I find the discussion of who is a bigger liar, salesperson or customer, very amusing
I don't. It's really old and pointless. I will throw myself on this grenade and admit that I'm the World's Biggest Liar. This is, after all, the Internet.
Signed, Super Smart, Wealthy, Athletic, & Beautiful Host
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
As much as I hate ads like this, it is not illegal or untruthful. The dealer has to pay off the trade to get a title. I also hate the "$3500 for your trade push pull or drag". The small print says you must disclose your trade before entering into negotiations. Guess what happens to the price - and how much gross is in the car deal.
I haven't patented the "Moo Method" yet, but that would be pretty hysterical. It just might work too! Keep reducing your price until you literally get thrown out of a dealership. Then you know you've hit a ridiculous number.
My favoritte is: "We'll pay off your trade no matter how much you owe!!!"
There's a good one in this months Consumer Reports magazine. A dealership is offering to buy back your used car at 100% of original MSRP. That's right... 100% of original MSRP!! But, follow the asterisk to the fine print, and it points to a deduction of 55 cents per mile and other fees. Making the readers 2000 Ford Focus worth about minus $30,000. :sick:
Some might argue that GAP coverage will do just that...
Yeah, if he totals the car before paying it off. But salespeople/finance guys will give the impression that gap insurance will get you out of an upside down situation when you trade the car.
I could be wrong, but I believe you wouldn't be able to patent this. This method of negotiation was already perfected by Lisa Douglas, when negotiating with Mr. Haney. ("Green Acres" anyone?) If I remember correctly, it usually worked quite well for her! :P
This method of negotiation was already perfected by Lisa Douglas...
I believe it was The 3 Stooges that first introduced this concept. Moe would ask Curley how many fingers he was holding up... when Curley answered incorrectly he had his eyes gouged out... then Moe would walk away.
No. I think you confused the "Moe Method" with the "Moo Method".
From discussions here, it appears the world renounced Moo Method requires the would-be customer to offer a lower price at each successive dealership visit.
My argument is that Lisa Douglas made a similar negotiation tactic very famous, and quite successful! Every time Mr. Haney countered with a new selling price, she would lower her offer. Eventually, the frustrated Mr. Haney, after complaining how Mrs. Douglas didn't know how to negotiate properly, would surrender to her final offer. :P
I thought everyone knew that. She works for Edmunds doesn't she. Those guys get kick hold backs from both the manufactures and dealerships and if that weren't bad (good if you were them) enough haven't you noticed how much Edmunds dues have gone up. Do I have to tell you where this goes. I tell ya it's borderline gouging.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Well, I have been in the low 80s lately...score and temp. BUT forecast for this weekends tee time is much cooler. Going from early summer to late winter here in Memphis. Low in the low 30s this coming Sunday, high around 50. I think we are bouncing on both sides of spring :-)
The simplicity of your method has many benefits. As long as the buyer has the wherewithal to perform the homework of determining an acceptable out the door price he can live with then the negotiating, grinding, arguing can be replaced with patience, self confidence and a smiling face while visiting the dealers.
Thanks for sharing the BOBST method so I don't have to wait for it to appear in paperback.
If someone counter offers my counter offer with a lower offer than the one they just gave...I assume they're joking. If they do it again, I usually throw them out. I don't have time to waste on people like that. Especially when I've got 150 leads per month to follow up on and 5-6 customers a day walking in. I'm fortunate that my dealership gives me leverage. If I get too frusterated or annoyed with a customer I show them the door.
Here's a dirty little secret...most of us don't actually need to sell any individual a car. I need 15 a month to pay my bills...I usually end up at around 20-25. If I get the feeling someone is just wasting my time, I put an end to it.
Basically what Bobst does is walk into a dealership and hand the salesman a piece of paper with his offer. If they don't accept it, he leaves and goes to the next dealership and offers them slightly HIGHER until someone accepts.
I think we need a clarification here from the master as I don't believe he would offer the next dealer a slightly higher amount. I believe it would be the same amount and eventually, he would up his offer.
But I don't believe it's ever gone that far. If the homework is done properly, it shouldn't take more than a couple dealers.
Bless you, my son. Of course you may have a clarification.
On our last two purchases, they accepted our first offer. Of course, we had to first leave, but they followed us into the parking lot and said our offer was OK.
When we bought our 1997 Accord we had to try two dealers and it took three dealers when we got our 1999 Accord. We increased the price $100 when we went to a different dealer.
It took three dealers when we got a 1995 Accord (the birth of the Bobst method) and two dealers when we bought a 1995 Civic for our daughter.
Why wouldn't you just increase your offer by $100 at the same dealer instead of going to a different dealer and starting the whole process over again? I didn't think customers walked or salesman lost sales over $100 but I guess it happens.
I know your method in engraved in gold but do you think it would help the deal if a check with your price was attached to the piece of paper that specified the exact car. That way the dealer knows it is a buy now situation and not just price shopping.
I don't believe I should increase my offer until I am absolutely, positively, 100% sure that my current offer has been refused.
How do I determine my offer has been refused? As far as I know, there is only one way - leave and see if they change their mind.
In using your method, I would also give them one business day after the offer was made to the circle of dealers before raising the offer for the next pass to be as positive as possible that the current offer has been refused.
Don't pay for that gold plated "Book of Bobst". I can get it for you much cheaper. Of course it's written on a paper napkin and there are a few typos and a ketchup stain but what do you want for $19.95?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
remember, if you up the offer at the same dealer, you are now negotiating. And the key tenet of the Bobst method is, no negotiating.
I, personnally, would modify it slightly (call it Bobst 2.0). If I thought my offer was reasonable, I would try the same offer at the 2nd, and maybe 3rd dealer. If none of them took it, then I would up it.
Of course, that would assume I have the time to dealer hop (although I guess it doesn't take long at each one..), and more important, there were enough dealers to visit and they all had the right car!
Making the readers 2000 Ford Focus worth about minus $30,000.
You're lucky. I have over 140K on my Elantra which means they would take over $77k of the MSRP of my car making it worth about minus $62K. :surprise: Talk about being upside down on a car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have done that but not in buying a car. Its usually when the counter offer is way out of line. It can give the message that you know they are way high and you can play the game. Usually at the time I know that no deal can be done.
It has worked once.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That is the part about the "bobst method" I have never understood.
Just raise your offer at the store you are already at!
But Bobst is making a very well-educated offer, one that is probably completely doable for the dealer. Why should he reward that dealer for turning down a doable deal and attempting to squeeze him for more money?
I think the Bobst method is genius, and I applied it in part when buying this past Dec. That said, a caveat for newcomers who are learning about the Bobst method for the first time -- he always pays cash and he never has a trade. If you're financing and/or trading, you may end up frustrating yourself and the dealer(s) if you attempt to use the Bobst method in its purest form.
The bottom line is that the ability to walk away gives the customer an awful lot of leverage in the transaction.
I think the Bobst method is genius, and I applied it in part when buying this past Dec. That said, a caveat for newcomers who are learning about the Bobst method for the first time -- he always pays cash and he never has a trade. If you're financing and/or trading, you may end up frustrating yourself and the dealer(s) if you attempt to use the Bobst method in its purest form.
I used what I call the Bobst, Modified method when I bought the wife a Forester in December because we had a trade. I told them what I would pay Delivered, OTD, including the trade.
I told them to let me know if they could do the deal. Four hours later they called and said it was doable. We bought the car a few days later.
We only work one shift at the Auto Show, as it rotates between the different local dealers.
Other funny sitautions I encountered:
Lady gets into a Civic, and right away starts making sour faces how she can't fit in, and it's a bad design, and her knee hits the steering wheel and so on. So pessimistic. So after she complains to her husband, I interrupt her, and lower the driver's seat she's sitting in, and voila!!!! she can get in and out easy! She felt a little embarassed by it.
Question on the fuel cell vehicles, as to where they are and why they're not here at the show. I tell them they're in the lab getting researched and developed.
Another looker asked me why the fuel cell car is not for sale yet. I told him cause you need a network of hydrogen stations to fill one up. How you gonna drive one if you can't fill it up?
I was joking around with a coworker at the show, asking him dumb questions: I need to have a Ridgeline that runs on hybrid power and gets 100mpg, do you have something similar? His answer to me was: What are you doing here at the auto show? You want to save on gas you go buy yourself a bicycle, and you won't spend anything on gas. Why are you here looking at cars? :P :P
Last but not least, this is a comment you hear at the autshows, in magazine letters sections, and in showrooms:
If Honda (or insert any brand name here) comes out with a so and so (typically a car or configuration not being offered at the moment), then I would be the first in line to buy one!! Right right, I'm sure you would..... Maybe 1% of those that say that are true to their word, the rest are just strokes.
I have a theory that if the dealer accepts your offer right away without any negotiation, you probably could have done better by haggling. What incentive does the dealer have to give you your rock bottom price right away? The sales manager may eventually give in to your price, but he's going to make you earn it. And I guarantee that any minimum profit deal the dealer does, he's going to fight like hell to get some profit back in F&I with extended warranty, mop and glo, gap ect... Very few customers pay cash and have no trade.
"Most customers could do that if they want to. Just sell your car yourself and get your financing from a bank yourself"
If you are going to be financing all/any of the new vehicle, you are foolish to not line up your own financing before entering into the dealership for negotiations. I did this for my past 2 vehicle purchases, and offered the dealer the opportunity to beat my rate (which both dealers were able to do). I am certain that by having walked in to the dealership with a pretty good rate in hand, I was able to get a better rate than I would have just solely relying on dealer financing.
Another slick ad is "We'll pay $8,000 for your trade...or make the first two months payment." The guy practically says it under his breath. He was advertising Kias for $99 a month. Wow, how generous! Most likely get the first two months payment which = $198 for their trade.
If someone counter offers my counter offer with a lower offer than the one they just gave...
LOL, do people really do that?
Ya, we have had it happen when we have accepted a persons first offer. I guess they fear that since we said OK they have offered to much.
I have it happen when I get people in my office and they have negotiated a price but never stopped to consider the payment associated with the price. They wanted a $25K difference but also wanted the payment to be $350. This usually happens with people who just pull numbers out of the air and really can't justify them.
For instance if we are at $25500 they offer $25000, if it would have been $26500 they would have offered $26000. I guess it is the "round down" method of negotiating
I don't know if you're saying this in the same way that I've heard down south here, but that is one of the funniest words to say to customers. They babble along about something and you sit across the desk saying, "Right, right, right."
Psycho salesman said that a few times when I was near him and his customer. Hysterical to hear. I don't know if it translates to the page though. :P
I have a theory that if the dealer accepts your offer right away without any negotiation, you probably could have done better by haggling
You're absolutely right. But if the homework is done correctly, then your price is near the lower end of what they need to make the deal and in every case I've heard of, there was some back and forth where the dealer tried to bump it up. Politely but firmly state the offer is firm and after a few times of going back and forth or even getting up to walk out, the dealer relents and you're driving away in the new vehicle.
I like bobst's methods. I've done the same many times.
But, depending on my mood, and how I feel about the original dealer, I may actually sit down with the original dealer for a little "give and take" (very little).
Some caveats, though...
--if the first dealer counters my offer with something way above my original offer, I'm walking. We won't be doing business. I'm confident in my numbers. I don 't need, nor want to get into a protracted negotiation session. --if I walk, they follow and accept my original offer, I may or may not make the deal. What makes my number more pallatble now, than it was 5 minutes, ago? Better throw in some freebies to get me back into the store to close the deal. --if the salesperson follows after rejecting my initial offer, is close with the "coutner offer" (and I mean real close), but offers something else of value to the deal that justifies the "bump", I may walk back into the dealership to make the deal.
All that said, I qualify for GMs employee prices (including Saabs and Saturns). Those are great and always well under invoice. I used to qualify for Ford's A plan (employee pricing). Again, great prices. My sister, who worked for Ford took their buyout package. I don't know if part of the package includes letting family members buy at employee prices still, though. But, that included buying Mazdas, Jaguars, Volvos, Land Rovers at employee discounts, too (I guess there will be no Aston Martins for me, however).
Nissan/Infiniti, I get supplier pricing. That leaves Chrysler, Mecedes, BMW, Lexus, Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Acura, Rolls Royce, Mini, any Italian brand, as among the brands I have to buy in the traditional way.
Comments
I don't. It's really old and pointless. I will throw myself on this grenade and admit that I'm the World's Biggest Liar. This is, after all, the Internet.
Signed,
Super Smart, Wealthy, Athletic, & Beautiful Host
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I haven't patented the "Moo Method" yet, but that would be pretty hysterical. It just might work too! Keep reducing your price until you literally get thrown out of a dealership. Then you know you've hit a ridiculous number.
-Moo
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
There's a good one in this months Consumer Reports magazine. A dealership is offering to buy back your used car at 100% of original MSRP. That's right... 100% of original MSRP!! But, follow the asterisk to the fine print, and it points to a deduction of 55 cents per mile and other fees. Making the readers 2000 Ford Focus worth about minus $30,000. :sick:
Yeah, if he totals the car before paying it off. But salespeople/finance guys will give the impression that gap insurance will get you out of an upside down situation when you trade the car.
One question on the method -
Is the piece of paper he uses a check with the amount written in and the PAY TO blank awaiting a dealer to accept?
I could be wrong, but I believe you wouldn't be able to patent this. This method of negotiation was already perfected by Lisa Douglas, when negotiating with Mr. Haney. ("Green Acres" anyone?) If I remember correctly, it usually worked quite well for her! :P
I believe it was The 3 Stooges that first introduced this concept. Moe would ask Curley how many fingers he was holding up... when Curley answered incorrectly he had his eyes gouged out... then Moe would walk away.
Here's TWO!
From discussions here, it appears the world renounced Moo Method requires the would-be customer to offer a lower price at each successive dealership visit.
My argument is that Lisa Douglas made a similar negotiation tactic very famous, and quite successful! Every time Mr. Haney countered with a new selling price, she would lower her offer. Eventually, the frustrated Mr. Haney, after complaining how Mrs. Douglas didn't know how to negotiate properly, would surrender to her final offer. :P
I thought everyone knew that. She works for Edmunds doesn't she. Those guys get
kickhold backs from both the manufactures and dealerships and if that weren't bad (good if you were them) enough haven't you noticed how much Edmunds dues have gone up. Do I have to tell you where this goes. I tell ya it's borderline gouging.jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Thanks for sharing the BOBST method so I don't have to wait for it to appear in paperback.
Here's a dirty little secret...most of us don't actually need to sell any individual a car. I need 15 a month to pay my bills...I usually end up at around 20-25. If I get the feeling someone is just wasting my time, I put an end to it.
LOL, do people really do that?
I think we need a clarification here from the master as I don't believe he would offer the next dealer a slightly higher amount. I believe it would be the same amount and eventually, he would up his offer.
But I don't believe it's ever gone that far. If the homework is done properly, it shouldn't take more than a couple dealers.
Can we have a clarification here Oh Master?
On our last two purchases, they accepted our first offer. Of course, we had to first leave, but they followed us into the parking lot and said our offer was OK.
When we bought our 1997 Accord we had to try two dealers and it took three dealers when we got our 1999 Accord. We increased the price $100 when we went to a different dealer.
It took three dealers when we got a 1995 Accord (the birth of the Bobst method) and two dealers when we bought a 1995 Civic for our daughter.
Paperback? You gotta be kidding! I plan to engrave it on gold tablets like Book of Mormon.
Ah...huh, so Moo has been out there trying his method.
I wonder how many times he's tried this?
Oh...if he would only confess. Possibly when he found out that his method doesn't work, he decided to sell cars and not buy them. :surprise:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Just raise your offer at the store you are already at!
Chances are, they are the ones who spent the most time, test driving etc. Why hop from store to store, raising your offer every time??
But, we have had this argument for years.
How do I determine my offer has been refused? As far as I know, there is only one way - leave and see if they change their mind.
On our last three purchases, they said they would not accept our offer. When we left, they changed their mind and accepted our offer.
That is why we only make one offer when we visit the car dealer.
Some may not like it, but it works. Plus which, it saves lots of time. Plus which, the buyer remains in control.
Oh my.
He (or she) who cares least always wins the negotiation. I have money. You have a car.
How do I determine my offer has been refused? As far as I know, there is only one way - leave and see if they change their mind.
In using your method, I would also give them one business day after the offer was made to the circle of dealers before raising the offer for the next pass to be as positive as possible that the current offer has been refused.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I, personnally, would modify it slightly (call it Bobst 2.0). If I thought my offer was reasonable, I would try the same offer at the 2nd, and maybe 3rd dealer. If none of them took it, then I would up it.
Of course, that would assume I have the time to dealer hop (although I guess it doesn't take long at each one..), and more important, there were enough dealers to visit and they all had the right car!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
You're lucky. I have over 140K on my Elantra which means they would take over $77k of the MSRP of my car making it worth about minus $62K. :surprise: Talk about being upside down on a car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Ok but what did you shot on the back nine?
ducking and running.
My wife and I are both glad to see that Spring is here.
Good send some here, we are supposed to get snow.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have done that but not in buying a car. Its usually when the counter offer is way out of line. It can give the message that you know they are way high and you can play the game. Usually at the time I know that no deal can be done.
It has worked once.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well, thats the price you have to pay when you want to wear the wheels off your cars. :P
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Just raise your offer at the store you are already at!
But Bobst is making a very well-educated offer, one that is probably completely doable for the dealer. Why should he reward that dealer for turning down a doable deal and attempting to squeeze him for more money?
I think the Bobst method is genius, and I applied it in part when buying this past Dec. That said, a caveat for newcomers who are learning about the Bobst method for the first time -- he always pays cash and he never has a trade. If you're financing and/or trading, you may end up frustrating yourself and the dealer(s) if you attempt to use the Bobst method in its purest form.
The bottom line is that the ability to walk away gives the customer an awful lot of leverage in the transaction.
Presumably, Bob paid for the gold with the money he saved using his method so it appears to have merit.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
I used what I call the Bobst, Modified method when I bought the wife a Forester in December because we had a trade. I told them what I would pay Delivered, OTD, including the trade.
I told them to let me know if they could do the deal. Four hours later they called and said it was doable. We bought the car a few days later.
2025 Forester Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport
Other funny sitautions I encountered:
Lady gets into a Civic, and right away starts making sour faces how she can't fit in, and it's a bad design, and her knee hits the steering wheel and so on. So pessimistic. So after she complains to her husband, I interrupt her, and lower the driver's seat she's sitting in, and voila!!!! she can get in and out easy! She felt a little embarassed by it.
Question on the fuel cell vehicles, as to where they are and why they're not here at the show. I tell them they're in the lab getting researched and developed.
Another looker asked me why the fuel cell car is not for sale yet. I told him cause you need a network of hydrogen stations to fill one up. How you gonna drive one if you can't fill it up?
I was joking around with a coworker at the show, asking him dumb questions: I need to have a Ridgeline that runs on hybrid power and gets 100mpg, do you have something similar? His answer to me was: What are you doing here at the auto show? You want to save on gas you go buy yourself a bicycle, and you won't spend anything on gas. Why are you here looking at cars? :P :P
Last but not least, this is a comment you hear at the autshows, in magazine letters sections, and in showrooms:
If Honda (or insert any brand name here) comes out with a so and so (typically a car or configuration not being offered at the moment), then I would be the first in line to buy one!!
Right right, I'm sure you would.....
Maybe 1% of those that say that are true to their word, the rest are just strokes.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
j/k
Very few customers pay cash and have no trade.
Most customers could do that if they want to. Just sell your car yourself and get your financing from a bank yourself.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you are going to be financing all/any of the new vehicle, you are foolish to not line up your own financing before entering into the dealership for negotiations. I did this for my past 2 vehicle purchases, and offered the dealer the opportunity to beat my rate (which both dealers were able to do). I am certain that by having walked in to the dealership with a pretty good rate in hand, I was able to get a better rate than I would have just solely relying on dealer financing.
LOL, do people really do that?
Ya, we have had it happen when we have accepted a persons first offer. I guess they fear that since we said OK they have offered to much.
I have it happen when I get people in my office and they have negotiated a price but never stopped to consider the payment associated with the price. They wanted a $25K difference but also wanted the payment to be $350. This usually happens with people who just pull numbers out of the air and really can't justify them.
For instance if we are at $25500 they offer $25000, if it would have been $26500 they would have offered $26000. I guess it is the "round down" method of negotiating
For me, it isn't worth playing this game.
I don't know if you're saying this in the same way that I've heard down south here, but that is one of the funniest words to say to customers. They babble along about something and you sit across the desk saying, "Right, right, right."
Psycho salesman said that a few times when I was near him and his customer. Hysterical to hear. I don't know if it translates to the page though. :P
-Moo
You're absolutely right. But if the homework is done correctly, then your price is near the lower end of what they need to make the deal and in every case I've heard of, there was some back and forth where the dealer tried to bump it up. Politely but firmly state the offer is firm and after a few times of going back and forth or even getting up to walk out, the dealer relents and you're driving away in the new vehicle.
But, depending on my mood, and how I feel about the original dealer, I may actually sit down with the original dealer for a little "give and take" (very little).
Some caveats, though...
--if the first dealer counters my offer with something way above my original offer, I'm walking. We won't be doing business. I'm confident in my numbers. I don 't need, nor want to get into a protracted negotiation session.
--if I walk, they follow and accept my original offer, I may or may not make the deal. What makes my number more pallatble now, than it was 5 minutes, ago? Better throw in some freebies to get me back into the store to close the deal.
--if the salesperson follows after rejecting my initial offer, is close with the "coutner offer" (and I mean real close), but offers something else of value to the deal that justifies the "bump", I may walk back into the dealership to make the deal.
All that said, I qualify for GMs employee prices (including Saabs and Saturns). Those are great and always well under invoice. I used to qualify for Ford's A plan (employee pricing). Again, great prices. My sister, who worked for Ford took their buyout package. I don't know if part of the package includes letting family members buy at employee prices still, though. But, that included buying Mazdas, Jaguars, Volvos, Land Rovers at employee discounts, too (I guess there will be no Aston Martins for me, however).
Nissan/Infiniti, I get supplier pricing. That leaves Chrysler, Mecedes, BMW, Lexus, Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Acura, Rolls Royce, Mini, any Italian brand, as among the brands I have to buy in the traditional way.