I've heard from other people that they usually send the salesperson along on test drives.
Folks, when you see something like this, please address it by e-mail rather than posting within the discussions. It only creates more work for me as I then have to delete the off-topic posts. Thanks!!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
When I saw that post this am, I backed up thru this forum and saw KYFDX as a host, and sent him an email. Didn't see at the top of the forum where it says who the host is now. I failed to read the fine print.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Here is what I want to relay to people that are browsing here from the Consumer end of the readership: There are several different and even sometimes conflicting resources out there that cause you to make your purchase process more difficult and less enjoyable for everyone. The Sales folks on here can probably support this statement: Regurgitating the scripted verbiage from a Consumer Reports "How to Not be Taken for a Ride by a Car Dealer" article is one way to really outsmart only one person - yourself. The best example is when people learn from something as informal as a general website that they should never reveal what they want to pay for their vehicle. This is the MOST important parameter that I need to adhere to in order to be a good consultant to my Guests. Without that information, I am forced to essentially begin wasting both our times from there on out. Walking through the rows of vehicle inventory, pointing, and saying "Do you like THIS one?...How about THIS one?" makes for a long and frustrating day for everyone.
So, the better thing to do is to be intelligent: do your online research. It is silly for me to think that you don't already have a rough approximation of what your car is worth, and what mine is worth. Take your time and research. If you do not have the time, visit the dealer and see if you can locate someone that you have a trust and rapport with and let them do the exhausting, professional work they are paid to perform for you, and weigh the decision from there. Being conditioned by a negative article about what to do and not to do, and being obstinate instead of a partner in the process will only prolong the problems people see when dealing with a person whose sole job is to know the vehicles more than you do so that you can abbreviate your often-unappealing process of purchasing something you want or need in a vehicle.
Why do you do that? Does the customer ask you to walk with them through rows of vehicles?
Have you ever thought about letting the customer look at the cars without you hanging around?
However, what's good for the goose is good for the gander -why do so many store make long and frustrating days for their customers by refusing to be straight up with their prices?
When folks do their research ahead of time, they should know they are getting a fair price. And what is "fair" pricing? That's when the Buyer recieves a great vehicle to match their needs at a price lower than sticker, but that still fills the rights of a Sales Consultant to be compensated for their time and professional level of help. Ideally, all gross profits would be split down the middle, but this is nearly always brought to a point in my dealings where the price favors the Guest. There is great monetary advantage of making sure your Customers are so happy that they come back...for their next vehicle, their childrens' vehicles, and their freinds and family's vehicles.
To all the Buyers and Dealers out there, remember that the largest, most primal fear of any shopper - no matter if it's cars or furniture or tickets to the big game - is that they will find out later that they paid more than their neighbor.
Others want to get better deal than their neighbors, or at least want to believe that.
There are some who honestly believe that fair profit is only when they profit, i.e. YOUR fair profit is only when it's negative. Anything more is just outrageus for them.
Some others have already been taken for a ride couple of times so the'll never trust again. Or they know someone who was.
There are dozens of reaons why consumers will not take your "upfront" approach at the face value. Every day you hear commercials tauting Joe's Chevy (or Toyota) as not only the lowest-priced, but nicest and most upfront with their customers. You go there and all their cars have no real prices posted, just MSRP and you know right away you'll have to fight on every step. Their "dealer fee" is $699, so they can claim selling at or below invoice, the vehicles are loaded with "appearance package", "fabric protection" and "paint sealant". They threaten you will get heart attack if you don't buy their life insurance and extended warranty. They take your 20% down and still put GAP on the contract because perhaps you may suck it in.
But they are the most upfront dealership in town with lowest prices, indeed.
That's why people don't believe any word you say, as you probably will not believe anything they say, either (about their trade, credit, or income).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If you won't rush up to the customer providing your bottom-line price, including everything that there is to know about your invoice, holdback, factory-to-dealer incentives and floorplan, why should I tell you what I'm going to spend?
As a buyer, I don't want to buy a "fair" price, but the lowest price possible. A price that a dealer defines as "fair" is higher than what an informed buyer needs to pay,and should generally not be anywhere near the sticker. The sticker is window dressing, nothing more.
There is a combative attitude instilled in a lot of buyers that whatever belongs to the dealer is theirs in terms of incentives, volume bonuses, etc. That is simply not true. I once had a person (who was a commissioned salesperson themselves, ironically) who was very well researched - which are the best clients to have, sincerely - tell me that they wanted the car for true net, which they knew (and really everyone should). In coming to an agreeable price, they held firm at true net and stated that they really didn't care if I made any money. I stated that I really didn't care if they bought the car. That was a very fair and finite ending to that interaction and I could move on to more valuable projects. The profit concept is a steady and necessary theme behind every one of us that owns a business or has a job. I have no problems extending myself beyond what I should to be flexible in pricing and do my Guests a favor, but the obstinance of those rare buyers that believe everything they happen across just makes them less satisfied when all most of us want is to help them get a car.
Since we know that you are unwilling to share those things, why should a buyer give you vital information about his budget, limitations and hot buttons when the only topics you're willing to discuss involve monthly payments and metallic paint? A true consultant would be an advocate for his client, and would provide him with information that would net him a rock-bottom price, but you clearly want more than that. Your consultation most benefits the dealership, not the customer -- in other words, business as usual.
It's hard to make money when you "kick out" customers.
Partly because it's none of your business...but that's beside the point...how about we talk about overhead; support staff salaries, utility bills, rent, advertising, etc.
The point being made was that customers need to have an idea of what their needs are and to be upfront about it. Dealers in turn should help the customer get the most for their money, there's nothing wrong with taking a slightly short deal in return for a satisfied customer.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
No. A "fair" price is what the market would bear for that vehicle in that region, which has nothing to do with sticker or the needs of the salesperson.
So it's fair to charge $10,000 over sticker on a popular new model, like when the new T-birds arrived?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My friend, you are "whistling in the dark" here.
You see, there are people here who care nothing about anything than PRICE! You will never convince these people of anything and they will dispute everything you have to say.
It didn't used to be this way here...too bad.
Exactly, and if the buyer doesn't consider it fair then he walks away.
If you want to sell your house, don't you want to get the best price that the market will bear? I doubt you'll price it based on what you paid for it plus 1% or whatever.
I'm not in car sales, but I do understand that a fair price is one that the market will bear. If the price is too high then either the product won't sell, or someone else will offer it for sale at a lower price.
Just because either I can't afford, or can't justify, the purchase of a product, doesn't mean it's being offered at an unfair price.
As long as it is fair to expect to buy a product that tanked below the merchant's cost (provided they are willing to sell it). And feel no sorry for the merchant or the salesman.
If you wanted to sell Pontiacs at the first place and expect market premium for that Solstice, you also need to deal with that Aztek nobody wanted. Don't cry you have ten kids to feed - I don't care (as you didn't when you happily took extra 5 grand for that Solstics). It cuts both ways.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It may appear so on your end but it is not the case. But lets look at it this way, if I want an Accord LX V-6 does it really matter where I buy it? Does it drive any better if I bought it from you rather than the dealer the next town down? Does your Accords magically get better gas mileage? My driving experience with the car won't change at all because of which dealer I buy it from.
Why buy it from you when I could get it down the street for hundreds less?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Now, I have to tell you that in the business world, someone who claimed to be my "consultant" and who gave me a response like that would be fired. Because obviously, you're playing for someone else's team (the dealership) and his interests, not mine. A good consultant would go out of his way to give me every tool possible needed to win.
The point being made was that customers need to have an idea of what their needs are and to be upfront about it
And what do I get in exchange for being upfront with you? Apparently, a higher price, as everything that is of value to me as a buyer (namely, your hot buttons and price points) is "none of my business."
A better point to be made is that a key to successful negotiations is to have information about the other party and to use it effectively. The more information that I have about you and your motivations, the better I can do; the less information that you have about me and my motivations, the less succesful that you will likely be.
Again, the dealers here have been telling us that it is optimal if we play a hand of stud poker, with all of our cards facing up and on the table, while they play draw poker against us, with all of their cards kept close to the vest. This car buying game has higher stakes than does your average hand at your weekly neighborhood poker game (hundreds or thousands of extra dollars are on the line), so it makes even less sense to do this for a car deal than it would for a hand of cards.
From the dealer's perspective, I completely understand why you would want to control the information flow, only disclosing whatever helps your side. (If I was in your shoes, that's exactly what I would do, too.) But it's another matter entirely for you to claim that this is good for the customer, when this is actually one of the worst things a customer can do for his position.
How about this, instead of trying to find out what they customer is willing to pay why don't you just come out and state what you are willing to take?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Assuming that you won't believe me because of my job title, I invite you to come in for a visit when you need a car and don't want to go through an uncomfortable negotiation...or just contact one of my many happy owners.
Well, as you know, it ain't gonna happen. With all of the car buying info available these days, your future customers will probably be even tougher to deal with.
I suggest you either learn how to enjoy dealing with your customers as they are or find a different line of work.
I really think it takes some nerve to tell someone the are their consultant when its the dealership that signs their paycheck.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You have made the most sense on this board so far. Not because you have a side picked, but because you understand the big picture and that everyone needs to benefit from the car buying experience.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Similar to being employed (which I'd assume many of you are), a true good employee of a company would be willing to accept a rock-bottom wage to benefit all involved, but we all generally want more than that. Recall that the commission you pay is the wage these people make. They work very hard - sometimes - (sometimes the deals just fall in their laps, admittedly), but compare this to tipping a bartender or waitress. Carrying food and managing occassionally-difficult clientele is a hard job and, through simple etiquette, there is a predetermined percentage that we all pay without much argument. In the relatively-high dollar world of real estate, you will still expect to pay 6% closing costs without putting up much of a fuss. In the middle of those, the people that study, compare, advise, seek out, coordinate transportation and financing, review your financial parameters, monitor and care for their own inventory, and do everything right down to putting your plates on your new car are expected to receive as close to %0 as a person's conscience and audacity will allow them to push for.
Doesn't seem fair...but I still love the people I meet and love the business. Maybe we're all gluttons for punishment. Maybe the relationships are my real compensation? In some cases, I'll take it. There are some REALLY cool people out there! You meet someone new everyday!
Here's a secret for buyers that at least I can say works. Be refreshing and cooperative, informed and reasonable, and just be fun to work with instead of keeping your arms folded, stubborn, or intimidated. If you are sincere about it, and any salesperson of any service or product can tell, make it apparent that you are a long-term Guest. You are the people that are a breath of fresh air and I seem to have no problems about going that extra mile to make sure you get what you want. Believe it or not, folks, sometimes you're smile and your excitement on becoming the driver of your new car is the best part of the transaction.
Take care, all! I appreciate all your candor and different viewpoints.
Poor analogy, I pay my 4-4.5% commission for the agent to act as my agent. To bring in the potential buyers and to sell my house. When I go to the dealership I am not selling I am buying. Completely different incentives.
You know the old adage buy low sell high? same goes here. When I hire the agent I am trying to sell my house at the highest possible price. The sales person benefits because the more the sales price the greater their commission. On the flip side when I buy a house, or car or anything else, I strive to buy it at the lowest possible cost.
Doesn't seem fair
Who said life was fair? When I go to the grocery store do I care if they make a profit on the can of soup I buy? No, I care that I am getting it at a reasonably low price. Same with cars, I don't care how much profit, if any, you make, I care about getting it at the lowest reasonable price.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's a nice way of saying that you are trying to make more than just a "mini". I don't blame you for trying, but that makes you a salesperson, not a consultant.
Your interests conflict with mine, you want more than I am willing or than I need to pay. True consultants don't do that.
By the way, I don't have a problem with your desire to earn as high of a profit as possible, that's your job. But my job is to get myself a low price, not to generate more profits for you.
Here's a secret for buyers that at least I can say works. Be refreshing and cooperative, informed and reasonable, and just be fun to work with instead of keeping your arms folded, stubborn, or intimidated.
I agree with that. I have advocated on the "Purchasing Strategies" thread that it is a good buyer strategy to allow salespeople to believe that they have control of the deal, making them think (at least in the beginning) that we are "fun to work with", i.e. willing to pay too much. Since they use the "consultation" process and test drive as tools to achieve control, I say -- give it to them. Rather than fight over control, trickle it out so that they feel that they have worked for it. (Don't worry, you'll be able to take it back later, control is the buyer's to both giveth and taketh away.)
The problem with this is that the car sales business is organized around "extracting" maximum amount of money from a given customer. The whole array of tactcs is employed in gaging how much exactly it is. Customers respond to it and from that point on it becomes then a "zero-sum" game. Therefore, since there is a distinct possibility that the other side will treat it as a "zero-sum" game, one must be prepared for it and enter the , thus all the tactics employed by the dealerships and all the survival strategies used by the buyers.
In my opinion current environment used to serve dealers very well in the past, hence they are so attached to it. I suspect their average profit used to be much higher than today (I may be wrong) and they are frustrated today with people expecting to give them cars for "free" or mini. They will keep the current system as long as there are still enough whales out there to outweigh the minis.
I believe that new car dealerships will converge towards "one price for all" attitude over next years. Perhaps not tomorrow, but it will happen. The number of informed buyers will only increase and the only viable tactic will be "when I say 20 grand I really mean it". Of course, for time being the industry will invent new ways to obscure the money flow, but those attempts can only go so far.
Past failures of "no hassle" dealerships were purely for reasons of the surroundings - if everywhere else you know the sticker has little to do with the transaction and the guys as the group do not have exactly stellar reputation for truthfulness, why would one assume that this guy really means that? All it takes is enough of the owners to say - we can't play it anymore, as we are likely to lose more times than win - we have to change. Won't come easy, but I think it will.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If a customer doesn't care about me as a person, or doesn't care if I make money, I either kick them to the curb, or discount the car $50 dollars at a time.
If you all think we are so starving for deals, you are wrong. We are there only to make money for the dealership, and we will make money off of you somehow, or you aren't leaving in a car. And just to clarify, making money off of you is constituted as at least a $1,200 profit.
Just think for a second of how much money it takes to run a dealership, and then you might realize why we won't give away cars for free.