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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is reporting this morning that Kerkorian is making rumbles about buying another 12 million shares of GM, and is still strongly pushing the GM-R-N alliance. With such a large stockholder pushing the idea so strongly, it seems like it might go ahead. Unless there is a reason NOT to do it that is powerful enough for a coalition of GM board members to form to oppose Kerkorian.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    it's not that you get burned by a particular make. It's just that you might find a car made by someone else that you just happen to like better. And sometimes it's not just reliability, but other aspects that might sway your opinion of a car.

    For example, my Mom and stepdad traded a 1984 Tempo in on a 1991 Stanza. Believe it or not, the Tempo was actually the more reliable of the two! The Stanza's tranny started to go around the 90,000 mile mark, and it needed some pretty expensive exhaust work too as I recall. The Tempo was more of a nickel-and-dime car, where annoying things might go wrong with it, but it would always be cheap and simple to fix.

    But when it came time for another car, they were happy enough with the Stanza that they went for a '99 Altima, instead of going back to a Ford car. The Tempo, while fairly reliable, was still just a nasty little car to have to live with. It was slow, uncomfortable, wasn't all that economical for its size, and ugly.

    The '99 Altima now has over 200,000 miles on it, and my Mom & stepdad have looked at newer cars occasionally. They're not dead-set on getting another Nissan. In fact, my Mom doesn't like the '02+ Altima...she said they made it too sporty! :confuse: I think they did look at an Impala, and also looked at an Accord and a Camry. So it seems like they're being pretty open-minded when shopping around. Although I don't think they've looked at any Ford or Chrysler products.

    And as for me, my first car was a 1980 Chevy Malibu. It wasn't a bad car. In fact I did like it. But then I found a 1969 Dodge Dart GT that I happened to like more, and I think that's what got me hung up on Mopars. It didn't make me swear off GM though, as I have had various GM cars since then, although I've never bought a new one.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >Do I need brochures, a coffee, washrooms, water, soda, a salesman.....

    Salesrooms around this area don't have that!!! What an irritation. I'd probably just say, "Leave me along. I'll let someone know when I want something. I'm going to look at the cars. Thank you."

    In fact I can browse at the local dealer with a salesman meandering by to ask if he can help me. I say that I'm just looking. He'll say let me know if you want anything. And I plop, turn keys, open doors, trunks, etc. Just what you wanted to the way it sounds.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • derrado1derrado1 Member Posts: 194
    So, so wrong about everything... except about Australia being a gorgeous country. That much is true. :)
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    My point is (since you probably won't respond to this post either) is that once a consumer has a bad experience (or several bad experiences) with a particular make, AND THEN IS SATISFIED WITH A NEW MAKE, then it is extremely hard for them to consider "going back".

    Excellent point, and I hope Imi answers.

    I have a friend who bought a Nova in the 70's. He actually wanted a Celica but the slick salesman played on his fiance at the time and talked him into the Nova. He hated the Nova, and when he took it back and complained that the trunk leaked the salesman said, well what am I supposed to do about it? His fiance became his wife, but they divorced shortly after. All because of the damn Nova, now he got burned so bad he'll never get married again, and what are the chances he'll ever buy another GM? Maybe zero!

    Point is, it is hard to change people to convert when they are satisfied and very hard to get a customer to come back once they leave.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    For manual availability look to Pontiac. G5, G6, Solstice, Vibe and GTO all offer a manual.

    Well, the Solstice and GTO aren't normal mainstream cars, so they don't really count. The rest are all small engines(unless you can get manual in a G6 with the 3.9L engine that is)

    The problem is - we want 6 cylinder AND RWD *AND* manual. It may be "only" 5% of the market, but GM can use all the help it can get at this point.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    I went to the Pontiac, Buick, Caddie dealer to sit in the LaCrosse a few weeks ago, and I find it really annoying that the dealership has a greeting lady who wants to know what you are doing there. Then she follows you around to make sure you don't need help or answer questions. Do I need brochures, a coffee, washrooms, water, soda, a salesman.......

    I think more people would look at the cars if they weren't pounced on. One can I help you or let me know if you need help will do. I might be more inclined to look at different makes if it wasn't for this hassle.

    One brilliant idea I have is if a dealership said this is "TESTING DAY". Come in and try out a new whatever, no questions asked. If GM believes their cars are so good how about a TESTING DAY. It might make me at least curious enough to compare it to my present vehicle!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    "This is GM's problem. Yes, I'm sure they ARE much improved. However, if a consumer was 'driven away' from GM due to problems (even 10-20 years ago) and IS SATISFIED with their current Toyota/Honda (or even -gasp- a Ford), then WHY should they be considering GM again?"

    I agree. The imports (all of them) made so many fans because their cars were good AND domestics sucked. Now domestics are (arguably) good, but the imports don't suck. That's a recipe for repeat business, not for conquest sales.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    ">experience knows that American car quality...."

    "That's different than 10 years and more ago. Things have changed. You don't seem to have realized that."
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    That's the problem, isn't it? How do you get the public to accept and realize it when you do have someting better to offer? They need to get the public to try their cars. Maybe something like BMW does with their Susan Komen test drive, which I take advantage of every year. I understand that GM has something set up in Las Vegas where for $10, you can drive any two GM products of your choice, and take a passenger with you. Has anyone done this?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Ahh Love, divorcing because of a GM Nova. I can really understand him hating GM :confuse:
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    "Gas hits $3 and the midsize SUV "plunges" 30%?? That is a big hit but it is only a 30% drop."

    Keep in mind that $3 gas only happened recently. Had it been in January, the number would probably be much larger.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The problem is - we want 6 cylinder AND RWD *AND* manual

    Sorry, the attributes keep changing. It was a mid sized car before that needed a manual. Now it is RWD and 6 cylinder. i guess I cannot help you there.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The problem is - we want 6 cylinder AND RWD *AND* manual

    Sorry, the attributes keep changing. It was a mid sized car before that needed a manual. Now it is RWD and 6 cylinder. i guess I cannot help you there. Really doubt it would be 5% of the US market though. Much less. Trucks are 50% so that leaves 50% for cars and that would mean 10% of car buyers want a RWD/6/stick/mid size. Since small cars is about half of the cars sold then that means 20% of midsize buyers would want RWD/6/stick. Really doubt that.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    I agree. I had bad experience with GM and I am now skeptical of GM no matter what recent JD Power or other rankings say now. I believe GM robbed me and I don't want to get robbed again. To appease me after all the nightmare with my Blazer, GM sent me $2500 "loyalty" certificates that I could use for buying another GM vehicle. Still, I switched to Honda. I just don't trust this company. I will not buy a GM till the entire management is fired including Wagoner. To me this is a corrupt management that knowingly sells inferior cars. Read the Edmunds' review of new hybrid VUE and you will find out that GM is still very much in the business of selling nightmares.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Excellent point, and I hope Imi answers."

    Thanks...

    ...but apparently not. :(
  • escambiaguyescambiaguy Member Posts: 35
    The majority of problems with the big3 were during what I call the "transition period". It was pretty much the entire decade of the 80's and early 90's. Everything was new to them, computers, fuel injection, electronics, overdrive trannys, clearcoat paint, etc., etc. It can be expected that when companies try new technology there will be failures in the beginning. I feel that GM and Ford build some pretty darn good vehicles now. Chrysler stills needs to work on their automatic trannys but if they can get that solved theirs will be great too. I don't think the Camrys and Accords of the 80's were that great either. If memory serves me correctly, weren't they plagued with head gasket problems?
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Uh, you can probably take that "transition period" back another decade, to 1973 at least or maybe even '71, when the "Rube Goldberg" emissions controls started to debut.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...my first experience with GM when I bought a used 1968 Buick Special Deluxe was excellent and it kept getting better from that point on.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Just out of curiousity lemko, have you owned anything besides GM?

    edit:

    dammit, driver200..... ;)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    If memory serves me correctly, weren't they plagued with head gasket problems?

    I can't cite any specific brand examples off the top of my head, but in the past two areas that the Japanese traditionally lagged was in air conditioning systems and automatic transmissions. Oh, and rust resistance. I think most of this simply comes from their relative lack of experience with building cars for the American market.

    The automatic transmission first came out in 1939, and I think air automotive air conditioning was soon thereafter. Both of them were overly complicated and unreliable, as they were a new technology at the time, but over the years they were improved upon and became more efficient and reliable/durable.

    Japanese cars really didn't make it big here until the 70's, and even then they were mainly economy models, which meant your chances of having an automatic tranny or air conditioning were slim anyway. And I doubt that they salt the roads in Japan the way they do here, so they probably just had no idea of the conditions the cars would have to endure here in the US.

    So basically, the 70's and early 80's were the learning curve for the Japanese when it came to these areas. The domestics had pretty much gotten the kinks worked out of them years ago, although by the 70's were starting to cut corners in an attempt to reduce costs, slam the cars out the door quicker, and it caused quality to suffer. Then in the later 70's, they were forced with the task of designing lighter transmissions and rear-ends that wouldn't sap as much power from the engine, yet wouldn't self-destruct. And when the engines started getting smaller, they had to design lighter a/c compressors that wouldn't sap as much power. Then the 4-speed automatic overdrive transmissions brought in teething problems of their own.

    But basically yeah, just about any new technology would tend to be troublesome in its early years, often to the point that we might question whether it really is an improvement over what it's trying to replace. I guess two things I can think of though, that seemed like an improvement right from the get-go, were disc front brakes and electronic ignition. Chrysler was the first of the Big Three to start using electronic ignition, and it was pretty reliable. Well, until they started using Lean Burn in '74 on the big-blocks!

    About the only drawback I can see with disc brakes is they add a bit of complexity in pretty much requiring you to have a power assist. A car with adequately-sized drum brakes, even a big car, can still be stopped without too much effort without a power assist. I had a 1967 Newport with manual drums all around, and it had been owned by a fraile little old lady for nearly 30 years before I had it. If she could slow that big car down without any trouble, that's pretty good proof right there. But once you go to disc brakes, it requires a lot more effort to stop, so power assist is almost mandatory.

    But on the plus side, disc brakes do improve your stopping ability, and are less prone to locking up (although for some reason I could lock up the discs on my Intrepid easier than I could the drums on my Dart :confuse: ) It's also a lot easier to change the pads on a disc setup than the shoes on a drum setup. And provided they're the newer type discs with the throwaway rotors, they're even easy and cheap to replace when you chew up a rotor.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Messrs. Ghosn and Wagoner met for more than three hours yesterday at Renault's headquarters outside Paris. During the meeting, Mr. Ghosn said a venture between his companies and GM could save the automakers about $10 billion, according to a person familiar with the matter. But Mr. Wagoner said that GM found the benefits to be disproportionately in favor of Nissan-Renault, and said he would need a contribution in billions of dollars to make any tie-up fair and equitable for all parties, this person said.

    Mr. Ghosn rejected the request, this person said. Mr. Wagoner didn't bargain over it, but said it was an issue that needed to be addressed, this person said.

    After the meeting, Mr. Ghosn said the idea that one partner should make a payment to another was "nonsense," although he was careful not to say specifically that this was an issue with GM. "If you say there is compensation, you are favoring people who stay still" and simply expect a payment based on the gains made by the other party, he said. "It's against the spirit of an alliance."

    Mr. Wagoner said that "the value you create [in an alliance] is important and who gets the value is important." Mr. Wagoner didn't venture into specifics but observed that "we have to find out where the value is, and where it isn't."


    Yea, lets combine companies, one company gets all the benefits. Why would anybody combine with such an inequitable alliance. Makes lots of sense. :confuse:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Come on, not everybody spends every minute here. Maybe he went out of his house for the last 3 hours.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    People buying rental returns? Just a thought.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    :)HEY IMIDAZ....READ AND ANSWER 10671 :confuse:

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    my first experience with GM when I bought a used 1968 Buick Special Deluxe was excellent and it kept getting better from that point on.

    Hope they got better since 1968!

    But, what else have you tried???

    You might be surprised at how much better say a Maxima is than a Buick, an Accord is than a Grand Prix, A Jeep is than a Suburban, a Camry is than an Impala. I have tried those 3 as rental cars in the last few years.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Thanks Rock,

    The Delphi link really got me. It's good and bad in that most see the ship is doing it's last nose dive a la Titanic and they aren't waiting for the band to play on.

    The bad is this can actually help Miller get his cheap pay for hard work!! :mad:

    The Ghosn one kind of hints at GM being cautious, but at the same time being arrogant. Like "Who in the heck is this guy to tell us how "WE" can save money? We have all the answers that will get us through, not outside help needed". But I think they need someone from the outside looking in. And one thing with Ghosn, he really isn't the type to want to do an alliance if BOTH parties can get healthy by it. He looks at it in the sense that if they're partner can't get/stay healthy, then why bother dealing with them. Sure, one party my gain more than the other but it's not going to be a 90/10 deal either.
  • escambiaguyescambiaguy Member Posts: 35
    Back to styling, most Americans will drive small cars only if they don't look like a small car. I think GM done a great job with the Cobalt, while small it still looks fairly mainstream and a little muscular. Toyota deserves credit for the Yaris sedan also, they borrowed styling from the new Camry. Honda is another story, that Fit is ugly! I predict it won't be a big seller in the US. The more foreign a small car looks, the more Americans tend to hate it.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    The transition won't be over unless "Wagoner, Lutz and Co." is kicked out. Mediocrity still rules GM. Read VUE hybrid review at Edmunds' - according to Edmunds this brand new GM vehicle is "Dangerously slow" and "Deadly at wrong hands". Guess what - such a vehicle doesn't even have curtain airbag option and fuel-efficiency is no better than that of a regular CR-V! Yes, I'm talking about a new GM vehicle and not something built in 80's or 90's. All this after the failure of VUE CVT (which has been replaced by 4 speed Auto now) and original V6 VUE (which has been replaced by Honda powered VUE). Don't tell me that America doesn't have engineers and that Japan has them all. GM doesn't hire engineers. GM hires people who understands "bottomline" and has no knowledge of engineering.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    "Back to styling, most Americans will drive small cars only if they don't look like a small car. The more foreign a small car looks, the more Americans tend to hate it."

    Define how a car looks "foreign". I'm already seeing a number of Fits, Yari and Versas. These car are smaller than a Cobalt and probably less expensive to build, yet sell for a higher price.

    Distinctly American cars like the DTS and Monte Carlo are the domain of Fla turnpikes and Nascar event parking lots, not trendsetting urban areas.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Read VUE hybrid review at Edmunds' - according to Edmunds this brand new GM vehicle

    Vue is carryover from 2006. Some new features like the redline perforamance version and Hybrid engine.

    Read the Edmunds review below. Not sure where the "Deadly at the wrong hands" came from or the "dangerously slow"? It did say "painfully slow" though. Not a great review in any case.

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=116867/pageNumber=1
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=116867/pageNumber=2

    This is what I'm referring to. In addition to what I said, I would like to draw your attention to "Poor" ratings for handling and braking.
  • escambiaguyescambiaguy Member Posts: 35
    By looking "foreign",I mean such cars as the Yaris 3dr, Fit, Versa, and sadly the Aveo. These look like the cars you see running the cramped streets in Europe. I agree it would be better if more Americans would buy and drive them. It would solve a lot of the problems we have with gas shortages and pollution. But I think most Americans view these cars as looking too wimpy and wouldn't even consider owning one. I think the Prius could have been more successful if it hadn't been for this type of styling.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I will say I also wish like you Loren, that manuel transmissions were more available.

    Neways: Here's some pricing reports on the new 07' Trucks

    GM Announces Pricing on '07 Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=116952

    GM Releases Details on 2007 Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra Heavy-Duty Pickups

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=116949

    Rocky
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    Americans are hatchback averse, but that's about as far as it goes as far as "foreign" looking cars being hated. If you ask someone what an American looking car is, they'll say bloated and dated.

    If you put an Accord next to a Fusion, you couldn't tell from a distance which one is American and which is foreign. There's no way to tell anymore.
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    Personally, I think the Big 3 are still lacking in many areas, including interior materials, fit and finish, and engine refinement, unsophisticated suspensions, etc. In just about any road test of [insert Ford, GM or Mopar model here], you will read about interiors laden with cheap hard plastics (many times with the casting flash not even trimmed off), poor fit and finish, harsh and raspy engines, door handles breaking off, cheap feeling switchgear, suspension that loses composure when a road gets bumpy, etc. etc. etc..... Now, there are starting to be exceptions, but it is still far too frequent. Durability is an issue, too; look at R&T's long term test of the CTS-V, with complaints about squeaking and groaning suspension, and other niggles. This is something you might expect on a $12K Hundai, but NOT on a $50k Cadillac. One editor said "If this was my car, I would not be a happy camper." They are still more concerned with making big profits, than with building quality automobiles. What they don't seem to get, is that if you build a quality car, the profits take care of themselves, both in increased sales, and in less warranty work being paid out.
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    Funny you mention January. IIRC the last time I paid less than $2.00 gallon ($194.9) was this past January...it was coming down from the Upper $2.00 range and since then bounced back up and recently down. Not near as much painful history of recent high prices compared to a long history of lower gas prices.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    jae, I agree with everything you said pal. I after reading the articles on the Detnews about the sheer cost of health insurance per employee when compared to Canada, is ridiculous. If this nation had national healthcare, for legalized citizens most of GM's problems would be solved.

    Delphi, OTOH I'm not sure what to say about them anymore jae. I'm afraid at some point they won't be a major supplier to GM anymore. My Step-dad is trying to get his IUE Journeymens Card skill-trade of being a
    "maintence mechanic" converted over to a millwright. Currently they are paying $32 per hr. with zero benefits he said. My aunt is a auditor, and has been asked by the UAW, to be a representative. So she is exploring that oppertunity. She admits things are looking up from a buisness perspective. They just got a huge order from Toyota, for Lifters. :)

    My father, is enjoying his retirement. He is mainly doing jobs around the property he's always wanted to get done.

    My other GM/Delphi relatives believe they got out while the getting was good from a finacial standpoint. They said perhaps in 5-10 years the new hires will have a brighter future but they all doubt they will have it as good as they did. :(

    Rocky
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    Well, I've owned a Jeep and an Envoy (not Suburban). Jeep may seem fine while renting, but try and live with it for 3-5 years. LOTS of thing breaking and don't even get into the warped rotor / brake problems.

    To complete the puzzle I have owned:
    Ford Falcon cheap trans
    Chevy Monte Carlo Nice 73
    Datsun 260Z Pretty good and reliable
    Grand Prix nice 84
    Mazda 626 nice
    Toyota Camry nice, slow, boring
    Nissan Quest nice for soccer mom van
    Isuzu Rodeo nice early SUV
    99 Jeep Grand Cherokee nice, but LOTS of problems
    00Jeep Grand Cherokee nice, but LOTS of problems
    Isuzu Trooper nice and durable
    Envoy XL best ride so far

    Plus company cars:
    Ford Galaxy 500 nice, big
    Chevy Monte Carlo decent
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Still just shy of $3 here in Central Coast of California, home of Americas most expensive gas; or very close to it.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Mediocrity still rules GM. Read VUE hybrid review at Edmunds' - according to Edmunds this brand new GM vehicle is "Dangerously slow" and "Deadly at wrong hands". Guess what - such a vehicle doesn't even have curtain airbag option and fuel-efficiency is no better than that of a regular CR-V! Yes, I'm talking about a new GM vehicle and not something built in 80's or 90's. All this after the failure of VUE CVT (which has been replaced by 4 speed Auto now) and original V6 VUE (which has been replaced by Honda powered VUE)

    1. The VUE Hybrid DOES come with a side head curtain airbags.

    2. The VUE Hybrid DOES get better gas mileage than the CRV.

    3. The CVT was a supplier issue, not GM.

    4. GM has BETTER V6 than the Honda, it just did not have capacity at the time. And Honda for its part needed diesels from GM. It will not use the Honda V6 after this year.

    5. Your link also says that the Civic GX is a deadly car. Edmunds might not be guilty of a little hyperbole, mightn't it?
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    $2.06 - $2.19 this morning in Memphis...lowest 4 within a couple of miles of each other dropped from $2.099 Wed morning, $2.079 afternoon to $2.069 Thursday morning... I think we will get a little bounce sometime, but I think it has leveled off a little for now.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Others: 1979 Ford LTD taxicab, 1988 Ford Crown Victoria LX, 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, and 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue. Of all my non-GM cars, I liked the Fifth Avenue the best. My brother still has the car after I sold it to him more than 13 years ago.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    No, I doubt the rental companies buy the upscale CXL and CXS models with every option, though I do see a fair number of the low-end CX models. Sorry, no little green "e" stickers or bar codes!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Good job logic !!!!! You paid very close attention to detail obviously. It sounds like hyperbole, smells like it, so it must be, right ? :surprise:

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    What the heck is R&T doing to their cars? Driving them off bridges? My 1988 Buick Park Avenue makes no squeaks and groans from the suspension or body and neither do any of my other cars for that matter despite their age.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I think they let Evil Knieval borrow them as stunt cars and then do a long-term test lemko so to make GM, look bad. :sick:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Y'all have a great day. I gotta head back to the
    "sweat shop" for a 13 hour tour. See y'all tommorow :P

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    So are they selling a lot of G6 sedans to fleet? Kinda an awkward looking car. The coupe looks OK. A little short of perfect, but let's rate her attractive enough. As for sedans, I would rate the look a notch above Ion. How sales are up 44% is a mystery.

    The Impala redo for a few bucks has really paid out well. Great effort for that team. I wouldn't buy one, but I can see how the looks change panned-out some gold. CTS is a good car in some ways, but some options should be standard. Base model doesn't cut it, and adding up to get the decent model for seats and such adds too much to the bill. DTS is not bad looking - another good effort to eek out a couple of years. Lucerne may buy Buick some time - hard to say how long. Those in need for a large FWD may like the Lucy.

    The Solstice and Sky are sold-out. Not sure how such a very limited sales car is going to lift GM when they could have sold a lot more as the wonderful looking concept coupe. More people would buy the coupe and it would keep a lot of people employed. They could lower the doors a little and raise the seats to take care of the driving a bathtub syndrome. Rather attractive looking cars. Useless door side arm rests - simply unusable. Saw one car with misaligned fender, but that is perhaps not the norm - let's hope. A sexy coupe, with some trunk space and air conditioning standard for say $20K would be fine. Kinda interesting to see the old long list of options on the Solstice. Reminds one of the old days of a few decades back. While it is very nice to see some unnecessary items available ala carte, it seems some should be standard, like air, and other could be bundled in a fluff-car option of some sort.

    Almost forgot about the Saturn Aura. If it really sells for $20,600, it looks like a winner. Comparable to Sonata in most ways, less the electronic stability control on the base model, but you don't really need that. Looks like a lot of car for the money. If I was looking for a FWD sedan car, this would be one of say five I would test drive first.
    This may be a car which does come out ahead in a Head2Head comparison on Net. It is at the very least, a truly competitive car, if sold for $20,600 or less after discounts. Pretty good interior, though I do not like the floor emergency brake. Wish that went out with the hula hoop, but oh no, it hangs on, reappearing from time to time.
    -Loren
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    "3. The CVT was a supplier issue, not GM."

    If it's impacting their product, than it is a GM issue
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    It is not a merger, it is an alliance, meaning all parties have something to gain from the mutual agreement. Certainly it is hardly ever the case that each party to an alliance has EXACTLY the same benefit, right down to the penny. The only thing an alliance guarantees is equal voting rights for all members of the alliance. Which means they have to be deciding right now if there is anything in the future that all three companies could cooperate on to save them all money in the long run.

    Wagoner is a GM board wonk. He is very scared for his job, I would say. GM has shown time and again that it will dump its top execs at the slightest whim. And of course the board has also shown repeatedly that nothing but short-term profits matter to them, which has them seeing dollars and cents at this proposition.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

This discussion has been closed.