Another thing to consider. Suppose you go to dealer 'B' with dealers 'A' price of $18k and ask him to beat it. Now suppose that dealer 'B's best price is $17,500 will he give you that $17,500 or will he give you something like $17,900?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know - but that is really about the tactics of car buying, which there are as many as people out there.
When we started the conversation I was talking about showing the guy we didn't like that he lost a sale, or to show the guy we actually did like, by how much he lost just to help him to improve (if we care enough).
Whether showing the dealers the other guy's price is a good purchasing tactics, is another thing.
Some dealers apparently feel differently. A couple of weeks ago I sent an email to a very large Ford store in Columbus, Ohio, asking for a quote on a Mustang. Back and forth we exchanged messages with them finally saying they were "not going to get into a bidding war." Hey, all I did was ask for a price quote - never suggested I'd contacted anybody else or gotten any other numbers.
Never did get one from them either.
What's the point of having an internet department if you refuse to provide price quotes?
What's the point of having an internet department if you refuse to provide price quotes?
It provides a dealership with new leads. I've gotten the "we're not sure if you're a serious buyer, but come on down and we'll make you a deal" approach before (like you, I didn't like it, didn't make the trip, and didn't buy there). If enough people go for that, it's a successful strategy.
Apparently that tactic (among others) isn't worked very well for them. My understanding is that at one time they sold 700 cars per month and that last month the number was less than 300. I won't shed any tears - went there in person over the weekend to see if my internet experience was, in fact, their way of doing business and, sadly, it was.
Yeah a lot of car dealers just run their department as a way to generate leads and appointments. Unfortunately a new Internet Manager has been hired for the whole autogroup here and it seems like internet leads are being run that way now here as well.
well, i may be off here, but I'm GUESSING that dealerships are seeing ALOT of people bringing in their SUVs lately that they are horribly upside-down in, and they are just getting ... disgruntled? disenchanted? worn out?
That's just a guess, though. A theory, if you will. Maybe the salesfolk can chime in and confirm/deny.
The younger buyers, young families, are looking to get out of their recent gas guzzler purchases because it's killing the family budget. Invariably, despite the specific posts here, the two youngsters are as much as $10K upside down. They can barely afford the payments on the vehicle itself much less $500 a month in gas.
More established owners who have other resources, HE line of credit for example, are generally keeping the big rig for specific uses such as pulling a boat or trailer or doing heavy duty yard work. They are not using it as the family vehicle to the store and to work. The more established buyers are just buying Corolla's, Civic's and the like as a special purpose commuter vehicle.
Yes, Ricart - my source for sales figures works at another Ford store here. Interestingly, last Saturday they tried something different - a very detailed newspaper ad of select vehicles across the product line (equipment, MSRP, discount, rebate, final price) - a refreshing change for Ricart.
Now, in fairness, a couple of the other stores here have been just about as bad to try to work with. The other three have been better and one actually good and will get my business if I go ahead.
I'm not in the automobile business but I understand their perspective. In fact, you really can't blame them for trying to use internet inquiries as a lead generator, not a free quote machine. Look at it this way, by just quoting their "best" price, all they have done is equip you to shop the price around town. They haven't done anything to establish a relationship with you, sell the dealership, talk financing, their service capability (free, comparable loaners?), etc.
Anybody can cut the price. If he cuts it too much he knows he has to make it back up in the F & I room, offerring no customer service, or scamming you. On the other hand, a good merchant tries to sell the store. A V6 Toureg is about the same vehicle and money as a V6 Porsche Cayenne. Where do you want to buy your German SUV? A place with great gourmet coffee, free loaners, less hassled people, flat screen TVs, no screaming kids, WIFI etc?
Another salesperson who posts on here off and on, jmurman, (in MD, I believe) says he runs the Internet dept. and he established a policy of quoting an aggressive price right off the bat. I believe it's then non-negotiable. He does very well with that.
The Internet depts. who won't quote a price are not understanding the Internet buyer, who wants usually a fast deal and a good deal, and wants a minimum of hassle. Murman gets it. The guys who say "come on down" don't yet get it. They're using a new tool to do business the same old way.
Why would anyone care if their car dealer has gourmet coffee and flat screen TVs? I'm buying a car, not settling in for a morning of leisure!
Well, in Ricart's case, apparently they want the customers to see the pool table in the showroom. The sales reps seem to get the most use out of it though.
Can't understand putting a pool table within striking distance of a Shelby GT however.
Well, in Ricart's case, apparently they want the customers to see the pool table in the showroom. The sales reps seem to get the most use out of it though.
This is probably a well thought out sales strategy. You will have much more success when the customers can find the sales reps, since from what I've been reading here, they don't seem all that interested in finding the customers.
Just a thought, but the more I think of it the more I think I'm right.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
On the other hand, a good merchant tries to sell the store.
On the other hand selling the store is meaningless. I, for one would never go back to the dealership unless its for warranty work. Those that do can take it to any dealership for the work. Plus most people only buy every several years. So the question what does the dealership have to offer other than price for me to buy?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well it depends on the vehicles. If you are buying Hyundais, Kias, Izuzus, Suzikis and other low end makes then all they have to offer is price and for the most part those people are only looking at price.
As you climb up the automotive scale then most people want extra things. The trick is to recognize if this particular internet person cares about those extras or is just a Kia/Hyundai buyer with a Mercedes budget. Sometimes you can read into the language of their request sometimes you cannot.
I don't know brit, even my customers are looking for what they get after the sale. You can buy a car anywhere, but what happens while you own it is more important when it comes time to buy your next car. I think that is true regardless of price point.
I'm familiar with RICART, too. Although, they're about a 2 hour drive for me, when I was in the market for a new Mustang GT, and they were hard to come by, I did make the drive to them because they had what I wanted. Didn't make a deal with them (qualified for the X plan price, but they wouldn't honor it...told me they would on the phone...got to the dealership and was denied) and felt like I needed a shower when I left their showroom.
Conversely, the dealership nearest my home agreed, over the phone, to give me the X plan price on an ordered Mustang GT. This was when the Mustang GT was hard to come by at any dealership. The few that were on the market were going for MSRP+. Don't know if this has any bearing or not, but the dealership I bought it from isn't associated with a large dealer group. Just a single store. Sales people and management have been there for a long while. Pretty laid back, overall. They do mostly truck fleet business, though. Mustang sales are almost an afterthought to them. About all the sales guys know about the car is that it's major feature is it's FAST.
To compare and contrast, I recently bought a BMW. While the Ford dealership was easy to deal with and they did a little walk up business, most of what they do is selling to companies who need fleets of trucks. They are pretty much a "no customer frills" type place. You walk in. Make a deal. Drive away. If they offer you a bottle of water while at the dealership, they consider that "customer service".
BMW, to my knowledge, doesn't have a fleet dept. They rely on walk up, single unit sales. The dealership has all the "customer" focused amenities.....big screen TV in the customer lounge....free Starbucks.....free pastries....free wireless internet connections....big fluffy couches, etc. They give BMW loaner cars for free when you come in for service. Service "consultants" seem to have a "zen-like" approach when dealing with customers' service issues. Sales people are all very knowledgeable and carry an almost religious fanatacism when it comes to the cars. Of course, in the end, you pay for this service. No "invoice deals" to be had there.
Point of all this, the sales experience seems to change from brand to brand, as well as from dealer to dealer. The higher up the ladder I seem to go on the price and brand scale, the better the customer service gets.
"The higher up the ladder I seem to go on the price and brand scale, the better the customer service gets."
The other thing I have noticed is that even the low end and middle of the road brands' service gets better at the dealerships that are located in the better part of town. I think some of these dealers realize that the customers that live in their area just demand better service.
I live in a large city. I started taking my Mitsubishi to a Mitsubishi dealer in the better part of town (outskirts of town), and the service was lightyears better than other dealers I have used in the past within the city limits. I mean, loaner cars (when I didn't even purchase from them), shuttle service, etc...
I just bought a Honda a few months ago. I looked at other Honda dealers at the time, and settled on a Honda dealership that is right next to the Mitsubishi dealerhip. Again, these guys treated me a whole lot better than any dealer I had ever visited within the city limits.
You can buy a car anywhere, but what happens while you own it is more important when it comes time to buy your next car.
I'm forced to use that often used phase on this thread, BINGO !!!!
As readers of this thread know, I'm the owner of 2 Hyundai's and I damn sure wouldn't have bought the second if I wasn't totally satisfied in every way with the first.
Fortunately, I can afford to buy cars that are 2/3 times more expensive but that's just not me. A lot of car buyers that have more spend more and I can not blame them for how they spend their money, after all it's theirs.
For me, I liken way up-scale cars to the finest (supposedly) restaurants. A 'steak' can only be so good after that "it's the experience" and don't get me wrong, I've had these too.
I'm just looking for quality in the cars I buy and I think I've found that. Only time will tell if I'm right.
BTW, I make a pretty good 'steak' in the back yard but when I remind the wifee of this she says, " you're not going to get away with that, again, tonight". Boy, am I thankful she doesn't care about cars. Furniture, now that's where she puts it into high gear. I can't win them all.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Oh boy, does Lustine Toyo strike a nerve with me. Very long story short, I went in there with a quote from another Toyo dealer, to see if they could beat it. After the customary hand-off by the sales guy, the slicky boy SM went into this tirade over how the price I was quoted could no way, shape, or form be a real price and that the other dealer was lying to me yada-yada-yada. He whipped out this convoluted spreadsheet to "prove it." Well, I took this for about 90 seconds and then blasted out of there telling him he was a fool in the parking lot.
So I went to another toyo dealer the next day and got my original quote (which slicky boy said was "not real") beat by $400. And so I bought the vehicle.
Lustine, what a piece of work that dealership is. Steer clear if you're in NOVA.
Unless your are the only game in town you are just selling something that someone within a reasonable distance can offer (I know that this isn't always the truth with Rover and some other high end cars). When that is the case does it make any difference where I buy the latest Sludgemobile? As I said I can get it serviced anywhere and at any dealer, so other than price whats the incentive to chose one dealer over another?
What extra things are you talking about? Free popcorn in the showroom? or are you going to deliver the car right to my door?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
IT's not the right thing to do but after awhile, all salespeople tend to make assumptions about their customers.
In this case, that salesperson probably assumed the customer was seriously upside down in that Explorer.
It may be that he just had three customers in a row that wanted to trade in their tankers for a more fuel efficient car. Explorers are probably at the top of that list.
We get weary of people who "know" what their unwanted trade is worth. The trouble is, these cars are seriously "back of book" by, literally thousands of dollars.
The Ford dealers don't want them and neither do the wholesalers.
I have owned "expensive cars" and I now drive a Mazda 3 and a Honda Odyssey.. Like you, I could easily swing the payments on a BMW or a Mercedes, but I just cannot justify the payments, and now that I have a family I have different priorities.
The parking garage where I work is full of 40-65K cars, and living in northern VA, all of them have scratches and dings and chipped paint. I choose to drive a car that is brand new and paid off. Others choose to have a $500-700 (or more) a month car payment.. I choose to invest my money for the future, others like to spend for the present..
It amazes me how much debt Americans are taking out to live a lifestyle they cannot afford outside of borrowing money that is not theirs.. I recently read an article that stated that first the first time in history Americans owe more than they make.. This is scary.. I cannot tell you how many friends and co-workers cashed in on the equity of their house (home equity loans) to buy a nice car.. Guess what. Interest rates are rising and the housing market has drastically slowed here. Coupled with gas costing $3+ (and the fact that most of these "expensive" cars take premium fuel), and this is a recipe for disaster..
My point is that I think there is a serious issue in this country with people buying things they cannot afford, and I am amazed how somebody who makes $2-3K a month (before taxes) can afford a $500+ car payment.
I'll bet car dealers see this everyday (people trying to get into a vehicle they cannot afford)...
"I am amazed how somebody who makes $2-3K a month (before taxes) can afford a $500+ car payment."
It's all about priorities. In '02, my buddy had just graduated college, and was probably bringing in $2500/mo gross. However, he decided to live at home, and went out and bought a brand new, '02 Pontiac Firebird with the Ram Air package, leather, t-tops, wheels, etc...
He recently told me he paid $600/mo for that car back then - he eventually wised up, traded down to something more reasonable and got a place of his own.
Ding, ding, ding, ding! You are SO right!! People who have been treating their houses as if they were piggy banks are finding out they're being led to slaughter, instead.
(I'm also in No. Va., by the way, and in NC for the summer.)
There used to be some "rule of thumb" financial planning guidelines, like your total home mortgage should be no more than 3 times your annual income, payments on that mortgage should be no more than 30% of your gross monthly salary, ideally 25%, and so on.
For cars, my old rule of thumb was that the total cost (not the monthly payment) of the car should be somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of your annual income. In other words, if you make $60,000, you could afford a $20,000 car at most. Less being fine, of course, once your income gets higher.
I think all those RoT's have been tossed out these days.
"It's all about priorities. In '02, my buddy had just graduated college, and was probably bringing in $2500/mo gross. However, he decided to live at home, and went out and bought a brand new, '02 Pontiac Firebird with the Ram Air package, leather, t-tops, wheels, etc..."
Yeah, I somewhat expect that out of a recent college graduate who went from making very little (if any) money to making 20-40K per year.
What concerns me are all the people in the 30-50 age range that are still learning that lesson.. I have a co-worker (who I know is at least 2 pay grades below me) that bought a 65K BMW last year and now he just had a baby and reality is setting in.. Diapers, formula, and day care is not cheap
Funny thing is that he keeps asking me about all the features of my Odyssey..
That's why marketing (advertizing) specialist make so much money - convince us that we "deserve" more that we can afford. Plus of course the word afford was redefined to "being able to pay with a last dime left in the pocket". That way a common moron making 30K/year can "afford" $400/month 6-year loan payment on a new Camry or another making $50K can "afford" $700/month 48-month lease on a fully loaded 330i, or whatever else.
In other words, if you make $60,000, you could afford a $20,000 car at most.
Its great if you can live by it, but isn't $20k far below the average family sedan cost? While $60k is far above the average income?
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just that its increasingly difficult to .... unless you go used.
I can tell you that, even with my deeply discounted Accord, I'm at about 32%. My wife's vehicle, on the other hand, is over 50% of her salary, and that was also deeply discounted. That averages us out to about 40-41%. With taxes and all, our housing payment is about 29% of our monthly income. Interesting numbers. Maybe cars are just too darned expensive.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"I think all those RoT's have been tossed out these days"
My wife and I live by one particular RoT that sure does take a lot of stress out of our lives - we make sure that if one of us were to lose our job, the other one could carry all the bills, mortgage, car payment, etc...(In other words, we don't get in over our heads).
Luckily, we are both in very high demand fields, and feel very secure. However, you never know when the winds will change direction, and one of us might be out of our job. It sure is nice to know that if that happens, we won't have to start selling off stuff and looking for a smaller house. Sure, we both see our friends driving nicer cars, and hopping from house to larger house every few years (and many of them tell us they don't stay long enough to gain equity before they leave), but we still prefer our lifestyle to theirs.
...but I just cannot justify the payments, and now that I have a family I have different priorities.
Darn those priorities, they do have a habit of getting in the way don't they?
I don't have a family to raise anymore, I'm finished with that (if you're up there and reading this thread, thanks again for getting me through that). Years ago, priorities changed the way I looked at life and now I'm in a rut. I still would rather spend my money on things other than cars. Sorry car dealers, nothing personal.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Its great if you can live by it, but isn't $20k far below the average family sedan cost? While $60k is far above the average income?
Conclusion: Most American, by far, live beyond their means, perhaps including yours truly (I bought $25K car when I was making less than $50K). Of course, the borders could move somewhat one way or another and low interest loans help, but it could probably move within 5-8 grand, not 20-30, as some (many) appearch to be thinking.
I deliver cars to customers all the time. On one occasion we even flat bedded a Range Rover to the customers office, about one hour away, at his request as he did not want to put any miles on the car till he got it.
I also pick up and drop off cars for service. One of my clients makes an appointment for valet service and I am free then I will do it myself instead of having our driver do it.
One of my clients called me in a panic one day because her rover would not start. She called me first before roadside since she knows I can get things done.
I called one of the owners explained the situation to him and he brought the flatbed trailer we use for car swaps to her house.
We figured the battery was proably dead so brought a jump box with. Turns out the battery was not dead but something else was wrong, this was a while ago so I forget the problem exactly, anyway we pushed the rover up onto the flat bed and brought it back to the dealership. We also dropped a loaner vehicle off for her as well.
We managed to get all of that done in less then an hour which is much faster then roadside assistance can typicaly get to a vehicle. When the car was fixed it was valeted back to her house.
Its great if you can live by it, but isn't $20k far below the average family sedan cost? While $60k is far above the average income?....Maybe cars are just too darned expensive.
Yes, and that's exactly my point. People think they can "afford" things that really they can't. Three year car loans used to be the norm. Now five year loans are the most common, and even longer loans are possible. This puts people way more upside-down than they ever used to be. But the payments fit the budget even when the overall cost means they'll be making those payments for a longer time.
Of course depends on circumstances, folks with no kids can splurge a little more and folks with 3 or 4 little ones better run those numbers *very* carefully.
OK, I'm sounding like an old fuddy-duddy here. I'll admit I enjoy my splurge (a red 350Z roadster). One of the benefits of being middle-aged with no kids to pay for!
There used to be some "rule of thumb" financial planning guidelines, like your total home mortgage should be no more than 3 times your annual income, payments on that mortgage should be no more than 30% of your gross monthly salary, ideally 25%, and so on.
That's funny. The "rule of thumb" that I was taught was that the mortgage was not to be 2 times your annual income and that your living expenses (rent or house payment) should be no more than 25%, 20% ideally.
There has even been inflation on those fairly conservative standards.
Well, there has to be. In some areas, real estate prices and even rental prices have gone up far, far in advance of salary or inflation.
I would be lucky in my area to find a decent one-bedroom apartment for half my take-home salary. I see ads on the internet talking about a $175k mortgage, and I can't even find a condo in a bad neighborhood for that price.
I'm in a roommate situation, and it still amazes me to see car ads where they're talking about a monthly lease payment more than I'm paying in rent.
My point is that the "acceptable" debt levels (if such a thing exists) has inflated quite a bit over the years (as have the debt levels), often much to the detriment of the consumer.
Definitely find a great sedan for 20K or under. (Danf1 will love me here) but look at the Hyundai Sonata. Where I live you can get a brand new, loaded Sonata for well under $20K (4cyl sell from around $17K, V6 around 18K). This is on a brand new sedan (pretty large) with tons of features and safety options and that price includes a 10yr/100K warranty. You can easily find a slightly used Camry/Accord/Altima, etc for under 20K, and if you are concerned you can get a certified vehicle that comes with a comprehensive warranty..
Believe me, when I went to the Mazda dealer to pay cash on my Mazda3, it was very tempting to purchase an RX-8, or a 350Z and have a "small" car payment. But, the reality is that gas here costs about $3.40 for premium fuel, and I really just need a commuter car. That is why I bought the 3. It is still a fun car without compromising my wallet or at the gas pump (I am averaging 27mpg in about 90% city driving).
The other reality is that, by time I retire, Social Security will most likely not be there, and a 401K plan alone (I maxed out my 401K almost ten years ago and have not looked back) is not enough anymore. I am also investing another 10-12% of my gross pay on other investments for the future. I read in the Washington Post that 80% of all home mortgages in Northern VA over the last year are either interest only or variable rate mortgages. In the next few years, some of these home owners are looking at some significant mortgage increases as their rates get re-adjusted. So, if you are in the market for a used Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, etc there should be a ton out here in NOVA available in the next couple years...
Car is around 25,000 dollars now. Granted this has been inflated some what by the rise of the ultra luxury segment of vehicles in the 150,000 dollar up and up range but still the average income is no where near 70,000 dollars.
I think average income in CT is around 75,000 dollars and that is well above the norm for the United States.
Comments
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When we started the conversation I was talking about showing the guy we didn't like that he lost a sale, or to show the guy we actually did like, by how much he lost just to help him to improve (if we care enough).
Whether showing the dealers the other guy's price is a good purchasing tactics, is another thing.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Never did get one from them either.
What's the point of having an internet department if you refuse to provide price quotes?
It provides a dealership with new leads. I've gotten the "we're not sure if you're a serious buyer, but come on down and we'll make you a deal" approach before (like you, I didn't like it, didn't make the trip, and didn't buy there). If enough people go for that, it's a successful strategy.
That's just a guess, though. A theory, if you will. Maybe the salesfolk can chime in and confirm/deny.
The younger buyers, young families, are looking to get out of their recent gas guzzler purchases because it's killing the family budget. Invariably, despite the specific posts here, the two youngsters are as much as $10K upside down. They can barely afford the payments on the vehicle itself much less $500 a month in gas.
More established owners who have other resources, HE line of credit for example, are generally keeping the big rig for specific uses such as pulling a boat or trailer or doing heavy duty yard work. They are not using it as the family vehicle to the store and to work. The more established buyers are just buying Corolla's, Civic's and the like as a special purpose commuter vehicle.
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Now, in fairness, a couple of the other stores here have been just about as bad to try to work with. The other three have been better and one actually good and will get my business if I go ahead.
Anybody can cut the price. If he cuts it too much he knows he has to make it back up in the F & I room, offerring no customer service, or scamming you. On the other hand, a good merchant tries to sell the store. A V6 Toureg is about the same vehicle and money as a V6 Porsche Cayenne. Where do you want to buy your German SUV? A place with great gourmet coffee, free loaners, less hassled people, flat screen TVs, no screaming kids, WIFI etc?
The Internet depts. who won't quote a price are not understanding the Internet buyer, who wants usually a fast deal and a good deal, and wants a minimum of hassle. Murman gets it. The guys who say "come on down" don't yet get it. They're using a new tool to do business the same old way.
Why would anyone care if their car dealer has gourmet coffee and flat screen TVs? I'm buying a car, not settling in for a morning of leisure!
I suppose it would depend upon how much time you spent at the dealership waiting for your car to be repaired!
ooo, snap!
A retail outlet or restaurant with this prohibition on screaming kids would get all of my business. :P
Dealer visits are (hopefully) infrequent enough that it wouldn't matter so much.
ooo, snap!
Well, you're right, if you're buying an Audi or VW then I guess those things *would* be important.
Can't understand putting a pool table within striking distance of a Shelby GT however.
This is probably a well thought out sales strategy. You will have much more success when the customers can find the sales reps, since from what I've been reading here, they don't seem all that interested in finding the customers.
Just a thought, but the more I think of it the more I think I'm right.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
On the other hand selling the store is meaningless. I, for one would never go back to the dealership unless its for warranty work. Those that do can take it to any dealership for the work. Plus most people only buy every several years. So the question what does the dealership have to offer other than price for me to buy?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As you climb up the automotive scale then most people want extra things. The trick is to recognize if this particular internet person cares about those extras or is just a Kia/Hyundai buyer with a Mercedes budget. Sometimes you can read into the language of their request sometimes you cannot.
Conversely, the dealership nearest my home agreed, over the phone, to give me the X plan price on an ordered Mustang GT. This was when the Mustang GT was hard to come by at any dealership. The few that were on the market were going for MSRP+. Don't know if this has any bearing or not, but the dealership I bought it from isn't associated with a large dealer group. Just a single store. Sales people and management have been there for a long while. Pretty laid back, overall. They do mostly truck fleet business, though. Mustang sales are almost an afterthought to them. About all the sales guys know about the car is that it's major feature is it's FAST.
To compare and contrast, I recently bought a BMW. While the Ford dealership was easy to deal with and they did a little walk up business, most of what they do is selling to companies who need fleets of trucks. They are pretty much a "no customer frills" type place. You walk in. Make a deal. Drive away. If they offer you a bottle of water while at the dealership, they consider that "customer service".
BMW, to my knowledge, doesn't have a fleet dept. They rely on walk up, single unit sales. The dealership has all the "customer" focused amenities.....big screen TV in the customer lounge....free Starbucks.....free pastries....free wireless internet connections....big fluffy couches, etc. They give BMW loaner cars for free when you come in for service. Service "consultants" seem to have a "zen-like" approach when dealing with customers' service issues. Sales people are all very knowledgeable and carry an almost religious fanatacism when it comes to the cars. Of course, in the end, you pay for this service. No "invoice deals" to be had there.
Point of all this, the sales experience seems to change from brand to brand, as well as from dealer to dealer. The higher up the ladder I seem to go on the price and brand scale, the better the customer service gets.
The other thing I have noticed is that even the low end and middle of the road brands' service gets better at the dealerships that are located in the better part of town. I think some of these dealers realize that the customers that live in their area just demand better service.
I live in a large city. I started taking my Mitsubishi to a Mitsubishi dealer in the better part of town (outskirts of town), and the service was lightyears better than other dealers I have used in the past within the city limits. I mean, loaner cars (when I didn't even purchase from them), shuttle service, etc...
I just bought a Honda a few months ago. I looked at other Honda dealers at the time, and settled on a Honda dealership that is right next to the Mitsubishi dealerhip. Again, these guys treated me a whole lot better than any dealer I had ever visited within the city limits.
I'm forced to use that often used phase on this thread, BINGO !!!!
As readers of this thread know, I'm the owner of 2 Hyundai's and I damn sure wouldn't have bought the second if I wasn't totally satisfied in every way with the first.
Fortunately, I can afford to buy cars that are 2/3 times more expensive but that's just not me. A lot of car buyers that have more spend more and I can not blame them for how they spend their money, after all it's theirs.
For me, I liken way up-scale cars to the finest (supposedly) restaurants. A 'steak' can only be so good after that "it's the experience" and don't get me wrong, I've had these too.
I'm just looking for quality in the cars I buy and I think I've found that. Only time will tell if I'm right.
BTW, I make a pretty good 'steak' in the back yard but when I remind the wifee of this she says, " you're not going to get away with that, again, tonight". Boy, am I thankful she doesn't care about cars. Furniture, now that's where she puts it into high gear. I can't win them all.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
So I went to another toyo dealer the next day and got my original quote (which slicky boy said was "not real") beat by $400. And so I bought the vehicle.
Lustine, what a piece of work that dealership is. Steer clear if you're in NOVA.
What extra things are you talking about? Free popcorn in the showroom? or are you going to deliver the car right to my door?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In this case, that salesperson probably assumed the customer was seriously upside down in that Explorer.
It may be that he just had three customers in a row that wanted to trade in their tankers for a more fuel efficient car. Explorers are probably at the top of that list.
We get weary of people who "know" what their unwanted trade is worth. The trouble is, these cars are seriously "back of book" by, literally thousands of dollars.
The Ford dealers don't want them and neither do the wholesalers.
And, this situation is only getting worse!
I have owned "expensive cars" and I now drive a Mazda 3 and a Honda Odyssey.. Like you, I could easily swing the payments on a BMW or a Mercedes, but I just cannot justify the payments, and now that I have a family I have different priorities.
The parking garage where I work is full of 40-65K cars, and living in northern VA, all of them have scratches and dings and chipped paint. I choose to drive a car that is brand new and paid off. Others choose to have a $500-700 (or more) a month car payment.. I choose to invest my money for the future, others like to spend for the present..
It amazes me how much debt Americans are taking out to live a lifestyle they cannot afford outside of borrowing money that is not theirs.. I recently read an article that stated that first the first time in history Americans owe more than they make.. This is scary.. I cannot tell you how many friends and co-workers cashed in on the equity of their house (home equity loans) to buy a nice car.. Guess what. Interest rates are rising and the housing market has drastically slowed here. Coupled with gas costing $3+ (and the fact that most of these "expensive" cars take premium fuel), and this is a recipe for disaster..
My point is that I think there is a serious issue in this country with people buying things they cannot afford, and I am amazed how somebody who makes $2-3K a month (before taxes) can afford a $500+ car payment.
I'll bet car dealers see this everyday (people trying to get into a vehicle they cannot afford)...
It's all about priorities. In '02, my buddy had just graduated college, and was probably bringing in $2500/mo gross. However, he decided to live at home, and went out and bought a brand new, '02 Pontiac Firebird with the Ram Air package, leather, t-tops, wheels, etc...
He recently told me he paid $600/mo for that car back then - he eventually wised up, traded down to something more reasonable and got a place of his own.
(I'm also in No. Va., by the way, and in NC for the summer.)
There used to be some "rule of thumb" financial planning guidelines, like your total home mortgage should be no more than 3 times your annual income, payments on that mortgage should be no more than 30% of your gross monthly salary, ideally 25%, and so on.
For cars, my old rule of thumb was that the total cost (not the monthly payment) of the car should be somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of your annual income. In other words, if you make $60,000, you could afford a $20,000 car at most. Less being fine, of course, once your income gets higher.
I think all those RoT's have been tossed out these days.
Yeah, I somewhat expect that out of a recent college graduate who went from making very little (if any) money to making 20-40K per year.
What concerns me are all the people in the 30-50 age range that are still learning that lesson.. I have a co-worker (who I know is at least 2 pay grades below me) that bought a 65K BMW last year and now he just had a baby and reality is setting in.. Diapers, formula, and day care is not cheap
Funny thing is that he keeps asking me about all the features of my Odyssey..
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Its great if you can live by it, but isn't $20k far below the average family sedan cost? While $60k is far above the average income?
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just that its increasingly difficult to .... unless you go used.
I can tell you that, even with my deeply discounted Accord, I'm at about 32%. My wife's vehicle, on the other hand, is over 50% of her salary, and that was also deeply discounted. That averages us out to about 40-41%. With taxes and all, our housing payment is about 29% of our monthly income. Interesting numbers. Maybe cars are just too darned expensive.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
My wife and I live by one particular RoT that sure does take a lot of stress out of our lives - we make sure that if one of us were to lose our job, the other one could carry all the bills, mortgage, car payment, etc...(In other words, we don't get in over our heads).
Luckily, we are both in very high demand fields, and feel very secure. However, you never know when the winds will change direction, and one of us might be out of our job. It sure is nice to know that if that happens, we won't have to start selling off stuff and looking for a smaller house. Sure, we both see our friends driving nicer cars, and hopping from house to larger house every few years (and many of them tell us they don't stay long enough to gain equity before they leave), but we still prefer our lifestyle to theirs.
Darn those priorities, they do have a habit of getting in the way don't they?
I don't have a family to raise anymore, I'm finished with that (if you're up there and reading this thread, thanks again for getting me through that). Years ago, priorities changed the way I looked at life and now I'm in a rut. I still would rather spend my money on things other than cars. Sorry car dealers, nothing personal.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Conclusion: Most American, by far, live beyond their means, perhaps including yours truly (I bought $25K car when I was making less than $50K). Of course, the borders could move somewhat one way or another and low interest loans help, but it could probably move within 5-8 grand, not 20-30, as some (many) appearch to be thinking.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I also pick up and drop off cars for service. One of my clients makes an appointment for valet service and I am free then I will do it myself instead of having our driver do it.
One of my clients called me in a panic one day because her rover would not start. She called me first before roadside since she knows I can get things done.
I called one of the owners explained the situation to him and he brought the flatbed trailer we use for car swaps to her house.
We figured the battery was proably dead so brought a jump box with. Turns out the battery was not dead but something else was wrong, this was a while ago so I forget the problem exactly, anyway we pushed the rover up onto the flat bed and brought it back to the dealership. We also dropped a loaner vehicle off for her as well.
We managed to get all of that done in less then an hour which is much faster then roadside assistance can typicaly get to a vehicle. When the car was fixed it was valeted back to her house.
I better by a new expensive car while I still can.
Heck with tomorrow!!!
Bye,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Yes, and that's exactly my point. People think they can "afford" things that really they can't. Three year car loans used to be the norm. Now five year loans are the most common, and even longer loans are possible. This puts people way more upside-down than they ever used to be. But the payments fit the budget even when the overall cost means they'll be making those payments for a longer time.
Of course depends on circumstances, folks with no kids can splurge a little more and folks with 3 or 4 little ones better run those numbers *very* carefully.
OK, I'm sounding like an old fuddy-duddy here. I'll admit I enjoy my splurge (a red 350Z roadster). One of the benefits of being middle-aged with no kids to pay for!
That's funny. The "rule of thumb" that I was taught was that the mortgage was not to be 2 times your annual income and that your living expenses (rent or house payment) should be no more than 25%, 20% ideally.
There has even been inflation on those fairly conservative standards.
When it comes down to it, why **NEEDS** to buy a NEW car? And you can get a pretty decent vehicle for well under $10k.
Other than the vehicles I buy for the fleet, I have never had a new vehicle. And my vehicles rarely leave me stranded ...
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I would be lucky in my area to find a decent one-bedroom apartment for half my take-home salary. I see ads on the internet talking about a $175k mortgage, and I can't even find a condo in a bad neighborhood for that price.
I'm in a roommate situation, and it still amazes me to see car ads where they're talking about a monthly lease payment more than I'm paying in rent.
Stop that now, you're making logical sense! :P
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
Believe me, when I went to the Mazda dealer to pay cash on my Mazda3, it was very tempting to purchase an RX-8, or a 350Z and have a "small" car payment. But, the reality is that gas here costs about $3.40 for premium fuel, and I really just need a commuter car. That is why I bought the 3. It is still a fun car without compromising my wallet or at the gas pump (I am averaging 27mpg in about 90% city driving).
The other reality is that, by time I retire, Social Security will most likely not be there, and a 401K plan alone (I maxed out my 401K almost ten years ago and have not looked back) is not enough anymore. I am also investing another 10-12% of my gross pay on other investments for the future. I read in the Washington Post that 80% of all home mortgages in Northern VA over the last year are either interest only or variable rate mortgages. In the next few years, some of these home owners are looking at some significant mortgage increases as their rates get re-adjusted. So, if you are in the market for a used Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, etc there should be a ton out here in NOVA available in the next couple years...
Cost of car vs monthly income - qbrozen #291
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I think average income in CT is around 75,000 dollars and that is well above the norm for the United States.