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Comments
I might not have gotten the exact words he used, but the approach I listed is the same you listed.
I'm still astonished at seeing the add-on leather on a model that did not come with leather. Thousands of dollars of add-ons on a Camry.
If you go a few miles, you are in another state, which is not in the SW region, and there is none of this distributor add-on crap and Toyotas are hundreds and thousands cheaper without them.
Even my elderly neighbor lady (mid-80's) was talking about a new Toyota for herself, and she knew she would go to Kansas to save a lot. I was very surprised about her knowing this. But, she goes daily to an elder club, and these people know everything that's going on in town.
Hope someone gets back to you. If there aren't any car shows I would suggest the Ford Museum. Last time I was there was 20 years ago, but I'd like to go again...it siworth seeing.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I know the NY auto show is in April at the Javits center, the Detroit show is usually in January.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
That's how most business is run. The bully, cry baby, tantrum throwing bobst gets all the attention.......while the descent customer who just wants a reasonable price up front has to go through all the hoops.
That is why I think the whole sales process should be reviewed. Give a fair price from the start, and you will keep more potential customers. I think there is a fear that if salespeople start at a realistic number the final number will be even lower. I am not so sure that will happen. It would be worth taking the next 6 ups and see what happens. It might work and it might not. You can only increase business if you try something new, business just doesn't magically prosper when you keep doing the same thing over and over......as they said in my entrepeneur course, "If you only do what you always do - you will only get what you always got". Think about it.......if nothing changes, how will sales increase? It won't be because you're a nice guy!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Well said. Actually, having used this many years to help break down the "dealership fear" people have walking in, I have found that affordable to them means meeting their car budget expectations. Everyone comes in with a price or payment they want to achieve. That is what is affordable. My job as part of meeting their wants and needs is to meet those expectations. True, most people pay more for a variety of reasons including a different model, more options, they forgot about taxes, etc. But invariably affordable to them has meant the car budget. Even people of wealth who walk into the store have a budget for the new car and to them that is what is affordable.
That’s exactly what I asked a couple years ago here on this forum when I was introduced to this SET thing. I don’t know about most but I’d have to fall in love with something else or do as ‘bolivar’s’ neighbor is thinking of doing; go out of state. If prices are hundreds more and approaching a grand, it would be worth it. Aside from SET in Florida, you have the ridiculous DOC fees, so that’s a double whammy in Florida when buying a Toyota. My Brother didn’t like it so he did something about it.
I mentioned this a while back that my Brother, who lives in Delray Beach, couldn’t come to terms when he was going to turn in his leased Solara convertible at the end of ’07. He leased that car in the Burgh area in ‘04 and drove it down to Florida before he moved there permanently. He was thinking of getting another one but the SET thing turned him off. So he decides to fall in love with an ‘08 Sebring hardtop and when the negotiating broke down with that car due to the DOC fees and the general snake pit atmosphere of buying in south Florida, he decided to visit a dealer in the Burgh area when he was going to be visiting during the holidays at the end of December ’07.
The local guy up here had several and was willing to deal so he bought. He was still going to come out ahead even after he looked in to one of these places that do this car delivery thing. It turned out he did better than that when our nephew said, “if you buy me a ticket home on one of those cheapy fare deals and I can stay a week to thaw out my bones, I’ll drive it down for you at the end of January”.
Some guys have all the luck.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I have to disagree with you on this one ‘driver’. I can’t believe I’m in the car biz guys corner on this one. This REALLY hurts me.
Since my experience with starting out with the internet approach, when I bought in ’05 and ’06, showed me that the dealers internet price was a good “starting point”, I figured that would apply when I looked at the internet price of the dealer I bought the Genny from in March. So, I tried to get him to lower that price. NO luck this time he wouldn’t budge and because I felt he had a very good price we did the deal. Like I’ve mentioned before, I bumped him up $600 on my trade but he had a good price as advertised for his car.
I also use the approach ”if you don’t ask you don’t get”. It’s just the way the car biz works (both sides).
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Seems like a pretty good value. My question is, what are the chances you would actually pay that price and drive out the door....no haggle - no hassle.
2010 DODGE GR CARAVAN CANADIAN VALUE PKG $88 WKLY TAX INCLUDED
Price: MSRP $29,995 Sale Price $17,999
Payment: $130*
Body Style: Minivan
Fuel Type: Flexible Fuel
Transmission: 4 Speed Sport Automatic O/D
Drive Train: Front Wheel Drive
Exterior: N/A
Interior: Grey, Cloth
Stock #: New 2010 Grand
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
You just won a point for me JM. You are an intelligent buyer, you got the lowest price possible, you realized that, what difference did it make if they gave you a phony MSRP? Better than going through the grinder.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Another case of "I care what I can see", which is profits from the sales that were made, not losses on those customers who went elsewhere cause they couldn't stand it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bobst wasn't that kind of guy. He was, as I recall, unfailingly soft-spoken & polite. He disliked unpleasantness & he felt that his particular approach made buying cars relatively painless for both sides.
When he walked into a dealership, he knew exactly what he wanted to buy & how much he wanted to pay for it. All he wanted from the sales staff was a simple "yes" or "no" to the price that he offered to pay. If the answer was "no", Bobst would shake hands, wish everyone a good day & leave. He was as far from a bully, cry baby or tantrum thrower as a person could be. He hated rudeness & raised voices.
I'm not sure if I agree with his approach, but it could work for someone who dislikes haggling.
My mistake, I wasn't around at the time of the Great Bobst, so that was my impression. But, I have to agree with him, if you want to do a sale as painlessly as possible, it is a great method. Once again, most people are intelligent enough to know phony MSRP's, why not just get on with the final negotiations.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
You haven't heard?
He finally ran into a dealer that made a baby seal out of him.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
The Caravans and the Rams are our best sellers right now and have always been.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I hope he's staying healthy because he's a good guy.
Like me, he go's back to the beginning fo these forums when they started in 1996 or 1997.
I suspect he simply got bored and left like so many others have.
Once before, he suddenly surfaced after being gone a long itme but not this long. I think it's been years now.
Soimeone tick him off?
I know there are experts that have worked all this out, the best method to hook a buyer. But, I think things have changed but the car dealers are still selling cars like they did 20 years ago...except now there is the internet which makes it even more important for car dealers to check their selling methods.
People don't trust government, politicians, or almost anything any more. So, when a salesperson says the price of that car is MSRP, I think you lose points on being trustworthy in the eyes of the buyer (this is different than saying you are dishonest-it is a perception thing, and trust has to be won very quickly).
I know I have left when told the price was full list, or the dealer will knock off just a few hundred dollars. I feel the dealer thinks I am not knowledgeable, or isn't willing to negotiate.
We were considering an Audi for my wife and this is what happened at the first dealer:
I said we were just doing our preliminary work, so I just needed to know how much the car was. He gave me MSRP and he was very nice and I am sure I could negotiate. I would have gone back to him.
Then we went to the 2nd dealer:
We went for a test drive and the salesman said the price would be about $4000 less than MSRP - without any dancing. I was impressed and would have bought the car...it was close, but my wife liked another car more. I really liked the fact the 2nd dealer gave me a really good hassle free reduced price. Though I liked the first salesman a little better, I think I would come to a price faster and easier with the second salesman, so that's where I would have bought.
By the way, the 2nd salesman was a smoker, and though it isn't a big issue personally, I have noticed that salesman who smoke sometimes can't be found, because they are off on a back lot or someplace trying to get a cigaret in between customers.
I haven't got an answer yet, "How Many Cars are Sold at full MSRP?" My guess, when we eliminate the hot sellers and the rare models would be less than 3%.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Especially when there's trades involved and money can be shifted to whichever column to show a full MSRP sale etc.
Look at it this way. Are you asking what porice we quote when you first step into the showroom, or when we're sitting down and negotiating on a car you want to buy?
If you step in the showroom and ask what's the price of that one - I will quote MSRP. Why would I discount it right off the bat if it might not even be a car you want? Discounting something right away shows that:
a: youi're a weak salesperson, you don't know how to build value in a product and the only way you attract customers is by discounting everything.
b: you're doing yourself and your brand a disservice as you don't believe your product is worth the sticker price that's on the window.
Now once you pick a car and we sit down, and we "build" a car with options you like, I will once again say the price with all the options is $XXXXX. Would you like me to work out payments for you, or a cash price? The rebates differ for either one.
You would then ask me to do one or the other. I would go and do that. And then we'd probably start negotiations because you'd say the payments are too high or the price is this or that. But if I show you all the numbers, and work out payments based on MSRP, and you say ok let's do it, why then would I stop you and say ......waaaaaait a minute, not so fast Mr carbuyer, I need to give you a discount first before we sign the papers.
It doesn't make sense in any business or industry or any transaction.
You might see it as offensive if I don't offer a discount, but you are a very very very tiny minority. Most people will ask for something they want. You don't ask you don't get.
For example, do you voluntarily give bums on the street money even if they're not begging for it because it's the nice thing to do?
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Richard
from your point of view 80 cents is not worth worring about - yet from his point of view it was the world. If 5 Yuan would have still been profitable you have a huge margin.
Looking at cars somebody (and this is NOT me!) who can buy $60K MSRP cars without thinking might view the $3 - $5K they could save the same way you viewed the 80 cents, right?
I guess at the end of the day there is no one size fits all model for starting price
BTW - replying before I have read the rest of the string here...
I'm not so sure. My brother-in-law is a busy doctor. On his last three cars, he rode by the car dealer's place at night. He saw what he wanted. The next day he called from his office. He told the dealer to come and get his old Lexus and bring him the new one. He also told the dealer to work out the price, send him the paperwork, and that a check would be put in the mail. I always scream when he does this. He tells me that he doesn't have the time to argue over "a few hundred dollars" when he could have seen three more patients and earned the difference. It's hard to argue with that.
We have a good friend who is in real estate. She buys her cars over the telephone. She gives them the make and the color. They deliver the paperwork along with the car. She writes the check for MSRP. When I tried to encourage her to negotiate a little, she simply said that the price of the car was the price of the car. It's hard to argue with that mindset as well.
Now, if I know two people who pay MSRP, multiply that by thousands of people who also know two people who pay full price. All of that adds up to a large number of people who pay MSRP. Also, factor in the number of elderly, women, and young people who actually don't know any difference. They have never heard of negotiations or grinding. I think that you would be amazed at what you would find out there.
Richard
Come on, Driver. I realize that most people don't like smokers, but this is ridiculous. As a smoker, I can tell you from experience that it takes seven minutes to smoke a cigarette. It would take another salesman longer to drink a soda and eat a pack of crackers. I doubt that your salesman missed seeing any customers.
My secretary used to time me. She said that I could drink half of a soda, smoke a cigarette, go to the toilet, and wash my hands in twelve minutes. I didn't believe in keeping clients waiting.
Since 22% of the U.S. population smokes, cut us a little slack.
Richard
They slam doors let their kids jump on the seats and just beat the hell out of the cars. Then they complain because they can't adjust the seats. We have to unhook the batteries. Can you imagine kids blowing horns etc?
They dent the cars up and manhandle them to death.
Anything that isn't attached will get stolen. We have to remove shift knobs and anything else that is loose. Once someone stold the DIPSTICK out of an Odyssey!
I know...easy for me to say.
"Driver and GG's Grindless Car Delaership"....... where we value your
time and stress levels. Makes buying a car, a hassle free experience!.
Nice thought. If I can find a bank to loan me.....oh.....what?....about $15M on my signature, I'm all in.
I know Saturn tried the approach. They actually succeeded at it for a good long while. Then, their products became uncompetitive, and GM started tanking. Result? No more Saturn.
Fitzmall.com is pretty close to this. They state a price (a very good price) on their stock and incoming stock. They state their policies and fees up front.
There's a Toyota dealer fairly close to me that does this, too. They put their prices up front on any vehicle once you walk into their showroom. If it's a model that's pretty plentiful, like a Camry, I think they price them at $400 over invoice. By all accounts, they're the largest Toyota dealer in this area. They're the ones who keep their stock under one roof.
I'd expect that they lose some of the "I'll shop you for $50" type of buyers. But, I've always thought why would a dealership want those types of buyers anyway?
Have a bunch of "product specialists" who take care of the feature/product presentation/test drives. Post good prices. Market the dealership as "in and out in an hour", and you've got yourself a business plan. Post a policy that every minute it takes to get you into the F&I office after you come to a deal, you rebate them a dollar per minute in cash. Meter starts running at 15 minutes.
Still, with the wealth of information we've all posted here that's readily available, with several different sources, I don't know why more people just don't come to a number they're willing to pay, and offer it as a "yes or no" proposition. Both the customers and the dealerships are afraid of leaving an extra nickel on the table. That's an adversarial relationship from the get go.
I think it's a great idea. Employ more F&I guys to move the transaction along quickly.
Here is another interesting point about the cars in this movie. I am beginning to wonder if Alfred Hitchcock had any knowledge about automobiles. You would at least think that he would have had some technical advisors for this movie. I had thought all along that Janet Leigh was driving a 1957 Ford, and that she traded for a 1958 Ford. I'm not so sure now. After watching the movie so many times, I believe that she traded in a 1958 Ford for a 1958 Ford. That wouldn't have seemed very smart. Surely, the salesman would have made a comment. You can see the rear ends of both cars clearly at different points in the movie. They both look the same to me. The front grills are a little harder to spot. Alfred Hitchcock was a stickler for details. That is part of what made his movies so great. It is difficult for me to believe that he would allow his character to trade for the exact same year and model car in a different color. If any of you see this movie again, check this out and let me know your thoughts.
Richard
Richard
That was something that bugged me the last time I was at the Seattle Auto Show. I wasn't sure if people had already stolen them or if they were removed prior. I found out the latter.
I totally understand the reasoning and I agree it is justified but it took something away when you sat in one. Of course, the locked cars were even worse because then I had no idea if I could fit. Headroom is the first thing I check on a car.
Let's see, when you walk into the dealership I may be with another client, discussing a deal or deals wth the SM or F&I person, checking out a car, talking to a customer of mine who is in service, in the bathroom, at lunch. That is in addition to calling and/or e-mailing my prospects and keeping in touch with my owners on a periodic basis. Oh yes, I may be doing a stock walk to remain current with the lot vehicles or in a training session. I might even be in the bathroom. A good salesman does not just sit around waiting for something to happen - those days are long gone. And I am a non-smoker that may be hard to find at times.
ps I don't remember who wrote this, Capt, but I'll stick it in this post. >> "you don't know how to build value in a product" , but the "build value" into something that's already built. Now I'm confused. How does one build value?
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
next lace (my daughter wanted to see while we were out running errands in that area). Young guy, very friendly, got the keys to everything, including the diesel they had just gotten in! answered pelnty of questions, gave us plenty of time to look and play, and no hassles or pressure. Took my name in case they get a 4 door in (supply is short right now).
So, if I decide to get one, guess where I am going to go?
sadly, since I always get fixated on something that barely exists, probably whichever dealer has one to sell!
although I would prefer the 2nd guy, and most likely, this would be an order situation, so might as well go there.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Your answer and boomers were very good and convinced me there is a case for asking for the full retail price up front. The way you do it does make sense and if it works, then I am ok with it.
Remember though, in my experience, I did like the salesman who offered me a discount on the Audi...and I thought that would be a fight.
You both made very good points, and I really like the time you took to explain so your viewpoint so well.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Your reply was excellent and I appreciate you taking the time to make these points.
I am curious what would happen if someone tried a realistic up front price, but you made an excellent case for asking for full MSRP up front.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Excellent observation. remember too, the business guy who can afford the $60,000 car writes it off. He could be in a 50% tax bracket or his incorporated company could be buying the car.....so it could be costing him $30k or $40k in real dollars. The extra $3000 could be like an extra $1500, or even nothing if his company is buying the car. And, the trade in value is worth more...so it is exactly like paying 80 cents more for the stone.
Great example murph!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I have nothing against smokers. But, when we looked for a car there were salesmaen who we couldn't find, because they had to get a cigaret break in there.
It was an inconvenience and in this case showed a lack of respect for our time...we were on time for our appointment.
I am just saying smoke if you wish, but don't let it interfere with your customers.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
This Saturday we went to a local Chrysler dealer who was advertising a 2008 G37 coupe that he was interested in. I went along to keep him from getting skinned too bad.
A very nice greenpea was helping us. He knew absolutely nothing about this car but said he knew just about everything about Chryslers. We had checked the carfax before going and knew that this car was originally sold in March, 2009 and it only had 12,000 miles so it was practically new. Someone had traded it on a Jeep Wrangler, according to the salesman.
After seeing and driving the car, it looked and drove like it was brand new and my son knew he had found the car that he wanted. The car was advertised at $31,500. and I figured we could get it for $29,000. or so. Our first offer was for $27,500. Greenpea presented the offer to his manager then came back and said that they had already reduced the car from $33,000. and his SM would not budge from the $31,500. I said fair enough, then I won't budge from $27,500. so take that number back to him. Off he went.
Well, this must have really tweaked the SM because he soon swept into the office and started telling us what a great car this was and that he was offering it at a more than fair price, etc. He was almost at the belligerent level which I thought was kind of funny, but it was late in the day, I had never dealt with a Chrysler dealer, so I cut him some slack, kept my cool and asked if he could get closer to what we were offering. He said, well, if it will make you feel like you "won", I could knock off $100. bucks.
My son really wanted this car, knew that price was not that bad, but I could see that he had just about had enough of this guy. He just said that it looked like we were wasting each others time so we got up and walked.
The greenpea followed us to the car apologizing and we felt bad for him. He said he would work on his SM so please give him another chance. We just said to call us if anything changed but we had some other cars to look at.
The greenpea called about 10 AM this morning with a new price of $28,500. We were both busy today so my son told him that sounded like we could do business. We are going in Tuesday morning to see what happens, so any advice would be appreciated. (to be continued)
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Simply put, building value in a product begins what is important to your customer. Then it is taking the features of the product and translating them into benefits of priority to the customer. The more benefit that the customer sees in your product, the more value the product has to them over other products. Therefore the more likely the customer is to buy the product and because it has more value to them the more they may pay to obtain the product.
For instance, you are buying a shirt. The choice is between 2 and the salesman shows you how the more expensive shirt is no iron, saving you the time effort and expense of the dry cleaner. Then he shows you how the thread count will provide longer life. Finally, he shows you how the vibrant colors of the more expensive shirt look better on you. He has built value in your eyes and you are more likely to buy the more expensive product.
People buy Hybrids because of perceived value despite a long ROI on the investment.
Richard
I haven't kicked a Toyota tire since I cross-shopped them aganist the Accord I bought in 2002.
I was just astonished at the add-ons, on a separate sticker, but one that looked really close to the factory sticker.
Pinstripes, mud guards, auto dim inside mirror, paint and interior guard, mag wheels that looked about like the stock ones but with a $1,200 addon and no credit for the stock wheels, and, as I said previously, installing leather in a cloth interior model. A $20,000 Toyota would have $3,000 add-on.
Nice going...I am with Richard, try for $28k. I think the SM knew your son was emotionally attached to the car and wouldn't let it go easily.....so he didn't lower his price.
When he realized he would lose the sale, he got more realistic. I think the greenpea knew what was going on, and he hasn't been toughenned up to the business yet......if it was just him you would have got it for 27.5k.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Once again, I don't mind if someone chooses to smoke.
But, it has gone through my mind, 7 minutes an hour is 10% of an hour, then the time to find cigarets, your matches or lighter, clean out ash trays.....extra cleaning in the office. I think people who smoke should be paid 10% less!!!! LOL
By the way, we have people in the warehouse who HAVE TO go outside for 15 minutes every hour for a cigaret. The others keep working away. I am not being judgemental, that is just a fact.
By the way, I know that salesman was smoking...not going to the washroom. He was in the backlot by himself. Unless he goes for a washroom break in the backfield he couldn't be doing much else....and there was a cloud of smoke around him too...ha ha, but I would bet $100 he had a cigaret.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In sales one doesn't actually build value but either points out things of value or creates the impression of value.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Richard, F&I should not be a problem as my son has the proceeds from selling his other two cars and will be paying cash. That might freak them out. Also there is only a $49. DOC fee. I was expecting at least $200. so was pleasantly surprised when I learned this.
I will check back in when I get back today. Here's hoping there are no unpleasant surprises !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
First of all if all a salesperson does is points out things of value in a product that is not important to and no benefit of importance is seen by the customer it means absolutely nothing. I tell people that I could bore them all day long going through the features of the vehicle, but I need to know what is important to them so I can find the benefits that relate to them.
Sales people are not magicians. I cannot create an impression of value. I have to relate things of value to the customer and build on those for my product to rise to the top of his list.
I've thwarted more than one deal in my own business practices because a buyer was belligerent (usually a purchasing agent....who wasn't really the end buyer, at all). There's just no good reason for that type of behavior, with the buyer or the seller.
I'm cordial, unless insulted, irritated or belittled by any sales person. I expect the same in return when conducting business. I've found myself falling into the "arguing" game, but not often. And, when I have, I'm always irritated with myself for being drawn into it.