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Comments
Really how often does that take place? Once or twice a decade? Any real estate agent working for a buyer will offer below asking price.
The examples present here (and in Isells post following) rarely happen.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well then your experiences do mirror mine as everything I have sold that way has been haggled down.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And you didn't stop by for a drink and say hello?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Was/am I happy with the dealer?
Yes- I've given the sales and service departments perfect scores on every CSI survey I have received.
Am I happy with the car?
Not so much... :sick:
I have to give credit to volvomax. When I bought the Mazda I was also considering a 2005 M3. volvomax told me to go with the M3, but did I listen?
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Of course!
COME ON DOWN TO GGs and DRIVERS GREAT CAR DEALS. WE LOSE MONEY ON EVERY CAR WE SELL. JUST $5 DOWN AND $450 A WEEK.
NO HAGGLE, NO HASSLE, DRIVE IN, DRIVE OUT, FREE MOP N GLO
IF YOU BUY WITHIN 15 MINUTES OF ENTERING THE BUILDING. :shades:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Now who is inviting bump and grind? First of all, most new cars are about 9% profit. Therefore, I am below invoice by dropping my pants so quickly on a car you don't even know you want to buy. If you have a book that you paid $8 for and you retail for $10, would you say if you look at the book and maybe you want the book I will sell it for $7. We can then go from there.
And you didn't stop by for a drink and say hello?
We got there Tuesday afternoon and had meetings until 7 pm. Next 2 days from 8 am until 7 pm, non-stop. Stayed at the Hilton downtown (that used to be a great hotel but it is getting a little aged and restaurants are not as good as they used to be, but the staff is very friendly). From the hotel room on the 23rd floor could see the lake, huge green space with baseball diamonds, tennis courts, and roller skate area....lots of green space. I like the architecture which we see in the taxi ride from O'Hare to the hotel and back.
If we had the time I would have been glad to see you in Chicago. Many years ago we had a bus tour of the city. One day we are going to stay a few extra days and get around. Maybe then we can get together and swap some sales stories in person.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Affordable is what the customer will pay. Affordable to him for that car. I never had a problem with the semantics as you seem to have. The concept is do not fender trade - let the customer know that when we settle on the car he wants I will work with him for a win/win negotiation.
Since when is asking a premium for a product dishonest? It may be good or bad marketing depending on market conditions - but dishonest? That is a strong accusation.
In my example I was thinking American car. But the principle stays the same. I don't expect you to lose on the deal, I want you to still be in business when I come back. But your starting point could be 4 or 5% below MSRP. Unless, your cars are so hot you are getting full retail, and I won't find them discounting across town.
On books we have remainder books so we have room to negotiate, but in our sale to the public once a month we sell at about the wholesale price. We bring in new releases too, because some people want the newest releases. We get those for 40% off retail. We add a $1 or $2 to cost price for handling and for loss, but they are just for the customers convenience. We don't really make a profit on them, but people who buy those will buy remainder books where we do make a reasonable profit. But, we really work on volume....the place is packed when we open the doors to the public once a month.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Touchy! I didn't say you were dishonest asking for full retail.
I don't know you when I walk in, but people judge other people within 20 seconds.
If you approach me with a good price from the start you will win me over pretty fast. If you ask for full MSRP and are very serious you will lose me pretty quick. I wouldn't call you dishonest, I just think you aren't giving me enough credit, you might even think I am not too bright and you can take advantage of me.
Those are the thoughts that go through my mind.
I remember looking at a Chevy Blazer. The saleslady wore a party dress, which my wife thought was a bit much. We went for a test drive with her in the back seat, talking the whole time.
She stated the full MSRP and it sounded like she wasn't thinking of budging. Told me what great service the dealer had.
I said I was looking, I'd think about it.
Goodbye.
I am at work and it is getting busy, so I'll check in later.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Fair enough. We all have to learn somehow. :shades:
Those are your words. Actually, one does not start negotiating price before a car is decided upon. It is totally irrelevant. Also, I do not know what I can or wish to do until I put the deal in the computer to know where I am at from a profit standpoint. I may have a car priced from the get go at the bottom get it gone deal. First the car, then the price.
By the way, the real (or best for that matter) is the price I will sell at and the buyer will buy at. It is that simple.
Actually, you did kind of imply that asking full price was dishonest. :shades:
The scenarios you describe aren't really what anyone here is talking about, IMHO. Stating MSRP and sticking to that is one thing. Offering to negotiate or hinting at lower prices is another.
If you have a relationship with the salesperson, I'm sure they would know not to start at MSRP. If they do, they deserve to lose the sale. If a seller knows that you are a discount book buyer, the same thing applies.
If there are customers willing to pay full price for something, why wouldn't a salesperson start there? I think it was lrguy who said that he adds that he can make it work.
If you are so adverse to haggling, you should walk into a dealership (with the car you want to buy in mind) and state that up front and ask for a "real" price. If you get MSRP at that point, get upset and walk (I wouldn't blame you.)
It seems to me that you should try GG's method of doing your homework and offering a take it or leave it price. You shouldn't be letting the dealer throw out the first number.
Hmm, yet you accused dealers of stealing, being dishonest, and price gouging when they were getting MSRP for cars at the end of C4C's.
People were foolsih to want to pay MSRP (let's not get into the merits of C4C pls), so why would the dealer turn them down? :shades:
If you, or anyone for that matter, get to Chicago and can only do one tour you have to take one of the boat tours down the river and out onto the lake (just make sure that the Dave Matthews band isn't playing nearby).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Lets put it this way $75K may be a very reasonable price for a base 2010 Land Rover Range Rover with no options but its not affordable for me.
Or $25K is an affordable price for me for a car but not a reasonable price for say a Honda Fit.
In short affordable is the ability to pay, reasonable is the willingness to pay.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Fair enough...that is reasonable. I kind of test people first. I walk in to the dealership, I say I want a new XYZ5000 with leather a/c and bum warmers. Salesperson says, that car lists for $30k but lets see what we can do. I am Ok with that. If he says that car is $30k, let's write it up. I have lost my trust. I don't think he is necessarily dishonest - but I don't think he is acting on my behalf and I'd rather go somewhere else. I don't mind someone trying to get full retail, but if I know that is unreasonable based on the type of car, I'll try somewhere else. That salesman has failed my little test.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Example. I had a bowflex on craigs list - lots of interest and lots of very low offers - there is a lot more exercise equipment out there.
Cheap TV - worth get rid of fast price $20 - asked $30 (again planning on haggle factor) and people bought it for the full $30.
Either way I think the difference here is that Driver is talking about grinding on price as compared to straight forward negotiation.
So when high price A is presented along with strong arm tactics - it is a stupid price - however if price A is offered with an indication that open negotiation is there it is a good starting point.
BTW, I agree - High price A with strong arm tactics = me saying thanks and good luck with that...
Ah Driver - I did not see your last post, I think we are in agreement here though...
That's exactly how it's gone for me the last few dealers I've gone in to. After I make my firm offer, in a professional manner BTW, they start out by asking me to go in to great detail how I arrived at my figure, then go in to all kinds of stories how I was wrong and I need to pay more. Keep in mind, here in central Florida (home of the $699 dealer fee) it's become a cess pool.
It usually takes me repeating myself 3-4 times, sometimes more, each time my stress level is increasing, before they finally get the message. Sometimes I walk out empty handed, but other times I'm successful. They clearly didn't believe me the first time I said my offer was firm. I've even tried the email and phone approach but get "come on in and we'll talk about it".
The grinding can come from both parties.
I say the price is $XXXXX (MSRP), you say you're not paying MSRP. I say make me an offer then, and we start negotiations.
I am not going to drop my MSRP for you, hoping I'll randomly hit some magical number in your head. If you have a target price, you name it and I'll see if it's doable.
I told customers before that who sit down and tell me to offer them a price. :confuse: Right away I'll tell them: My offer is MSRP what's yours? I'm not playing poker with you, trying to figure out what price you have in your head or in your tightly folded piece of paper you're holding close to your chest. We're asking MSRP, if you'd like to make an offer lower than that please feel free to do so.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I happen to agree with the sales folks on this one. If you don't ask, you don't get.
Years ago I was selling an old Chevy for $950. I thought it was worth $950 and didn't build any "haggle room" into the price. Everyone who came to look offered less than I was asking even though my price was already pretty low. I of course was offended by the low balls and wouldn't budge.
After a few week I was just about ready to give up and sell it to the high offer @$750. While I was waiting for him to call me back a guy came in and paid my asking price without argument.
What I learned:
Almost everybody wants it cheaper no matter what the price.
There is usually some person who is different than "almost everybody" who will pay full price.
The only thing I'm still not clear on is why many dealerships bump the asking price of used cars up so high that it scares people off? That one guy in a hundred can't be buying that many cars.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I think of "affordable" as being what the customer CAN pay. He might pay more. Example: Joe Blow can afford Car A but would prefer Car B. Rather than buying Car A, he goes into his savings or borrows more money to buy Car B. Many people buy more car than they actually can afford.
Just my 2 cents: I'm not asking any salesman the price of a car until I decide on the car that I want. Why would I waste my time and his? There is one exception. Car A may come in two option packages. I might ask the price difference between the two.
Richard
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The house across the street from us sold for $10K more than the asking price.
My van sold for $50 less than I offered. (that should have told me something).
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Exactly, I don't have the gtime or patience for the dance.
Give me your MSRP or a more realistic price...I don't care. You will get more respect from me if you start out lower, because you are giving me credit for not being a bumpkin who thinks people would actually pay full Retail. If you want to give me full retail price (and have your fingers crossed under the desk hoping I'll take it at that price), I might buy from you, but you'll have to get real very fast.
Murph, I think people expect to haggle with craiglist. I think someone who knows how the car game works knows you don't pay full retail very often.`
Driver is talking about grinding on price as compared to straight forward negotiation.
That's a good point. I negotiate all day long on many issues, and that is part of the process. Grinding I don't have the time or patience, let's get down to business. Don't wear me out so I don't have the energy to get to your competitor...I think that is another sales tactic that is used. We spend maybe $100000 on trucking every year. Am I going to change carriers for 5% discount, or even 10%....no, I'd be changing every week. If someone can save me half then we are talking. That has actually happened....and that is why I'll listen to any pitch, but it better be good for me to change.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
My van sold for $50 less than I offered. (that should have told me something).
You never know. Once we put our house up for 20% over the recommended price.
Didn't sell so we dropped to market price plus a bit to negotiate. Still no sale. To get it moving we listed at the price we needed....and I told the realtor we are doing that to get people to look, but there is no negotiationg. It sold, the understanding was we went in with a low price to draw people in......but we weren't going to reduce the price further.
I think the seller gave you a friendly $50 off the van because he felt guilty. He probably had breakdowns every week, and kinda felt sorry for you.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That's not bad, I can work with that. But, I would expect 12 to 15% off a D3 car. So, if the car is $30,000 my offer is going to be $25,000 hoping to pay $26500.
I am not sure what the discounts are these days, but that would be fair to me. You would have gained more points in my book if you took 8 or 10% off to start and came up with $27000. I might just go for that. If you want me to start I am going to go low...probably 25k, and you will have to work hard to get me to $27k.
I am seldom desparate for a new car as well, generally I trade while I can still walk away and drive my present car....that can be a big advantage.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Hank Hill, of "King of the Hill", would never pay full boat on a car. Unless I missed an episode where "Bizzaro World" Hank Hill ruled. :confuse:
On the other hand I don't think most sales people can turn down a grinder right off the bat - so they get stuck with the unpleasant prolonged nasty negotiation over every nickle and dime - not fun if you as me.
The one time I sold a car using the Trading Post (long before Craigs List), the caller said, "I'll take it. Have you sold it yet." He really wanted a Pace Car Mustang (79). I should have charged him a document fee!!!!
Made me wish I'd asked a little more in the ad; but it had been advertise for 3-4 weeks with only one earlier call.
My other sales experiences were selling baseball tickets. One called offered a lowball price about 1/4 or 1/5 because he wanted to give them to the employees of his school bus company. He said that he was in business therefore he should get a lower price. I can't give my retort-censored. Later an attorney called offering slightly less than I asked. Didn't complain that 10 games had been picked by the person who had helped me win the contest for him and his son to attend.
I'd hesitate today selling anything online.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The pricing practices in dealerships are what I call "jackpot" approach. The salespeople are conditioned to think it's paramount to maximize a chance of a big payout on every single "up". The pay structure is clearly reflecting that philosophy. All the salesmen (and their managers and the owners) can see is the payouts that worked out - what they cannot see of course, are the lost ups. Why is that? The profits from jackpot are easy to count than those lost sales. Just like in a casino - we always hear ding ding somewhere in a background, meaning somebody gets paid - just not us. We don't know how much money the person has put in a slot prior the payout. All to make us put money in in hope that next time it's us.
I noticed one more thing over the years - no matter how much it is, it is never enough. Buyer agrees to MSRP, they just get hit with bunch of add-ons, regardless - actually they see it as an actual license to roll out every single "valuable" product they could think of. I was once scouting a Matrix/Corolla (not recently, but I'm sure it still holds). Nice, small cars, generally liked by their owners. They have small spread between the invoice and retail price - one could even say under normal market conditions (not now, obviously), when supply meets demand, it would be reasonable to pay full sticker rather than argue over a few hundred bucks. Nice quick transaction, no big loss. A few hundred bucks not workd arguing and dealer's got to eat, too right? But wait the minute - I forgot - great Toyoguard package was preinstalled by the distributor on the car (and of course on all other ones, too) - ding, ding, ding - $599. Oh, we also need to add our service dealer/whatever fee, $699 for you know, washing the car and stuff. So now instead of being a few hundred over invoice, we are now $1200 above "what's on the sticker" FOR EXACTLY THE SAME PRODUCT with no value added whatsoever (yeah, yeah - paint sealant and scotch guard were added). That's why in Florida we pay "below invoice" for those Toyotas or Hondas, of course after all add-ons the totals are still well above invoice, but who would notice that?
Ultimately, the forced add-ons and rampant fees are the reason why MSRP is not a legitimate price anymore - even on those cars in decent demand or small spread.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Works for me. Name the place & time & I'll be there.
Thanks, Farmer.
I used to tell people that farmers, fishermen & truck drivers depend more on the weather & their own skill than most folks -- it's called risk-taking. Most folks opt out. The red counties are red for a reason.
I don't talk about it much anymore -- too depressing.
I've enjoyed your posts over the past many months.
Boom,
Just curious, how would you handle somebody like bobst (poster who left the forum) whose approach was "Give me your best price. You only get one chance. If I like it, I'll buy it right now. If not, no hard feelings, thank you for your time."
Just wondering.
thanks.
You did miss it. There was an episode when they show Hank getting a special price from his favorite salesmen. He thought he was getting a great deal, but it turns out that he had been getting clubbed like a baby seal for the past 15 years. Peggy finally realized it when she went to negotiate and had done her internet research.
No word if she used Edmunds or not. :P
Mine, of course, doesn't count.
But don't pick on just dealerships. A lot of industries do it. Try buying a computer at Best Buy and you'll get offered service contract, cables, paper, CD's, power strip, installation services, etc. The real money is in the accessories.
Interesting idea, and very likely correct. A related concept is intermittent reward -- if the subject gets a huge payoff once in awhile, it'll be pursued forever -- think mice pushing buttons.
And here we are.
I have no problem with add-ons respecfully offered at checkout/F&I office as long as the approach is not too pushy. But courtesy of SET we have here "prepackaged" mop&glo called "Toyoguard" put on Monroney (yes, that's right) sticker by the distributor. That would be like Best Buy putting their extended warranty (priced of course at full retail) into the price on every TV they sell without any opt-out possibility. Then on top of that add $75 "shelf/storage/register fee" added to a $1000+ TV set at the register and voilla - we have Best Buy turning into SE Toyota dealer.
No - there is no comparison whatsoever. Everybody knows accessories are where money is. Doesn't mean everybody would use borderline coercive tactics to make their customers to buy those, just because they are profitable and "normal" sale is "not enough".
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Actually that wasn't his method. His method was the "make one and only one offer" approach. After some back and forth and the dealer finally realized that was going to be his one and only offer, they would sell or nor not sell, very simple.
That's funny. I am getting clubbed again, but at least it got things rolling...about 50 posts on a Sunday. That is an interesting observation too.
While I am here, let me tell you my story about haggling...which I hate. In China we took a boat ride...small boat...these Chinese guys rowed with all their might. Then they pulled the boats over rocks. Then jumped back in and rowed back. They worked like dogs. One of them made these polished stones and he wanted 10 Yuan for one stone. I didn't want to insult him, and I thought it was a good chance to haggle. I offered 5 Yuan. He was insistent, he wanted 10 Yuan. After 15 minutes of haggling in front of 20 people on the boat I came to the realization that 10 Yuan was worth $1.60, so we were arguing over 80 cents. Ridiculous!
I gave him the 10 Yuan bill, and he was full of happiness and pride, it was a small fortune for him, it was one crappy donut to me. And, that is one reason I hate to haggle.....it's demeaning and a waste of my time.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I really like your theory. That is why I think all these salespeople are taught to try and charge MSRP on all ups. The attitude is "What's the harm in asking".
The harm is your credibility has just gone out the window.
I'd like to know how many cars are actually sold at full MSRP?
I bet almost none, and yet you are willing to risk your credibility because your sales courses tell you to do this, and your sales managers tell you this is how to sell a car.
I think you are starting off with a negative if you start at MSRP - I know I better look out for my best interests so my defense system is working at full power.
I think it is just a starting point to get you into payments that you can afford. We have to charge you full MSRP, but, look at your low payments, just $300 month so who cares what you are paying for the car...just look at the easy payment plan?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
btw, don't brats and football go together? :P
In Texas I dont think there are any car shows-maybe a rodeo style truck release event with all cowboys and then driving the truck in dirt soil or a rough road with pebbles etc
Thanks.
However bobst who asks for best price and actually buys is a rare specimen. Most customers who use bobst's method will walk, giving excuses even after saying they'll buy today.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Doesn't Fitzmall go more for the volume with a fixed price approach?
wow. I had no idea. That's crazy. Why would anyone buy a Toyota in that region?n :confuse: