Stories from the Sales Frontlines

mako1a

I see a Suzuki Vinson on display. Price is $4999. I look at it. Correct trans, correct color so I go home and get $5k. I go back to buy. He wants $800 for tax and assembly. Total $5800. OK so I say I have an older one to trade worth $800-900. He says if there's a trade-in he has to go back to the original price of $6400. I say there are 2 individual deals here. You buy my old one and I buy your new one. He still wants $6400 while I'm standing in front of the $4999 sign. I point at his sign. I say if you buy mine today for $800 I'll buy yours using the $5k in my pocket and the $800 you give me. He again tries to jack the price and combine the sales. He says are you ready for us to build your bike? I said I'm wondering how you're still in business. Goodbye.

cotmc

"While bigman35 (LOL) may well be a troll, his post is actually quite relevant. I guess it really confirms what many people here have been saying about the attitude of their customers. Whether he is representative of the majority of customers I don't know..."

Based on the new evidence provided here by Kirstie, I vote that nothing much has been confirmed about the attitude of customers! In other words, the debate is still ongoing! :P

Bigman is one of the other sales guys here...

Maybe we should discuss the attitude of sales people, instead?

bigman35

no more posts from the bigman i will leave the forum these posts in no way refelct the opinions of greanpea he is innocent

esteeze

Just curious if any of the shoppers out there went to three dealerships and the last dealer treated them the best and gave the most information would you pay $500- $1000 more than the two previous dealers?

As a current car buyer in the market, I'll give my $.02:

Professionalism and the overall perceived quality of the dealership are almost as important to me as the price. My thinking on this subject is that the "better" dealerships are going to have taken better care of their inventory, and will have better processes for dealing with potential issues (problems with the car, disputes, etc) later on.

I've visited all the local dealerships looking for my car of interest, and I sort of ranked them into "tiers" based on the quality of the overall experience I had during the initial visits. Those higher tier dealerships are those which I'm planning to approach first with an offer for the vehicle; in other words, they will have the first shot at my business. "Word of mouth" feedback from friends/co-workers plays a big factor in my rankings too.

We'll see how it goes... I haven't finished the process yet.

Jeff

audia8q

Another factor that I'm sure happens every day is that some people get tired of car shopping. They get to the point where they don't want to go to another dealership, even if they are paying a little more money for less customer service....

I agree. alot of folks shop themselves into confusion and just give up and buy from the last stop.
When a customer comes in and says "this is my first stop" its the kiss of death...It's basically telling the salesperson I'm going to use your information to buy somewhere else.

greanpea68

I agree with Audia8q with it is like a kiss of death...

That being said it is one of the reasons people get lowballed, With out low balling some salespeople believe you'll never come back....

But that being said some people habe been low balled by 500 -1000 dollars and thats when I know I have to move someone that much money... Its not a fun game when that happens

kyfdx

Good service should be a given.. Why would the good salesperson need to charge more?

I think this is a false premise.. The jerks shouldn't be able to cut a better deal than the rest of them. What is it about their business model that is different?

So.. be a nice guy.. but compete on price.. Everybody wins.. (except the jerks).

esteeze

The jerks shouldn't be able to cut a better deal than the rest of them. What is it about their business model that is different?

Well said. Taking that concept further... (and perhaps, with a rather idealist slant)

As customers, we are in a position where we can give feedback (via our wallets) on what sort of people are allowed to sell us products that impact our budgets and lives so greatly.

Good business practices do not have to cost more, and bad practices do not necessarily have to prosper in the industry.

(stepping down from soapbox now)

dino001

But that's different. Lowballing means there is no $500-1000 to save, the offer is not real. Your initial question was if I would pay $500-$1000 more if you were a nice guy - and the answer is no.

But if I knew for sure that the "waiting" $500-1000 offer was a lowball and the real savings are considerably less, then it's a different story.

Now, for less informed person, the only real way to check if it indeed is a lowball, is to go there and check. The best you can do in that situation is to say "Sir - I know you won't believe me now, but this is a lowball and you're probably going to be hit with several markups (give him a list). We don't do that here - my offer is ... and it is real. It will be waiting for you as long as the car is still here. If it's sold and we have same config on the lot, it will still valid. I hope you'll remember who gave you this offer first and how they came about it."

You may be amazed how many people may end up coming back if your offer was real and competitive. Granted many will still buy "somewhere else", but I believe over time your model will work, as it did for several internet managers posting here.

greanpea68

I'm not saying that I do that I'm just saying it happens a lot in the area I work in. I fyou got told you could buy a car 500 - 1000 behind hold back then I have to give you the correct info and let it be at that...

but sometimes when someone says that this is the first place indicating they are going to numerous places then thats when something like that happens...

but then you also might not have figured in a trade at this point and you'll do that when they come back. at that point someone might give you 2000 less than what your trade is really worth

greanpea68

This is just another variable of paying 500 -1000 more...

I think everyone will agree that there are a lot variables when buying a car.....

jmonroe

no more posts from the bigman i will leave the forum ...

Promise?

Darn...it didn't take long for this one to bail out!!

jmonroe

stewardrobbins

Do sales managers and salesman give better deals to customers who are especially polite, pleasant, and easy to deal with?

joel0622

A smart consumer knows when they are presented with a good deal. A flying by the seat of there pants cluless consumer does not. They are the ones who think we have $4500 mark up in a Focus. They are also the ones that usually end up with the deals the deserve

british_rover

Short answer yes.

jmonroe

When a customer comes in and says "this is my first stop" its the kiss of death...It's basically telling the salesperson I'm going to use your information to buy somewhere else.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, for every time you're the first one, there is the time where you are the last one. So, in the end it's a wash.

Unfortunately, for you, this is the nature of the sales biz. If it wasn't like this, there would be one guy that sold all the cars. This would not be good at all for the buyer. :sick:

The word that best describes this is, "COMPETITION"

jmonroe

joel0622

I've said this before and I'll say it again, for every time you're the first one, there is the time where you are the last one. So, in the end it's a wash.

I tend to disagree with that theory. The reason why is that the average sales person has a closing ratio of around 25% on customers written. hence the you have to write up 4 to get 1 theory.

So if that is the average 3 out of 4 are getting away, so for every 4 shoppers I write and give a price to I am only getting one, some one else is getting the other 3.

volvomax

Considering that, in the real world the "jerks" sell most of the cars the feedback that customers leave is that they will put up w/ almost anything to get what they percieve to be a deal.

As long as customer tolerate the jerks, there is no reason for them to change their business model.

british_rover

Yup there are three specific dealers that I run up against from time to time that fit the "Jerk" Mold at least somewhat.

I constantly get customer service complaints from people that buy or service cars there. I also lose deals to those dealership from time to time because they will offer up what appear to be better "Deals."

People put up with them because they think they are saving money.

dino001

The theory still makes sense. If all those customers go to four places, there is an equal (more-less) chance it's their first, second, third or fourth stop. Thus, 25% closing ratio and 25% of first stoppers. One to one

thenebean

You may be amazed how many people may end up coming back if your offer was real and competitive. Granted many will still buy "somewhere else", but I believe over time your model will work, as it did for several internet managers posting here.

most of the people who leave don't come back - because if your deal truly was the lowest, it now becomes a pride thing - especially if the person was any sort of confrontational, etc. very few come back, because they get tired of shopping, tired of driving around, and tired of dealing with the process. don't confuse what you (or others here on edmunds) would do, with what the general public does...

my two cents...

-thene

biancar

"in the real world the "jerks" sell most of the cars"

How in the world do you know this? Or do you just classify everyone who's not you as a "jerk?" I just don't find it credible that someone who's truly a jerk would stay in business very long.

Re coming back to first place a shopper goes to - a few years ago when I was shopping for an SUV I stopped at the Jeep place as one of the first places. Got a firm price on a Grand Cherokee. Seemed good but I was new to SUVs and wanted to test-drive a few others. Went to Nissan and tried the Pathfinder, Toyota for the Highlander (too big) and RAV (too small), Subaru for the Forester, Chevy Blazer (yuck!), and I think maybe a couple others. Decided the Grand Cherokee fit my needs best so went back there the next day and bought it. I think the sales guy was surprised we were back, but he honored the price he offered.

If he hadn't given us a price, we probably would have continued to look elsewhere. An honest, up-front salesman shouldn't be afraid of giving a price. If he's afraid someone else will beat that price, well, that tells the customer something about how good the price really is. Probably not the best you can do. I wouldn't go back again to someone playing that sort of "come back when you're really ready to buy" sort of nonsense. Give me a price and I'll have a basis for making the decision.

greanpea68

There are not a lot of jerks left out there. You can't really be a jerk in a new car business because your CSI would reflect and if you had a few bad months of bad CSI you could lose your job.

On being low balled... Your probrably not going to be low balled when looking at different models it's when you say I'm going to 5 nissan stores and who ever gives me the lowest price I'll buy from that you might get low balled.

Keep in mind it is all a mind set. Mind set being how you feel about your deal.

jmonroe

So if that is the average 3 out of 4 are getting away, so for every 4 shoppers I write and give a price to I am only getting one, some one else is getting the other 3.

You’re making the assumption that the 3 who are getting away came to you first. The law of averages/statistics says that of the 3 who got away; they have to be evenly distributed among the first, second, and third buyer to show up at your store. If this weren’t the case every dealer is an anomaly and they all had the misfortune of locating their store in the wrong part of town.

Using your argument there will have to be a new statistics law written just for the car sales biz. :surprise:

jmonroe

jipster

greenpea & joel, I don't think people are interested in "one thing and one thing only"... that being price. I think people are interested in many things (price, sales service, the correct vehicle & options, convienence, follow up & service dept.). That price would be at the top of the list should not be a reflection of consumer greed, but consumer intelligence and common sense.

I also don't think we should paint dealerships as either good service and higher price, or ones that verbally abuse you the moment you step on their lot... but give you a better price. As I've said before, most people expect price and service, and I think that is what most dealerships cater to. It's not an either or proposition.

But, come on green pea... paying $1,000 more for being treated right? I'll save the $1,000, get treated right, and get the car I want at a great price. This is what a "Smart Shopper" does.

joel0622

Jipster, like I said, I am just going off what people here said. It may not be my opinion, its just what the majority of the people here replied when I asked the question in another thread.

I will continue to do business the same way I have for 15 years regardless. It works for me and it is simple, two rules.

1. Treat people the way you would like to be treated

2. Don't ever take it personal.

joel0622

All I know is that when I sold allot more price shoppers left and never came back then showed up shopping and bought.

If for every shopper that left I got a sale in return I would have been pulling 20-30 units a month easy. That is twice what I was selling in the mid and late 90's

greanpea68

Jipster...

All right, most people aren't going to pay $1000 more I was just using it as a example.And if you were going to pay me the same or more it doesn't matter. As long as I write a deal is all that matters. Lets say you went out shopping for a altima... The first place you go to you say "I want your best price" you know what car you want and you tell him. He drives you in the car and you come back to the dealer and you sit at the table and after a hour of negotiating you end up at invoice.

You go to the next dealer and the experience is different. You are having a good time. You get a top notch presentation of the vehicle and maybe learn something you didn't know. You were shown a team atmosphere with service dept. Were you will helped with transportation from courtesy cars to shuttles, have your car washed.

Negotiated the deal in 10 minutes and the second dealer was 250 higher you wouldn't buy.

Maybe the second dealer would have to go to your price... but in the end it doesn't matter because you would probrably endedup buying at the second dealer.

Jipster I'll agree with you that you might not but the type of buyer you represent is only one piece pf the pie.

And I wanted to join these message boards. I can't even remember what I typed in this little box.

volvomax

I know this because I've been in the car business for 15 years and I've seen it happen everyday.

Fact is, y'all know who the jerk dealers are.
They are the ones that run screamer ads, $500 minimum for your trade, special buyers standing by etc.
They are the liner closer stores.

I'm glad that you went back to the Jeep dealer.
MOST customers would have shopped his number and bought where it was $200 cheaper.

What you have to remember is that THERE IS NO BEST PRICE.
ANY deal can be beaten by a couple hundred dollars.

volvomax

Don't fall into that CSI trap.
Some of the worst jerk dealers have the best CSI scores.
They have dept's that handle CSI.
Give away a free oil change for a perfect score etc.

british_rover

Yup CSI can be manuiplated and people aren't caught nearly as often as they should be.

cotmc

A smart consumer knows when they are presented with a good deal.

Well, yeah..., but this is another generalization, just like "A smart consumer knows when he is presented with a lousy deal."

Example: Sometimes a manufacturer introduces new factory incentives to the dealers, or "marketing support", without this information published for the consumer. I think Edmunds does a fairly good job of listing most of the incentives, but I'm guessing they don't catch every incentive, and I'm also guessing there is some time lag involved.

A new Explorer at factory invoice might seem like a good deal, but if Ford is now providing $1500 incentive money back to the dealer for each unit sold, then it is actually a lousy deal for the consumer.

cotmc

"... they get tired of shopping, tired of driving around, and tired of dealing with the process. don't confuse what you (or others here on edmunds) would do, with what the general public does... my two cents..."

Excellent point! I think you provided more than our money's worth on that one.

jmonroe

What you have to remember is that THERE IS NO BEST PRICE.
ANY deal can be beaten by a couple hundred dollars.

I think almost every buyer knows this and because of this you have to deal with "grinders". Some people only want the best price and are willing to shop until they drop to get it but since you've been in the biz as long as you have I don't have to tell you that.

I have to think that an experienced salesperson can tell who the "grinders" are after a few minutes and would get rid of them and move onto the next buyer.

jmonroe

volvomax

Most experienced guys will drop the grinders, some won't.

Alot of the times a grinder will end up in one of the jerk stores sparring w/ the desk manager.

joel0622

$1500 incentive money back to the dealer for each unit sold, then it is actually a lousy deal for the consumer

No its not. Thats the dealers money. If he wants to pass it on to the consumer then that is his business on a dealer by dealer basis, but buying at invoice less rebates is still a good deal.

Besides, a smart consumer would have known the money was available.

joel0622

Most experienced guys will drop the grinders, some won't.


If they are polite or friendly and I don't have a profit paying customer waiting I will hang in there with them. If they are A-Holes or loud mouths I give them about 5 minutes to settle down then I send them packing

dino001

No its not. Thats the dealers money.

Yes it is - but the mfr did not give it from goodness of their hearts, did they. The product is likely not selling at necessary numbers. Perhaps the pricing wasn't right, but it's too early to admit it publicly (by customer rebate).

So, even though it technically is your money, it's actually given to increase your pricing flexibility - thus it's implied you will need to to share it with customer if you want to meet your sales quota. Of course if you believe you can sell enough units keeping that, more power to you - but I doubt it - those guys upstairs already decided the original price would not cut it.

user777

stupid question. to gauge the seriousness of the person that comes in and says "this is the first place i've stopped", wouldn't it be good to get the consumer to provide you with the price they are willing to sign to right now?

i think if the consumer speaks first and says: i want to buy the car today, and i'm willing to offer X, and the salesman says that's possible, you got a deal. if the customer says Y, and Y is not possible, the salesman can counter with I can do Z.

how optimal is Z? well, i don't know, but someone who understands the going prices of the cars, someone who has done their homework, should know if Z is good or not (yes/no)?

that should engage them and the deal is probable.

if the person isn't calibrated, i suppose you can always tell them, go to some other dealerships and see how good this Z price is. tell them to come back, that you'll honor Z.

what am I missing?

you think someone will feel like they made a killing, if they can get the vehicle Z-$50 and they'll shop several lots for it?

that is wacked if true. i highly doubt things are that obvious.

when i go to a dealership and i've done my work, and i'm in the pipe with a calibrated expectation, and a salesman is testing me to see if they can soak me, trust me, i know within a few minutes and i waste no time leaving.

but, if we are within 500-1K, i'm prepped to dial in. i'd be stupid to walk.

i was trying to make a point in a prior post. if someone grinds to then finance for more than 3yrs - that's equally wacked.

audia8q

most of the people who leave don't come back - because if your deal truly was the lowest, it now becomes a pride thing - especially if the person was any sort of confrontational, etc

Very true...most folks who arent in the biz don't realize that "ego and pride" plays a huge role in the car sales process. For some buyers ego/pride is more important than the car.

user777

2nd stupid question. if it's truly the dealer's money, why is it being advertised to the consumer?

bobst

What is "liner closer store" and why do some people think that kind of store is not a good place to shop?

bobst

"if we are within 500-1K, i'm prepped to dial in. i'd be stupid to walk."

OK User, say you offer a price X. The sales person counters with X+$900. You sit there and negotiate for an hour and get them down to X+$200. Then you buy the car.

In my case, I offer X, they counter with X+$900, and I head for the door. As has often happened, they suddenly change their mind and accept my offer.

So I have saved $200 and an hour of my time by walking out. Doesn't seem so stupid to me.

british_rover

Wow so 1,500 dollars gross profit on a 30-40k investment is too much?

Man I am glad I don't deal with mass market cars.

dino001

Dealer incentives, also known as mfr support are not advertised anywhere. They are "provided" to consumer by thrid-parties, who have access to insider publications.

joel0622

The product is likely not selling at necessary numbers. Perhaps the pricing wasn't right, but it's too early to admit it publicly (by customer rebate).

Or is it motivation for the dealers to crank out more units at a higher profit and to help off set the money lost from computer/internet shoppers?

dino001

You tell me. Try selling me (and others) for price that does not account for that $1500 and see what happens.

If you meet your gross and unit quota - power to you. If not - well, tough luck. If meanwhile I find a guy willing to share his $1500, guess who wins I agree - money is yours - but to get it you have to actually make ME pay it.

greanpea68

Just reading a few posts and all I can think of is the person who comes in and grinds all the way down to triple net is ussually a bad survey and they still don't act like they got a good deal...

Then there is the person who comes in and buys the same car for $2500 profit and the person is happier than ever and all exellents on the survey...

I guess thats why this business is a matter of averages...

volvomax

I'm surprised you don't know.
A liner closer store is where the salesperson(the liner) shows you a car, gets you in the building, writes you up and takes a stab at selling you.
If he fails, then a desk manager(the closer) steps in.

joel0622

Dino, if a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to see it fall does it still make a sound?

Same thing with dealer cash, if you don't know there is a dealer incentive available does it change your perception of the deal you got?

How can it? you didn't know it was there to get in the first place :confuse: