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I'd actually pick the Buick out of the three, too.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Also, this is just wrong somehow.
ROFL at the golf cart. Wow, they know their target market. Hey, they have a Benz too!
The Avalon kind of has the "1958 Oldsmobile complex" when it comes to its taillights. Remember the old story about how the chrome on the '58 Olds came to be? Back then, when the stylists were picking out chrome choices they'd have a drawing of a plain, chromeless red car, and have the chrome pieces put on a transparent overlay that you could place over the red car and see how it would look. Well, evidently, two or three of those transparencies got stuck together, and when applied to the car, the top brass took one look, fell in love, and said "Go with it!" Okay, probably an urban legend, but can anyone come up with a better excuse as to why the '58 Olds came out the way it did? :P
Well, the same thing appears to have happened with the Avalon's taillights. The sections on the trunk are totally unnecessary, and don't jive up at all with the outer parts of the taillight. So they should have just eliminated them. or, they could have trimmed the outer taillights so that the tops of them matched the tops of the lights on the trunk. That would've made it look vaguely like the earlier pre-catfish Tauruses, but pleasant enough. As it is though, it's just a confused mess. The whole rump of the car just looks clunky to me.
As for the Azera, I don't think the back's all that bad, just disproportionate. The taillight theme would look more at home on a Honda Accord. The car still doesn't know whether it wants to be a hatchback or a sedan, though. It would look better on a longer wheelbase, with the rear axle further back in relation to the C-pillar.
When you line up the pictures of back view, there is no question that the Avalon is the class of the 3. The Avalon has a hint of the styling elegance from Lexus. The Lucerne back looks like it belongs on an updated Cavalier or Asian compact and not an American entry lev lux. One reviewer, from Edmunds I think, has said that the Lucerne back end is similar to new model of VW Passat, which itself is kind of an overall awkward design. Lucerne back end looks meek, kind of like a high pitched voice of front of old Neon saying "Hi".
The Lucerne reminds me of the Solara from the rear.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd actually pick the Buick out of the three, too.
And I'd go get an Avalon, which is way better looking than either of those, but the way Hyundai is coming up in quality - I think they're about equal to each other - perhaps the Hyundai edges the Buick out a little even.
The Lucerne's styling is an improvement over the LeSabre's. But I do not like the grill in front, nor the tail-lights much either. The Reatta's tail lights were cool. The last Park Avenue's styling was better I think. In defense of Buick though, they were planning on another Swiss city (Lusanne?) for a RWD sedan that was to have been a Roadmaster class car, so the Lucerne's styling was probably underdone to make the Lusanne's look better.
-Loren
-Loren
I come up behind Camrys from that era and I think why did they change. They have such a pleasant look. The cars do not look overdone like a 58 Oldsmobile.
GM's new Buicks seem to emulate the Japanese. Right on. That's what people wanted.
>PT Cruiser
I saw a PT at Bob Evans at lunch. It had chrome portholes (who says Buicks don't have an impact on styling) and chrome on the sides and chrome on the rear bumper and a divided and covered rear window that had two tear drop shapes side by side. 38 Ford look. All it needed was a spare tire in chrome case on the rear bumper.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Now, who would want GM? No-one, that's who. Investors know that, which is why the value of the stock barely dipped this week when GM announced yet another "oopsy" which resulted in an under-reporting of its losses last year, which are now $2 billion higher than they were before.
They know that GM's future probably lies in bankruptcy, and that the future value of the stock can't be much more affected by the day-to-day negative turns of events that seem to plague GM. If the UAW strikes against GM because of Delphi, the BK will come that much quicker. If it doesn't, it will only be because Delphi is going to cost GM even more money than it has already earmarked for that fiasco. Which is equally bad news, and will hasten the trend towards the bankruptcy court.
The problems at GM are so systemic it is really hard to lay blame at any one party's door, as tempting as it is to blame the UAW's pig-headed senior management who just can't seem to see that their workers make wage and benefit packages that no comparable worker anywhere in the world (outside the car industry, in the U.S.) has had for years, maybe decades. Everyone is to blame, and the only way to fix the culture of market lethargy and waste at the General is in the courts.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I can name many outside of car industry. Conoco Phillips operators makes around $28 an hour and have a 2 for 1 401K plus stock incentives etc. Railroad conductors on avg. make over $70,000, Valero Gas Company workers make $28.00 Steel industry workers make more than GM autoworkers. UAW Johnson Control employees are around $22-23 an hour. General Electric manufactoring employees are well into the $20's per hour. UAW Lear plants are in the mid $20's. Country Fresh Dairy workers $20's. I could go on if you want me to ? :P
Rocky
are # 1 enemy.
Rocky
Look at car manufacturing elsewhere. The economy is global these days, and has been for a quarter century now, despite the inability of certain entrenched industries in the U.S. (you mentioned another - the steel industry) to recognize that.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
With GM doing various retros - SSR, HHR, Camaro soon - wonder if anyone there is looking at 58 Olds 98 or 58 Buick Roadmaster to do a retro or borrow some styling cues. Know that these were pretty ugly, but look at how Europeans are embracing "ugly" screwing up design of some of their cars such as Audis and A8, current Passat, Golf, BMW 2-door fastback coupe, Mercedes S sedan fender bulges, etc.
Buick had a sharp show/concept car full size convertible a few years ago that looked like an early 40's vintage GM. It was in dark maroon or burgundy. Of course problem would be a very limited amount of people would buy because of practicality.
Had not been to a particular area of a suburb in my metro area in couple years. There used to be a long-time Olds dealer with big showroom and big used car lot on a road. Yesterday saw it was torn down and replaced with upscale houses. Wonder if certain present GM dealers may have more value in going out of business, tearing down buildings and putting up upscale houses or similar.
Even if he could afford all the outstanding stock at the current market price, it ain't for sale. The only way that you can buy a company is to get the stockholders to agree. If no one owns 51% then you have to get that many separate owners willing to sell. I for one would not sell my shares at the current market price. The dividend is too good to sell the stock. Kerkorian wanted to buy controlling interest and only got up to 8%. He has since sold off some. No, Toyota or Honda could not afford to buy GM. Look at the assets value not the phony market cap. The parts are worth way more than the whole.
It was a 4-seat convertible, so it might have actually had some practicality to it. It was a close-coupled design though, with a retractable steel roof, which no doubt would eat into trunk space. And I'm sure the back seat was pretty tight. Probably much better than your typical BMW, Benz, Audi, Volvo, Jag, or SC430 that has a leather-clad package shelf back there posing as a back seat. And maybe no worse than a Sebring or Solara. But IMO, the last mass-produced convertible with a useable back seat was the '76 Eldorado.
Although maybe those '82-85 Rivs and '84-85 Eldos weren't TOO bad. I know the back seat was narrow in them, but maybe legroom was still decent?
Holden Efijy:
Holden Efijy:
I would take Efijy over Blackhawk. Front grille a little busy. How would it look with a little taming so as to be drivable on ordinary roads? Would GM have resources to build using parts bins and is there any kind of decent market. Would Excalade guys buy this instead?
Efigy would be a good poster for garage wall.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That is conventional wisdom but not necessarily supported by the data. Check slalom tests on Edmunds for 3 cars about same weight, HP. Mustang, 3 series and TL. Mustang has most HP but is slower. TL and 3 series about same in measured test and about 4 MPH higher than Mustang. Maybe what many folks talk about in handling is their subjective feel when comparing FWD to RWD, not actual measured.
Read Edmunds text on FWD Civic SI and TL on handling. Both get high marks in subjective feel. In Civic test, it is mentioned that Civic came within a hair of the Chevy Corvette slalom time of 68 MPH. Civic has about one-half of Corvette HP. One thing though, the Corvette probably has better styling than the Civic.
GM's problem is this is like making an NSX or LF-A: it's the kind of car you build when you have a fat wad of cash and want to show off your design and engineering prowess. It's NOT the kind of car you build when you're dropping $5 million per minute.
Actually meant all availabilities of GM including platforms. Just like latest Hummer is actually platform of mediocre Chevy pickup truck. And, this Hummer is doing OK sales wise for those folks that like its style and want to be seen in one or want to park it in their driveway. Could be similar types of folks interested in concept of Holden. So, maybe they could use GTO base from Australia for retro Holden style for sale in US.
GM's problem is this is like making an NSX or LF-A
That would be a mistake. GM already has a world class sports car in Corvette. That Holden concept would be more about "Show" than "GO" just like the baby Hummer. Just reuse GTO underpinnings as you suggest.
Any motorsport?
Actually, RWD was inferior to FWD on world class rallyes in the past until AWD was available.
The reason is simple..Their buyers are in nursing homes, and the children saw their parents taking the car into the shop all the time. The parents are demographically very predictable, the children's demographics are not. Younger generations don't smoke, and are better educated, and do market research. GM is a flop, that refuses to buy an import car, tear it apart, and copy it to perfection. Union suppliers cost too much, and the pieces aren't fitting well, or don't work well, or tragically, both. For 25 years, the imports have gained market share, and GM & Ford have targeted the same aging guy, a non-college educated smoker. Look in the window of who's driving a GM car, I can practically guarantee you they smoke, don't use the internet nearly as much as the import buyer, and their stubborn brand loyalty is not shared by their children, which is the death noll for the big domestic pair. Interestingly, a domestic that went from bankruptcy to having a pulse again is Dodge/Chrysler, which threw out some good shapes in recent years, that have caught on, and they bucked the economy car trend by making bold muscle cars (Viper, Charger, 300 series)and trucks(hemi)and they found a niche, at least temporarily.
Ugh. That thing should be burned in Efijy.
The people I see driving Saturns and Cobalts certainly aren't in nursing homes!
>refuses to buy an import car
Do you really believe that trash? I saw the compressors from foreign brands spread out for study years ago. They check for patent infringement as well as to learn how others are doing things, not only compressors but whole autos. Right 62vetteefp?
>Union suppliers cost too much, and the pieces aren't fitting well, or don't work well, or tragically, both.
So you're saying that parts for Toyo and other brands don't fit well and are too expensive. The same suppliers for GM also are supplying others! The area where I live proves it. Honda to the north, GM in the middle, Toyota to the south, some company over by Lafayette.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not sure about patent infringement but I am sure if one supplier sees a patent infringed they would do something about it.
Did a tear down of a Camry and it is amazing how similar the suspension parts are to the W cars (Impala, LaCrosse, etc.) In fact most parts are similar.
The younger people I see smoke to the extent that the immediate area surrounding them resembles Pittsburgh in 1957. They may have better educational opportunities, but some have no common sense and can't add a column of numbers. Do they really do market research or simply follow trends set in motion by companies such as Nike, Gap, and Scion because said companies tell them their products are "cool?"
When I was a younger person, I saw how ultra-reliable my grandfather's full-sized Chevrolets were and it reinforced my decision to choose GM vehicles. My own personal experience with Cadillacs and Buicks has reinforced my decision to stick with them. I'm also have a long, long way to go before I end up in a retirement home.
The one building Subaru's, and soon Toyota Camry's as well under contract.
****
Then the bean-counters and management get in the mix and it dies.
We get a car that LOOKS like an import, but at 3/4 the cost - because they honestly think we are daft enough to not notice anything other than the interior and body panels/exterior.
It would be like taking an old 1970s Volvo(frame-on chassis) and copying it - then dropping the shell on a Ford Pinto chassis.
Oh - wait - Ford tried something like that, and so did GM. With miserable results. Just like they currenty are doing. Worst has to be the Ford copy of the Mercedes 450SEL - which one is worth $250 and which is worth $25,000 today? Lol.
Anyone know when they will book these charges?
Back then, I went to a private school where you had to pay extra to ride the bus, so a lot of us kids just had parents, grandparents, or carpools to pick us up. Normally my Granddad on my Mom's side would pick me up, in his '76 GMC crew cab. But one day, my grandparents on my Dad's side picked me up, in the Granada. I remember one of my buddies looking at the cars lined up at the curb and asking me which one was my granddad. When I pointed to him, my friend's eyes got wide and he exclaimed "Wow, is your Granddad RICH!! That's the NICEST CAR OUT THERE!"
Hey, it what can I say? It was the early eighties, and we didn't know any better. We were easily fooled. How else can you explain the success of the Granada in its better years? :shades:
Also, would someone REALLY pay $25K for a late 70's/early 80's Benz? Here's one old Granada comparison ad. The Benz they're comparing it to is that awkward, goofy looking 450SC hardtop. I couldn't see someone blowing $25K on one of those today. I don't think they're even very popular. Maybe $10K for a really nice one? In contrast, I could actually see someone paying $3-4K for a really, really nice Granada that they were nostalgic for. Yeah, most of the ragged out ones ARE only worth about $250, but a ragged-out Benz from that era's not worth much more.
And yep, that old SLC cost that much back then. My 1981 Consumer Guide has a 300CD (smaller diesel coupe) at 27K, and a 380SEL at 45K! You're right too, today a really prime example of a SLC might be worth 10K-ish, and they go down fast as condition declines. They don't have much of a following, weird looks and all.
Still, it's exactly GM's problem. We get copies of the things they should be making themselves. We want fresh, new, better, and lots more power, which is where imports stink, honestly. Try finding a V8 in a Toyota or Mitsubishi car. We could so whomp on them it's not funny.
Instead we get more jellybeans and cost-cutting. The Cobalt is a disaster side-by-side with a 2006 Civic.
-Loren
The Mustang GT should be a better score for the slalom than the V6, if that was what they tested. With its weight and solid axle, I doubt if it will ever be on top of the list of those recorded for slalom tests, but no one really will care. It does a better job of it these days, and handling on the road is much improved. There are just so many benefits to RWD over FWD, but I will agree on the points people bring up on FWD as well. Subaru gives ya both! The AWD is pretty cool, though Subaru is not the most stylin' car available. It is an interesting piece of engineering though.
-Loren
Rocky