Stories from the Sales Frontlines

14914924944964972003

Comments

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,548
    "...I would like to close the chapter on inflammatory slurs of salespeople..."

    I agree. No more inflammatory slurs...just regular slurs of salespeople. :)

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,548
    "...he occasionally goes to his local watering hole and picks fights just to prove his manhood.."

    True. But by the time I regain consciousness and drag myself back to my girly car I've forgotten what just happened. :confuse:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    I'm ready to purchase a car now. Have the money in pocket. But the Siths (car salespeople) want to play foolish and "deceitful" little games with me. They continue to act arrogant and thumb their noses at me.

    Salesman: Hello welcome in Joe's Motors. How can I...
    Amad: Get away from me, shark. I know why are you here - you scum bag.
    Salesman: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. How about I show you our ...
    Amad: I show YOU! I know all you people and all your tricks. So don't even try!!!!
    Salesman (a little annoyed): OK - lets cut to the chase - what do you want, sir?
    Amad: I want that Sludgmobile. I see your sticker. What a bunch of crap. What do you think - I'm stupid or something, you vermin?
    Salesman (furious): Yes, I do - please leave. We have nothing to sell to you. Even if we did, it would be 20% surcharge for my toxic environment worker's comp.

    The way you act here tells me you approach them (salespeople) with resentment and disdain. So far, there are no real specifics, other than "he was vermin, snake, worst scum and try to add an illegitimate charge". Most of your posts are some old stories quoted from Edmund's tales or else. Those are not yours. I start suspecting you are a 20-y.o. kid (nobody over 21 would make a Sith reference) whose car buying experience is reading some websites stating that dealers are scum and beware. Perhaps you went once or twice and saw something you don't like (like prices outside of some "book values") and decides all of them are the same.

    I have news for you - you'll get nowhere if you start conversation from "You are vermin" or so much even think that. People sense that. If I were in sales and had such "customer" I'd pass at best or if I had some time I would make them suffer, just for the spite. Perhaps there is some of that backlash in your short experience.

    First it was cute, even funny at times. I even asked Moo to let you talk. Now it is flat out annoying. Everybody know where you are. I have my share of disagreement with salesmen here and a few heated discussions - just ask them or read back to times you weren't even born here. There is a difference though between making impassionate disagreement and throwing indiscriminate insults.

    So stop trolling. Take a pill.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Very good.

    I know I would lose interest with this guy VERY quickly and he would definatly know that.

    He wishes there was a deep recession....nice.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,572
    Ditto.
    1000%

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,624
    Amad: I want that Sludgmobile. I see your sticker. What a bunch of crap. What do you think - I'm stupid or something, you vermin?

    Truth be told I was tempted to say something like that one time. I was on another Edmunds forum in a discussion on the Suzuki SX4 when it first came out. So wanting a bit more knowledge of the car I dropped by our friendly local Suzuki dealership. They actually had a $4,000 ADM on a sub $16,000 Suzuki. :confuse:

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • lls57lls57 Member Posts: 57
    Amad1's world is not a very pleasant one. I'm glad that's not the world that I live in.
    I just bought an 09 Corolla yesterday, and the whole car buying experience couldn't have been better. I had bought from this dealer before, so I called the salesman I dealt with before, and told him I'd like to stop by in a half hour or so. When I got there, he was busy, so the GSM met me instead, and he took me around to see what cars they had. He didn't tell me any lies, just pleasant conversation, showing me the car, answering my questions, etc.

    When we were ready for a test drive, my salesman was free, so he was the one that took us for the test drive. When we got back, we asked him to see if there were any cars available that might have less options (this one had a moonroof and VSC). About 5-10 minutes later he came back and said that all the cars he could locate that had the other options we wanted were equipped the same as the test drive car. So, we asked him to run some numbers, to see what we could get for a trade in, and what our net would be.

    Since this was a one price store, there was no negotiating to be done. Their price for this car, one that has been out for maybe a week, was $1,100 off MSRP, which seemed better than I could hope for elsewhere. I'm sure some will say that I could have done better, but this was no work at all, and I have my doubts that most dealers would discount such a new model. The salesman asked how I was paying for it, and I said I had financing through my credit union, and told him the rate. He asked for the keys to my car, so he could do an appraisal, and maybe fifteen minutes later, he came back with a computerized F&I worksheet showing the sale price of my new car, trade in value of my old car, amount that I am financing, and my estimated payments, based on my financing. The trade in value was almost exactly what I had calculated it to be, based on KBB good value for trade-in (no, you can't expect to get excellent private party value, they have to make money on the trade-in)

    He asked one time and one time only if I wanted gap insurance(No) or LoJack(no).
    The salesman handles the entire sale, which is a very nice way of doing things.

    It turns out I forgot to bring the bank draft with me, and that wasn't a problem. They just told me to bring it in tomorrow(today), since I had bought from them before. The worst part of the whole experience was the wait while they had the car prepped, so we were there probably two hours from beginning to end.

    Well, time to go give them their money.
  • amad1amad1 Member Posts: 123
    I didn't even wish for a deep recession for the home market. The home owner market is in trouble. With the recession coming, its only going to get worse. The stimulus package is a joke!!

    Now, in the midst of all of this, if you are someone shopping for a new home this is a GREAT TIME!! The feds lowered interest rates and housing prices are down.

    Again, I didn't wish for this. I'm a home owner myself, My home has lost value. But I'm happy for those who are shopping for new homes.

    Now I want to see a similiar situation happen in the car sales industry, which is considered the second biggest purchase next to a home.

    Now car salespeople and gatekeepers of an outdated era, you don't have the power, the power is in the hands of the consumer, that is if they choose to exercise it.

    We're telling you how much we are going to pay. We are setting the terms, not you.
    If not, let the winds of recession and slumping car sales market blow on you some more until you realize who's in charge today.

    You're no better than the housing industry. The housing industry has been humbled by the winds of recession and a slumping market. In fact, a house is a far superior investment than car, yet they have been humbled.

    Car industry, its your turn to feel the pinch. Its going to happen. It will be a great day for consumers.
  • amad1amad1 Member Posts: 123
    Very good.

    I know I would lose interest with this guy VERY quickly and he would definatly know that.

    He wishes there was a deep recession....nice.


    Yes, sometimes tuff love is necessary to get folks to do right.
  • iontrapiontrap Member Posts: 139
    Maybe the game was spin the bottle and he didn't realize until it was too late. :blush:
  • amad1amad1 Member Posts: 123
    The trade in value was almost exactly what I had calculated it to be, based on KBB good value for trade-in (no, you can't expect to get excellent private party value, they have to make money on the trade-in)

    You should have sold your own car. The dealer is going to spend 100 dollars detailing that car, they might spray paint a few rust spots and try sell your trade in 3-4k above trade in value.
  • amad1amad1 Member Posts: 123
    Are you in another galaxy? It’s the second week in February, here in southwestern PA, how much more winter can it get?

    I'm in No. Cal (Silicon Valley) its sunny 65-70 degrees of late. I guess its not a good time to car shop :blush:
  • amad1amad1 Member Posts: 123
    You are so wrong about me its laughable.
  • lls57lls57 Member Posts: 57
    Rust? This is Phoenix! My car was immaculate, it didn't need detailing, I had it detailed before I started car shopping. I've sold cars myself many times before, and I know the headache that it brings. Waiting for people to show when they say they will, but don't. People low balling you sight unseen over the phone. Believe me, I know what I'm doing trading it in. Will they mark it up 3-4K over my trade in? Probably. So what? Could I get 3-4K selling it myself? NO. Maybe 1,000, possibly 2,000. Where does it say that they can't make money? I pay a price for trading it in, I know that. It's a price that I've decided I'm willing to pay. For that price I saved over 500 on sales tax trading it in, and the headache of selling it myself to net 500 to 1,000 more.

    It's just like when a water pump goes out, I pay someone to replace it, even though I could do it myself. My first car I bought, at 16, had the engine torn apart. The person lost interest in rebuilding, so I had to put it together before I could drive it!

    If you want to sell your car yourself, fine. If I want to trade it in, fine. Don't tell me what I should do.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    you don't have the power, the power is in the hands of the consumer

    That is silliness. Power is an irrelevant concept. You cannot have a sale without a purchase. The exchange cannot happen without both parties agreeing to it. Period.

    If you have any frontlines stories, we'd be happy to hear them. There are other venues for dealing with personal emotional preoccupations.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Don't let him get to you. You did pretty darn good with such a new model just out. And I am astonished that our gracious hosts have not banned you know who. He has given these boards such a negative atmoshpere, I'm considering taking a break from here.
  • keitha3keitha3 Member Posts: 124
    Please let him stay.

    He's my Sunday morning entertainment.
  • amad1amad1 Member Posts: 123
    I seen a used car that I was interested in on the internet. I sent the Internet manager and asking him if he still had the car and he said yes. I told him that would come in a test drive. He emailed back saying to please ask for him when I got there.

    When I got there I asked for him. He showed up and shook my hand. No sooner than that, he turned me over to a lot salesman and went on about his business.

    The car that I came to test drive, that I saw on the internet, I was told by the Internet manager that they still had, I was then told by the sales lot person that the car was sold.

    Now the Internet manager who has my phone number and email address, never called or emailed to let me know that the car I was interested in was sold.

    If its not bad enough that he turned me over to the lot salesperson (someone that I wanted to avoid) he never informed me I that the car I wanted had been sold.

    What do they do next, the sales lot persons try's to sale me a more expensive car, a car outside of my budget. "So prototypical"

    He turns up the pressure. I agree to at least test drive the car since that is what I came to do anyway. Now, I wasn't rude to salesperson at all, I'm not that way, I'm most civil. Even though salepeople commit dirty tricks, I still treat them like human beings, human beings worthy of respect.

    After test drive, I thanked him for his time and was about go my way. He then turned up the pressure and asked if he could do something to get me buy the car, if he could works some numbers. I told him I was interested in the other car because it was within my budget. He asked what if we could meet half way. So I decided that it would hurt to see what he had in mind.

    Prior to going into the office area, he asked me about financing, I told I had my own. OK! so we proceeded to his cubicle. I sat down in a chair near his cubicle, he walked away somewhere came back with the "infamous" four square sheet. Now I had just told to that "idiot" I had my own financing.

    The sheet had some proposed monthly payments and some ridiculously high interest rates. Since I already had my own financing and new my credit score before hand, I don't where he came with those interest rate numbers. I doubt if he did a credit check to see what interest I really qualified for. I mean it was laughable. I had read about all these games on various consumer advocacy websites, those games came like clock work as if they were scripted. I started to feel good about myself as if I had learned the ways of a Jedi, that my research had paid off.

    The salesmen did make low offers on the price of the car, he wanted me to buy today. When he came close to a number that might be acceptable. I told him, let me go to my car, where my paper work was and I then came back. I came back and gave the salesperson and offer that was $ 500 less than what he proposed to me.
    I told him if he would except my offer. I would purchase today. He said OK. He went to the General manager with my offer, and then General manager said no, he could not sale the car to me at the price I wanted. So again, I shook both of their hands and went on about my way.

    Now that is a story from the frontlines. Those folks at that dealership really wasted my time. That dealer didn't have the decency to inform me beforehand that they had sold the car that I had originally came to see. I knew the salesperson would not be able to sale me the more car at the price I offered.

    They wasted my time and I wasted gas money driving to their lot only to play silly games.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    Is there anything in particular that we can help you with?

    I'm not board certified, but I've dealt with a lot of people in my sales career. I think I can help.

    What was your childhood like?

    -moo
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,299
    I think you would get the best deal (rebates/incentives) and selection in June or July. If you want a better deal than that you should wish for a depression. :sick:
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    That Internet Manager probably sized you up and turned you to a rookie.

    And you wasted your own time by test driving a car you had no intension of buying.

    You sound like such a joy to deal with.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    2hours! That's great! and you got a heck of a deal too. Sure there will be someone that says you could have done better, but I doubt it. The markup from invoice to MSRP is not very much on Corolla. I'd say $16-1800 dollars. So you probably paid $500.00 over invoice which is more than fair to a customer considering the car just came out. How about a quick review of the car itself? over on the Corolla 09 forum so we don't get you in trouble here. Congratulations! :shades:
  • amad1amad1 Member Posts: 123
    That Internet Manager probably sized you up and turned you to a rookie.
    -----------------------------------

    The Internet manager was a liar, plain and simple.

    And you wasted your own time by test driving a car you had no intension of buying.

    You sound like such a joy to deal with.


    I wasted my time dealing with a liar.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    And then you wasted more of your precious time by driving a car you knew you would never buy.

    You'll hear no more from me. Maybe if ignored, you'll go away as many others with your attitude have in the past.
  • amad1amad1 Member Posts: 123
    And then you wasted more of your precious time by driving a car you knew you would never buy.

    You'll hear no more from me. Maybe if ignored, you'll go away as many others with your attitude have in the past.
    ------------------------------------------

    The man lied, period. You are proving my point. As a car salesperson yourself, you should condemn lying to consumers, if what you say is truth that car salespeople are honest, upstanding and forthright people.
  • rhduke00rhduke00 Member Posts: 129
    If you're willing to go about 400 miles from where you live, I know a dealership which has a very large selection of used cars. They don't play games or use gimmicks. Suggest you go to Towbin Dodge in Las Vegas. ;)
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    After test drive, I thanked him for his time and was about go my way. … I told him I was interested in the other car

    Pop quiz: What's wrong with this picture?

    Why on Earth would you waste the saleperson's time and test drive a car you were not interested in? The prudent course of action after discovering the car you wanted was not there would have been to cut your losses and leave. And then you waste still more of his valuable time going through the motions of being interested in negotiating the purchase of a car you weren't interested in? It's rather audacious and disingenuous to then accuse the saleperson of wasting your time.

    Anyway, thank you for a frontlines story with a rather unusual slant.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,548
    "...the car I wanted had been sold..."

    That is a typical trick. It's called "Bait & Switch" and there is a board here devoted to it. A dealer who lied about a car being on the lot when he knew it was sold is not to be trusted. I would have turned around and left.

    Joel gave a pretty good distinction between sales puffery and outright lying. It sounds as if that dealer was doing the latter.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    Well put.

    He won't respond to you though. Any time a question is posed to him, he simply ignores it. He's not interested in a discussion or an argument, just mindless finger pointing and name calling.

    -moo
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    Farmer,

    Don't bother. Amad1 concocts all kinds of stories to fit his agenda.

    -moo
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    That's not quite true. He did make a best and final offer to the salesguy.

    "I came back and gave the salesperson and offer that was $ 500 less than what he proposed to me. "

    So he did make an offer on the bait part of the switch justifying the test drive.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,624
    That is a typical trick. It's called "Bait & Switch"

    Not so fast, I would like to know the time frame between being told they had it and being told it was sold. Dealers are in the business to sell cars and to be fair the longer the time frame the more likely the car could have been sold.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,286
    Theoretically, of course. If the story were true...

    I'm thinking we have a young 'un here telling tales to both amuse and annoy. Did we not note that he is a self-proclaimed "Jedi Master" in the art of cars shopping/negotiation!!!

    Really, who would wish a recession on the economy of this country so that they could buy a car!!!! I empathize with amad1 not being able to afford a new car, but this desire is a bit much.

    Continue the discussion, it is amusing. But it will be for naught as there appears to be nowhere to go with it.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    Suggest you go to Towbin Dodge in Las Vegas.

    LOL

    GP

    "New York teams are superior"

    "Toyota is the superior import"
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    I have to agree with Laurasdad. I think it is a younger person maybe someone in their late 20's to early 30's. Probably 20's though. For people that are older they expect the games because years ago thats what it was from what I understand. But from what I have seen in the market and even what I get trained on os the car business has changed. Consumers are educated and the market is flooded with dealers which increases competition which means lower prices for the consumer. I see it all the time that customers will buy at the dealer down the street for $100...

    So I that is why I think she/he is young. Most peole that are older expect and play the games also or they come in stating" I am not playing any games here!"

    SO I would say young. When I read Amads posts I think I am reading a womans writing. I would assume Amad has good credit because she/he owns there own house and is to over protective of themselves when buying vehicles which is a good thing.

    I would guess single and no children.

    College edcuated but no street smarts.

    Liberal.

    Democrat???

    Probably has a cat.

    Any other ideas?

    GP

    "New York teams are superior"

    "Toyota is the superior import''
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,572
    Any other ideas?

    He/she/it is a "professional victim"- every bad thing that happens to he/she/it is always the fault of someone else.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I asked the same question.

    The guy on the phone may have outright lied.

    He may have assumed the car was still on the lot when, in fact, it had been sold.

    Or, it's quite possible the car sold before amad1 arrived on the lot.

    He/she complains about wasting time yet takes the time to drive a car they have no intension of buying.

    I agree with the others who suggest thse stories are being made up.
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    Any other ideas?

    Yeah…a couple.

    I also think this is a young person. Let’s hope not over thirty, otherwise there is a real problem here. The way this person writes ain’t all that good either. It doesn’t sound like the bad grammar used by someone that was born here. If we have a linguist that’s lurking out there this would be a good time to jump in, or else we’ll have to go with our resident ‘teach’.

    What bugs me the most is I think this is a foreigner who is trying to straighten out the way the car biz is in this country via a blast of posts here at Edmunds, instead of learning as the result of being taken to the cleaners like most Americans have at one time or another. :(

    We’ll take care of our own problems. We just need a little more time; this Internet thingy is still in its infancy. :mad:

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,572
    The way this person writes ain’t all that good either.

    You should check out some of the Mazda boards I frequent; I firmly believe that making opposable thumbs a requirement for registration would solve the problem, but their webmasters clearly value hit numbers over proof of brain activity...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    It doesn’t sound like the bad grammar used by someone that was born here.

    Yeah I noticed that too J... she/he made refrence to sale instead of using sell... If you remember :confuse: I had to keep reading it.

    GP

    "New York teams are superior"

    "Toyota is the superior import"
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    I just want to thank Joel, Mack, and Benzservice for playing along this year in Edmunds football. I have to say the Super Bowl seemed like months ago but knowing this is the last time I have to add any signatures reminds me it was only a week ago and it is quite a relief that it is all over.

    Can't wait for August already...

    Oh and don't forget to profile amad1

    GP

    "New York teams are superior"

    "Toyota is the superior import"

    :shades:
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    So he did make an offer on the bait part of the switch justifying the test drive.

    The issue was who was wasting whose time. You cannot willingly enter a negotiation and deliberately prolong it then legitimately claim the other party wasted your time because your offer was not acceptable. This is particularly true when one asserts that before, during and after the negotiation one was not interested in the vehicle. A negotiation done in good faith is inconsistent with subsequent cries of "wasting my time." :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,135
    Taking that last story at face value...

    Who knows if someone "lied". The IM doesn't neccesarily know minute by minute the status of every unit in stock. Maybe he BSd to get the guy in, maybe it was an honest error, maybe it sold 5 minutes before our guy got there. No one knows.

    But regardless, it makes sense to me to test drive anyway since that was what you were there to do (I assume it was a similar model, maybe newer or more options, hence more expensive).

    And nothing wrong about getting a price (I am assuming you decided you did want to buy it), and making a counter offer. Obviously not good enough if they let you walk.

    Now, if you had figured out a bare to the bone offer on the 1st car, and decided it should apply to the second car, that might have been just wasting time. But if you were really $500 apart, it must have been in the ball park.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,135
    to hit the Infiniti and Volvo dealers this week. THose were the 2 that really spoke to me at the car show today.

    Now I have to see what they say when I drive them. And what the wife says when I ask for the scratch...

    At least the one I really want is for her. They had a V70 optioned just the way I want that was super nice inside. Maybe it is time to downsize from a rattly minivan to a nize tidy size wagon?

    Although an S80 (awesome seats) or a G35 (should be a blast to drive) for me will be an OK choice too.

    Or that EX35. Seems like a wagon on stilts version of the G35

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Please note my Edmund's handle. Though spelt differently I believe he was a "true" Jedi Master. ;) Second only to Yoda. I mean without him who would've trained Luke? Richard maybe? :surprise:
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    If you took his story at face value with no prejudice you may or may not notice several contridictions. For one he stated that he couldn't afford the "switch" yet counter offered with $500 less. Seems to me that the dealer and the buyer wasted each other's time as a deal was not consumated. Then again this is his story so the dealer wasted his time.

    The Emperor posessed enough Force to draw Luke's dada to the dark side. Imagine what he could do to a rookie Jedi like amad1.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    The Emperor posessed enough Force to draw Luke's dada to the dark side.

    I could ask whether Yoda was wasting Luke's time or the other way around but I won't. :P

    How many of you were in car sales when the original Star Wars came out? Did you have people dressed as Darth Vader in your showrooms to attract customers?

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    No girl would make a Sith reference - most of them would not know what Sith is - even fewer would go online and found picture of it to post it. Few girls/women would use terms like "vermin, et al" so loosely.

    If not 20 (owns a home), perhaps late 20s at latest. Definitely immature, angry at more than just dealers. Probably everybdy is out there to get him.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    He is one of the kids that have videos floating around you tube of the light saber fights.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    No girl would make a Sith reference

    Than I think he female caracteristics :surprise:

    GP

    """""""""

    akwldjgbfabvclghcviqubv
This discussion has been closed.

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