Stories from the Sales Frontlines

jipster

Tidester: Perhaps but typing in all lower case makes reading it much less efficient so stick with standard sentence case if you want your readers to have a more fulfilling and enjoyable experience.

Richard: A run on sentence is two independent sentences (clauses) run together

For some reason that sentence just didn't "look" right. I would think tidesters comment would have been more appropriate broken into two sentences, putting a period after efficient. Or, it seems like a comma should have gone after "perhaps" and after "efficient" if having one long sentence. But, of course, I like commas... and that "..." thingy. Thanks for the lesson though Richard.

jipster

That is a complete sentence with a conjunction and another sentence
. I would have put a comma after the "Perhaps."

OH HO HO! So, the Jipster may have been right....at least partially. :P

I can't say I can recite the rules of grammar, but I can usually tell what is and what is not correct. So let's mark this one down. Jipster-1 Tidester-0 Richard-0... imidazol- 1/2

explorerx4

time will tell. the software is already being changed to cover a runaway situation.
look at it this way, how do hackers get into a system? why does a server crash when faced with a lot of volume? there are limitations and flaws. sometimes they get exposed under extreme or rare conditions.

verdugo

Maybe but a Ford with a "500" behind it's model name didn't mean it had a hot engine. A lot of them had sixes and not even the 260 or 289 V-8's.

Agreed. My Dad had one of those. He liked everything about it except the underpowered engine. After a couple of years, he traded it.

isellhondas

When I was a kid working in a gas station I saw some strange cars.

One day a customer pulled in an a spiffy 1963 Chevy Impala SS convertable.

It had a six cylinder engine and a three speed manual!

The opposite was a guy with a plain jane 1964 Chevy Biscayne Station Wagon.

It was a total stripper EXCEPT it had the 400 HP 409 engine!

I can't imagine a Chevy store getting stuck with one of THOSE on their lot that someone ordered and then backed out of the deal!

imidazol97

I certainly didn't meant to get into a contest with other grammarians on here. I was trying to point out the subject-verb cores of the sentences as I read it.

oregonboy

Of course, you mean "subject-verb cores of the sentences" as you read them.

(Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)

tidester

I would have put a comma after the "Perhaps."

Actually, I would have done so too but that one slipped by.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

tidester

So, the Jipster may have been right ...

Wrong! You cannot get credit because your issue had nothing to do with commas! :P

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

graphicguy

Was just talking about this Toyota situation with my son last night. Gogiboy. kind of reminded me of you, since a friend of his has about a year old Corolla with a big wing on the back, fancy wheels and stereo. His friend just put a ton of money into it for aftermarket "stuff". I never think aftermarket is a good idea, especially wheels/tires, since those really screw up the handling on cars.

That said, we were talking about resale value since his friend seems bound and determined to get a Scion TC, and wants to trade the Corolla in (another bad move). Now, there's not a dealer in town who'll even make him an offer on the Corolla. Forget the amount of money he put into it with the aftermarket stuff. No one even wants it if it was stripped back down to it's original state.

Anyway, I suspect that once all of this gets sorted out by Toyota (and it will get sorted out), it probably would be a good idea for them to pull a Hyundai, and offer some kind of crazy warranty and buyback assurance, as well as much longer warranty terms.

I feel sorry for Toyota dealerships in particular. They have little to sell right now, even if they could get someone into their showrooms. I'm also wondering if this will eventually extend to Lexus. It would be hard for me to imagine that Lexus would use a different accelerator assembly than what's used in a Camry or an Avalon.

Toyota's North American HQ is a 45 minute drive from me (down in "kyfdx" country). I bet there's some midnight oil being burned at that facility right now.

Resale? What resale. Whether they fix the problem quickly or not, this hit to their reputation is going to take awhile to regain, if they ever can in the foreseeable future.

Gotta say, while this was very unexpected of Toyota, it's really not much of a surprise. Ever since they made it a goal to overtake GM, it seems that quality has really dropped and glitches have cropped up more and more. The new Toyota becoming the old GM?

Who would've thunk it.

sterlingdog

LOL!

Richard

cdnpinhead

The new Toyota becoming the old GM?

. . .and Ford is becoming the old Toyota.

Who would've thunk it.

Indeed -- strange times

sterlingdog

WOW!!! There is hope for the future of our country. It's great to know that they knew all of the words. You're so right. Children can really surprise you at times.

Richard

sterlingdog

Not so fast. Being partially correct does not earn you a whole point.

The sentence would have flowed better with two commas: One after the introductory adverb "Perhaps" and one before the coordinating conjunction "so". While neither comma is a strict requirement, the purpose of commas is to help the reader better understand the message. In this case, it would have helped.

Mark this down: Tidester 1, imidazol 1, Richard 1, Jip 1/2

Richard

driver100

The new Toyota becoming the old GM?
. . .and Ford is becoming the old Toyota.

Very good article on how Toyota quality has actually been quite poor for some time now.

David Olive
Torstar News Service
My friend Mary Lou in Michigan knows that Toyota's reputation for quality is a sham. On a recent visit, she swept her arm across the width of the dashboard of her year-old Camry, bought new. "Every piece of this trim has fallen off or warped," she said of America's best-selling car.

Yet, despite opening two quality "institutes" in each of North America and Europe to inculcate the "Toyota Way," there has been no meaningful improvement in Toyota quality. Like GM, stuck with too many plants as its market share dropped in half, Toyota has been compelled to keep all its new plants running flat-out to generate the cash flow to finance their construction, even as customer complaints have mounted.

Unlike Honda, Toyota is not an engineering trailblazer. And no one would accuse Toyota of being a trendsetter in styling akin to, say, BMW. Quality is principally what Toyota offers the market.

Toyota realized its goal of eclipsing GM as the world's largest automaker last year. The goal was a dubious one, given the risks. In any case, by late last year, Toyota had been overtaken by Volkswagen.

The only thing saving Toyota is a decades-long reputation for quality that people who still buy its cars don't realize the firm has not lived up to for more than half a decade.
Toyota Quality

Kirstie_H

Yes, I could only list so many of my skills, and I thought voiding warranties and training sea monkeys were among my most valuable. The "void warranties" is actually a t-shirt... which I own.

On the off chance that the sun ever shines here again, I'll take photos of the toys in the garage.

isellhondas

Sun?

I didn't know you were my neighbor?

Where in the Seattle area do you live?

Kirstie_H

I live in the Kansas City suburb of Seattle. Yes, we've got all the dreariness of Seattle, without the balmy temperatures. We have yet to experience a sunny weekend in 2010.

jayrider

Burnt ends at Bryants -- did that twice. Once downtown and once at the casino. Both were great but the ones at the casino cost an extra $50 in slot losses.

audia8q

I have additional information that might change some minds....

1. our dealership does not participate in the regional ad program so we don't have ad fees tacked on to our invoices...this gives us apricing advantage of $200-450 per car...When the customer comes in with Edmunds invoice prices we don't have to explain why our invoice is higher due to ad/assessment fees...it isnt

2. Our doc fee is $100 lower than our nearest same brand competator, which happens to be 25 miles away...There just arent Mazda dealers on every corner in my little corner of the world.

So if I price everything within the ad fee range, I will force the other dealer to sell well below invoice and in some cases below net net cost just to match my upfront prices...sparing the customer the perils of the command and control sales process and higher fees.

jipster

Our doc fee is $100 lower than our nearest same brand competator, which happens to be 25 miles away...There just arent Mazda dealers on every corner in my little corner of the world.

Yeah, that's a big one. Like I wrote before, I like to buy local. Anything further than a 30 minute drive... forget about it.

I think a no haggle set up, such as the one you describe, would have the best chance of working. Good luck.

isellhondas

It's just too bad when every car has to be "cheap sold".

british_rover

Resale? What resale. Whether they fix the problem quickly or not, this hit to their reputation is going to take awhile to regain, if they ever can in the foreseeable future.

I have been watching Galves to see if the effected cars start taking a hit but the historical values just haven't been updated yet. By this time next week though I would expect a big drop.

gogiboy

"Did they cash the 2 checks? Will you be covered? I was told in a business class that a post dated check is actually illegal."

Driver--

You are correct and that's exactly what the F & I manager said so no post-dated check. We are relying on the integrity of his office not to cash the second check until we deposit the insurance settlement. Meanwhile, we have heard from our insurance company and their check was mailed Fed Ex Overnight today so we should have it tomorrow (if the weather isn't an issue) or Monday at the latest.

We missed the brunt of the ice storm although 150,000 folks south and east of OKC weren't so lucky. Crews are working to restore power. We got more sleet than ice and although sleet can build up and freeze, it bounces off of objects like power lines. It is currently snowing and covering the sleet. but the weather service has revised their prediction for my area from 5"-10" to 3"-5" of snow on top of the 3/4" of now congealed frozen sleet.

Gogiboy

fezo

So where's your neighborhood? I'd love to have a Mazda dealership like that around here.

Of course right now I wouldn't mind a Mazda dealership of any kind around here. The nearest one, which was twenty miles away, is gone. We don't miss the dealership but we do miss the Mazdas.

qbrozen

You must be talking about Toms River Lincoln/Mercury/Mazda. We drove there a few months back to test drive the Mazda5 ... I was very surprised to find them gone. Funny thing is, I called their phone to ask where they moved to. Someone answered the phone "Toms River Lincoln/Mercury/Mazda," and it wasn't until I asked where they moved to that she told me they went out of business. ummmm.... so why are you answering the phone??

So, yeah, only 2 within reasonable distance now -- Shrewsbury and Freehold.

gogiboy

"Your storm is on its way to us."

Richard--

Best of luck to you and yours. As I mentioned in a previous post to Driver we dodged the bullet in my area, but 150,00 other Okies weren't so lucky.

Yesterday I tried to buy some D batteries for a fluorescent camp lantern I own. Not a single one to be had at my Walmart. The salesman's suggestion was to buy a different lantern that took another size of battery. Fortunately, we have other lanterns, flashlights and the like. We also have a gas log fireplace, but it has an electric ignition so we turned it on before the worst of the storm and then turned it off when it became evident that the worst had past.

Gogiboy

fezo

Yeah, actually after they closed the Chevy dealer grabbed the Mazda franchise but he's gone, too.

If you were looking to open up a car dealership in Toms River there are a lot nice buildings all set for you - the former Chevy dealer, Lincoln-Mercury, Mitsubishi, Chrysler.... and that nice building they were putting up to bring VW-Porsche-Audi back to town but which is now for sale.

gogiboy

"So where's your neighborhood? I'd love to have a Mazda dealership like that around here."

I feel the same way as you Fezo. When I bought my Mazda3 three years ago the closest dealer was 55 miles away. The local GMC/Buick/Pontiac dealership used to carry Mazda too, but for reasons unknown eliminated that part of their dealership. I wonder if they regret that now given the demise of Pontiac and near duplication of product between GMC and Chevy. I drive past the dealership daily and it always looks like it's on the verge of a fire sale since they have so few new GMCs or Buicks on the lot, but plenty of used cars and those are the cars placed most visibly near the busy road in front of the dealership.

Gogiboy

fezo

Speaking of fire sale looking places here's my local chevy dealer. Be sure to search all new vehicles.

verdugo

Did I search right? Only one new car? :confuse:

gogiboy

Gang--

See if the 2010 playing field in my area in any way resembles what is happening or has happened in your neck of the woods:

Chevy/Jeep/Cadillac . Jeep was lost in 2009 restructuring. Cadillac acquired at expense of Toyota dealership. Seems to have a good stock of Chevys and a few Caddies.

Ford. Seems stable. No Lincoln or Mercury divisions except used.

GMC/Pontiac/Buick/Mazda. Mazda lost about 5 years ago. Pontiac gone. Almost no Buicks on the lot. Some GMC (obviously Trucks and SUVs). More used cars than new.

Nissan. Here for about two years and then gone. Replaced by Suzuki (motorcycle) dealership.

Honda/Chrysler. Chrysler was lost in 2009 restructuring. Now Honda-only plus used cars.

Toyota/Cadillac/Oldsmobile/Scion. Cadillac lost to Chevy dealership (makes sense). Oldsmobile defunct. Scion added five years ago. Much of Toyota line in limbo. Even before recall there was fairly limited selection--probably typical for 50K population.

Hyundai/Chrysler. New kid on the block. Dealership roughly 1 year old. Given Chrysler in 2009 restructuring much to the chagrin of the other two local dealerships who were selling Chrysler products. Lots of Hyundais, not so many Chryslers.

All other new brands must be purchased in OKC or Tulsa. Quite a few buy-here-pay-here lots where other brands are available used. All dealerships now located within 1/2 mile of one another on same reasonably busy highway.

Gogiboy

graphicguy

don't know why, but compared to some areas, my little corner of OH seems to have an absolute wealth of dealerships. Only a few that I know of that got the ax.

-A Chryco dealership in a small town outside my burg. Another one was axed outside of the interstate loop. I think there was one GM dealership that fell, but again, pretty far from me.

All within a 30 minute drive, I can buy from
-2 BMW stores
-3 Toyota stores
-2 Porsche stores
-1 Volvo store
-1 Jaguar store
-1 Infiniti store
-2 VW stores
-3 Honda stores
-2 Acura stores
-3 Hyundai stores
-1 Lexus store (2 Lexus stores if I'm willing to cross the river into KY)
-3-4 Ford stores
-3 L&M stores
-1 SAAB store (since they've been resurrected)
-1 Mini store
-3 Chevy stores
-3 Buick/GMC stores
-3 Cadillac stores
-1 SMART store
-2 Mitsu stores
-3 Nissan stores
-1 Masserati store (may be 40 minutes away)
-1 HUMMER store
-2 Mazda stores
-2 Audi stores

I think that covers it. In short, I can buy just about anything save for a Rolls/Bentley, Lambo, Ferrari,Lotus within 20 minutes from my house.

fezo

Yep. It seems when they sell one they get another. Last time I looked it was a Malibu. Now it's a Colorado.

They have a new - 8K miles - Camaro in the showroom.

This dealership was on GM's list to close. Don't know if they appealed or are winding down but if they are winding down they sure are taking their time about it. The back of heir lot is filled with new Hyundais. They must be leasing the space to the Hyundai dealer who is new in town.

In town (as opposed to 20 miles up the road) we lost our Pontiac (of course - still sells Buick and GMC) dealer, Jeep and Suzuki. Chrysler, Dodge, Honda and Nissan are still going and we got the new Hyundai dealership.

fezo

If I move back up to where I grew up - which is a possibility in the next few years - I'd have a selection like that. Of course since we were only 35 miles tops from downtown Manhattan we could throw in the Rolls and such dealers as well.

driver100

so we don't have ad fees tacked on to our invoices...this gives us apricing advantage of $200-450 per car...

In light of what you just explained.....in my humble opinion, go for it! Why not, you should automatically have the lowest prices possible, and if you can match the competition for service you should get a major percentage of the business. I think most potential customers would prefer to shop this way, if the price is competitive, I definitely would.

Now, I have never heard of ad fees before. I know we argued for months about doc fees, but is this a new one. This is another one I think the dealer should be paying for, not the buying public. Does the grocery store charge extra for placing ads?

Soon the invoice will be 10 pages long;
additional for
sewer taxes,
education tax
employee bonus tax,
electrical tax,
air conditioning for the showroom,
garbage removal,
newspaper and magazine fees,
etc. etc.

jipster

Now, I have never heard of ad fees before

I think it was our local Kia group that had an outragously high ad fee when I was looking at a Sportage...around $600 a car. They do run a lot of radio/tv commercials. They said they put that fee on every car. The price on the car was good, but add the ad fee and doc. fee... then not so good. :sick:

lrguy44

If I showed you a factory invoice, RAG (Regional ad fees) are added to every vehicle. This covers the cost of the ads that promote your area dealers as a whole, not just 1 dealer. They differ from Doc fees as they are a true part of the cost of a new car to a dealer.

houdini1

Toyota has enough problems without you making new ones up. Did Ford ever fix that software problem that caused the roll overs?

driver100

If I showed you a factory invoice, RAG (Regional ad fees) are added to every vehicle. This covers the cost of the ads that promote your area dealers as a whole, not just 1 dealer.

Thank you Irguy for the explanation. It calmed me down a bit that it is a fee charged to the dealer....and although the consumer pays it, it isn't listed on his invoice.

I think most franchise business's pay a percentage of their income to the franchise head office, and they are responsible for buying ads. That would seem to be fairer all around.

This sounds a little bit underhanded to me, especially $250 to $400 tacked on to the price of a car for ads! They are advertising the Cadillac every 10 minutes on TV (reenergized, reinvented, etc), hate to see how much of the total price the consumer is getting hit for those ads. (First the dealer, $30k for the car, $5k advertising fees).

qbrozen

that nice building they were putting up to bring VW-Porsche-Audi back to town but which is now for sale

Yeah, that "state-of-the-art larger-than-life" building? I think building it is what broke them. :sick:

houdini1

We have 2 of those electric ignition fireplaces. Someone told me that they would still turn on even if the power was off (something about low voltage) but I have never had the occasion to try it. Good luck.

fezo

Yeah, that could well be.

Back in late 99 when we ended up buying the Accord i cam ever so close to buying a Passat wagon there. The next year the place burned to the ground.

Had I not previously owned a Rabbit and at that moment been coming off the Windstall I'd have likely bought the Passat.

audia8q

Ad fees are only on the dealer side of the invoice, not the MSRP side. It's a legit charge if the dealer is a member of the regional advertising assoc for the manufacturer. It might be required also. Many consumer want to haggle from cost up....if that is the case they must realize that many manufacturers charge their dealers to be in regional ad groups...i.e "your tri state ford dealers" The manufacturer charges a % of base invoice on every car the dealer buys from the maker. Some brands have them, some don't. Edmunds mentions ad fees somewhere on here.

isellhondas

Sounds like you dodged a bullet.

If you think the Windstar was bad you have no idea.

boomchek

Had a chat with him yesterday. He says the showroom is totally empty but the service dept is overflowing.

It's bad for the guys on the sales floor who are on comission but good for the service dept and the dealership owner who gets reimbursed by Toyota for warranty work to diagnose the accelerator pedal issues and to fix them.

Not to mention all the customers who need their vehicles tested and fixed. It''s tough when all of your brand's best sellers are yanked off the shelves. I mean how many FJ Cruisers can you sell in a month anyways.

He's gonna tough it out and see how long it will take before things get back to normal, but like everyone else he's got bills to pay.

dino001

Yes, but to be fair, that isn't the only reason they are out of business

My understanding is Saturn dealerships were extremely profitable early on for obvious reasons (tight market divisions precluded intrabrand competition, i.e. they competed only against other brands, not each other). It was later when Saturn did not improve its product and introduced new garbage models, the business model went down the tubes. They started discounting them because they simply didn't sell. It was combination of GMs trouble and market downturn, not particular business model of the dealerships.

fezo

Oh, I have some idea. I did own a Rabbit. Exactly why I didn't pull the trigger.

The poor kid selling the Passat thought he had a sure sale. I loved the car.

isellhondas

So, I didn't think they had a handle on what was causing the problem?

If this is the case and they don't have the modified parts, how can they do warranty work?

I feel bad too. A lot of the guys are probably living paycheck to paycheck as all of have at some time.

I hadn't thought of this but a lot of Toyota stores may lose some quality people who can't afford to tough it out.

driver100

. It's a legit charge if the dealer is a member of the regional advertising assoc for the manufacturer.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess it makes sense, but, it seems the car business finds new and better ways to keep charging - ultimately the consumer.

I once took a course that said advertising had little influence on many products, cars being one. Take gasoline for example, does advertising make you buy one brand over another? Most people just choose the station most convenient for them, or the one with the lowest price.

Most people only look at car ads to confirm their decision after they have bought. Most people already have an idea of what car they really want, the ads don't influence too many people. I wouldn't care if bmw dropped the ads, and saved me $400 on my purchase, that would influence me more than any ad. Cadillac can advertise the new CTX or whatever every 10 minutes and I know I won't be buying one for sure (especially after Richard's experience).

$250 to $400 per vehicle for advertising sounds like a lot. Probably someone is making something on that.

If you aren't part of the collective how will you get the word out?

Like I once said, Haldimand Motors is North Americas largest used car dealer. They have "no haggle pricing", so it works for them. They are about 20 miles from any major city, yet they have over 500 used cars and the website is updated every hour!
Haldimand Motors