You have to "build this vehicle" using a 2009 Tribeca Limited. It'll work every time. I've done it on three computers, one of which bounces through a server in Houston. It's always there.
I was going to be a HS English teacher but they sent me into Compton to observe.
Another English major!!!!! This is getting too funny.
I think you made a wise decision not to go into teaching. I know some people love it, but I taught elementary school for 3 years, long enough to get a permanent certificate to go back to it if I decided to, or if I got destitute.
The final day camme when a Grade 6 student went running around at recess, holding up a Playboy centrefold. I took the magazine away from him. Then about 6 of them came over and started shouting they knew I would read it when they went home. So, I ripped it up, right before their eyes and through it in the giant garbage bin on the playground.
3 minutes later kids are running all over the field waving bits of paper and bragging about which body parts they got from the garbage bin.
And that, was the illustrious end to my teaching career.
I am not the greatest on the computer (or for grammar as many here can tell you), but how do you look up a 2009 model. I just get a 2010 and there is no discount. One thing I learned was the front looks a lot more normal (lloks like a large Forester), not sure if they changed that in 09 or 10.
You can look up prices but I don't know how you build an 09. Suburu
We're supposed to get 2 to 3 inches by morning (a mere dusting for some parts of the globe) so that's when I'll find out.
Strange kind of Global warming?????
Good luck in the snow.....remember the first snow fall of the year is a challenge, everyone forgets how to drive when they see snow for the first time in the season.
That makes us blood brothers oldfarmer. :surprise: I dual majored in psych and business administration. That's partly why I'm always interested in the dialogue between customers and salespeople in the sales stories here. Generalized descriptions of events aren't nearly as fun. GG always has good descriptive and detail oriented stories, maybe he'll come out of the bullpen and help that lady friend of his buy another car. :P
not a psych major, but i did take a class first semester freshman year. it was 3 days a week @8:30 am. went to the first class, last class, one other and the 5 quizzes/tests. it was one of those classes held in a large auditorium setting and attendance was not taken. at the final, the prof showed up wearing mirrored sunglasses and said he didn't expect anyone would finish the test in the allotted 2 hours. after 45 minutes, i walked down and handed in my test. he said 'are you really done?', i said 'yup' and walked out. never saw him again. ended up with a 'B', so i was ok with that. never wanted to pursue psychology after that class. when i buy a car, i don't want to play games, but i could.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
"theoretically" because we know that never actually happens in real life.
I think my wife can come pretty close. She was a family therapist and I think she can read people very well...most of the time. That was why she probably thought I was such a good catch.
Seriously, she is good at telling who is honest, who doesn't seem trustworthy, who is sincere, etc., maybe with about 82% accuracy. Definitely a much higher average than the general public. Not sure how much comes from psych courses, or just from intuition, I think most comes from the latter.
Your description of psych class pretty much sums up my journalism class. I actually learned some things in psych.
That journalism prof was so dull that he caused me to drop journalism from my list of possible majors. It was at teh time a small department and I'd have had him several times.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Saw a news article this morning that said all the 2009 cars are gone because of C4C. They said that the bargains were now on the 2010 models because of big incentives and because there is still a shortage of used cars (again because of C4C).
So what's the real story? They had a saleswoman in the article who said: Under C4C you could get a $4000 discount by turning in your $3000 car. Now you can get 0% finance worth $4000 plus $3000 for your car which makes a $7000 discount."
So my question for the sales pros:
1) Are the 2009s really all gone? If so, good job!
2) Are the deals really that great on the 2010s?
3) Are used cars still in short supply? I never understood why crushing a clunker would dry up supply for late models.
I'm really curious about my last question because as I drive by the Manheim auction I've noticed better quality cars coming out lately. More pick-ups and Hondas and less beat-up domestic stock.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
BS in Computer Science here, with a minor in general business. Our syntax and grammar is all done in binary. :sick: My counselor said all I had to do was to take 3 extra courses (including a quarter of observing), student teach, and I could have a dual degree, including one in education. I got as far as taking the observation course in an inner-city high school (where I was only about 4 years older than the high school students). Decided.....no way.
Update on the '98 Benz. Talked to my friend last night. He advertised it in the local community newspaper (published once/week). Got a couple of bites, except the potential buyers all said they had to get financing (on a $7K car? :surprise: ). Sounds like he's got it priced right since he said none of the lookers tried to negotiate. Or, perhaps they want him to carry the note for them. Not sure.
In any event, I don't expect anything to happen between now and the new year. So, I'll just "cool my jets" for now.
Looks like a couple of inches of snow in the OH valley, with two more coming tomorrow. First of what usually is normally only 2-3 snows we get in these parts. Perhaps dreaming of the elusive "White Christmas".
My situation may be different because of the nature of the animal sell. I have VERY few 09s left but because of demand and supply the 2010s are basically MSRP cars. From what I have seen the shortage of late model used cars can be tied as much to the demise of leasing as to the CFC program. If you see the $3000 push pull or drag type ads read the fine print. The trade must be disclosed prior to negotiations. Guess where he difference between the $3000 trade allowance and the $1500 ACV will be - added to the cost of the new car.
1) Are the 2009s really all gone? If so, good job!
Yes for the most part all the 2009s are gone. I am sure there are still a few distressed merchandise left. We have four Saabs left but that is better then the 20 something we had over the summer and none of the Saabs are expensive. We were totally sold out of new 2009 Volvos but were able to get two more from port a couple of weeks ago.
From what I can tell they were part of a fleet sale that fell through as the only option they have is bluetooth phone so probably an outside sales reps car. The company probably went out of business and couldn't pick up the fleet cars. There were 10 or 11 avaliable and we could get two of them.
According to our computer system we have 26 new 2009s in stock throughout the whole company but I know that is not completely right. There are some cars on that list that are sold but haven't been removed from the computer for some reason. I would guess we have 18 or 19 new 2009s left and the majority of them are loaners for the service departments.
2) Are the deals really that great on the 2010s?
As usual the answer is it depends. I am sure for some 2010s you could get a deal just as good or very close to a 2009 but that is not true every where. Things are better then they were when we were closing out the 2009s and supply is way down. Give it a few more months and if sales don't pick up some more and supply increases some then you will see nearly identical deals on most 2010s that you got at the end of 2009. 3) Are used cars still in short supply? I never understood why crushing a clunker would dry up supply for late models.
Yes they are in very short supply cars but not because of C4C. Crushing 700,000 junk or near junk cars doesn't really do anything to the supply of 1-3 year old late model used cars.
I got into a debate with someone else at another forum about this and pulled some historical auction data to prove my point.
I am just going to repost that response here because I don't feel like doing new research. THe data is only a couple of months old so the numbers have changed some but the basic premise is the same. The supply of off lease new cars has dropped off to almost nothing and some of the people that bought new cars in the past are instead buying 1-2 year old used cars to save money. You have much less supply and slightly more demand so higher prices on the used cars and a shortage of good 1-3 year old cars.
The guy I was debating posted this article
The ghost of Cash For Clunkers is still haunting us. From WMAZ-13 in Georgia:
No, it didn't or if it did only by a couple hundred bucks.
We are currently the 6th and probably by the end of this month the 5th highest pre-owned Volvo dealer in the country. Used car prices have been going up for a year or so when compared to same year car with similar mileage and equipment. Long before C4C was even proposed used car prices were steadily rising as the supply of off lease and rental cars dried up. With fewer people buying new cars fewer people are trading in their old cars too. All of that is driving up prices a lot more then 700,000 mostly junky cars coming off the roads.
Through my Galves subscription I have access to historical wholesale pricing on almost any car going back 18-24 months. Pick a car make and model and I will check the historical data then post a screen shot of it.
Just for example and because it is a car I am fimilar with check out this pricing on XC90s. Notice how in May of 2008 base cars, and for the XC90 a base car was FWD, no leather, no sunroof, five passenger, had a base price of $25,000 with base mileage of 19,000.
Over the next few months prices kept dropping as gas went higher and the economy looked to be falling off a cliff. The prices were behaving how you would expect them too until we got into winter and prices kept falling quickly because the economy was so bad. Normally prices on a vehicle like that would stabilize in winter. That stability didn't kick in till mid December well after it normally does.
In September of last year you could expect base trade in value to be around 20,000 dollars on a 23,000 mile XC90. Over a year later the same trade in value is true for a year older XC90 with 12,000 more miles.
There has been a nearly 5,000 dollar increase in base price since January while base mileage has gone up by 8,000 miles. That is freaking nuts and it is not because of C4C it all it is because there are no new cars to replace those used cars once they leave the market.
The trades we saw on C4C were almost all garbage. There were a couple of SUVs traded in that looked ok but they were problematic models or dead makes, got a couple of Isuzus for example, so they were worth very little.
He basically ignored the hard data which is what this person does when you actually have hard data.
The trades you saw up there may have been garbage, but according to the government list linked above, the media, and personal observations, most them weren't dead makes or particularly problematic models (of the import marques).
Also, "a couple hundred bucks" can be the difference between a good car and a crappy car (or no car) down in the lower end of the used car spectrum. Been there, done that.
(So much for 'destroying me with your Galves data...
I then replied with this.
But you completely ignored the data. Used car prices were increasing long before C4C and are going to continue to increase long after it. Not because we junked 700,000 crappy cars, a small minority of which might have been ok, but because the supply of new cars which become used cars has been constrained too much.
The reason I picked the XC90 to show you historical data is because it is a car that in general wasn't eligible for C4C on either side. If C4C was the primary reason for an increase in prices then its value shouldn't have gone up really at all. On the new car side it didn't get could enough gas mileage. The only new XC90 that got 18 or better combined is the 2010 XC90 FWD model. Volvo only sells a handful of FWD models a year and most of them go to fleets not dealerships
Well I guess that makes at least 3 of us. BS in Psychology and a minor in History. I have to admit that every psychology professor I had was completely nuts, had no common sense, and some had a mean streak.
I had one professor who only gave multiple choice tests. Now normally multiple choice tests are easy but this lady's tests were pure murder:
First, the questions were pretty hard and if you got it right you got 5 points
Second, she would always include the choices of "none of the above" and "all of the above"...and make all the answers very plausible.
Third, the real ringer was, if you did not know the answer and left the question blank, you got zero points...but....if you answered the question and got it wrong (just took a guess) you got -5 points. So you could actually end up with a negative score on the entire test !! :mad:
Wow never had a post so long that it cut part of it off.
Here is the last few paragraphs.
On the trade in side most XC90s would be worth too much to be clunked. According to the data only four were submitted to be clunked and I guarantee you all but one, the 2006 model, were XC90 T6s that needed a transmission and turbo work. The 2006 is a little unusual but if it had been in a serious accident and had a ton of miles then it wouldn't be worth much. A XC90 can survive a pretty bad accident and still be drivable but need thousands upon thousands of dollars in repairs to actually be fixed. Four cars out of the 100,000 plus XC90s Volvo has sold since 2002 will not effect pricing or supply one bit. Obviously C4C has nothing to do with the increase in pricing on XC90s and it doesn't have any significant effect on pricing for any other model either.
The price of used cars won't normalize until there are enough new car sales to increase supply again. Now what was the primary goal of C4C again? Oh yeah right temporarily bump new car sales to jump start the system and get inventory moving again. That is exactly what is needed to get the supply levels back up to a normal level.
Make that 4. I had a double major in English and history with a minor in psychology. I taught psychology the last few years of my teaching career, before becoming an administrator.
As a group, car salesmen are interesting to observe. They usually have strong personalities (definitely extroverted), think analytically, and have rocky relationships in their personal lives. This is partly because of the stress of their chosen career path. There is a misconception about car salesmen. Actually, they are very intelligent for the most part. I had a professor who used to say that car salesmen were just frustrated psychologists. They enjoy dealing with people and are good at mind games. Makes sense, doesn't it?
Please remember that the above comments are general in nature. There are plenty of exceptions. There is one thing that I have noticed about the regular customers here. Many of them actually want to be car salesmen. There are two of them who show it in every post that they write. Can you identify those two?
The supply of off lease new cars has dropped off to almost nothing and some of the people that bought new cars in the past are instead buying 1-2 year old used cars to save money.
I agree. I also think you proved your point very well. However, I am one of the exceptions and while I know people my age aren’t the majority of the car buying public, deep down, I know I did my small part to help keep the economy going. I can only do so much.
Son No. 2 said it best, when he heard that I traded in a near perfect 3 year old car with less than 13K miles in March for a new car, when he said, “I can remember when you would have been looking for a used car like that. Man, have you changed”. :confuse: My response was, “Yes I have. I can now do things differently than when I had to be concerned with a house full of people. Like, feeding, clothing, keeping warm and educating you and your older brother. At least I didn’t have to do the education thing with your mother (she has always been a know-it-all ) but those other things I did have to give some thought to. I now only have to be concerned with doing those things for your mother and me. She still eats like a bird. OK, the clothing thing could still be a problem and she never did like it when the house was too warm. So, one thing out of three I can handle”.
Finally, it looks like economy has made a small step in the right direction. I now see more new cars on the road than I did this past summer. It’s about time.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Yes, sometimes companies can lease you any makes or models because they can usually negotiate a good dealer to dealer deal.
For example we (Chrysler dealer) sold a new honda to a customer. We bought the Honda at little over cost from my old Honda dealer where i worked at, marked it up a bit and financed it for our client.
Dealer to dealer transactions are usually simple and straightforward nearly instant cash type deals, hence we can get a low price, and then we can resell it or re lease it to our own clients.
Deals like that are typically same price as one would get with the original selling dealer, and in some cases maybe a few hundred bucks cheaper for the end user. The reason they're done is that some store might be able to offer financing or leasing as you mentioned that the other dealer can't. In our case teh customer didn't have perfect credit, and Honda couldn't approve them where as we could.
Also in order for this to happen, the customer has to be dead serious, with a non refunable deposit left, because no dealer is going to be stuck with a new off make vehicle.
A dealer can take the money off at the point of sale on after tax or before tax rebates.
Or you can finance an entire purchase and get a cheque for the rebate from the dealer if you need the cash. So say you get $8000 rebate in cash, it's more like a personal loan tacked onto your car loan.
Houdini said: I have to admit that every psychology professor I had was completely nuts, Richard said: I taught psychology the last few years of my teaching career, before becoming an administrator. I am sure there are exceptions, and he didn't want you to take it personally. Can you identify those two? I don't have a clue :confuse:
sometimes companies can lease you any makes or models because they can usually negotiate a good dealer to dealer deal.
Thank you for the explanation - much appreciated. Twice I leased an Oldsmobile from a Ford dealer (two different dealers) and I am pretty sure I got the cars for less than I would have from an Olds dealer.
Your answer has answered a question I have thought about for many years, and I particularly like the part about one dealer not offering financing while another will, that explains a lot too.
Used car prices were increasing long before C4C and are going to continue to increase long after it
Good answer and very well explained. After reading your answer I would agree that C4C had little to do with the shortage of used cars.
Seems salespeople are in agreement that with the lack of leasing the rotation of used cars coming in off lease is a big factor. That is going to be difficult to replace.....leasing was an ingenious way to make sure you had constant buyers for new cars, and a steady stream of used cars.
Do you think this will be a problem for dealerships who don't lease any more?
Third, the real ringer was, if you did not know the answer and left the question blank, you got zero points...but....if you answered the question and got it wrong (just took a guess) you got -5 points.
That reminds me of a story one of my undergrad profs told. He took a class with tests like that. They were also so hard that the class average was actually a negative number. Several students figured that if they put their name on the test and handed it in blank they would be above the class average. :shades:
On top of everything else there were only about 12 people in that particular class and I was by far the dumbest one. Got through totally on charm and good looks !!
The M5 I'm stalking has been on the lot for almost three weeks, so I'm thinking that they will probably send it off to the auction in two weeks or less. The Trade-In Value thread is pretty much comatose, so I'm wondering if anyone here might have an idea what the sled may bring at auction: 2000 BMW M5 dark gray, black interior, NAV, CD changer, new Michelin Pilot all-seasons, 91K miles, fresh detail. Louisville, KY. Thanks!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The following was sent to you last year. I hope that you don't mind seeing it again.
Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the dealer Not a car was stirring, not even a stealer. The vehicles were lined up by the door with care, In hopes that an up soon would be there.
The salesmen were nestled all snug in their sheds While visions of customers danced in their heads. And dealer in his plaid jacket and I in my cap, Had just settled down for a long winter's chat.
When out on the lot there arose such a clatter, I sprang from my chair to see what was the matter. Away to the glass doors I flew like a flash, Peered outside and hoped for some cash.
The moon on the breast of the new- fallen snow Gave the luster of mid-day to the cars in a row. When, what to my wondering eyes should appear, But a good used car and a customer so dear.
With a little old driver, so lively and quick, I knew in a moment it must be an easy pick. More rapid than eagles his courses he came, And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name!
"Now Joel! now, Isell, now, Moo and Houdini, On, Greenpea! On, Driver, on Mack and Boomy. To the top of the lot! to the top of the wall! Now sell away! Sell away! Sell away all!"
And then, in a twinkling, I saw the salesmen look. They were prancing and pawing each little foot. As I drew in my head, and was turning around, Into the showroom the up came with a bound.
He was dressed all in rags from his head to his feet, And his clothes were all tarnished with booze and something to eat. But a bundle of cash he had flung on his back, And he looked liked a baby seal, just opening his pack.
His eyes- how they twinkled! His mood how merry! He wanted to trade; he wanted a Chevy. His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow, As he offered MSRP plus the "Mop and Glo".
He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old up, And I laughed when i saw him, and put coffee in his cup. A wink of his eye and a twist of his head, Soon gave me to know the deal was not dead.
He spoke few words, but went straight to his work, And filled out all of the papers, then turned with a jerk. And giving the cash for the car that he chose, Up from his chair he suddenly rose!
He jumped in his new car and gave us a whistle, And away he sped like the down of a thistle. But I heard him exclaim, 'ere he drove out of sight, "Happy Christmas to all salesmen, and to all customers a good-night!"
The M5 I'm stalking has now been on the lot for almost three weeks, so I'm thinking that they will probably send it off to the auction in two weeks or less(another friend in the business said "A ten year old BMW at a new BMW dealership is a boat anchor"). The Trade-In Value thread is pretty much comatose, so I'm wondering if anyone here might have an idea what the sled may bring at auction: 2000 BMW M5 dark gray, black interior, NAV, CD changer, new Michelin Pilot all-seasons, 91K miles, fresh detail. Louisville, KY. Thanks!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I really enjoyed seeing the Christmas Poem again. It is truly a work of art, being in the book biz I am in awe of anyone who can write so creatively. Making words and ideas flow from blank paper (or computer screen in this case).
The only thing I don't like is that it seems like just yesterday when I read it last......another year that just flew by.
I am not to good at this but did you go on line and snoop around. I found lots of BMWs at this sight but couldn't sort by year. 2000 bmw M
Then I found this one:
For Sale 2000 BMW M5 - MERCER ISLAND, WA This used car was listed on 11/30/2009. Seller: Brian
Buy a used 2000 BMW M5 from a private seller, not a dealer, and save money. It's a mid-size car with silver exterior and black leather interior. It has a nice 8 Cylinder engine, 6-Speed transmission with 86,000 miles on it. This mid-size car has AC, Sunroof, Cruise, CD Player, and more.. . I'm located in MERCER ISLAND, WA. I'll take $21,500 for this vehicle. link title
Just keep checking around, or do you need the info from someone who knows what they are talking about? :sick:
Long before C4C was even proposed used car prices were steadily rising as the supply of off lease and rental cars dried up.
Since everyone is talking about their degrees I do have a degree in economics. So as an economist I will say that one should expect used car prices to increase as an economy gets worse. Simply because as the economy worsens people will find ways to cut back. One way to reduce expenses would be to buy a used car instead of new. As more people do this demand starts to outpace supply and prices go up.
It may not be the only reason but it is a driving force.
I would hazard to guess that once the economy starts getting strong used car prices will start to level out then fall some.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Trade in value on both Edmunds and KBB runs about $12-13,000 for a clean car, which should reflect something close to auction value. What is the asking price?
I am not to good at this but did you go on line and snoop around. I found lots of BMWs at this sight but couldn't sort by year.
Thanks! Any and all help is welcome. What I'm trying to do right now is find out what they can expect to get if they auction the car so I can make an appropriate "Final Offer"...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Depending on what site you check they are either asking $17,950 or $16,950. They have offered it to me for considerably less, but I want to see if I can get the car for close to $14,000. Thanks.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I would hazard to guess that once the economy starts getting strong used car prices will start to level out then fall some.
I think your analysis is pretty good and one way it is confirmed to some degree is that in Canada, where we didn't have a C4C program, we are still experiencing a shortage of used cars. It would seem that during hard times, people still need cars, but they are more likely to turn to used cars.
One article I read was that the predictions look pretty good for next year, for the new car market....11.5million units sold. That could stimulate sales, and get the used car market moving again.
Economist degree! With all our education and experience we should be able to put together some worthwhile enterprise. Maybe we should get a cut of the membership fees, since we provide all of this entertaining and knowledgeable material.
Not enough cars went thru the auction to get a real feel - only 1 in the last 6 months. It brought $10k with 127k miles. Condition and color unknown. I do not think the dealer will send it to auction as it is a special car and as the old phrase goes, the is an a** for every seat. We have had a Defender for about 120 days but will hang on to it as it will sell for full pop in the spring.
Comments
Another English major!!!!! This is getting too funny.
I think you made a wise decision not to go into teaching. I know some people love it, but I taught elementary school for 3 years, long enough to get a permanent certificate to go back to it if I decided to, or if I got destitute.
The final day camme when a Grade 6 student went running around at recess, holding up a Playboy centrefold. I took the magazine away from him. Then about 6 of them came over and started shouting they knew I would read it when they went home. So, I ripped it up, right before their eyes and through it in the giant garbage bin on the playground.
3 minutes later kids are running all over the field waving bits of paper and bragging about which body parts they got from the garbage bin.
And that, was the illustrious end to my teaching career.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I am not the greatest on the computer (or for grammar as many here can tell you), but how do you look up a 2009 model. I just get a 2010 and there is no discount.
One thing I learned was the front looks a lot more normal (lloks like a large Forester), not sure if they changed that in 09 or 10.
You can look up prices but I don't know how you build an 09.
Suburu
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The pedantic among you know what I'm talking about and to whom I'm directing it.
Party on!!
Yeah, we know.
You can look up prices but I don't know how you build an 09.
Click the 2009 Radio Button. I'll bet it works. :P
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Any psych majors out there? I'd think those skills would also come in handy on the sales frontlines.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
I think it is the same here. I suppose it is an extra security measure so the check is more likely to end up in the right hands.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Hey, are you getting the big snow storm down there?
How does your Gennie drive in the snow?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Present!
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
How does your Gennie drive in the snow?
We're supposed to get 2 to 3 inches by morning (a mere dusting for some parts of the globe) so that's when I'll find out.
My driveway is as flat as a table so I know I'll get out to the street. At the first sign of me hurting that beauty I'm heading back to the garage. :P
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Strange kind of Global warming?????
Good luck in the snow.....remember the first snow fall of the year is a challenge, everyone forgets how to drive when they see snow for the first time in the season.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Present!
That makes us blood brothers oldfarmer. :surprise: I dual majored in psych and business administration. That's partly why I'm always interested in the dialogue between customers and salespeople in the sales stories here. Generalized descriptions of events aren't nearly as fun. GG always has good descriptive and detail oriented stories, maybe he'll come out of the bullpen and help that lady friend of his buy another car. :P
it was 3 days a week @8:30 am. went to the first class, last class, one other and the 5 quizzes/tests. it was one of those classes held in a large auditorium setting and attendance was not taken.
at the final, the prof showed up wearing mirrored sunglasses and said he didn't expect anyone would finish the test in the allotted 2 hours.
after 45 minutes, i walked down and handed in my test. he said 'are you really done?', i said 'yup' and walked out. never saw him again.
ended up with a 'B', so i was ok with that.
never wanted to pursue psychology after that class.
when i buy a car, i don't want to play games, but i could.
So, theoretically, you could detect when car sales people are playing games with you!
And, before I get a ton of email, notice I used the word "theoretically" because we know that never actually happens in real life. :P
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Same here and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Neither of which has helped me with a car purchase. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Hope you didn't get kicked out of your house.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think my wife can come pretty close. She was a family therapist and I think she can read people very well...most of the time. That was why she probably thought I was such a good catch.
Seriously, she is good at telling who is honest, who doesn't seem trustworthy, who is sincere, etc., maybe with about 82% accuracy. Definitely a much higher average than the general public. Not sure how much comes from psych courses, or just from intuition, I think most comes from the latter.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That journalism prof was so dull that he caused me to drop journalism from my list of possible majors. It was at teh time a small department and I'd have had him several times.
I went from a BA in psychology to a masters in social work to an associates in horticulture (farming).
In other words, I choose to work in progressively worse and worse paying careers.
Sounds like you planned better.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
So what's the real story? They had a saleswoman in the article who said: Under C4C you could get a $4000 discount by turning in your $3000 car. Now you can get 0% finance worth $4000 plus $3000 for your car which makes a $7000 discount."
So my question for the sales pros:
1) Are the 2009s really all gone? If so, good job!
2) Are the deals really that great on the 2010s?
3) Are used cars still in short supply? I never understood why crushing a clunker would dry up supply for late models.
I'm really curious about my last question because as I drive by the Manheim auction I've noticed better quality cars coming out lately. More pick-ups and Hondas and less beat-up domestic stock.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Update on the '98 Benz. Talked to my friend last night. He advertised it in the local community newspaper (published once/week). Got a couple of bites, except the potential buyers all said they had to get financing (on a $7K car? :surprise: ). Sounds like he's got it priced right since he said none of the lookers tried to negotiate. Or, perhaps they want him to carry the note for them. Not sure.
In any event, I don't expect anything to happen between now and the new year. So, I'll just "cool my jets" for now.
Looks like a couple of inches of snow in the OH valley, with two more coming tomorrow. First of what usually is normally only 2-3 snows we get in these parts. Perhaps dreaming of the elusive "White Christmas".
1) Are the 2009s really all gone? If so, good job!
Yes for the most part all the 2009s are gone. I am sure there are still a few distressed merchandise left. We have four Saabs left but that is better then the 20 something we had over the summer and none of the Saabs are expensive. We were totally sold out of new 2009 Volvos but were able to get two more from port a couple of weeks ago.
From what I can tell they were part of a fleet sale that fell through as the only option they have is bluetooth phone so probably an outside sales reps car. The company probably went out of business and couldn't pick up the fleet cars. There were 10 or 11 avaliable and we could get two of them.
According to our computer system we have 26 new 2009s in stock throughout the whole company but I know that is not completely right. There are some cars on that list that are sold but haven't been removed from the computer for some reason. I would guess we have 18 or 19 new 2009s left and the majority of them are loaners for the service departments.
2) Are the deals really that great on the 2010s?
As usual the answer is it depends. I am sure for some 2010s you could get a deal just as good or very close to a 2009 but that is not true every where. Things are better then they were when we were closing out the 2009s and supply is way down. Give it a few more months and if sales don't pick up some more and supply increases some then you will see nearly identical deals on most 2010s that you got at the end of 2009.
3) Are used cars still in short supply? I never understood why crushing a clunker would dry up supply for late models.
Yes they are in very short supply cars but not because of C4C. Crushing 700,000 junk or near junk cars doesn't really do anything to the supply of 1-3 year old late model used cars.
I got into a debate with someone else at another forum about this and pulled some historical auction data to prove my point.
I am just going to repost that response here because I don't feel like doing new research. THe data is only a couple of months old so the numbers have changed some but the basic premise is the same. The supply of off lease new cars has dropped off to almost nothing and some of the people that bought new cars in the past are instead buying 1-2 year old used cars to save money. You have much less supply and slightly more demand so higher prices on the used cars and a shortage of good 1-3 year old cars.
The guy I was debating posted this article
The ghost of Cash For Clunkers is still haunting us. From WMAZ-13 in Georgia:
So, basically, Cash For Clunkers moved the average market price of a used car upwards, thus screwing poor people who now may not be able to afford a decent used car. http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=70243&catid=175
And my response was...
No, it didn't or if it did only by a couple hundred bucks.
We are currently the 6th and probably by the end of this month the 5th highest pre-owned Volvo dealer in the country. Used car prices have been going up for a year or so when compared to same year car with similar mileage and equipment. Long before C4C was even proposed used car prices were steadily rising as the supply of off lease and rental cars dried up. With fewer people buying new cars fewer people are trading in their old cars too. All of that is driving up prices a lot more then 700,000 mostly junky cars coming off the roads.
Through my Galves subscription I have access to historical wholesale pricing on almost any car going back 18-24 months. Pick a car make and model and I will check the historical data then post a screen shot of it.
Just for example and because it is a car I am fimilar with check out this pricing on XC90s. Notice how in May of 2008 base cars, and for the XC90 a base car was FWD, no leather, no sunroof, five passenger, had a base price of $25,000 with base mileage of 19,000.
Over the next few months prices kept dropping as gas went higher and the economy looked to be falling off a cliff. The prices were behaving how you would expect them too until we got into winter and prices kept falling quickly because the economy was so bad. Normally prices on a vehicle like that would stabilize in winter. That stability didn't kick in till mid December well after it normally does.
In September of last year you could expect base trade in value to be around 20,000 dollars on a 23,000 mile XC90. Over a year later the same trade in value is true for a year older XC90 with 12,000 more miles.
There has been a nearly 5,000 dollar increase in base price since January while base mileage has gone up by 8,000 miles. That is freaking nuts and it is not because of C4C it all it is because there are no new cars to replace those used cars once they leave the market.
The trades we saw on C4C were almost all garbage. There were a couple of SUVs traded in that looked ok but they were problematic models or dead makes, got a couple of Isuzus for example, so they were worth very little.
He basically ignored the hard data which is what this person does when you actually have hard data.
The trades you saw up there may have been garbage, but according to the government list linked above, the media, and personal observations, most them weren't dead makes or particularly problematic models (of the import marques).
Also, "a couple hundred bucks" can be the difference between a good car and a crappy car (or no car) down in the lower end of the used car spectrum. Been there, done that.
(So much for 'destroying me with your Galves data...
I then replied with this.
But you completely ignored the data. Used car prices were increasing long before C4C and are going to continue to increase long after it. Not because we junked 700,000 crappy cars, a small minority of which might have been ok, but because the supply of new cars which become used cars has been constrained too much.
The reason I picked the XC90 to show you historical data is because it is a car that in general wasn't eligible for C4C on either side. If C4C was the primary reason for an increase in prices then its value shouldn't have gone up really at all. On the new car side it didn't get could enough gas mileage. The only new XC90 that got 18 or better combined is the 2010 XC90 FWD model. Volvo only sells a handful of FWD models a year and most of them go to fleets not dealerships
Well I guess that makes at least 3 of us. BS in Psychology and a minor in History. I have to admit that every psychology professor I had was completely nuts, had no common sense, and some had a mean streak.
I had one professor who only gave multiple choice tests. Now normally multiple choice tests are easy but this lady's tests were pure murder:
First, the questions were pretty hard and if you got it right you got 5 points
Second, she would always include the choices of "none of the above" and "all of the above"...and make all the answers very plausible.
Third, the real ringer was, if you did not know the answer and left the question blank, you got zero points...but....if you answered the question and got it wrong (just took a guess) you got -5 points. So you could actually end up with a negative score on the entire test !! :mad:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Here is the last few paragraphs.
On the trade in side most XC90s would be worth too much to be clunked. According to the data only four were submitted to be clunked and I guarantee you all but one, the 2006 model, were XC90 T6s that needed a transmission and turbo work. The 2006 is a little unusual but if it had been in a serious accident and had a ton of miles then it wouldn't be worth much. A XC90 can survive a pretty bad accident and still be drivable but need thousands upon thousands of dollars in repairs to actually be fixed. Four cars out of the 100,000 plus XC90s Volvo has sold since 2002 will not effect pricing or supply one bit. Obviously C4C has nothing to do with the increase in pricing on XC90s and it doesn't have any significant effect on pricing for any other model either.
The price of used cars won't normalize until there are enough new car sales to increase supply again. Now what was the primary goal of C4C again? Oh yeah right temporarily bump new car sales to jump start the system and get inventory moving again. That is exactly what is needed to get the supply levels back up to a normal level.
I don't know why you think that. He's got you buffaloed. That book of his ain't exactly a best seller, you know. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Make that 4. I had a double major in English and history with a minor in psychology. I taught psychology the last few years of my teaching career, before becoming an administrator.
As a group, car salesmen are interesting to observe. They usually have strong personalities (definitely extroverted), think analytically, and have rocky relationships in their personal lives. This is partly because of the stress of their chosen career path. There is a misconception about car salesmen. Actually, they are very intelligent for the most part. I had a professor who used to say that car salesmen were just frustrated psychologists. They enjoy dealing with people and are good at mind games. Makes sense, doesn't it?
Please remember that the above comments are general in nature. There are plenty of exceptions. There is one thing that I have noticed about the regular customers here. Many of them actually want to be car salesmen. There are two of them who show it in every post that they write. Can you identify those two?
Richard
I agree. I also think you proved your point very well. However, I am one of the exceptions and while I know people my age aren’t the majority of the car buying public, deep down, I know I did my small part to help keep the economy going. I can only do so much.
Son No. 2 said it best, when he heard that I traded in a near perfect 3 year old car with less than 13K miles in March for a new car, when he said, “I can remember when you would have been looking for a used car like that. Man, have you changed”. :confuse: My response was, “Yes I have. I can now do things differently than when I had to be concerned with a house full of people. Like, feeding, clothing, keeping warm and educating you and your older brother. At least I didn’t have to do the education thing with your mother (she has always been a know-it-all
Finally, it looks like economy has made a small step in the right direction. I now see more new cars on the road than I did this past summer. It’s about time.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
For example we (Chrysler dealer) sold a new honda to a customer. We bought the Honda at little over cost from my old Honda dealer where i worked at, marked it up a bit and financed it for our client.
Dealer to dealer transactions are usually simple and straightforward nearly instant cash type deals, hence we can get a low price, and then we can resell it or re lease it to our own clients.
Deals like that are typically same price as one would get with the original selling dealer, and in some cases maybe a few hundred bucks cheaper for the end user. The reason they're done is that some store might be able to offer financing or leasing as you mentioned that the other dealer can't. In our case teh customer didn't have perfect credit, and Honda couldn't approve them where as we could.
Also in order for this to happen, the customer has to be dead serious, with a non refunable deposit left, because no dealer is going to be stuck with a new off make vehicle.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
A dealer can take the money off at the point of sale on after tax or before tax rebates.
Or you can finance an entire purchase and get a cheque for the rebate from the dealer if you need the cash. So say you get $8000 rebate in cash, it's more like a personal loan tacked onto your car loan.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Richard said: I taught psychology the last few years of my teaching career, before becoming an administrator.
I am sure there are exceptions, and he didn't want you to take it personally.
Can you identify those two? I don't have a clue :confuse:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Thank you for the explanation - much appreciated. Twice I leased an Oldsmobile from a Ford dealer (two different dealers) and I am pretty sure I got the cars for less than I would have from an Olds dealer.
Your answer has answered a question I have thought about for many years, and I particularly like the part about one dealer not offering financing while another will, that explains a lot too.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Good answer and very well explained. After reading your answer I would agree that C4C had little to do with the shortage of used cars.
Seems salespeople are in agreement that with the lack of leasing the rotation of used cars coming in off lease is a big factor. That is going to be difficult to replace.....leasing was an ingenious way to make sure you had constant buyers for new cars, and a steady stream of used cars.
Do you think this will be a problem for dealerships who don't lease any more?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That reminds me of a story one of my undergrad profs told. He took a class with tests like that. They were also so hard that the class average was actually a negative number. Several students figured that if they put their name on the test and handed it in blank they would be above the class average. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Thanks!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the dealer
Not a car was stirring, not even a stealer.
The vehicles were lined up by the door with care,
In hopes that an up soon would be there.
The salesmen were nestled all snug in their sheds
While visions of customers danced in their heads.
And dealer in his plaid jacket and I in my cap,
Had just settled down for a long winter's chat.
When out on the lot there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my chair to see what was the matter.
Away to the glass doors I flew like a flash,
Peered outside and hoped for some cash.
The moon on the breast of the new- fallen snow
Gave the luster of mid-day to the cars in a row.
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a good used car and a customer so dear.
With a little old driver, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment it must be an easy pick.
More rapid than eagles his courses he came,
And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name!
"Now Joel! now, Isell, now, Moo and Houdini,
On, Greenpea! On, Driver, on Mack and Boomy.
To the top of the lot! to the top of the wall!
Now sell away! Sell away! Sell away all!"
And then, in a twinkling, I saw the salesmen look.
They were prancing and pawing each little foot.
As I drew in my head, and was turning around,
Into the showroom the up came with a bound.
He was dressed all in rags from his head to his feet,
And his clothes were all tarnished with booze and something to eat.
But a bundle of cash he had flung on his back,
And he looked liked a baby seal, just opening his pack.
His eyes- how they twinkled! His mood how merry!
He wanted to trade; he wanted a Chevy.
His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
As he offered MSRP plus the "Mop and Glo".
He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old up,
And I laughed when i saw him, and put coffee in his cup.
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know the deal was not dead.
He spoke few words, but went straight to his work,
And filled out all of the papers, then turned with a jerk.
And giving the cash for the car that he chose,
Up from his chair he suddenly rose!
He jumped in his new car and gave us a whistle,
And away he sped like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, 'ere he drove out of sight,
"Happy Christmas to all salesmen, and to all customers a good-night!"
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF MY EDMUNDS FRIENDS!
Richard
Thanks!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I really enjoyed seeing the Christmas Poem again. It is truly a work of art, being in the book biz I am in awe of anyone who can write so creatively. Making words and ideas flow from blank paper (or computer screen in this case).
The only thing I don't like is that it seems like just yesterday when I read it last......another year that just flew by.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2000 bmw M
Then I found this one:
For Sale 2000 BMW M5 - MERCER ISLAND, WA
This used car was listed on 11/30/2009.
Seller: Brian
Buy a used 2000 BMW M5 from a private seller, not a dealer, and save money. It's a mid-size car with silver exterior and black leather interior. It has a nice 8 Cylinder engine, 6-Speed transmission with 86,000 miles on it. This mid-size car has AC, Sunroof, Cruise, CD Player, and more.. . I'm located in MERCER ISLAND, WA. I'll take $21,500 for this vehicle.
link title
Just keep checking around, or do you need the info from someone who knows what they are talking about? :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Since everyone is talking about their degrees I do have a degree in economics. So as an economist I will say that one should expect used car prices to increase as an economy gets worse. Simply because as the economy worsens people will find ways to cut back. One way to reduce expenses would be to buy a used car instead of new. As more people do this demand starts to outpace supply and prices go up.
It may not be the only reason but it is a driving force.
I would hazard to guess that once the economy starts getting strong used car prices will start to level out then fall some.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thanks! Any and all help is welcome. What I'm trying to do right now is find out what they can expect to get if they auction the car so I can make an appropriate "Final Offer"...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Depending on what site you check they are either asking $17,950 or $16,950. They have offered it to me for considerably less, but I want to see if I can get the car for close to $14,000. Thanks.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I think your analysis is pretty good and one way it is confirmed to some degree is that in Canada, where we didn't have a C4C program, we are still experiencing a shortage of used cars. It would seem that during hard times, people still need cars, but they are more likely to turn to used cars.
One article I read was that the predictions look pretty good for next year, for the new car market....11.5million units sold. That could stimulate sales, and get the used car market moving again.
Economist degree! With all our education and experience we should be able to put together some worthwhile enterprise. Maybe we should get a cut of the membership fees, since we provide all of this entertaining and knowledgeable material.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Very true snake and a good observation. As an example our used to new ratio has gone from 50-50 to 70-30,