"I think average income in CT is around 75,000 dollars and that is well above the norm for the United States."
Yeah, but what is the median home price in CT? I live in Fairfax County, VA which is the wealthiest county (last I heard) in the US. However, if you want a modest single family home plan on spending somewhere between $700K-1.2million.
They are building new McMansions next to my townhome community and they START at $900K. A nicely appointed model with upgrades is easily 1.2 million.. BTW, these have little to no backyards and there is about 10ft of space between each home... It is crazy...
The average home price in the city of Santa Barbara, CA is a hefty $1.2 million!
Supply and demand, my friends.
In fact, there was a recent article about a vacant 2 acre lot in the city that the housing authority wants to develop as "affordable" housing -- with prices starting at just under $500K!
The article goes on to state that there will be assistance available from the housing authority - the maximum salary that will qualify for aid will be $160K.
Oh. My. God. The idea that someone who makes six figures needing aid to buy a house is astonishing to me.
Question ... all these percentages being thrown around ... is this gross income or net income?
Hey all I'm a brand new poster, so I apologize if this doesn't show up in the right place. Anyway, I think anyone would agree that purchasing a new car in alomost any circumstance is a luxury. Having a car is definetly a requirement, but nobody has to buy new (like jlawrence01 said) to fill the utility of needing a vehicle. So the question comes to not what you need, but how much luxury you are *willing* to afford. On how much you want to take from other aspects of your life. :shades:
Don't be so sure. Hyundais are gradually earning more respect. They have greatly improved their product and are winning over former Accord and Camry buyers.
I think you and I are both old enough to remember when "little Japanese cars" was something of an epithet. Took a while for Toyota, Honda and Nissan to grow their reputations; the Koreans are coming along to the party now.
Anyway, resale value doesn't have to be an issue if people keep their cars a long time. After 6 or 7 or 8 years, who cares what the value is, you've got your use out of it. It's not going to be a huge issue at that point.
If you turn your cars over ever two or three years, then yes, resale matters. Otherwise, not so much.
I worked for a Hyundai dealership about 7 years ago, and bought a 2000 Tiberon. I was 20 at the time and I was MEAN to that car and it took all the abuse and kept on coming. Eventually I had to replace the clutch, but that after 75,000 miles of HARD driving by my friends and I.
The point is, even then Hyundai was slowly gaining respect. These days that trend continues, and they certainly seem to be the better known and respected of the Korean brands. They still depreciate faster then most typical domestics or Japanese imports, but as biancar said its getting better and better every day.
They still have one of the better warranties out there too. Which adds to both resale value and being able to keep the cars for years without replacing them.
Granted now I work for a Ford dealership, so I'm doing everything I can to makie sure the Fusion takes over the mid-size sedan class. :P
...Anyway, resale value doesn't have to be an issue if people keep their cars a long time. After 6 or 7 or 8 years, who cares what the value is, you've got your use out of it. It's not going to be a huge issue at that point.
If you turn your cars over ever two or three years, then yes, resale matters. Otherwise, not so much.
That's exactly the way I feel about depreciation. Other than when I was very young (first 2 cars) I have never had a car for less than 8 years. So, when they are that old who cares ? Certainly not me. One of the bad things about that is our economy would probably be third worldish (new word). Then we wouldn't have time to be talking here, we would be working 20 hours a day and still have nothing!
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
You should know the answer to that...I do. british works at a high end dealership which work on higher margins. The demographics on a Land Rover buyer are much narrower than the mass produced Honda products. The lower end Honda dealerships work at the high volume/lower margin spectrum.
Thus, british has the time(due to lower volume) to offer the quality and service a 60k Land Rover buyer would expect.
I would agree with Hyundai gaining respect. Three or four years ago I would have laughed if someone had suggested I buy a Hyundai. The past year or two I would have said they are getting better but have still have a long ways to go.
With the recent high ranking in JD Power and favorable reviews in most auto mags, I would say they are knocking on the door. A friend (motor head) recently rented a Hyundai Sonota, and spoke highly of the appearance and performance. Today, I would be "close" to saying I would consider Hyundai if I were in the market for a new car.
Well we don't sell 150 cars a month. We barely do that many new and used cars combined on a single year. Makes it easy to offer those kind of services.
We also do events for our clients or members if you will. Two off-road driving events a year with instructors present and two more lifetsyle events at the dealership or in some cases a clients house. We have a client who is trying to sell his house, well lets be honest and call it a compound cause that is what it is, and we are trying to do an event there. He has more then enough land around for a nice big picnic and some scenic drives on the way up.
Also the people that will be coming to this event just might be in the market for a house err compound so it works out for both of us.
I saw a Land Rover on I-99 in Pennsylvania today and it had, in big letters on the sides of the vehicle (something like), "Land Rover Adventure". I meant to remember exactly what it said, but I forget now. :confuse:
Is that familiar? What is it if you know. Just curious.
That Huyndai will depreciate like a rock unlike an Accord or Camry.
Maybe but you will also pay a lot more for that Accord or Camry. Plus as others said the longer you keep it the less resale is an issue. Sure a comparable Honda would be worth $2,000-2,500 more today than my Hyundai is, but it would have cost at least $3k more to begin with. Where is the value in that?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It will probably stop when Honda and Toyota people, both salespeople and owners, accept the fact the Hyundai is now building a quality competitive vehicle, actually take some time to look at one maybe and stop crying resale. Other than resale value, which in 5 to 10 years is highly debatable, they don't have much of a leg to stand on. Sure they are good cars, but go into a Honda dealer's service department and guess what you'll see.....
This is going to be way off topic so I am only going to post this once...
So, danf1, based on your post it's all Hontoy people's fault huh? Why didn't you mention that many time this sort of discussion was started by the Sonata owners trying to justify their purchase over an Accord or Camry. They make their purchasing decision sounds so good that it is stupid to buy an "overpriced" Accord and Camry. Why can't they just accept the fact that yes the Sonata is an up and comer but IT IS NOT A CAMCORD YET!! If some of the Sonata owners and just shut the *beep* up and stop bashing the Camcord maybe we'll have fewer of this kind of discussions.
Why didn't you mention that many time this sort of discussion was started by the Sonata owners trying to justify their purchase over an Accord or Camry.
I don't see many of these started by Sonata owners trying to justify their purchase as much as Sonata owners responding to those who say that they bought junk.
yes the Sonata is an up and comer but IT IS NOT A CAMCORD YET!!
Oh the current crop of Sonatas are right up there with the Camcords. Of course there are those that will deny that and they are welcome to do so, but it doesn't change the facts.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Misspoke, thats what I get for typing real fast trying to get out of the office at the end of the day, brain and fingers don't work well together then.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well we can take this in a completely new direction. (And for the record I've ony owned a Tiburon, and I don't now.) Anyway, If we're gonna do the whole Vs. Camcord business I think Ford (yes, as a Ford Salesperson I'm obviously bias, but regardless) has done a good job knocking the Camry around with the Fusion. Most of the reviews I've seen give the Fusion better scores overall. I'm extreamly excited for the AWD and Hybrid models.
That's the thing about innovation though. When the Taurus was first introduced, it dominated sales for a number of years. Then as automakers figured out what was done right and wrong (some faster then others) they adapted and improved. Camcords ruled the scene for while and are still strong, but it's basically inevitable in this class for others to learn from and trump the features and technology.
It's all about who gets there first. Then it's about who does it right first. Then it's about who does it better first. And it goes in a pretty circle for a while while the marketing departments have a field day. Finally it all starts over.
Camcords have historically been very well built (for the most part) but especially the last few years, other automakers have figured out that most consumers won't settle for cheap short cuts. So everyone is starting to bring thier "A game" instead of cutting costs as much.
I love the increased competition, I think it's excellent for the business.
Who knows, in a couple of years it might be Fusion VS. Sonata VS. Intrepid (hehe..) for the top spot in this class. :surprise:
Was brought up because somebody mentioned that it is difficult to find a quality sedan (loaded) for under 20K and I mentioned the Sonata. I don't even own a Hyundai, but I would certainly consider buying one if my budget was 18-20K and I needed a fairly large sedan that was loaded with features. If you are really hard pressed to get a Accord or Camry, then buy a used one if it is not in your budget.
My whole point is that you should shop based on what you can afford, not what you want.. It is really easy to get "caught up in the moment" when you are car shopping and lose your common sense. I know I have been there and done that..
Car dealers see this all the time I am quite sure.. Somebody walks in looking at the base or mid-level model and ends up getting the top of the line model with sat radio, nav system, etc.. That adds thousands to the cost of the car.. Look at the 07 Camry. The base model sells (MSRP) around 20K or so and the loaded model goes for around 32K.. How many people walk in the door that budgeted for 18-21K walk out paying 25-28K+??? More than you think..
A few years ago, my folks were in the market for a new car .. their first since 1973! For the past 10-15 years they've driven used Toyotas (first a Celica then a Camry) so naturally they looked at the Camry first.
Found that they could get into a 4-cyl LE for just under $20K. Then my dad got the Hyundai fever .. researched the Sonata (previous body style) and found that for less money he could get the V6 GLS, 10 year warranty and better grade steel in the panels -- I don't think he realized that thicker steel makes the car heavier and therefore less fuel efficient. But I digress.
They bought the Sonata and have been very happy with it. The car is now 3 years old and I'd be very surprised if it had 20K on it. I've driven it and found it to be quite competent, if not overly sporty - but that's not an issue with the folks.
However, your mileage may vary. I took a close look at the new generation Sonata last fall and found it to be very well equipped for the money, especially in the safety department.
Well, I have another story told from the buying side...
Several months ago my wife and I went to the local Ford dealer to see about a new Mustang, which would be the third she's had. We had a nice salesman show us their car and take all of the information about us and our car, except for an authorization for a credit check- I don't let any dealer run that until I am actually applying for credit.
Well, he comes back with the first pencil from the tower, and it is of course "stupid high" (except for her trade-in value, which wasn't too much less than TMV and CarMax's appraisal). So I tell the salesman, again, we're not paying for a $300 protection package plus $300 pinstripe plus $250 for a blinking brake light, and especially not full MSRP. He'll have to do better.
Well, he goes up to the desk and comes right back. Him: "I really have to ask you again for a credit check."
Me: "Why? I'm not talking payments here. I need to know if the manager will subtract or discount the added items, and then I need your best quote on your car."
So he goes back again, and comes right back again. "I'm sorry, but they will go over all of that information in the 'business office.' But before we let you back there, we need your credit info."
Me: "Well I have never had this happen before, so we will be going now. Thanks anyway."
The manager sees me shaking his hand and standing up, so he comes running over to introduce himself, but the story doesn't change- no negotiating price until they have a credit app. We go back and forth for a few minutes about how ridiculous I think this is, but he won't budge. "We need to know more information about you before we can talk about money." I walked out, and didn't return their phone calls, I was so annoyed.
Who has ever heard of all negotiations taking place in the 'business office'? No signed sales contract, no handshake and agreement, just a credit app and your talking financing? I wonder if anyone falls for that.
The "Camcord vs Sonata" or whatever discussions will end when Hyundai owners stop getting so defensive about their cars, and when non-Hyundai owners realize that Hyundai is making good cars.
And likely about that time, the Suzuki owners will start feeling persecuted... :P
And likely about that time, the Suzuki owners will start feeling persecuted...
Yeah, that Verona's a pretty good car, isn't it?
Funny, when the folks bought their Sonata, my dad found some website that is kind of a reverse auction (a la Lending Tree) -- you put up the informaton about the car you want to purchase, and the dealers submit their bids. After all that work, the lowest price still came from the closest dealer.
No trade, cash deal. Smooth as silk is what I heard.
benderofbows: hard to believe that in this day and age there are still dealers who act like that. It's not like there aren't many other Ford dealers to choose from.
Sounds like the Ford dealer was treating you like the ohter dealers you have mentioned in your previous posts - discounting you because you look young.
He probably thought, "here is a young kid coming in here fantasizing he can buy a Mustang." Before he gave you any numbers, he just wanted to see how "capable" you were of buying. I would like to have seen what would have happened if a couple in their 50s had gone in that same day looking at the same car - you think they would have had to fill out a credit app before getting a price? I'm not saying he was right for judging you - just guessing as to why he was so adamant you fill out the credit app.
Sounds like the Ford dealer was treating you like the ohter dealers you have mentioned in your previous posts - discounting you because you look young. He probably thought, "here is a young kid coming in here fantasizing he can buy a Mustang." Before he gave you any numbers, he just wanted to see how "capable" you were of buying.
Yea, I thought about that too, but in this case he should have known. I mean, we already had one Mustang that we had bought brand new... Plus, I told him (rather angrily) what my score was (730 at the time) before I left, but he still let me get madder and leave.
You did the right thing by walking out. I have never had a car dealer ask to pull my credit in the negotiation phase. I understand the theory that the dealer does not want to waste his time on somebody with horrible credit, but pulling credit scores should not be done lightly. When in doubt, the dealer should mention that their credit score will affect the interest rate the dealer can get them (if they choose to finance through the dealer that is) so the numbers could change. That is fair. I mean, the customer is also wasting his time if his credit is shot...
seen that before in the green pee stores that run liner-closer . The one that shows you the car only is the presenter,, they get you to say that you will buy the the car if numbers are agreeable and then throw you in the box
They are worried about wasting time with him and yet they pester him even without the credit app.
Sounds to me like they wanted to know where to hit the sweet spot between front-end and back-end profit. If he's got average credit, they can offer a lower price and get him financed at a higher rate - one they've raised from the buy rate. But with excellent credit the customer might know the best rate and not give the dealership much in the way of back end so they're going to hold the line on the sales price.
I will be the first to agree that Hyundai has, indeed, come a long way. They had to.
At this point, August 2006, it is, however, still a Hyundai and a Korean car. Fit and finish, although much improved still isn't on par with Honda or Toyota.
Resale is still dismal and a lot of people DO care about that. I am the person who has to deal with this when people want to trade them in.
I guess with all these stories about "customer profiling" I think some dealers (not all) are trying to qualify before they spend any time with the customer. Don't neccessarily agree with some of the tactics (especially asking for a credit app before agreeing on the price).
I can also see where a high line dealership is a little more reluctant to "deal" with a younger person. I would imagine their thought process runs along the lines of....
1) The person doesn't have the financial wherewithall to afford the cars they sell...or... 2) IF the person does have the credit, the price (or more likely, the payment) will be such a big chunk of their income, the dealer won't spend time to negotiate.
Again, I don't neccessarily agree with those tactics, but I probably believe those in the car biz are trying to find the path of least resistance when selling their wares.
Younger people are probably aren't the target demographic or the type of customer they're looking for.
At this point, August 2006, it is, however, still a Hyundai and a Korean car. Fit and finish, although much improved still isn't on par with Honda or Toyota.
I have read your posts for many a year, I am not surprised you say that. However many I have spoken to agree that Hyundais are on par with Toyota and Honda when you compare fit and finish, and these are Camcord owners. Take a good honest look and you will see that that is the case.
Resale is still dismal and a lot of people DO care about that.
Again the resale value on my car is about $2,500 less than a comparable Honda, but the original sales price of the Honda was about was $3,000 more. Lets see pay $3,000 more for the car so you can get $2,500 more when you trade it in, how is that a good deal? It seems like higher resale value is just a justification for paying more.
As far as reliability, I guess time will tell.
My 2000 Elantra has been the most reliable car I have ever had, even better than any Toyota my sister has had. Many owners will agree with the reliability of the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yup we are supposed to guide people through the sales process. Also it goes back to the whole off-road thing. When you drive off-road you need a spotter sometimes because you might not be able to see where you tires need to be.
Spotters were also called trailguides.
You build a lot of trust with someone when you are guiding their brand new 60,000 dollar vehicle through a maze of boulders and rock ledges.
Ok and a quick story... Land Rover has this concierge service for land rover owners that are in either regular or extended warranty.
I might not get all of the details of this story right as the second part of the story was told to me by one of my customers over some very fine wine and beer one night.
Back a few months ago in January I think one of my clients was stuck in Chicago because his flight was canceled. He had to be back in CT by the next day for his wedding anniversary. In nearly 30 some years of marriage he had never not been with his wife for their anniversary and they did something special each year like having dinner at the place their first date was or something like that. I was on my third or fourth beer and second glass of wine by now so I don't remember exactly.
Anyway so he calls me because he can't find the Land Rover Concierge service phone number. I look it up for him and he calls it. The concierge service gets him on a bus from the airport that takes him to a train that takes him to some other airport that is not closed and he catches a little commuter plane that takes him into Bradley international.
It took like 12 hours instead of two hours but he did manage to get home in time for his anniversary dinner.
That dealership made a LOT of mistakes in my humble opinion.
First and foremost, as a salesman, I NEVER "Pre-qualify" my customers in my mind. Nor will my sales manager. Granted we're in a small town and work very much off follow up and referrals, but regardless I think that's a big mistake for anyone to make.
So what if you spend your time trying to help people that can't be helped? Just because you make friends with them and they can't buy a car doesn't mean you wasted your time. Who knows who they might recommend you to, or when they may come back with a very eligable co-signer. Or, like in your case, when the person seems like they might not be a great credit score, and it ends up they have a better score then you do!
The point is you never know, and the rules of proper networking say you shouldn't discount anyone. Getting to know your community isn't a waste of time in any sales field. So, to re-iterate dc_driver's point, I totally agree you did the right thing walking out. Dealerships that operate like that are going to find out pretty quick that today's busy, better informed consumer has more important things to do then debate over whether thier credit is good enough before a price is even set.
Bottom line is people in the dealerships need to quit playing games and actually become customer oriented. I'm sure people have been saying that forever, but as time goes on it just becomes more relevent.
Dealerships that operate like that are going to find out pretty quick that today's busy, better informed consumer has more important things to do then debate over whether thier credit is good enough before a price is even set.
You would think so, wouldn't you. Unfortunately though, it appears to be a business model that seems to work. Not just pre-qualifing the customer, but screamer ads, a policy of "tell them anything they want to hear" just to get them into the store, and salesmen that never last longer than six months.
Just like the inane TV ads for anything from cleaning products to mobile homes, it re-enforces the old adage that you can't go wrong by underestimating the public at large. As isell often points out, the customer who's been repeatedly lied to will still often reward the store with a sale.
Don't expect a dealer to give you a good price. Some dealers do, but don't expect it.
The car buying experience is much easier and more enjoyable if you first determine the exact type of car you want and the price you want to pay. Offer that price to the dealer and see what happens.
Comments
Yeah, but what is the median home price in CT? I live in Fairfax County, VA which is the wealthiest county (last I heard) in the US. However, if you want a modest single family home plan on spending somewhere between $700K-1.2million.
They are building new McMansions next to my townhome community and they START at $900K. A nicely appointed model with upgrades is easily 1.2 million.. BTW, these have little to no backyards and there is about 10ft of space between each home... It is crazy...
$565,000
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/snapshots/CS0926620.html
Oh and I have a couple of stories that I will post after work I just don't have time to write them, edit them and spell check them right now.
Supply and demand, my friends.
In fact, there was a recent article about a vacant 2 acre lot in the city that the housing authority wants to develop as "affordable" housing -- with prices starting at just under $500K!
The article goes on to state that there will be assistance available from the housing authority - the maximum salary that will qualify for aid will be $160K.
Oh. My. God. The idea that someone who makes six figures needing aid to buy a house is astonishing to me.
Question ... all these percentages being thrown around ... is this gross income or net income?
Thats not to bad, in Kenilworth, IL the medium sales price for a house sold in the first quarter of 2006 was $2.875 million.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Anytime I've ever seen income numbers being thrown around, unless they specifically say otherwise it's always been GROSS.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
In eleven years, I have NEVER ONCE delivered a car to a customer. I think I followed a customer home once.
I wouldn't have the time even if I wanted to.
I think you and I are both old enough to remember when "little Japanese cars" was something of an epithet. Took a while for Toyota, Honda and Nissan to grow their reputations; the Koreans are coming along to the party now.
Anyway, resale value doesn't have to be an issue if people keep their cars a long time. After 6 or 7 or 8 years, who cares what the value is, you've got your use out of it. It's not going to be a huge issue at that point.
If you turn your cars over ever two or three years, then yes, resale matters. Otherwise, not so much.
The point is, even then Hyundai was slowly gaining respect. These days that trend continues, and they certainly seem to be the better known and respected of the Korean brands. They still depreciate faster then most typical domestics or Japanese imports, but as biancar said its getting better and better every day.
They still have one of the better warranties out there too. Which adds to both resale value and being able to keep the cars for years without replacing them.
Granted now I work for a Ford dealership, so I'm doing everything I can to makie sure the Fusion takes over the mid-size sedan class. :P
If you turn your cars over ever two or three years, then yes, resale matters. Otherwise, not so much.
That's exactly the way I feel about depreciation. Other than when I was very young (first 2 cars) I have never had a car for less than 8 years. So, when they are that old who cares ? Certainly not me. One of the bad things about that is our economy would probably be third worldish (new word). Then we wouldn't have time to be talking here, we would be working 20 hours a day and still have nothing!
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
You should know the answer to that...I do. british works at a high end dealership which work on higher margins. The demographics on a Land Rover buyer are much narrower than the mass produced Honda products. The lower end Honda dealerships work at the high volume/lower margin spectrum.
Thus, british has the time(due to lower volume) to offer the quality and service a 60k Land Rover buyer would expect.
With the recent high ranking in JD Power and favorable reviews in most auto mags, I would say they are knocking on the door. A friend (motor head) recently rented a Hyundai Sonota, and spoke highly of the appearance and performance.
Today, I would be "close" to saying I would consider Hyundai if I were in the market for a new car.
We also do events for our clients or members if you will. Two off-road driving events a year with instructors present and two more lifetsyle events at the dealership or in some cases a clients house. We have a client who is trying to sell his house, well lets be honest and call it a compound cause that is what it is, and we are trying to do an event there. He has more then enough land around for a nice big picnic and some scenic drives on the way up.
Also the people that will be coming to this event just might be in the market for a house err compound so it works out for both of us.
I saw a Land Rover on I-99 in Pennsylvania today and it had, in big letters on the sides of the vehicle (something like), "Land Rover Adventure". I meant to remember exactly what it said, but I forget now. :confuse:
Is that familiar? What is it if you know. Just curious.
2025 Forester Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport
Maybe but you will also pay a lot more for that Accord or Camry. Plus as others said the longer you keep it the less resale is an issue. Sure a comparable Honda would be worth $2,000-2,500 more today than my Hyundai is, but it would have cost at least $3k more to begin with. Where is the value in that?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Everywhere you go the Camcord vs. Sonata talk always pops up.
When will this madness stop? :sick:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So, danf1, based on your post it's all Hontoy people's fault huh? Why didn't you mention that many time this sort of discussion was started by the Sonata owners trying to justify their purchase over an Accord or Camry. They make their purchasing decision sounds so good that it is stupid to buy an "overpriced" Accord and Camry. Why can't they just accept the fact that yes the Sonata is an up and comer but IT IS NOT A CAMCORD YET!! If some of the Sonata owners and just shut the *beep* up and stop bashing the Camcord maybe we'll have fewer of this kind of discussions.
Okay, rant over
Stories anyone? :P
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't see many of these started by Sonata owners trying to justify their purchase as much as Sonata owners responding to those who say that they bought junk.
yes the Sonata is an up and comer but IT IS NOT A CAMCORD YET!!
Oh the current crop of Sonatas are right up there with the Camcords. Of course there are those that will deny that and they are welcome to do so, but it doesn't change the facts.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hmhh Land Rover Adventures are expedition trips that Land Rover sponsors for off road driving education.
I think that is near http://www.paragonap.com/ which is a huge off road facility so maybe something is going on there in the near future.
My local four wheel drive club just had their huge anual Cool Ride meeting there this past weekend
That's the thing about innovation though. When the Taurus was first introduced, it dominated sales for a number of years. Then as automakers figured out what was done right and wrong (some faster then others) they adapted and improved. Camcords ruled the scene for while and are still strong, but it's basically inevitable in this class for others to learn from and trump the features and technology.
It's all about who gets there first. Then it's about who does it right first. Then it's about who does it better first. And it goes in a pretty circle for a while while the marketing departments have a field day. Finally it all starts over.
Camcords have historically been very well built (for the most part) but especially the last few years, other automakers have figured out that most consumers won't settle for cheap short cuts. So everyone is starting to bring thier "A game" instead of cutting costs as much.
I love the increased competition, I think it's excellent for the business.
Who knows, in a couple of years it might be Fusion VS. Sonata VS. Intrepid (hehe..) for the top spot in this class. :surprise:
If you are really hard pressed to get a Accord or Camry, then buy a used one if it is not in your budget.
My whole point is that you should shop based on what you can afford, not what you want.. It is really easy to get "caught up in the moment" when you are car shopping and lose your common sense. I know I have been there and done that..
Car dealers see this all the time I am quite sure.. Somebody walks in looking at the base or mid-level model and ends up getting the top of the line model with sat radio, nav system, etc.. That adds thousands to the cost of the car.. Look at the 07 Camry. The base model sells (MSRP) around 20K or so and the loaded model goes for around 32K.. How many people walk in the door that budgeted for 18-21K walk out paying 25-28K+??? More than you think..
Found that they could get into a 4-cyl LE for just under $20K. Then my dad got the Hyundai fever .. researched the Sonata (previous body style) and found that for less money he could get the V6 GLS, 10 year warranty and better grade steel in the panels -- I don't think he realized that thicker steel makes the car heavier and therefore less fuel efficient. But I digress.
They bought the Sonata and have been very happy with it. The car is now 3 years old and I'd be very surprised if it had 20K on it. I've driven it and found it to be quite competent, if not overly sporty - but that's not an issue with the folks.
However, your mileage may vary. I took a close look at the new generation Sonata last fall and found it to be very well equipped for the money, especially in the safety department.
:sick:
Several months ago my wife and I went to the local Ford dealer to see about a new Mustang, which would be the third she's had. We had a nice salesman show us their car and take all of the information about us and our car, except for an authorization for a credit check- I don't let any dealer run that until I am actually applying for credit.
Well, he comes back with the first pencil from the tower, and it is of course "stupid high" (except for her trade-in value, which wasn't too much less than TMV and CarMax's appraisal). So I tell the salesman, again, we're not paying for a $300 protection package plus $300 pinstripe plus $250 for a blinking brake light, and especially not full MSRP. He'll have to do better.
Well, he goes up to the desk and comes right back. Him: "I really have to ask you again for a credit check."
Me: "Why? I'm not talking payments here. I need to know if the manager will subtract or discount the added items, and then I need your best quote on your car."
So he goes back again, and comes right back again. "I'm sorry, but they will go over all of that information in the 'business office.' But before we let you back there, we need your credit info."
Me: "Well I have never had this happen before, so we will be going now. Thanks anyway."
The manager sees me shaking his hand and standing up, so he comes running over to introduce himself, but the story doesn't change- no negotiating price until they have a credit app. We go back and forth for a few minutes about how ridiculous I think this is, but he won't budge. "We need to know more information about you before we can talk about money." I walked out, and didn't return their phone calls, I was so annoyed.
Who has ever heard of all negotiations taking place in the 'business office'? No signed sales contract, no handshake and agreement, just a credit app and your talking financing? I wonder if anyone falls for that.
And likely about that time, the Suzuki owners will start feeling persecuted... :P
Yeah, that Verona's a pretty good car, isn't it?
Funny, when the folks bought their Sonata, my dad found some website that is kind of a reverse auction (a la Lending Tree) -- you put up the informaton about the car you want to purchase, and the dealers submit their bids. After all that work, the lowest price still came from the closest dealer.
No trade, cash deal. Smooth as silk is what I heard.
benderofbows: hard to believe that in this day and age there are still dealers who act like that. It's not like there aren't many other Ford dealers to choose from.
He probably thought, "here is a young kid coming in here fantasizing he can buy a Mustang." Before he gave you any numbers, he just wanted to see how "capable" you were of buying. I would like to have seen what would have happened if a couple in their 50s had gone in that same day looking at the same car - you think they would have had to fill out a credit app before getting a price? I'm not saying he was right for judging you - just guessing as to why he was so adamant you fill out the credit app.
Yea, I thought about that too, but in this case he should have known. I mean, we already had one Mustang that we had bought brand new... Plus, I told him (rather angrily) what my score was (730 at the time) before I left, but he still let me get madder and leave.
You did the right thing by walking out. I have never had a car dealer ask to pull my credit in the negotiation phase. I understand the theory that the dealer does not want to waste his time on somebody with horrible credit, but pulling credit scores should not be done lightly. When in doubt, the dealer should mention that their credit score will affect the interest rate the dealer can get them (if they choose to finance through the dealer that is) so the numbers could change. That is fair. I mean, the customer is also wasting his time if his credit is shot...
Before our GM directed us to cease selling Land Rover trade-ins, I sold a few of them. They really attract a "different" type of customer!
Not my cup of tea but, hey, if it works!
Sounds to me like they wanted to know where to hit the sweet spot between front-end and back-end profit. If he's got average credit, they can offer a lower price and get him financed at a higher rate - one they've raised from the buy rate. But with excellent credit the customer might know the best rate and not give the dealership much in the way of back end so they're going to hold the line on the sales price.
I will be the first to agree that Hyundai has, indeed, come a long way. They had to.
At this point, August 2006, it is, however, still a Hyundai and a Korean car. Fit and finish, although much improved still isn't on par with Honda or Toyota.
Resale is still dismal and a lot of people DO care about that. I am the person who has to deal with this when people want to trade them in.
As far as reliability, I guess time will tell.
I can also see where a high line dealership is a little more reluctant to "deal" with a younger person. I would imagine their thought process runs along the lines of....
1) The person doesn't have the financial wherewithall to afford the cars they sell...or...
2) IF the person does have the credit, the price (or more likely, the payment) will be such a big chunk of their income, the dealer won't spend time to negotiate.
Again, I don't neccessarily agree with those tactics, but I probably believe those in the car biz are trying to find the path of least resistance when selling their wares.
Younger people are probably aren't the target demographic or the type of customer they're looking for.
I have read your posts for many a year, I am not surprised you say that. However many I have spoken to agree that Hyundais are on par with Toyota and Honda when you compare fit and finish, and these are Camcord owners. Take a good honest look and you will see that that is the case.
Resale is still dismal and a lot of people DO care about that.
Again the resale value on my car is about $2,500 less than a comparable Honda, but the original sales price of the Honda was about was $3,000 more. Lets see pay $3,000 more for the car so you can get $2,500 more when you trade it in, how is that a good deal? It seems like higher resale value is just a justification for paying more.
As far as reliability, I guess time will tell.
My 2000 Elantra has been the most reliable car I have ever had, even better than any Toyota my sister has had. Many owners will agree with the reliability of the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Bingo. Yet another reason not to boast about one's platinum credit rating.
Spotters were also called trailguides.
You build a lot of trust with someone when you are guiding their brand new 60,000 dollar vehicle through a maze of boulders and rock ledges.
Ok and a quick story... Land Rover has this concierge service for land rover owners that are in either regular or extended warranty.
I might not get all of the details of this story right as the second part of the story was told to me by one of my customers over some very fine wine and beer one night.
Back a few months ago in January I think one of my clients was stuck in Chicago because his flight was canceled. He had to be back in CT by the next day for his wedding anniversary. In nearly 30 some years of marriage he had never not been with his wife for their anniversary and they did something special each year like having dinner at the place their first date was or something like that. I was on my third or fourth beer and second glass of wine by now so I don't remember exactly.
Anyway so he calls me because he can't find the Land Rover Concierge service phone number. I look it up for him and he calls it. The concierge service gets him on a bus from the airport that takes him to a train that takes him to some other airport that is not closed and he catches a little commuter plane that takes him into Bradley international.
It took like 12 hours instead of two hours but he did manage to get home in time for his anniversary dinner.
First and foremost, as a salesman, I NEVER "Pre-qualify" my customers in my mind. Nor will my sales manager. Granted we're in a small town and work very much off follow up and referrals, but regardless I think that's a big mistake for anyone to make.
So what if you spend your time trying to help people that can't be helped? Just because you make friends with them and they can't buy a car doesn't mean you wasted your time. Who knows who they might recommend you to, or when they may come back with a very eligable co-signer. Or, like in your case, when the person seems like they might not be a great credit score, and it ends up they have a better score then you do!
The point is you never know, and the rules of proper networking say you shouldn't discount anyone. Getting to know your community isn't a waste of time in any sales field. So, to re-iterate dc_driver's point, I totally agree you did the right thing walking out. Dealerships that operate like that are going to find out pretty quick that today's busy, better informed consumer has more important things to do then debate over whether thier credit is good enough before a price is even set.
Bottom line is people in the dealerships need to quit playing games and actually become customer oriented. I'm sure people have been saying that forever, but as time goes on it just becomes more relevent.
You would think so, wouldn't you. Unfortunately though, it appears to be a business model that seems to work. Not just pre-qualifing the customer, but screamer ads, a policy of "tell them anything they want to hear" just to get them into the store, and salesmen that never last longer than six months.
Just like the inane TV ads for anything from cleaning products to mobile homes, it re-enforces the old adage that you can't go wrong by underestimating the public at large. As isell often points out, the customer who's been repeatedly lied to will still often reward the store with a sale.
Don't expect a dealer to give you a good price. Some dealers do, but don't expect it.
The car buying experience is much easier and more enjoyable if you first determine the exact type of car you want and the price you want to pay. Offer that price to the dealer and see what happens.