Stories from the Sales Frontlines

13293303323343352003

Comments

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,529
    Beside, how many people drive with their hand constantly resting on the shift lever?

    You'd be surprised. One of the things we stress at our CCA track schools is that you keep both hands on the wheel unless you are executing a shift. It seems that I'm always telling novices to stop resting their hand on the shift knob. After that we make them stop holding the knob with a death grip...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    This manumatic business has just made resting your hand on the shifter worse.

    People get used to driving autostick/triptronic cars like that constantly holding the gear shift and then they do the same thing in a real manual.

    I am pretty sure some BMW owner's manuals tell you not to rest your hand on the shifter. I think my MINI Cooper S manual said that.
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    Guilty....I remember doing this! (and then replacing the muffler myself so my Dad didn't find out). Luckily I worked at a neighbor's autoparts store over the summer.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Funny - almost everybody I know who drives manual does that. Admittedly - not many people I know here have stick shift.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    It's not the problem with autos, because the connection is not mechanical. All it could do is some wear to the gate. It's only manual, where there is mechanical leverage between the stick and the synchros. I think.

    Regarding keeping hands on the wheel - it's all good, but when driving in lights-to-lights city traffic and making ten shifts per minute, it becomes impractical.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    HA! I didn't recognize your new name! ;)

    Yeah I am VERY familiar with that.. I own a MODiC 3.. it can tell via a quick scan of the DME if the car's been overrevved (Autologic can't do this) but it only does it on the Siemens DMEs.. nothing on the OBD1 cars sadly.

    Saved my butt on that... threw an S52 into a guy's 328i sedan once.. he blew his M52 and a used long block was $1,500 for an M52 or we had an S52 on the shelf we could have let him have for $3,00.. so.. for another $1,500... heheh.

    Well 3 weeks after I finish the swap he comes in all pissed off, said I sold him a bad engine, his dad comes in with him ready to wring my neck.

    Out comes Mo, we plug it in.. BOOM! 9k+ rev ;)

    PWNT! I've seen this MANY times... weird is that I put TMEs in the car too...
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Absolutely! It can ruin the transmission.. it basically causes metal-metal contact.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    t's not the problem with autos, because the connection is not mechanical. All it could do is some wear to the gate. It's only manual, where there is mechanical leverage between the stick and the synchros. I think.

    I know that is what I mean, and I guess I didn't explain well enough, is that people get used to resting their hand on the shifter in an autostick car with no ill effects so think they can do it in a real manual too.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    swear Joel if you keep doing things like that I don't know what we will do with you.

    Nice work Joel, at least you tried :shades:
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    Nice work Joel, at least you tried

    That was more than nice...that was GREAT.

    As Joel has said in the past, his biggest fight everyday is to try to undue what the car selling biz past on to him. Maybe others where Joel works will watch him and learn and then they can pass it along. With enough people pitching in it will help the biz.

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh, the fun we had! Driving through tunnels and up to bus stops with the key switched off!

    Some mufflers could put up with a lot of this while others couldn't!
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    Regarding keeping hands on the wheel - it's all good, but when driving in lights-to-lights city traffic and making ten shifts per minute, it becomes impractical.

    ‘dino’, you just reminded me again why I don’t like driving sticks.

    I drove a truck for UPS for a couple years when I was working my way through night school. Although the GI Bill paid for tuition I needed some spending money you know, I had to continue with the life style the Navy had gotten me accustomed to. :) OK, back to my tale.

    As you know you get so conditioned to shifting that you don’t even think about it. As a result when I got in my 62’ Chevy Biscayne, 6cyl, automatic, after work, I just beat the floor to the left of the brake pedal continuously until I got out of town and onto the interstate for my final route home. Of course it was easy to remind myself not to shift there because I didn’t have to shift the truck there either.

    Then back to work the next day only to do it again. When I quit that job, life returned to normal and my car liked it too. :)

    I somewhat understand how you guys love your sticks, it just isn’t for me.

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I've had lots of sticks and lots of automatics.

    I perfer automatics for a number of reasons.

    I hear...I have more "control" with a manual.

    Ah..OK, I guess I don't need that kind of "control".

    I'll never understand that one.
  • smokin98sssmokin98ss Member Posts: 13
    My main reason for a manual is gas mileage 27 manual v/s 23 w/auto, quicker acceleration, and better control on curvy roads. I guess in a luxury car it would be different, but in sports cars there's no comparison. If I see someone driving an auto corvette, mustang, or something similar, I automatically think, "STATUS SYMBOL! NOT A DRIVER!" and adjust my sales strategy accordingly.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    I just added some "lost" pics from the 2003 Frankfurt auto show. New Album on myCarSpace. Something in there for Joel and British Rover.
    :)
    Mack
    http://www.carspace.com/mackabee
  • traindrivertraindriver Member Posts: 328
    Wrong! Land Rover X plan is invoice + 4% + RAG + Destination + D&H + Tax + Title fees, registration, liscence. Also, on a hot model the dealer does not have to offer X plan. D&H is whatever the dealer normally charges.

    Lrguy,
    I personally have no idea what LR's X-plan is. The original post was cut & copied directly from the fordpartner.com website. If it is wrong, maybe you can get it fixed with the corporate folks....
  • ray80ray80 Member Posts: 1,655
    Thats what they made muffler bandages for ;) (went thru a few in years past (many years) )
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    For me it's less about control, more about "connection" to the road. Autos feel numb. You hear the engine, you feel the car moving but the cause-effect feel is lost. In other words - it's torque converter that bothers me, not shifting (or lack of thereof) itself. If they fix that I would be all for autos. Put DSG in every car and I can forgo manuals.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    I hear...I have more "control" with a manual.

    Ah..OK, I guess I don't need that kind of "control".


    I’ve heard it too but just how much control does a driver need? :surprise:

    How about the one like, “I feel more in tune with the road”? If you like a stick that’s fine with me but I’m too lazy to put up with all the shifting work.

    BTW, I never blew out a muffler. My father told me if I ever did, I wouldn’t drive his car again and I knew he meant it! So when I got my own car, I wasn’t about to waste my money buying mufflers. But I didn’t miss out on that part of life since I was with friends who did it. :D

    Edit: I see that our poster friend 'dino' is one of the guys who likes the "connection" with the road. :)

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... It got covered though as Land Rover has a pretty good policy when it comes to off-road damage. ...

    They had better! Otherwise, it would be as silly as a manufacturer selling an extreme performance sports coupe and then not covering damage incurred from driving the car in the element it was designed to be driven! ;)
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    "a manufacturer selling an extreme performance sports coupe and then not covering damage incurred from driving the car in the element it was designed to be driven"

    Question for everyone...

    What is the difference between enjoying a car in the manner in which it was designed to be enjoyed, and abuse?

    For example, I love stick shifts, and I'm a quick driver. I sometimes like to give the engine some revs, and I've been known to partake in the occasional stoplight showdown. I always allow the car to reach normal operating temperature before playing, try not to spin tires, always let the clutch out cleanly with low revs before gassing it, and rarely take it near the redline.

    I don't think the way I drive my car qualifies as abuse, for two reasons. First, EPA ratings are 26/34, and the lowest tank of gas I've ever had averaged 24 MPG, and most are 28-30 MPG in mostly city driving. Second, the car has one of those oil life monitors that supposedly keeps track of accumulated engine revs, and it didn't hit 15% oil life remaining until 7,000 miles (it appears the interval it will call for based on my driving style will be around 7500 miles between changes).

    What do you guys think? Where is the line between enjoying your car, and starting to negatively impact reliability/longevity or even qualifying as abuse?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Man you love to argue.

    Take your a BMW to a track day and spin it out over the curbing into the gravel trap. Come back with some bent suspension components and then BEG BMW to cover it.

    You can beg all day long and it won't happen.

    The guy broke just about all the rules about four wheeling.

    1. He was going to fast.
    2. He was alone with no one to assist in a recovery.
    3. He didn't have a spotter.
    4. He wasn't familiar with the area. (Didn't walk the obstacle ahead of time etc.)
    5. He was driving at night without auxiliary lighting.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The type of driving you described isn't abuse.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Man you love to argue. ...

    No I don't. You like accusing me of arguing. I haven't "argued" about anything. I'm just making points and counterpoints. (Then again, I guess that is the classic definition of arguing! :P ) But I'm not trying to be hostile in any way.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    No I don't. You like accusing me of arguing. I haven't "argued" about anything. I'm just making points and counterpoints. (Then again, I guess that is the classic definition of arguing! ) But I'm not trying to be hostile in any way.

    Regardless, you are 100% wrong.
    There is a big difference between engineering a truck to be driven off road,and warrantying driver incompetence.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,804
    Well, I think as others have already indicated, its not just old VWs this is a problem on. Its all manual trans (well, i probably shouldn't say all ...).

    Anyway, this tip was given to me by my father probably the day I started driving. I've tried to pass it on to everyone I know with a stick ... problem is, they don't always listen. I had a friend in college that blew 2 trannies in his Sidekick. The first time it happened, I said "lemme guess. synchros." ... "yup". "I told ya not to drive with your hand on the stick" .... "bah! that's not why it happened." alllrighty. That tranny lasted about 18 months before the synchros blew on that one.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    I assume he's joking... either it's a joke or tayl0rd only actually absorbed 20% of so of my post.
  • rowlandjrowlandj Member Posts: 254
    I was taught how to drive on manuals, in Ireland there were no automatics to speak of. Each and every of the uncles who were contributing to my driver education told me the same thing as what folks here have been stating. Only on the clutch and shifter when actually shifting, otherwise stay away from them.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,529
    Take your a BMW to a track day and spin it out over the curbing into the gravel trap. Come back with some bent suspension components and then BEG BMW to cover it.


    I agree, no manufacturer should cover damage caused by driver error. OTOH, I heard Mitsubishi was looking for any excuse to void the powertrain warranty on their US EVOs. This is hearsay, but I understand that one guy in Ohio was denied powertrain coverage for hitting the rev limiter an excessive number of times. Not over revving, just hitting the limiter. Never mind that Mitsubishi advertised the car using WRC footage and touting the EVO's product placement in 2Fast 2Furious. Here's a 2004 Car and Driver article on the subject.
    That said, the BMW dealers that I have dealt with haven't given me any warranty problems with regards to drivers schools or autocrossing. At one school I hot-spotted a front rotor because I wasn't able to take a cool-down lap. I didn't ask or expect the dealer to cover it because the problem was my own fault. I paid to have the rotor skimmed at a local machine shop and let it go at that...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I don't think he was joking. I just don't think he pays much attention to the content of our posts.
  • lrguy44lrguy44 Member Posts: 2,197
    The press articles and surveys here may enrage and delight some posters.

    www.piedpipermc.com - look at Portfolio/press
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Heck I learned to drive on my mom's 1959 Chevy Biscayne which was the same as the Impala but not as well equipped. 3spd on the column shifter and loads of fun!
    :)
    Mackabee
  • rowlandjrowlandj Member Posts: 254
    Oh yes, the old 'three on the tree'. My old Duster had that, what a driving pleasure that was, NOT!

    It still got us around, but man that shift linkage was the sloppiest mess I ever had to deal with in a vehicle.

    JR
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    on all the manuals I have ever owned - I rested my hand on the shift knob often. I admit it. I never applied downward or angular force, but my hand was there when it wasn't on the wheel. in hundreds of thousands of miles combined on the several manual vehicles i have owned (by my count there were 5: 135K, 160K, 180K, 190K, 150K), i never ever had any transmission problems.
  • mazda6iguymazda6iguy Member Posts: 365
    I agree, no manufacturer should cover damage caused by driver error. OTOH, I heard Mitsubishi was looking for any excuse to void the powertrain warranty on their US EVOs. This is hearsay, but I understand that one guy in Ohio was denied powertrain coverage for hitting the rev limiter an excessive number of times. Not over revving, just hitting the limiter. Never mind that Mitsubishi advertised the car using WRC footage and touting the EVO's product placement in 2Fast 2Furious.

    Same sort of thing happened to a co worker of mine. He had an '04 Subaru WRX. He went through two transmissions, and Subaru gave him a hard time and wouldn't cover it. Subaru considers the WRX a high performance car, right?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I just don't understand...why would you rest your hand on the shifter and not keep it on the steering wheel?

    From the time I learned to drive, we were always taught not to do that. I guess you did no harm to the cars you drove. Some may be more sensitive?
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Didn't that go out with the inventing of power steering?
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    :confuse:

    I always keep two hands on the wheel.. unless I'm shifting or turning the radio up or flicking someone off or something...
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,476
    Joel0622, don't let anybody tell you that Ford doesn't make a great truck. I was using mine as a bulldozer the other day to push brush down the hill. Starts every day. when it needs repair it costs $50 instead of $500. Great vehicle.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • tazerelitazereli Member Posts: 241
    I'll second that one. My f150 has been about the most reliable car ive owned. the only thing that's wrong with it is an incessant noise thats developed in the last 6 months. kind of like a clanging when driving it. my mechanic has not been able to find anything however. other than that, its fine. still looks the same as the day it rolled out of the factory 13 years and 117K miles ago. (knocking on wood)

    Kyle
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    It's been my experience that BMW is quite realistic about warranty claims, if it's reasonable, they will pay the claim. I have seen failures at track and autocross events that were covered under warranty.

    But if you have clearly abused the car, they oftentimes will not pay. Pull in with a BLUE flywheel and no, they probably won't pay for that clutch. Miss a shift and blow your engine? Ahh, that's operator error. But if you're like my friend and lose a bearing in your M3's engine at the track.. well, the S54 (Last generation M3's engine) is designed for that kind of use and it should have not broken, they paid for a new engine.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    "Didn't that go out with the inventing of power steering?"

    No, mainly the invention of cell phones, followed closely by gallon-sized cups of soft drinks, take out meals, CD players, electric razors, and, of course, the guy who is trying to use all of the above at the same time.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,613
    Didn't that go out with the inventing of power steering?

    Nope always a good ideal to keep both hands on the wheel. It makes it harder to jerk the wheel out of your hands should you hit that unexpected rut, pothole or object in the road that will want to change the direction of your tires.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Someone asked me this and I don't recall who it was but here's the answer. As of today we have two 07 LE AWD Siennas on the lot. Everything else is 08.
    Mackabee
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Dude that is hideous...

    They base the GX470 off that car right?

    Over the past month I have had four different people chose a Land Rover over an equivalent Toyota/Lexus model.

    Two LR2s over RX350/Highlanders and two LR3s over Sequoia/GX470s

    Some quotes from those people just to stir the pot some more. :blush:

    LR2 buyers: The Land Rover just has a much nicer interior then the Lexus and is much more functional. You can't see out of the back on the Highlander or the Lexus. Wow the visibility is really great in this I can see exactly where the edges of the car are. The new Highlander is ugly. Wow the LR2 is quiet. We are going to DRIVE OVER THAT? (Said while pointing at the demonstration course.)

    LR3 Buyers: WOW this car is quiet. Man it is so much smoother then the Sequioa/GX470. These third row seats are great. Really easy to stow even with one hand and so much more room then any other car. You can't see out of the back of the GX470 cause of where the third row seats are. They rattle and make lots of noise. They sure don't look very safe either tethered to the sides of the car like that. Just kind of looks like an after thought in the design process.(That particular quote was from an engineer who was very analytical about everything)
  • jescuejescue Member Posts: 521
    That looks like Mercury designed the front end. :surprise:
  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    Dude that is hideous...

    Sorry Mack, I agree... What are they trying to do with that? Either make a CUV or a SUV
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Its a Euro only model you can't get it here.

    image

    It looks kind of like a ssangyong SUV...

    image

    Ssangyong I am sure copied Toyota and not the other way around. Or at least I hope that is how it happened.
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