Stories from the Sales Frontlines

kyfdx

I try to stay out of the Prices Paid Forums as much as possible.

You keep saying that.... and, yet...

greanpea68

I had a lady come in with a print out of someone who purchased the new Altima coupe MSRP $31,500 for $28,000. That is below invoice for one. But the best part is no one has them. The customer said this person said they this much on Edmunds I want the same deal! I offered a couple hundred off. she refused and walked away. These coupes are limited right now and we can't keep them on the lot. Some guys at other dealers are telling me they are getting $500 over MSRP.

All i could say is you can't believe everything everyone writes on line.

greanpea68

I'm sure there are some who forget to mention the trade, or it might have been a demo, or it was the ugliest color combination. I'm not saying that everyone on there is 100% honest, but most are.

That's the thing if people are getting those deals the reasons you just mentioned are the main reasons someone would get that deal.

8sparkplugs

A little over 2 yrs ago my mother-in-law wanted a new CRV. I told her I would get an internet offer for her. I live within 2 hrs of Houston and San Antonio and knew what they were advertising them for in the paper. I only contacted one dealership and their offer was $1000-$1200 better than I expected. It took her a couple of weeks to get there to finalize the deal. It happened to be Memorial Day weekend 05'. She got the vehicle she wanted at a price that I still to this day don't understand how it was that low, and 1.9% financing for 36 months. I was worried all of the way up to the dealership because I thought it was to good to be true. Best car buying experience I've ever been apart of. No surprizes, no extra fees. We were in and out of there in less than a hour. Her price was lower than anything I saw posted in the prices paid forum.

greanpea68

. She got the vehicle she wanted at a price that I still to this day don't understand how it was that low, and 1.9% financing for 36 months. I was worried all of the way up to the dealership because I thought it was to good to be true.

Honda might have had some retro money on the car which means if the dealer sold 60 crv's they would get $500 a car retro money which would equal $30,000. If they 59 CRV's they get nothing.

isellhondas

It's tough, especially when I have to pick my words so carefully as to not incur the wrath of a host when I call someone out for embellishing what they really paid.

Puffery is a wonderful thing along with oneupmanship!

mikefm58

It happened to be Memorial Day weekend 05'.

Last day of the month. I've never tried that to get a killer deal, but I may next time I'm in the market.

tidester

i've challenged some of them to post their bill of sale

Could it just be that very few people have scanners?

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

im_brentwood

But many have digital cameras.

Irrespective, I've seen people lie on these forums before and been able to prove it but kept my big mouth shut.

I recall someone posting that they bought an Ultra-Luxury LS430 when they first came out for $4,000+ under sticker. They claimed to have bought it from a dealer where the GSM was a friend of mine, so I asked him about the deal.. he laughed and said, "Well, first of all we haven't delivered a Crystal White Ultra Lux with chromes, and secondly I never heard of the guy, dunno about you but unless things changed, we're still getting full pop for em and we stopped taking deposits were so backed up on em"

Hmmmm.... :P

nj2pa2nc

the dealer near us in wilmington NC has two altima coupes-both red-one with light interior and nav and the other with blackinterior and no nav. (they had that one almost a month now). they both have automatic and we want manual. they informed us that would be hard to find and we said we do not want automatic so no sale.i must say they are awesome looking cars

jipster

I've seen people lie on these forums before and been able to prove it...

Don't know what an anonymous poster has to gain by saying he paid less for a car than others. I suspect a lot of those posts are from salesmen trying to drum up business for their dealership, as the dealership can be mentioned but not the salesman, who are usually referred to as being "great". Usually the "one and done" posts are questionable.

8sparkplugs

I don't want to defend anyone making false claims, but I wouldn't care enough about it to go through the hassle, just to show you the bill of sale. Most people don't have a copy of the bill of sale on their computer.

british_rover

That doesn't make any sense. Why would they post information about a fake IMPOSSIBLE deal to generate business.

People would come in asking for a deal that can't be done and you would start off even further behind the 8 ball with the customer.

madmanmoo

It's me posting again. You can call me Captain Chaos. I like to run through forums and disrupt the customers' ideas of how business is done.

Also, my boy wonder Calamity Kid is by my side making sure that no consumer leaves happy. It's wonderful stuff messing with people in the forums.

-Moo :P

editor2

If that were so, there wouldn't be all sorts of advertising that is actually lowball pitching to attract attention and to get people into showrooms. Why would that not be a strategy in forums? I imagine that drumming up customer interest is key, even if people show up with unrealistic beginning points.

jipster

Why would they post information about a fake IMPOSSIBLE deal to generate business.

I never wrote anything about salesmen (fakers) posting "IMPOSSIBLE" numbers. I wrote the fake poster could post he is paying "less than others". Obviously, if people are seeing dealership XYZ selling vehicles at a lower price "than others"... they may want to give them a try.

british_rover

You were responding directly to brentwood who said...

recall someone posting that they bought an Ultra-Luxury LS430 when they first came out for $4,000+ under sticker. They claimed to have bought it from a dealer where the GSM was a friend of mine, so I asked him about the deal.. he laughed and said, "Well, first of all we haven't delivered a Crystal White Ultra Lux with chromes, and secondly I never heard of the guy, dunno about you but unless things changed, we're still getting full pop for em and we stopped taking deposits were so backed up on em"

which was an impossible deal. Then you said...

Don't know what an anonymous poster has to gain by saying he paid less for a car than others. I suspect a lot of those posts are from salesmen trying to drum up business for their dealership

I just filled in the blanks.

jipster

The part of brentwoods post I had in italics at the top of my original post, which you left out, is what I was responding to. i.e I've seen people lie on these forums before and been able to prove it. At which point I took it in the direction that given dealerships past reputation, it wouldn't be surprising for them to drum up a bit of business for their dealership by posting "lower than others" numbers.

epiney

I don't want to defend anyone making false claims, but I wouldn't care enough about it to go through the hassle, just to show you the bill of sale

I would agree with that. I think some leave off fees such as doc and others. I think it makes them feel better about their deal relative to others. Not the purpose of those prices paid forums, but it is what it is.

jmonroe

I think some leave off fees such as doc and others.

I’m sure that’s the case a lot of the times but if you want to nail them down, try this:

When going to that board, if you want to carry on a discussion just ask the poster what their OTD price was. This should make them go back to look at their bill-of-sale. If they truly got a good deal fine but if you hear them GULP, then you will have your answer. :surprise:

I think it makes them feel better about their deal relative to others.

Ya think...but it makes me feel terrible just the same. That’s why I’m not reading that board anymore. I know that Edmunds tried to create a good thing for us buyers but a lot of those posters can sure take the wind out of your sails sales.

jmonroe

kyfdx

What I can't figure out? If they are all liars, why are all of you still reading the posts? :surprise:

The Prices Paid forums are a resource that you just can't get anywhere else, if you are shopping for a car. Is every post a good one? Of course not.. But, it doesn't take much of an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Could salespeople hold more gross, if their customers weren't educated about actual sale prices? I'm sure they could... Are you sure that isn't what bothers you the most?

regards,
kyfdx
Host-Prices Paid Forums

nthe

"Could salespeople hold more gross, if their customers weren't educated about actual sale prices? I'm sure they could... Are you sure that isn't what bothers you the most? "

and that is what we are talking about, educating people about ACTUAL sale prices. there are only a couple new cars at my dealership where i could make more than a mini if they bought at sticker or at 1000 below invoice. i just don't want to lose a deal cause one of my customers saw someone posting a complete lie about what they paid. if they did in fact pay the price they claim, then it takes very little for just one of them to back it up with some proof, yet NOT ONE of them can.

joel0622

Any info is good as long as it is good info. I personally have never in my entire career have a customer tell me they found a price on Edmonds so it really does not bother me. I do wish that more people would use that TMV thing though. I ran about 5 different Ford models through it and all of them came up with a profit on there TMV

kyfdx

I've never seen anyone post a deal sheet in the forums.. Dealer or customer. What you ask is not realistic.

Unless you want to scan the paperwork from your last sale and post it here?

Read back a few dozen posts, and you'll see where a Toyota sale was agreed to at a $1500 gross loss. Just because your dealership won't take a deal, doesn't mean someone else won't.

Low prices happen every day... If you can't compete, then so be it. I think you've made my point.

regards,
kyfdx
visiting host

jipster

and that is what we are talking about, education people about ACTUAL sale prices.

Ya know... I rarely read what you salesguys are selling cars for in relation to invoice. Care to educate us?

im_brentwood

I think that quite a few people have... but it's funny, whenever I did that, I usually get attacked, no matter how accurate the info.

I remember posting that, via "cross-sell" reports, what average sales prices of certain cars were in comparison to TMV and what's posted online and having people jump down my throat.

Eh, OK.. so I won't post that info anymore.

im_brentwood

And the simple truth is, I believe about half the prices on here. I can't remember how many times I've seen people claim that they had dealers fighting to sell them a car for $300-500 under when nobody is selling them for that. Here's an example...

All I keep reading on the CTS board is people getting brand new 08 CTSs for $2k-2,500 off.

Wow. Every dealer I know can't keep them on the ground and is selling them for full sticker, usually before the cars arrive.

And yet people from Edmunds have no problem getting them for a few bucks over tissue.

So someone's going to post about "Oh, if you guys can't compete someone will". Yes, some idiot might be discounting them, but it's far from the norm. Simple fact is, if you are a Cadillac dealer at the moment and are dscounting the new CTS, you are an idiot, or at least a terrible businessperson.

Call me crazy.. I believe that any business should sell their product at a price that the market will bear, selling a hot product for quite a bit less is called stupidity.

kyfdx

People seem to have the same reaction to Edmunds TMV...

They seem to be unable to parse the difference between a good deal, and an average deal.

Of course, most buyers hope to get a deal that is better than average...

joel0622

Ya know... I rarely read what you salesguys are selling cars for in relation to invoice. Care to educate us?

Just check out the prices paid forum, there is great info there.

This conversation has now officially come full circle.

im_brentwood

OK,

Here's an amusing one... I send a car that I have to an auction up here.. it's a an 02 X5, it's had bodywork, doesn't have unibody but I call unibody just to be safe because it was wrecked and we did fix it. Car has clean title history.

So It runs, does ALL the money, and it sells.

TO a driver. I kid you not, some clown had a buddy of his in the sale.. got him a driver badge, and the guy bids on it and wins it.

His buddy, the dealer, doesn't have the money to pay for it.

Isn't this fun! Oh, and there were people ALL over it and it brought ALL the money too... :mad:

mackabee

I don't think Lexus dealers need any fake posters to drum up business.

Mack

joel0622

So does something like that go to the arbitrator at the sale or are you just SOL?

im_brentwood

As far as I am concerned, they sold the car.. it's their problem getting the $$.

british_rover

I learned the first time I ever went to any kind of auction keep your hands in your pockets.

kyfdx

My uncle used to work for the state.. Recording livestock prices.

When I was five, I bought a couple of cows... unbeknownst to him... :surprise:

(Hey, everyone else was raising their hand)

british_rover

Back in college when I was running that shop me and a guy I worked with used to go to one of those public auctions.

You know the ones with the questionable, at best, cars that real dealers didn't want.

We would buy a couple of cars for 5,00 to a 1,000 dollars, fix them up at our shop in the evening then sell them in the classifieds.

Probably skirting the definition of a curb stoner then but we were 18 and 19 years old and didn't even know what that was.

We never got burned doing this until one time we took my friends grandfather with us. He bought a 1982 Oldsmobile Toronado by accident :surprise:

It was a POS but we were stuck with it now. We fixed it up and and managed to get out of it almost sideways. I think we ended up losing 300 bucks or something.

hansienna

i have had problems with TMV because of the write up on the long term 1999 Odyssey which was sold for less than Edmunds TMV but when depreciation was computed, the Edmunds TMV for the used 1999 Ody was subtracted from MSRP which gave an erroneous depreciation since Edmunds paid ABOVE MSRP for their 1999 Ody and sold the Ody for LESS than the TMV. :confuse:

fighter1

For a couple hundreds of lousy bucks I will spend weeks e-mailing and calling dealer after dealer and surprise-surprise I will have a great deal. I don't want to spend MY money on new dealer's pool at backyard:-)

joel0622

You need a hobby. Ever thought of putting a pool in?

im_brentwood

TMV is not an end-all, be-all and in some cases it is grotesquely inaccurate.

Look up a 1991 BMW M3.. $2,500 trade-in? I can't buy a totalled one at a salvage auction for that.

roadburner

Look up a 1991 BMW M3.. $2,500 trade-in?

Right. Anybody got a clean one they'd like to sell? I'll give you $7500!

cdnpinhead

". . .in their zeal to save a lousy buck. . ."

Saving a lousy buck is pretty much the theme of that "Millionaire Next Door" book &, if I'm not mistaken, the goal of most dealerships.

Or perhaps not. I'm here to learn.

im_brentwood

I had one I wanted about 4 times your offer for

im_brentwood

isell is right.

Do I begrudge anyone for wanting to buy a car as cheap as realistically possible? No. In fact, if you walk into a dealership, look at the sticker and say "OK" then you're generally an idiot.

However, if you, like some people, spend hours and hours going nuts over $100-200, then you are probably a fool unless 10 hours of your time is worth less than $100-200. Could I have saved $200-300 or whatever last time I bought a new car? Yes. Was it worth me going nuts over? No.

I bought my last new car in 15 minutes and got a great price. My time is indeed valuable.

epiney

if you, like some people, spend hours and hours going nuts over $100-200, then you are probably a fool

If it's only a lousy $100-200, then why don't you guys just take the deal and sell them a car? Why do you try bumping people for $200?

joel0622

If it's only a lousy $100-200, then why don't you guys just take the deal and sell them a car? Why do you try bumping people for $200?

Because to the consumer it is giving up $200 one time every 3-5 years. For me if I give up $200 on every deal then I have gave away $32K in a months time

roadburner

I had one I wanted about 4 times your offer for

You know, if I ever win Powerball or one of those other sweepstakes, I'm going to build a twelve car garage(6 bays wide by 2.5 cars deep, and assemble a collection of all of the first generation ///M Cars and their immediate ancestors:

E9 3.5CSL
E20 2002 Turbo
E12 M535i
E26 M1
E24 M6
E28 M5
E30 M3
E31 850CSi

With some careful shopping, I'm guessing you could nab the whole lot for $225,000-$275,000- with maybe enough left over to pick up a nice R90S and a K1.
Pie in the sky aside, I'm hoping to find a nice M1 within the next couple of years. Assuming the values don't shoot off the scale... :mad:

im_brentwood

3.5CSL... That's $50k for a nice one.
2002T.. $30k
M535i.. perhaps the cheapest one on there, $10k for a clean one I think. A Friend of mine in Chicago has a STUNNING one.
M1s are already well into 6 figures.. $125k for a driver, more for a nice one.
A Nice driver M6 is $12-15k
A Nice driver M5 is $10-12k Mine is sitting 40 feet from me as we speak... check out bmwmregistry.com Mine's the 2nd one on teh page
E30 M3 is $15k for a driver.
850csi is unbuyable in worthwhile condition for under $30-35k.

$275k you could just squeak by.. but you wouldnt have a pristine M5, M6 or M3.

Now, to that I would add...

1975 530MLE. That's the first street BMW ever sold with an M badge. Google it.. really cool car.

1986ish South African M745i. An E23 7 series with the Euro M635/E28 M5 engine... except it doesn't say "M POWER" on the cam cover.

Late 80s/early 90s Portugese/Italian market 320is. A just shy of 2000cc S14 engined E30 coupe or sedan with the M-Tech bodykit, not the M3 body.

And then there's the 81-84 South African M535i.. E12 body, E28 suspension and interior.

Them's a few to consider

im_brentwood

Why don't you guys just buy the car if it's only a lousy $100-200?

At some point you have to say "no".

gasman1

Several times each year I have customers argue over $0.01 per gallon. Several of them use the classic, "It's only a penny. What's a penny to you?" My standard reply is, "you use 800 gallons per year. That's $8.00 out of your pocket. I manage 30,000,000 gallons each year, That's $300,000 to my company and quite possibly my job if I give up $300K." That usually ends the issue. However, I've lost a few customers over a penny.