General Motors discussions

55396

"Camaro
You already know the answer. Buh Bye !!!! Grand Slam

But if reader reactions to it in the car magazines are any indications it don't look good. I saw some comparing it to a bad Battlestar Gallactica prop."

I couldn't understand why the mags were gushing over the new Camaro. It looks like someone stepped on it. Too low and exaggerated wide looking. There is still time to redo that grille, GM. Some cars do look worse in pictures though. I'll reserve final judgement til I actually see one.

I have reduced my mag subscriptions to only one - Autoweek, and also get my weekly online review from USA Today's Jim Healey who tells it like it is. Motorweek is nothing but fluff. May as well read a brochure.

55396

"The Camaro will win the sales race in the pony war"

Maybe the 'flash in the pan' effect for the first year, but I'll bet the Mustang will have the long term numbers - and I'm not a Mustang fan, but the current one is the first one that I could own.

62vetteefp

Well, what are the GM September sales going to be like?

With gas down will profitable trucks bounce back up? Will small cars still sell? Not much in rebates on the '07 models. Up to $2500 on the old style pick ups. $500 on the Pontiacs. $1000 on the Impalas. Nothing on the LaCrosse but $500 on the Lucerne.

2006 models another story. $2000 on a Buick cars. $500 on HHR and Cobalts. $1500 on Impalas. Now the old Tahoes and Suburbans, etc. still have up to $6000. I wonder how many they have left? Seems like a pretty good deal. G6 V6 is $1000 while the hot G6 Convertibles and 4 cylinders only get $500. They gotta give away the Saabs though- from $2500 to $5000 rebates.

Overall rebates are way down from last year except for the old SUV's and Saab's.

Probably with the huge discounts and gas prices down the '06 SUV's will be a huge percentage of GM sales in September. Folks will have grabbed them while they can.

Will G6 still be way up from last year? Will Cobalt still keep increasing sales?

62vetteefp

I couldn't understand why the mags were gushing over the new Camaro. It looks like someone stepped on it. Too low and exaggerated wide looking. There is still time to redo that grille, GM. Some cars do look worse in pictures though. I'll reserve final judgement til I actually see one.

Perhaps because the Camaro also won the best in design at the auto shows by public vote?

The car is fantastic looking. Will it sell in volume? All depends on how the interior is laid out. If it is like the old one and you have to lay down to drive it, it will have limited sucess. If you can sit up and drive like a normal car it will do great.

wideglide

Probably with the huge discounts and gas prices down the '06 SUV's will be a huge percentage of GM sales in September.

I don't believe sales of large SUV's will ever bounce all the way back, after >$3.00 gas prices this year. Everyone knows that the next confrontation in the midle east or the next hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico (regardless of whether or not it does any damage), and gas will be shooting right back up. I think people are finally starting to realize they don't need a Suburban or Expedition to haul two kids and some groceries, and don't want a 13mpg vehicle when it takes $100 to fill up the tank.

wideglide

Perhaps because the Camaro also won the best in design at the auto shows by public vote?

I personally doubt it beat out the Challenger concept, if they were at the same show.... where is this data coming from?

62vetteefp

Large SUV's will not bounce back to last years record sales unless a magic source of fuel brings the price back down to $2 or so for a long time.

But sales will continue to be high as long as gas is cheap. You stated 2 kids. As a father of 2 I know that if you have 2 kids you need room for 4 kids since we often their carry friends. Minivans just are not that attractive to many. Once the new CUV's with 6-8 passenger capacity are out large SUV's will probably drop about 20-30% in sales. It will be an all out fight for those buyers. GM seems to be on top of that fight today. BUT it will not be as profitable as it once was because of the competition.

rockylee

All, true. However Honda has enough hired guns to help the General out. Pay the union workers Honda hourly wages and improve the overall benefits and you won't hear a peep from the UAW workers. The UAW, workers would love to get $10-20K profit shairing bonuses. Why wouldn't they. Honda and GM, would dominate Toyota. Right, now it's moot. I do feel sorry (not really) for whomever the Big General merges with. A Toyota-GM, merge would most certainly put Honda under. If not under they'd be making engines and that's about it. Toyota-Honda, would put about everyone out of buisness though. :surprise:

Rocky

atlvibe

Didn't Ford just lower it MSRP prices on it's large SUVS'? Makes you wonder which vehicle the consumer will choose. A deeply discounted and dated Ford Expedition or the new GM SUV with less of a price break ?

rockylee

It probably will be...

That's what one of the car mags said.

Rocky

62vetteefp

There are many different websites that gave the Camaro the winning votes, but I cannot post themn here. But:

http://www.autoweek.com/files/specials/2006_detroit/chevy/camaro/pages/01.htm

http://autos.msn.com/as/article.aspx?xml=EyesOnDesign&shw=autoshow2006

http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/show/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54&

From Autoweb.
Call us predictable, but we unanimously chose the Chevrolet Camaro Concept as one of the studs of the 2006 North American International Auto Show. Considered to be “retro done right” by our staff, the Camaro is at once contemporary and classic, the perfect blend of modern style and yesteryear’s design cues. That goes for the interior, too. And if it makes production with its Corvette-derived, 400-horse, 6.0-liter V8 and 30-mpg highway fuel economy rating, the Camaro will prove to be newfound muscle for the masses.

xrunner2

I couldn't understand why the mags were gushing over the new Camaro. It looks like someone stepped on it. Too low and exaggerated wide looking. There is still time to redo that grille, GM. Some cars do look worse in pictures though. I'll reserve final judgement til I actually see one.

Marketplace will decide whether or not Camaro styling is good or not. Will it be another Aztek? IMHO, it is a style that only Batman and Rodman would like.

rorr

"BTW, how many OHC engines, at least OHC engines for the masses, are putting out close to 100 hp/liter?"

My Celica GTS, with a 1.8, is rated at 180hp. Of course, it lasts for about 12ms before I've got to shift (right before the fuel cutoff at around 8200rpm). There's a reason why my wife named my car "Sybil"........

rockylee

You don't see a lot of imports in Michigan either

you need to take a drive through all of western michigan :surprise: You'd be very surprised. Sure it's no Salt Lake City where 99% of the right-winged people own a camcord, but still it's pretty high.

Rocky

rockylee

Your accessment might be correct, and is why I believe that.

Rocky

rorr

"I Spike TV on television and on a car concept contest the Camaro won in a landslide."

Of course it did; isn't Spike TV like 'Mullet Central'? :P

rockylee

LOL, Yeah but still. Joe Dirt-ish. I didn't see any Brandy's either (Britney Daniel) However the Camaro does rock.

Rocky

rorr

Actually, I think that GM did much better with the styling on the Camaro than they did with the decision to bring the Monaro over from Holden and slap 'GTO' badges on it.

The Camaro styling is polarizing; doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground on that car, which is probably (IMO) a good thing in that segment.

I think that GM's biggest problem re: the Camaro is being late (again) to the party.....just sitting back and HANDING Ford a 4 year lead in that segment is inexcusable.

imidazol97

Peak horsepower at 6000 rpm in little imports doesn't mean anything for 99% of drivers. We don't drive at 5000-6000 rpm at full throttle.

Look at the TORQUE ratings at normal driver, normal usable speeds for the motors. That's what makes a difference. Mate a quality, well-designed gearing wise transmission to it and you have a great driving combo.

At least you don't have a 5-speed Camry 4 cyl I was reading about dropping into 3rd because of overpasses loading the motor at wheezy lower rpms.

logic1

The next CTS will match or beat the Infinity hp.

The Vette Z06 gets what, 600 hps out of a naturally aspirated engine. It sure is not 7 litres.

rockylee

How big is it ?

Rocky

rockylee

Agree....However it's better late than never.

Rocky

andre1969

of diminishing returns with additional transmission gears. No matter how many gears you have, there's still a maximum rpm the engine can rev at before it self destructs, and a minimum it can rev before it either stalls out at idle or loses speed on hills.

A lot of it depends on the engine, too. If the engine is small, underpowered, or has a peaky torque curve, it's going to benefit more from an additional gear than an engine that is strong and has a broad torque curve.

I think a lot of engines could benefit in the move from a 4-speed to a 5-speed automatic. However, I don't know if there's much advantage in going from a 5-speed to a 6-speed. And anything more is probably overkill unless you're riding a bike or driving a big rig.

varmint

"Honda likes subtle solutions to problems, and it is NOT looking to dominate the world the way Toyota seems to be. It is seeking higher per-unit profits instead."

They also seem to be interested in areas outside the automotive arena.

The car and motorcycle divisions have been chugging along without too many missteps. Not much needs to change there.

However, I'm sure they see future growth in the airplane business, the alternative fuels business, and, of course, power equipment.

gsemike

"The next CTS will match or beat the Infinity hp."

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Let's talk about what available now, not the miracle car that is two or three years away. Either way, coming 2 years late to the party to match hp is pretty impressive and it will have an OHC engine anyway, right?

m1miata

I thought people were looking at the Challenger more at these shows. The cartoon version of a Camaro is one heck of a monster indeed. Too wide, a chop top car for me. The original Camaro was the most beautiful car GM ever made in its price class. The 2nd generation and 4th were quite the lookers too. I would make a smaller version of the Camaro instead of larger, not worry about it being a muscle car, and shoot for total performance, which includes quality, gas mileage and handling. Let Ford and Chrysler brag about muscle while gas prices hit the $4 to $5 range. Muscle car is a limit production anyway.
Personally, I would like to see the Solstice Coupe as a Camaro, though they may have to get rid of the bathtub effect. Not sure how high you can pump up those seats before your head hits the roof. I want my windows back! BTW, the doors on the Solstice have no usable arm rest, and the window sill is high enough there is no easy way to rest an elbow there. Overall look is great - just modify, and add the coupe to the line-up, with air conditioning for $20K.
-Loren

m1miata

Parts is parts, they all look the same to me. Unless we are talking something like the Murano, which is pretty cool looking, most all of those SUVs look like a block of steel. An SUV is an appliance. If you buy the Hyundai appliance the cost is likely lower and warranty is the best. And if fashion is key, the Murano is pretty cool.
-Loren

m1miata

If you can't drive fast with 200HP, 600 won't do you any good.
-Loren

wideglide

The Vette Z06 gets what, 600 hps out of a naturally aspirated engine. It sure is not 7 litres.

It's 505 HP, and actually, it is exactly 7 litres (427 ci). It is one kick-[non-permissible content removed] engine, for sure! I've always wondered why Chevy's small block came out so well, and most of the other motors were.... Well, I did like the 396/375hp in my old '70 Chevelle SS, too!

sls002

As more gears are added, the CVT transmission makes more sense. However, GM's 6 speed automatics are much better than their RWD 5 speed automatics in terms of getting both more performance and better fuel economy. The basic 4 speed automatics have a 2.95 (or so) :1 low gear and the overdrive ratio is about 0.7:1 (some are 0.68). The RWD 5 speed has a 3.42:1 low gear, but the overdrive is 0.75, so overall there is little advantage except that there is an extra gear in between first and overdrive.

The six speed automatics have a wider range in gears, with first about 4.5:1 (FWD) or 4:1 (RWD). Overdrive on the FWD's is 0.75:1 and on the RWD it is 0.67:1. Most of GM FWD cars get an economy axle ratio of about 2.80:1. With the six speed FWD transmission, low gear with have a lot better performance, even if the axle ratio is adjusted to keep the same overdrive gearing.

sls002

There are two basic advantages to the overhead camshaft: 1) with double ohc's the intake and exhaust valve timing can vary independly; 2) double intake and exhaust valves seem to be easier to design - at least there are not many pushrod engines with 4 valves per cylinder.

The basic advantage of double valves is that the engine will breath easier - this increases the torque and horsepower.

Variable valve timing makes tuning the engine for low speed torque and high speed power easier.

GM has variable valve timing on some of their pushrod engines.

BMW's M3 engines are not what I would consider general purpose mass produced engines.

55396

"If you can't drive fast with 200HP, 600 won't do you any good."

Ya, but it sure is fun yo get up to "not too fast" in a hurry.

logic1

1. New CTS is only a few months away.
2. Woulda, coulda, shoulda where is Nissan/Infinity/Renualts answer to the Z06? For the price, where is anyones for that matter?
3. I was not arguing OHC/OHV but rather the implication GM can only make large hp with a supercharger. An obviously false statement to anyone with even a small amount of knowledge on GM's product lines.

sls002

338,380
down about 7% from last year
Year to date is off about 11%

logic1

Why even bother with 200hp if that is the concern?

sls002

I think the base engine for the 2008 CTS will be the 3.6, the direct injection 3.6 will be optional.

55396

"at least there are not many pushrod engines with 4 valves per cylinder"

Maybe pushrods/lifters can't handle the extra load and weight of 4 valves reliably.

gsemike

2. Woulda, coulda, shoulda where is Nissan/Infinity/Renualts answer to the Z06? For the price, where is anyones for that matter?

The Z06 is a fantasitc car that nobody matches. Too bad it's off on an island and not trickling down to superior mass market products and even an acceptable 50k CTS-V

3. I was not arguing OHC/OHV but rather the implication GM can only make large hp with a supercharger. An obviously false statement to anyone with even a small amount of knowledge on GM's product lines.

Don't be silly. Nobody said that. Don't trash someone for making an "obviously false statement" when it's not something that they said at all. What was said was the GM had to slap a supercharger on the 3.8 to squeeze 245 horse out of it while the import competitors have smaller naturally aspirated engines that approach 300.

btw: What is your source that the next 6 cyl CTS will have more than 300 horse?

gsemike

illogic, Even Edmunds says that the CTS will only get 280 horse so who's making obviously false statements?

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=116604

logic1

illogic, Even Edmunds says that the CTS will only get 280 horse so who's making obviously false statements?

Gitchigoomi, Edmunds also said the Malibu did not have abs (and when I challenged them on it, they took about a month to send an e-mail to me saying, oops we goofed, but never a general retraction).

I have seen the 300 hp CTS on multiple sources. There are several entire threads on a well known GM fan site.

sls002

FOR RELEASE: 2006-05-18
GM Powertrain Unveils 3.6-Liter VVT Engine With Direct Injection
The application of direct injection technology to the 3.6-liter VVT engine - a member of GM Powertrain's family of high-feature V-6 powerplants used on cars and trucks around the world - contributes greatly to a 15-percent increase in horsepower over the current levels that range from 240 to 267; an 8-percent increase in torque, and up to a 3-percent improvement in brake-specific fuel consumption (BSFC). An approximate 25-percent reduction in cold-start hydrocarbon emissions is also achieved.

this was taken from GM's press release found in their archives. A back of the envelope computation suggests that about 275 lb-ft of torque should be possible, and horsepower should be around 295 based on the current CTS's 252 lb-ft of torque and 255 horsepower ratings. However, some of the 3.6 engines for the crossover vehicles have about 265 horsepower - you do the math.

logic1

Don't be silly. Nobody said that. Don't trash someone for making an "obviously false statement" when it's not something that they said at all. What was said was the GM had to slap a supercharger on the 3.8 to squeeze 245 horse out of it while the import competitors have smaller naturally aspirated engines that approach 300.

Gitchigoomi, by comparing an engine GM uses on far less expensive cars than the Nissan you cited, it is clear what you were trying to do.

It gets tiresome.

wideglide

Gitchigoomi, by comparing an engine GM uses on far less expensive cars than the Nissan you cited, it is clear what you were trying to do.

The Altima isn't all that expensive, last time I checked... Certainly less than a CTS.

lahiri

Not that bad if you look at the retail sales only. Here's what GM's website says about September sales: "Retail sales of 246,797 vehicles were down 3 percent on a sales day-adjusted basis."

I guess GM is reaching a point where good new Chevys are needed. Silverado is all new. Chevy needs a new Malibu immediately and a new Equinox in a year.

gsemike

The V6 supercharged Impala SS could be over 30 with options. How much less was it that a G35 that had most of the Impala's options standard.

Gitchiwhat????? Tiring is a good word

sls002

if they made a profit on the sales that will be good.

sls002

I think that the Impala SS is a V8 without supercharging :P

lahiri

Well, GM's sales are down (retail Sept sales down 3%) and management is claiming success - this tells me that the management is a big joke.

Toyota's sales are up 25% and its management still wants to increase the breadth of the product line!

GM's management has loser's mindset. I'll wait till this management goes before buying next GM.

logic1

The Altima isn't all that expensive, last time I checked... Certainly less than a CTS.

According to Edmunds, the highest HP Altima is the Se-R with 260hp and a 26 to almost 28k sticker for a car without rwd.

logic1

Well, SLS beat to the punch on the SS.

Don't know what Gitchigoomi is? Guess I just have 'Superior' knowledge (that is a hint, not an insult)

Tiring is a good word

Your apology is accepted.