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Comments
The 08' Malibu, should take a good slice from the camcord
Rocky
Rocky
The 08' Malibu, should take a good slice from the camcord
Rocky, you know we love your posts and your passion. But it's *always* the thing that will be coming out in a year or two that is going to be the home run. Home runs are always current year +2! When are we going to get to see those home runs leave the park? Here are some predicted home runs that are already delivered:
Quad 4
Cobalt
G6
Vue CVT
Vue Green line (read latest C&D, they give it a poor review)
The upcoming home runs are supposed to be:
Aura (may have some chance with this one)
Two-phase hybrids
'08 Malibu (a big chunk out of CamCord per your comment)
Zeta platform cars
Camaro
I guess we'll see how all of those future home runs do, the earlier list of home runs that are already out ended up somewhere between pop flies and base hits.
Rocky
tlong, I love ya also pal. I mean that with all sincerity but my gosh pal, C&D reporting has about as much truth with me and others as Joseph Goebels. Seriously. I've read C&D, and the biasness and reporting is yellow and obvious. They have never liked GM, and won't give them credit for anything. The Saturn Greenline, is a fine execution of engineering. $22K get's ya the most fuel efficient SUV on the planet. "what a deal, right" ? Not if you believe the Anti-GM propaganda from sources like C&D. Motor Trend surprised me with some good words about the Greenline. :surprise:
Quad 4
Whats that got to do with anything anymore ? :confuse:
Cobalt
Sure the interior is outdated but it's a strong seller and still kinda sporty.
G6
A nice inexpensive sporty coupe/sedan. Will be nicer in GTX trim and 270 hp. Very popular in the rust belt regions where FWD is the most practical option. Sells and looks better both inside and out than the Grand-Am.
Vue CVT
VUE is a home run, especially the Honda engine Redline.
Vue Green line (read latest C&D, they give it a poor review)
The cheapest and most fuel efficient hybrid SUV on the market. Will be a big seller for Saturn.
The upcoming home runs are supposed to be:
Aura (may have some chance with this one)
This one is hit like a asteroid out of the park for a Grand Slam
Two-phase hybrids -see above post
'08 Malibu (a big chunk out of CamCord per your comment
Looks like a $35-40K car, the dealers say. Will be a huge sales success :shades: = Grand Slam
Zeta platform cars
Jose Canseco, uses the Zeta bat for 550 ft. moon shots :P
We both know that's a home run. It will be a 650 ft. Galaxy shot if they make my Buick Velite Convertible. :shades:
Camaro
You already know the answer.
I guess we'll see how all of those future home runs do, the earlier list of home runs that are already out ended up somewhere between pop flies and base hits.
Compared to what pal ?
Okay the quad 4 and Cobalt are Detroit Tiger, ground rule doubles.
Rocky :shades:
1 - You say C&D is biased, reviews are no good. Others say CU reporting is no good. If we all want to knock the reporting of any periodical that says what we don't like about our favorite cars/car companies, then there's not much defense, is there?
2 - Previous GM efforts:
Quad 4 - a ways back, I remember reading a car mag article about how advanced this engine was going to be. It had lots of problems and was dropped. This is important because a good 4cyl engine is one of the reasons Honda, Toyota, Mazda are so competitive in the entry sector. It was a pop fly, even the rookie outfielder easily caught it!
Cobalt - the "new, competitive replacement for the Cavalier". It's selling OK, but a high fraction to fleets. It's a single.
VUE CVT - Transmission was a disaster. It was a strikeout. You say VUE is a hit with Honda engine. Yes, engine at least is a hit!
VUE Green Line - You say a home run. C&D says it sorta sucks. Let's see how the market treats it. I'd guess it'll be a bunt single at best.
Aura - You say a huge home run. I say it looks pretty good, but let's see how sales go -- too soon to tell. I predict it's a double (which means about the best of recent GM automobile offerings), as it's going to take more than one decent car to gain back midsized market share.
G6 - Excellent commercials teased us about this new mystery car. A fair effort, pretty bland looking. I'd call this another single. You say the same batter will return in the bottom of the 9th inning in GTX trim and 270hp to hit a home run. I say that's another future claim, we'll see.
Two-phased hybrids, '08 Malibu, Zeta platform, Camaro - you claim home runs, I say they're all talk and not here yet. Let's see how the market accepts them.
I didn't even bring up other predicted home runs: GTO (strikeout), LaCrosse (bunt single), Lucerne (a walk). Only recent home runs in the car sector are Solstice and Sky, but they're in the farm club and don't count for much in the big leagues (they are low volume cars). No big league home runs yet in the car market for GM.
1 - You say C&D is biased, reviews are no good. Others say CU reporting is no good. If we all want to knock the reporting of any periodical that says what we don't like about our favorite cars/car companies, then there's not much defense, is there?
It's not a matter of so much what they say, but I don't like the cheap shots that GM, gets by the editors. If Toyota has a flaw they mention it in a few words and that's the neding of it. If a GM, car has a dislike about it they keep bringing it up over and over again throughout the article. It's biased written. I don't understand why the media wanted to take down GM, instead of reporting the problems in this country and why it's so hard to compete. The media would rather slash workers wages, instead of making the competition play somewhat fair. The UAW, is going to have to loosen its strings next contract but even the right-winged "Harbour Report" said that the U.S. Government, could do more to save the Big 3 in North America.
2 - Previous GM efforts:
Quad 4 - a ways back, I remember reading a car mag article about how advanced this engine was going to be. It had lots of problems and was dropped. This is important because a good 4cyl engine is one of the reasons Honda, Toyota, Mazda are so competitive in the entry sector. It was a pop fly, even the rookie outfielder easily caught it!
Well now we have the Ecotec 4 a Wards top 10 engine.
The quad 4 was a pop fly which I agee.
Cobalt - the "new, competitive replacement for the Cavalier". It's selling OK, but a high fraction to fleets. It's a single.
Okay I agree.
VUE CVT - Transmission was a disaster. It was a strikeout.
Agree !!!
You say VUE is a hit with Honda engine. Yes, engine at least is a hit!
A "inside the park home-run" because they borrowed it from Honda.
VUE Green Line - You say a home run. C&D says it sorta sucks. Let's see how the market treats it. I'd guess it'll be a bunt single at best.
LOL, Come-on it's at least a double. After the sales come in we will see if it get's caught stealing.
Aura - You say a huge home run. I say it looks pretty good, but let's see how sales go -- too soon to tell. I predict it's a double (which means about the best of recent GM automobile offerings), as it's going to take more than one decent car to gain back midsized market share.
I still think it's easily a home-run
G6 - Excellent commercials teased us about this new mystery car. A fair effort, pretty bland looking. I'd call this another single. You say the same batter will return in the bottom of the 9th inning in GTX trim and 270hp to hit a home run. I say that's another future claim, we'll see.
Based on styling, it's a single, but stoled second because of sales volume.
Two-phased hybrids, '08 Malibu, Zeta platform, Camaro - you claim home runs, I say they're all talk and not here yet. Let's see how the market accepts them.
Two-phased hybrid is here already. It's a home-run. The others are still "on-deck" :P
I didn't even bring up other predicted home runs: GTO (strikeout),
Agree. If the styling would of looked like a GTO should of then it would of been a Homer. It's a shame a fine car like it had to where the legendary GTO name and the people rejected it. Maybe next time it's up to back it will swing for the fences.
LaCrosse (bunt single),
Agree... 07' suppose to get LS-4. maybe a contact hitter at best.
Lucerne (a walk).
What ? It's at least Triple. I see quite a few of them on the road and it replaced the Aurora, Lesabre, Park Avenue, Regal. It will be a home-run once it goes RWD.
Only recent home runs in the car sector are Solstice and Sky, but they're in the farm club and don't count for much in the big leagues (they are low volume cars). No big league home runs yet in the car market for GM.
tlong, you are crazy. We have lots of Home Runs at GM. SUV's, Trucks, and most others are driving the ball in the outfield and we are scoring.
Rocky
Come back pal, and let us know you are at least okay.
Anyone seen any signs of Socala ? It's like a UFO, grabbed him and took him away. :sick: Well if anyone knows him personally I'd like to know he's okay. He was a great guy.
The same goes for dieselone
Rocky
Car & Driver are decent. They do constructive, impartial reviews. You cannot run and cry "bias" whenever a GM car gets a bad review. Now, I like GM, always have, and I believe they field some pretty good entries. But the fact remains that many of their entries are bettered by the competition.
The Vue? An improvement since facelift, but the interior still needs work. G6? Attractive, but the pushrod engines and low-budget interior need to be fixed. And don't say "pushrod engines are just fine". No. That's the exact same mantra that has pushed GM to the spot it is today. GM CARS CANNOT BE MERELY "GOOD ENOUGH" While I understand that there are budget constraints and a lot of brands to juggle, GM cannot rely on the fact that G6/Cobalt/TrailBlazer/Lucerne are all better than Grand Am/Cavalier/Blazer/LeSabre. GM should either offer better or at the very least, "alternative" options. Every single model they field should be very much class-competitive or class-leading.
Rocky
P.S.
Are the OHV's really better than GM's Pushrods ? They seems to last about as long. It also seems pushrods put out more power, why ?
The Duramax, is still the Benchmark for diesel power.
Rocky
It would be a match made in heaven.
Rocky
I'm sure the torque steer is there, it's just that it might not be that bad, or Imidazol97 is just used to it and knows how to react accordingly when he drives. Or a combination thereof. I don't think you can eliminate torque steer completely from a FWD car, but some are going to be better balanced than others. It's probably not enough to be dangerous, but just something you have to get used to.
FWIW, mounting the engine longitudinally in an FWD car isn't necessarily the answer. My Intrepid has some torque steer. Punch it when you're trying to go around a sharp corner and you'll feel it, although in straight-line acceleration it's not that bad. My '88 LeBaron turbo coupe was much worse.
And when an FWD car starts doing that reverse-fishtail thing in the rain, it can be umm, an experience! :surprise: Especially if you're used to it being the other end that usually fishtails!
Oh yeah, they really hated the Z06 Corvette, didn't they? They give credit where it's due... and knocks where it isn't. Unlike Motor Trend, who never met a car they didn't like. I used to keep a copy of MT in the medicine cabinet, as a subsitute for ippecacac of syrup!
Camaro
You already know the answer. Buh Bye !!!! Grand Slam
Uhhh, is that why it's been out of production since '02? You mean the upcoming one? Didn't know you had a crystal ball.... But if reader reactions to it in the car magazines are any indications it don't look good. I saw some comparing it to a bad Battlestar Gallactica prop. They should have kept it more retro looking, ala Mustang, and the new Challenger, which people are falling all over themselves for. Which also means that niche segment is already going to be very crowded, with the Mustang & Challenger (not to mention the Z-350 & G-35). Camaro/Firebird couldn't make it against just the OLD Mustang, how are they going to make it now???
And the Quad Four was a strikeout, maybe a foul-tip at best... If it wasn't for fleet sales to rental companies, where would the Cobalt be?
Working?!? That explains all those layoffs and plant closings! That's "working"??? As far as I can see, he is a slash and burn beancounter, much the same as Roger Smith. If anyone can save GM, it's Lutz.
Are the OHV's really better than GM's Pushrods ? They seems to last about as long. It also seems pushrods put out more power, why ?
OHV ARE pushrod motors! So are "cam-in-block", nice case of marketing over engineering there... And no, they don't put out more power. Show me a pushrod motor (non-boosted, and in production form) that puts out more than 100hp per litre. Hell, show me one that even comes close to 100hp/litre!
I think you meant to say OHC, didn't you Rocky? Anyway, do we really wanna open THAT can of worms again? :P
FWIW, I think for any given displacement, an OHC engine will give more peak power than a pushrod. The OHC will most likely get that peak hp at a higher rpm, which on the surface doesn't sound so bad, but at the same time it'll be able to rev up to that higher rpm more quickly.
In the past, OHC engines usually had very little low-end grunt compared to a pushrod engine of the same size. That was because since they could rev faster, the designers took advantage of that and had their peak hp come in at the higher rpm. However, that came at the cost of low-end power. Once they started getting into variable intake, timing and such though, you could get more power across the board, instead of just getting either high-end or low-end power.
FWIW though, big improvements have been made in pushrod engines too. They're making the torque curves broader so that these traditionally low-end-grunt engines can also boast higher-rpm power as well. OHCs will still be able to rev faster though, because the cams operate the valves directly, eliminating the pushrods and the rocker shafts.
The advantages of OHC also tend to diminish as engine size goes up. While a 2.0 4-cyl that's DOHC would be a much better performer than a 2.0 pushrod, once you get up to larger displacements, the advantage isn't so great. For instance, moving up to a GM pushrod 3.5 V-6 versus Nissan's DOHC 3.5 V-6. Sure, there's still a difference, but it's not AS bad. And then if you move up to something like Nissan's 5.6 DOHC V-8, versus Chrysler's 5.7 Hemi, the performance gap diminishes even further.
Then there's cost. Usually, OHC engines are more expensive to build and repair than pushrod engines. However, in Chrysler's case, when they came out with that 4.7 OHC V-8 a few years back, it was actually cheaper to build than the old pushrod Magnum 5.2/5.9 V-8's. But then the Hemi ended up being cheaper to build than the 4.7! So if you go out and buy a Hemi Mopar, which you pay more for, you're actually SAVING Chrysler money! :P
Anyway, I'm sure this pushrod versus OHC debate will go on forever, without resolution. Kinda like how many licks it takes to get to the tootsie-roll center of a tootsie-pop!
I think one bit of evidence in favor of OHC though, is how many manufacturers use it these days. I don't think anybody even uses pushrod for 4-cylinder engines anymore. Ford (3.9/4.2) Chrysler (3.3/3.8) and GM (3.4/3.5/3.8/3.9/4.3) still use them for V-6 engines, but OHC seems to be the overwhelming favorite in this type of engine. And with V-8's I think only GM and Chrysler are using pushrods.
Anyway, I do look forward to the return of a RWD Impala or Buick. I just hope they're here when I'm ready to buy my next car.
That's THREE! Just ask the owl....
I drove a friend's Pacifica and felt some twist in the car's movement when I accelerated. I don't find that in my car when I do the rare full or nearly full throttle acceleration.
I do recall same friend's Civic CVCC in Charleston while he was in Navy and when you accelerated in that pile of junk you ended up in the next lane if you didn't twist the steering wheel to compensate.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's my understanding that the average transaction price on the Impala and full-size SUVs are up. That is what their goal should be. If the Civic/Corolla goes for 15, GM should be looking to make a Cobalt that's good enough to go for 15.
If it costs them a grand more to make a Cobalt that's worth 15 instead of 12, they'll still be 2 grand ahead. You're not going to make the money that you need to per unit if the units are only selling because of discounts.
The targets for the following models should be:
Cobalt - 14-15k
Malibu - 18k
G6 - 20k
I don't think that Rick Wagoner and Kirk Kerkorkian themselves would drop this dough for those cars.
Torque Steer - It's not an issue in every day driving with any remotely competent design. I've read that for now, about 250 horses are the most that you can channel through the front wheels. My Altima at 175 horse has some torque steer. When do I experience? Practically never and when I do, it's not hard to control.
I am an enthusiast, but for my daily driving I'm not stomping on the gas at every light or peeling around corners. Even with the front drive 4 cyl, I can get on the highway and set the cruise to 80 with no problems and no drama. That will satisfy most buyers.
What did they do go get the opinions from the local Mustang club, come-on it further proves my point. I Spike TV on television and on a car concept contest the Camaro won in a landslide. The Camaro will win the sales race in the pony war for the first time ever with the 09'. I'm going out on a limb and "Gaurantsheeding" it at the very least
Rocky
I heard those old FWD cars ate up front tires very fast, but when you figure the tire technology back then, plus the fact that they were probably putting an Altima's worth of weight down on just two tires, I guess that's to be expected.
Ummmmm, have you not read Lutz's latest comments ? Go to the Bob Lutz is he making the grade forum. The guy is a Wacko who needs a pink piece of paper that says you're fired from Rick.
OHV ARE pushrod motors! So are "cam-in-block", nice case of marketing over engineering there... And no, they don't put out more power. Show me a pushrod motor (non-boosted, and in production form) that puts out more than 100hp per litre. Hell, show me one that even comes close to 100hp/litre!
Okay, I don't know alot about the mechanics of engines. I just know alot about power out puts.
Rocky
Yes Andre, I must of slept through it last time you gave class. :P
FWIW, I think for any given displacement, an OHC engine will give more peak power than a pushrod. The OHC will most likely get that peak hp at a higher rpm, which on the surface doesn't sound so bad, but at the same time it'll be able to rev up to that higher rpm more quickly.
Yeah a OHC-er was what my former 3.2 Acura TL was. They are often smoother right ?
FWIW though, big improvements have been made in pushrod engines too. They're making the torque curves broader so that these traditionally low-end-grunt engines can also boast higher-rpm power as well. OHCs will still be able to rev faster though, because the cams operate the valves directly, eliminating the pushrods and the rocker shafts.
Thanks I'm actually paying closer attention this go-around.
The advantages of OHC also tend to diminish as engine size goes up. While a 2.0 4-cyl that's DOHC would be a much better performer than a 2.0 pushrod, once you get up to larger displacements, the advantage isn't so great. For instance, moving up to a GM pushrod 3.5 V-6 versus Nissan's DOHC 3.5 V-6. Sure, there's still a difference, but it's not AS bad. And then if you move up to something like Nissan's 5.6 DOHC V-8, versus Chrysler's 5.7 Hemi, the performance gap diminishes even further.
Okay got a question. Are OHC more expensive to make than a push-rod ?
Then there's cost. Usually, OHC engines are more expensive to build and repair than pushrod engines. However, in Chrysler's case, when they came out with that 4.7 OHC V-8 a few years back, it was actually cheaper to build than the old pushrod Magnum 5.2/5.9 V-8's. But then the Hemi ended up being cheaper to build than the 4.7! So if you go out and buy a Hemi Mopar, which you pay more for, you're actually SAVING Chrysler money!
Okay you answered my cost question, whats technically the difference between a Hemi, GM push-rod ?
Anyway, I'm sure this pushrod versus OHC debate will go on forever, without resolution. Kinda like how many licks it takes to get to the tootsie-roll center of a tootsie-pop!
You probably are right.
I think one bit of evidence in favor of OHC though, is how many manufacturers use it these days. I don't think anybody even uses pushrod for 4-cylinder engines anymore. Ford (3.9/4.2) Chrysler (3.3/3.8) and GM (3.4/3.5/3.8/3.9/4.3) still use them for V-6 engines, but OHC seems to be the overwhelming favorite in this type of engine. And with V-8's I think only GM and Chrysler are using pushrods.
Well then GM, Ford, Chrysler should switch right ?
Rocky
Rocky
A more important question, however, might be how much torque per liter are those OHC engines putting out? Pushrods too for that matter. There's an old saying that Americans buy horsepower but drive torque. And torque usually comes from disaplacement.
BTW, how many OHC engines, at least OHC engines for the masses, are putting out close to 100 hp/liter? How many 2-liter engines put out 200 hp? How many 3-liter engines put out 300 hp? And how many 4-liter engines are putting out 400 hp? Most OHC engines seem to put out about 60-80 hp per liter Your typical pushrod is going to be less. For example, a 205 hp 3.8 translates to about 53 pounds per liter. So yeah, usually an OHC will put out more hp per liter, but most of them still aren't pushing 100 hp per liter!
Rocky
Rocky
An '08 Malibu that comes with a 6-speed manual or 6-speed auto across the board, a 2.8HF V6 for the base engine, a 3.6HF for the midline, a hybrid 2.8HF, and a 3.6HF turbo with AWD for the SS; that Malibu should take a good slice from the Camcord.
An '08 Malibu with a 4-speed and a pushrod V6 or V8; just turn the lights out.
Nope, just unsolicited comments from R&T readers the month after the Camaro concept was shown in the mag... Negative comments ran about 5 to 1 over positive. Too futuristic looking, most said. And those are the customers that buy Camaros and Mustangs, not Consumer Reports readers, who buy Camrys and Malibus...
'04-'06 BMW M3... 3.2L, 320hp. There are others, although generally in the exotics (Ferrari, etc.). Heck, even my '00 Contour put out 82hp/litre, with 205hp from a 2.5L...
Rocky
Don't you have anything better to do then to start a new "NEVER to Happen" topic.
Think Saab. Doesn't matter, there isn't a chance in hell that it'll ever happen.
Agree....
Rocky
Rocky
Don't you have anything better to do then to start a new "NEVER to Happen" topic.
I thought it would be appropriate to at least briefly mention it with all the merge rumors circulating at GMHQ with Kerkorkian. If you don't want to participate, then ignore. :confuse:
Rocky
That is most likely, but it's kinda fun to "what if" once in a while because neither you or I can predict the future unless you are Cleo. :P
Rocky
However, I thought the topic here was HONDA buying GM. If it were a sale, Honda could kill what they didn't need and take just what they could use. GM as we know it would be decimated, and somehow I think the American pride would not allow a blow this severe.
Even though Honda could use some things GM has (like a Corvette V-8, and a full-size truck platform), those are things it doesn't have now because they have run counter to Honda's engineering culture. Honda likes subtle solutions to problems, and it is NOT looking to dominate the world the way Toyota seems to be. It is seeking higher per-unit profits instead.
For instance, if Honda had really wanted a V-8 before now, it would have just built one, I believe. Instead, they skipped right over 8 and went with 10, for the new NSX and perhaps a future halo sedan for the Acura line.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That should be the next RL.
Rocky
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not to mention the union hassles that they would have to inherit...
Well geez, that's like the Tokyo paper asking for opinions on a Toyota!
Just a comment. Our 03 Avalon has no noticeable torque steer, and it's not lacking for power. We also tried out a Maxima. LOTS of torque steer, and I found it to be totally unacceptable in a design today.
Well, if that's the case, you know where resale will be when they get dumped back on the used market. This is a real problem.