General Motors discussions

khmerkenboy

I don't know where that previous blogger been in the last couple of years. There was an article that GM strip the competition's cars and anaylzed every part and pressure their suppliers to get a better deal. And BYO, I'm 25 years and smoke a pack a day. Lately, am starting to see more generation x and y smoking those generic cigerettes, 555, Dunhill, Route 66, etc. But for me, I still prefer the conventional Marlboros, but the ones that were made in China, the US ones are too expensive.

rockylee

I can't believe some are saying Kia's and Hyundai's are better cars than GM's, Toyota's, Honda's (all brands)

The Azera for one can't even hold hold the Lucerne/LaCrosses Jockey Strap. It would be like comparing Hideki Matsui to Tyrus Raymond Cobb-
Quote:
"Al, I'm The Greatest Baseball Player of All Time" ....."Nobody else comes close to second" End Quote:

Is that not true anymore ? :P In my opinion he still is the greatest ball player of all time, if not athlete, just like GM is still the greatest car company (overall) in the world. They are still #1. :P Both didn't have to use steroids either to be the greatest.

Fact:

Ty Cobb, was one of the founding funding fathers of General Motors if some of you didn't know that. Ty Cobb, retired a very wealthy man, because of his ownership of General Motors, and Coca Cola, stocks. :shades:

Rocky

rockylee

Old Tymer employees if you haven't read or heard get to flow back to GM. My pops is looking forward to that rumor June 1st date so he can retire.

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109732

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.leftlanenews.com/category/buick/

rockylee

He can't afford to buy GM all by himself. It would Take $250 Billion like you said to buy GM. Not even Bill Gates himself could afford to buy all of GM.

Rocky

62vetteefp

Sure wish that Enclave was available in June!!! Had to order an Envoy XL. The last one coming off the line most likely in OK.

62vetteefp

Love that site Rocky! Nothing new on the Super though.

nippononly

are getting serious with prospective buyers of GMAC, which sale will substantially reduce the value of the remainder of GM Corp., GM will soon be within the reach of ordinary buyers...

;-)

sls002

Yes, nothing new: the statement is "in a few years" -> could be a new platform by then, perhaps RWD.

62vetteefp

No, the LaCrosse Super is soon to be here based on the current car. It is an uplevel trim model and not some Velite.

robertsmx

GM will soon be within the reach of ordinary buyers...

I will look forward to it. :P

sls002

Yes, a LaCrosse Super show car will be introduced to the press and taken on some sort of tour. When or if a production model will come to be is "years in the future". Read this website:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109673

torque_r

I would assume that it will come as a 2008 model, just in time for a face-lift, taking cues from the Velite. If not, then wait until 2010 or 2012 for the new LaCrosse

sls002

Obviously they are going to introduce some customized LaCrosse to the press and take the car on a tour to get the public's reaction. So, based on the reaction, they could put a Super into production sooner, on the current platform, or later, on the next generation platform, whatever that platform may be.

So, if the LaCrosse Super goes into production sooner, then it most likely will get the 5.3 liter V8 that the Impala and Grand Prix have. They could easily do this during the 2007 model year, but if there are extensive changes to the body styling that will require some time to get into production.

m1miata

Well the warranty is certainly better with Hyundai. Perhaps GM warranty should now reflect their new found reliability :P

The Azera comes too soon to the American market. Must say they are feeling confident, so soon after nearly being knocked out of the market with crappy cars, they turned a company around and are now noted for having good quality. It may be true that the cars are great, but let's give it another few years to really tell, as the good scores have been on late. The past was not so good, as we all know. My guess is that the new Azera hits some rough sailing, and in an effort to sell more, has an offer of $3K or more off sticker. The Camry, other than the less than beautiful nose on her, may be the new big winner. Seems like the Camry or Avalon are better choices, though the Azera has its points too I suppose. Long warranty. Wonder how Accord and Maxima are selling now? Mazda6 and Fusion are good cars, but will they be lost amongst all the rest in class? Dang, almost forgot about GM efforts. Add those, and Azera has too much competition in class. Actually, GM has a tougher road ahead, if they stay FWD, as cars like the Lucerne and LaCrosse don't seem to me to be better choices than say a Camry V6. Where is the HP and resale value in GM cars in this class? Look at the interior shoulder room, hip room and such and you will see very little in room improvement going with the more expensive Lucerne over say a Camry. The HP of Lucerne is considerably less with the old 3.8V6. When you add the V8 you get a few more ponies than the Camry and a heck of a larger price tag. Add the resales blow, and you have one sad owner down the road, IMHO.
-Loren

lweiss

GM seems to have abandoned the East Coast and West Coast markets, or so it seems from the suburbs of Washington, DC., where I live. Fact is, this area is not into pickup trucks or big SUV's (heavy traffic, high gasoline prices) and this area has developed an affinity for foreign made/owned products (not just vehicles but wine, beer, food, furniture, etc)- and that may be a result of the incredible diversity that we have here- people from all over the world. But I put the same situation with New York City, Miami, Boston, San Francisco, Los Angeles- and it doesn't seem like GM is interested in us anymore. For sedans (still a big deal here- lots of Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Hyundai/Acura/Lexus/Mazda/Kia) GM offers the Impala/G6/LaCrosse alternatives- too big and not that great on city mileage- but also not that exciting. It seems that GM thumbed its nose at the coastal cities and marketed to their heartland constituancies of the Midwest, South, and Mountain states- too bad, it could have been their downfall.

torque_r

A lot of people would tell you they prefer the torque of a V8 even if horsepower is lower, forgetting that the extra torque will only overcome the extra weight caused by the bigger engine and beefed up transmission. The numbers prove that. Both the Avalon and Azera are faster than the heavy-nosed V8 Lucerne.

sls002

For the most part the Lucerne vs Camry interior space is similar: BUT, the hip room in the Lucerne is 2 inches more than the Camry which may be significant? and the legroom in the rear seat of the Lucerne is 3 inches more than the Camry.

One has to actually seriously look at both before jumping to conclusions.

The Camry is about 500 lbs lighter weight than the Lucerne and with a 5 or 6 speed automatic, will have better performance with the V6 than the Lucerne with even the V8. However, does one really need to accelerate from a standstill to 60 MPH in 6 seconds?

The extra weight in the Lucerne should result in a more vault like body stucture than the light weight Camry has. Again one will have to drive both over a rough road to see.

jae5

I think you make some good points Loren. Particularly that Hyundai recognized their quality was crappy and they decided to do something about it. They basically took a similar approach to Toyota & Honda; continuous improvement, building the brands up slowly on the quality front, staying under the radar. Then one day, people are talking about them in a favorable manner and they have become a real competitor and threat to the market stables. Add the very good warranty, which helped them get back into the game, and you can have a winner.

And it didn't take them umpteen years to get off their duff and do something.

andre1969

both the Lucerne and the '07 Camry, and the Lucerne feels a LOT bigger to me. I think it's because the Camry gets more of its interior volume from height, whereas in the Lucerne it's more in stretch-out room. Shoulder room, legroom, etc.

Also, I find it odd that the Hyundai Sonata is classed as a full-sized car all of a sudden! I sat in one of those too, and the measurements are actually very deceiving. The rear wheel wells cut sharply into the back seat area, effectively limiting this car to a 4-seater. But that's not something that would show up in measurements, because it doesn't affect legroom, shoulder room, or headroom.

nippononly

you and me should get together and buy GM later this year - think about it and get back to me, OK? :-P

dpat

The big3 walked away from the small car market in the 80s. That's what sells in large cities with long commutes and narrow parking spaces. I live in the DC suburbs as well, and you don't see many large vehicles. There's also a lot of money in this area. There's a huge market here for small upscale cars, but Detroit has absolutely nothing to offer to compete with the BMW 3 series or Audi A4. This would sell great in the DC area, but apparently GM thinks well built, upscale small cars are only for Europe. They need to hire some management that haven't spent all of their lives in the land of SUVs and who realize not everybody's dream vehicle is an Escalade.

m1miata

Ah yes, the new BLS. Well unfortunately that deal fell through during the board meeting. When asked if they wanted a BLS, they thought the Euro division said BLT, and said no thanks, they already ate lunch today.
-Loren

chrisducati

I bet Suzuki is glad to be rid of GM, it was like having your mother in law live with you. I'm sure the 3% is to keep the Daewoo products in the pipeline and the new XL7 in the Canadian plant for Suzuki. Suzuki should have teamed up with another Japanese company instead of GM. The fact that they them selves bought the shares back shows they are confident about their company. I have always been a fan of their products. I see them for what they are. Cheap dependable transportation. I think the '05-06 interiors of the Aerio and the new GV are outstanding. They make the Daewoo products look like what they are, cheap. The Daewoo models get your attention on the nice grain of the dash top and hope you don't look down at the 1980 style knobs and door panels out of a 1985 Renault.

ubbermotor

Ty Cobb, was one of the founding funding fathers of General Motors if some of you didn't know that. Ty Cobb, retired a very wealthy man, because of his ownership of General Motors, and Coca Cola, stocks.

Early investor yes, but "founding father"? If you have any information linking him to the likes of William Durant, Henry Leland, Charles Nash or Walter Chrysler, I'd like to see it.

rockylee

He was one of the "funding fathers" back when GM was relatively small. He wasn't a creator, but more of a $$$$ backer like he was in Coke.

rockylee

I as a General Motors fan, son, and relative of many employees at GM, but want
GM to get off their butts and build this 27 year old his dream car. I'm
sick of waiting. Seriously !!!!! My dream car is the 400-450 horsepower 3.6
Twin Turbo Buick Velite Roadster. I'm really seriously upset at both GM
and Buick management. The Velite Roadster is the most beautfiful car in
the world, and you guys had the guts to canceled this car for production,
while letting cars like the Catera, Aztek, and SSR see production. How
could you ? The Enclave and the rumor LaCrosse Super have Velite Styling,
but it's no subsitute for the real original. Do you guys honestly question
the market for such a beautiful car. It's a very competitive Lexus SC 430
convertible for $20-25 thousand dollars less. With the concepts engine,
it would be more powerful than the Lexus SC. The interior is so
contemporary and modern at the same time. You'd be crazy as a customer
not to buy one over the SC or Volvo C-70. The C-70 would fall flat on it's
face, but it has no competition so it's a success.

GM, has made some good and bad cars over the years, and it seems like the
bad ones are more likely to see production, than the good ones. WHY ?????

I suppose I should start questioning my loyalty to GM. Certain things GM
does angers customers. GM needs to hold there dealerships accountable for
the treatment of it's customers both in sales and service. I know people
that are scared to go into a GM dealership for this very reason and stray
away because of this unregulated area of the buisness. This is one area
where GM could improve sales a great deal without having to sacrifice
large sums of money.

These are my Top 5 reccomendations for General Motors.

#1 GM Dealership Customer Service.
No more crooked Car Salesmen and there gimmicks. These tatics no longer
work. Also the buy a Tahoe and get a Cavalier deal seen at the local
dealerships is absolutely stupid and customers don't fall for these scams.

#2 Factory Warranty's. GM could get away with more expensive vehicles if
it had Korean Car (Kia/Hyundai) type Warranty's and Lexus type Customer
Service scores. Seriously. Commission and dealer profits would include
customer service scores. Acura dealerships get paid this way.

#3 (So Called Free Maintence) Yes a gimmick, but it works for BMW very
well !!!!!

#4 Benchmark products like the Buick Velite Roadster. GM needs high volume
cars to go along with image cars such as Velite. The Pontiac Grand Prix
for instance wouldn't be hammered in the media, car forums, etc if it was
as good as let's say a Acura TL. GM doesn't need to build a Toyota Camry,
but offer the customer 75% of the t car in that segment and mold the other
25% to a unique flavor, uniquely GM.

#5 Technology, Quality, Fit and Finish. GM needs to be the leader in
Technology i.e Voice Recognition Systems, DVD 5.1 or 7.1 Stereo Equipment,
and other latest Gadetology. The automobiles need to be made of the finest
materials that exceed, not just meet the Asians and Germans. The
Automobiles need to perform and exceed BMW, Acura, Lexus, in the terms of
handling, performance, and efficiency, while maintaining American levels
of Muscle.

I'm just being a loyal critic. I know GM can power us and be the leader in
all these area's. GM has taken the lead on being the first with Ethanol
and Bio-Diesel. The new 2 stage Hybrid looks to be a nice piece of
Technology. GM needs to offer a real All-Wheel Drive System aka like
Acura's Super Handling All-Wheel Drive, Build Rear Wheel Drive Cars, and
tkae the initiative on Engine Technology. I believe GM can do these
things, but I question Committment. I believed Rick Wagoner when he said
we will be #1 for the next 80 years still. I'm having my doubts though.

I hope my critical e-mail get's forwarded to not just buick management,
but pushed into the hands of the decision makers. GM is at a point in time
where it's going to lead or follow. If GM decides to follow they will end
up Bankrupt. They also need to help elect a president that wants to
protect american buisness interests, instead of allowing foreign
competition to come in and get all the breaks from our government. It's
unfair that Hyundai or Kia can come over the the U.S. and build a modern,
"state of the art" assembly
plant Tax free for "X" number of years. They might provide a small number
of jobs to us citizens, but the money still goes back to the homeland. The
same goes for the Japanese. It's got to stop.

Well that's my 2 cents....

Thanks,

Rocky
Dumas, Texas

P.S. Build the Buick Velite Roadster so Tiger has a great car to go along
with his "bigger than life" image.

I got a good reply, and they promised to forward it to all the divisions. My wife erased the reply :mad:

m1miata

Seems like baseball, apple pie, and chevy, just ain't what they use to be. Just an observation.

Something is wrong with the Heartbeat of America. An American Revolution, it is not. The American Evolution of Chevy and GM has not been so smooth a ride, with the road looking more perilous than ever. Time for them to concentrate on making three to four cars which have appeal to customers based on elements other than simple dollar value ( though it is always an element in consideration to buy ), perhaps saving Chevy. If Pontiac and Buick have to be sacrificed, so be it. If the cars in those two lines have some appeal, perhaps those cars should have been a GM, or a GM Chevy labeled car instead.

I take it this may never happen, unless they claim bankruptcy, then start over as a clean slate. Cadillac and Chevy (or simply GM) cars and GMC trucks is all which is needed. Have concentrated efforts to build moderately priced Chevy cars in FWD and RWD, and keep Cadillac as the top of the line. Cheap Chevy or Buicks could be something to sell in China. In the USA, inexpensive car market is best served by Japan and Korean makes. Make the base Chevy the Nova in a RWD car starting at $20K with a quality interior, modern six cylinder engine and an SS model in the 300HP range, under 3,400#.

When I was young, I thought most of the GM cars were pretty cool. Now they are mostly cold, or warmed over cars which only sell at deep discounts. Even the winning designs don't seem to cause much excitement. Take the Solstice, which is in a convertible model only, rarely seen on the lots, not really getting a lot of attention overall. Look at the launch of the Mustang in 1964. Ah, the Mustang Sally song and all the frenzy. And the Corvette has had its share of recordings done. Maybe they will build more Solstice Coupes, when before launch date, and have some blitz advertising. Who knows, it could have been another Z car, or Camaro. As it is currently, GM just lets a few car trickle in.

Perhaps, a fourth division of GM could be the performance one. Sell performance parts, with dealerships with some excitement and savvy in selling to younger buyers. This could be the new Saturn. Imports + Performance cars by GM.

Just a thought,
Loren

imidazol97

Rocky
The trash or deleted folder for your email client should have the deleted file it in. I'd love to read the reply!

rockylee

She emptied it also :mad: :sick:

Rocky

m1miata

The Hyundai plant in USA is an economic net gain for the local economy in the area it is placed. I am sure the government calculated the net-net to having a plant placed in their back yard. Be it foreign or domestic, the plant hires workers, which in turn pay taxes and buy products within that area of the country. GM has gotten breaks as well, such as placing of plants in Canada. I am sure they have lots of agreements with local governments within the US or A. This a reason for the economic woes of GM.

Over the last three decades, the nuts and bolts have been coming lose at GM. Product dissatisfaction and how handled in the way of backing those products is likely a good part of the equation. Tick off enough people over time, and the multiplying effect is devastating. And blaming the car reviewers for not favoring their products in say a magazine or in a newspaper, comes off as childish behavior. I think most, though not all, liked the Body by Fisher cars of say the 60's or older models, and long for that quality once again. GM has labor issues and tons or weight over their heads, so I realize it is not an easy task to turn this huge ship around. Best of luck to them, and full speed ahead!

-Loren

m1miata

Unless you told GM that this is an open letter, as in to be placed on the Net, I would just let it be. The reply was meant to be to you personally, I think. Was it for all to see?

-Loren

nvbanker

Funny - I was in my very early Twenties when the Granada came out - and I thought Mercedes copied the Granada... :P

Seriously - the "Precision Car Line" that Ford tried with the Granada/Monarch made them lots of money for a while. I believe the car sat on the Maverick platform, and in many cases, used the same power trains. The 200cid six was in there, and a 302cid V-8 was an option. Not sure, but there were probably 2 other engine options. They sold a zillion Granadas from 75 to 80. Then, the Maverick platform was retired, I think, and the 81 Granada came out as a Fairmont upgrade on the Fox platform. Just wasn't the same, and it was replaced by the small LTD in 83.

Today we laugh at the Granada, but I don't know why. It was as good as any other Ford made at the time, it was made of the same parts! The interiors were awesome though. Especially the Ghia interior package, which gave you tons of luxury in a Ford. Very thick seats, vinyl trim everywhere, tufted on the doors. Thick, almost shag carpeting. Personally, I loved them. Hardly ever see one around these days - they were not the classic I would think they'd be. But they are not a laughable failure, as some tend to make them out to be now. Saw a Buick Reatta at the auction yesterday - speaking of a failure.

m1miata

Well a Reatta certainly looks a lot better than the tin can Granada. I test drove a used Reatta and found it to be about as exciting as the Buick and Olds sedans, no more - no less. It does look sporty though. Well to me it does....

If ya want a Granada, here she be..
http://www.classiccarmall.com/carsfs/sale3061.htm
Actually not a bad looking car. Sort of that American Motors look to it. The worst for tin cans must be the Fairmont, but I still see them running around, so the engine and tranny must keep on chugging away. Would not want to be hit by a Mercedes in one of them pretender cars -- oh, ouch - major hurt indeed!
-Loren

imidazol97

>you told GM that this is an open letter

I didn't receive the letter.

kruntal

"Make cars that people want to buy more than the Accords, Civics, Camrys & Corollas !!!"

1. Overall reliability is probably there.
2. Exterior styling has improved, but still needs catching up.
3. Interior styling & quality has improved, but boy does it need catching up.
4. Forget the powertrain. Just buy the Honda/Toyota engines - can't catch-up to them on sophistication, performance, efficiency, reliability & cost of manufacturing without sinking some serious $ - a scarce commodity for GM & Ford these days
5. It will take about a decade to reverse public perception, the ultimate killer. Today's game for them was lost over last 20 years. They are playing a game that pays back 10 years from now. Tough.

aldw

If you think that the GM HF V6s or new Ford Duratec V6 engines are inferior to Honda or Toyota engines, you must be smoking something...

chuck1959

I hope she deleted it by accident.

sls002

I owned a 91 Reatta. It was a nice little car, but the interior was not all that great, to much plastic. It did not sell well, the 91 production was the last year, and the factory was shut down for several months while they tried to get enough orders in hand to begin production.

The Allante was a very similar car, but made in a much more expensive way by shipping it to and from Italy. The Allante was also a failure. The Edsel was a failure too....

m1miata

The car was not a failure. Selling the car to America evidently was a failure. Only thing I can see wrong is the limited need for something like a Buick LeSabre ride in a two seater, rather than true sports car dynamics. I thought it was good in looks and not bad overall. So was the Allante though it may have had some quirks. And importing bodies by way of 747 air freight from Italy is a bit much. The Edsel was plain ugly - period.

Perhaps we shall see another FWD baby lux car, the BTS in the States one fine day. Would have to sell under $27K though as not to bump up too close to CTS. I take it the Opel/Saturn sedan is suppose to be upscale?

Loren

sls002

The Reatta ride and handling were not LeSabre like. With a short wheelbase, the Reatta handled much better than the Riviera. It did not ride a firm as the Corvette, (I owned an 86), but was harder riding than the Riviera.

62vetteefp

If they do import the BLS on the new Epsilon II architecture GM would probably make the 3.6 standard on the CTS and it's price would be north of $32K. I would see the BLS above $29K. Big question is whether it will have AWD. If it does I would see the CTS also getting AWD.

m1miata

BLS for $29K? Won't fly. Too many other FWD great cars in that range. Oh well. So why can't they supply the CTS with a better base engine, and telescopic steering column? The cost-once again the cost of doing business for GM rears is ugly head. So sad. The CTS project is not bad. New interior and other improvements mentioned, and selling at $30K it may be a class leader, at a bargain price. Or at least a fair price. For $32K to $35K, I would expect more HP or a V8 engine.
-Loren

62vetteefp

What small cars in the Cadillac market go for less than $29K? I cannot think of one except the Acura TSX. IS starts at $31k. TSX starts at $28K. 3 series starts at $31K. The CTS is underpriced for its size. The next one should move up in class/performance and everything else. V8 is coming in the V series. 3.6L will have close to 280hp if not more. And yes it will probably have that so important tele wheel.

gogogodzilla

Except the Cadillac no longer has the cache of being a 'premium' car. It's been infected with the rot that GM brings.

Not to mention that Acura has the RSX - a $20-22,000 car.

And Audi has the A3 - a $24,000~ vehicle.

So if Cadillac wants to take marketshare away from the other premium brands... they need to price any entry Cadillac below that of other 'premium' entry-level vehicles.

A Cadillac B-series would need to be priced about $22,000 to even get me consider it. And even then... the Audi is a mighty fine draw...

aldw

Not necessary, the next CTS will rectify the problems of the current one (telescoping steering wheel and all) and be worth every penny.

m1miata

Well the BMW3 at $31K, with an inline 6, is a class above the CTS. I would say the CTS competes more with the Chrysler 300, which has a Hemi V8 in the CTS price range. For luxury in a V6 car, the Avalon comes to mind starting around $29K, with an excellent V6. And then there is the Camry, with the 268 HP V6, which is starting at $23K, and are very quiet and luxurious cars. Only problem in comparing the two is the FWD as compared to RWD. Other than that, I would say the build quality which lasts for more than a decade, is likely to be found in many Japan makes of less classification than CTS, yet only due to cost comparisons.

Now back to RWD, and BMW3. If they are near the price of the CTS, have a better engine, free service for four years, richer interior, I would say they are worth a thousand to three thousand over the CTS. The BMW3 is loaded with features. I think you will find the interior on a Mazda3 to be richer and better for use than the CTS. The CTS is a good start, but at the present not worth the money. Maybe a used one, if the price falls off in another year or two, it will be a value. If you are ever looking for one with a stick shift on the lot, forget it - none to be found.
-Loren

rockylee

She deleted it by accident. We get quite a bit of junk mail, and it happens. She assumed it was a advertisement. :confuse:

I've done it by accident to her a few times. I told her from now on to be more careful, the good thing is I atleast got to read it before she deleted it.

Rocky

62vetteefp

The RSX is a non player. Even at $22k they are only selling 21,000 / year. The A3 is only selling about 700 units per month so it is also a non player. The CTS at an ATP of about $34K is selling 61,000 units per year with a bad interior.

That being said perhaps there is not much market for an under $30k car in that size market?

And as said earlier Cadillac sells the most premium vehicles out there, outselling Lexus, BMW and Mercedes even w/o the SUV.