General Motors discussions

62vetteefp

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060327/SUB/60324062/1003&re- fsect=
Trim health care A
eliminate jobs A
Cut capacity B-
Raise Sales D+ but doing well so far this year
Slash Incentives B
Avoid Delphi strike B
Launch SUV's smoothly Incomplete but looking good
Boost transaction price B+

m1miata

Ah yes, you need to add a folder to save email to. Some time back, there was an email app. called Calypso, which had a lock you could put on emails you would not want to accidently delete.
-Loren

m1miata

And as said earlier Cadillac sells the most premium vehicles out there, outselling Lexus, BMW and Mercedes even w/o the SUV.
-end quote--

Interesting. I wonder why. I know they have more dealerships. Is this true for California sales? I see some CTS cars on the road, and perhaps some STS too, but they look like a CTS from a distance, so who knows what car I am viewing. Still see those monster Escalades, with all the bling-bling. Guess those are the Cadillac cowboys, richer soccer moms and rappers cars - whatever Those that like SUVs with in your face status. It means something to those people and if it makes them happy - this is good. To each his own.
-Loren

m1miata

So, does this mean bankruptcy is not in the cards for this year? Next year?

Maybe they hang on long enough to see National Health Care Plan for USA. ..... or maybe not.

So transaction prices are up on GM cars. This too is interesting. People are interesting.

My guess is that the wheels come off the US economy this year. If Wagoner is as good as they say, perhaps his next effort will be in Washington D.C. where we desperately need some leadership. Just an observation.

Now back on subject. No GM style is pretty much lacking, if its task is to save the company. It would take some pretty cool style to do this tack, all on its own.
-Loren

fintail

DTS fleet sales can't hurt, seeing as no other premium maker does this...

Of course, the "premium" of such cars is debated by some.

62vetteefp

Premium is defined by some as over $45k or so. That is STS/DTS/XLR area. CTS sales would not count.

Yes some people are different than you or me or anybody else.

tlong

Not necessary, the next CTS will rectify the problems of the current one (telescoping steering wheel and all) and be worth every penny.

It's gonna be a .....home run!!!

m1miata

One thing for certain, the price is premium. The local dealer had a nearly new Corvette which someone traded in on an XLR. Go figure :surprise: Now there is a premium price to pay for something different. BTW, the Corvette looked great!
-Loren

m1miata

The 3.6 V6 and a price below $30K? Comfortable seats?
-Loren

jae5

Delphi

grbeck

62vetteefp: And as said earlier Cadillac sells the most premium vehicles out there, outselling Lexus, BMW and Mercedes even w/o the SUV.

I seem to recall that Cadillac was using incentives and rebates to inflate the transaction prices of the previous-generation Deville/DTS...the real transaction price was close to $32,000. Maybe the new version has raised that price closer to the "real" luxury league.

And Cadillac still isn't a major competitor in the $80-100,000+ league, which is the REAL stratosphere these days.

nvbanker

I've not heard that Cadillac is outselling Lexus in the US. Is that true? What's the story?

62vetteefp

Discussion was on premium cars which would not include trucks and the CTS/ES/IS.

But overall 2006

Cadillac: 161k cars, 74K trucks (61,000 CTS)
Lexus: 151K cars, 151K trucks (68,000 ES, 16,000 IS)

kruntal

Is the HF V6 the one they put in the high end LaCrosse ? With DOHC and variable valve intake and all ?

Anyways, I just realized after I posted my original message that GM is indeed putting Honda engine in the Vue Redline. Why do you think they are doing that ?

Why aren't they putting their best engines in all cars, like Honda & Toyota do. May be that's what they should be doing, and stop making the old technology engines altogether. That may help them some in connecting with the average consumers who could care less with the nostalgic virtues of the push-rod engines of the 50's.

rockylee

It's enough to make me puke. :sick:

jae5,

I guess most corporations are only going to build high skilled components here in the U.S.

I'm really scared for my son and daughters generation, because I'm not sold on the so-called "service economy" which has been proven it won't work. If we offer the amount of green cards to foreign workers that president bush is talking about, what incentive will little Johnny have by spending $80K or better for a college degree that will be bidded for by a transplant worker. I guess this is only the tip of the iceberg, and the next generation is the titanic ship, that is supposably unsinkable. :surprise:

Rocky

imidazol97

The current demonstrations by and on the part of illegals shows what happens when illegals are given citizen services like hospital and schools in California. Then the entitlement mentality spread and now the Federal legislators have to take a stand or back down. Do you think companies are going to behave any differently than the Senate did yesterday? The corporations are going to take the easy road out and move jobs to cheaper countries-to heck with US workers; oh, but don't forget, "Workers, you all buy out products now, you hear?"

62vetteefp

General Motors Corp. said Tuesday it was laying off "a few hundred" U.S. salaried employees as part of a broader restructuring of its struggling North American automotive business.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060328/UPDATE/603280423

plekto

Works out to ~2500 jobs. 7% of 35,000. Love how they hide the truth behind double-speak, as usual.

62vetteefp

7% includes all salaried employees leaving GM this year. Includes normal retirements, people quitting, dieing and everthing else. Normal attrition is probably close to 5%? GM has cut way back on hiring (they are still hiring some).

I also read that GM is breaking up the layoffs over the year.

xrunner2

Anyways, I just realized after I posted my original message that GM is indeed putting Honda engine in the Vue Redline. Why do you think they are doing that ?

And, this type of Vue has gotten very good reviews on engine performance.

Honda is also known as an engine company and makes many types of engines beside automotive. Have a Sears power washer that is "Powered by Honda".

Would think that GM sales of particular cars in US would improve if they were powered by Honda. Think of Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Caddy (CTS) cars that had nameplate on trunks with "Powered by Honda". Of course, Honda would keep leading design engines in their own brand cars and sell last generation engines to GM. This is just like what US does in selling older gen fighter jets to other countries.

Honda could build some engine plants in states to supply GM assembly plants and contribute to US economy.

ubbermotor

The only problem with that is that many of GM's quality issues do not revolve around the powertrain. Take the now dead but long running S-10 (pick-up, SUV and van). One of the worst quality vehicles of the last 2 decades, but the 4.3 V-6 had above average reliability. How bad was the rest of the vehicle? Fortunaltly the plastic door handles would break of causing less stress on the pot medal hinges, so it took longer for the doors to fall off.

aldw

The HF V6 is the one in the CTS, SRX and STS, and can more than hold its own against Nissan's vaunted VQ series V6s, let alone any crappy Honda V6. Built in Flint Engine South and St. Catharines, Ontario, and design purely by GM.

jae5

Got my first view of a Soltice on the street yesterday. It was silver with a black top (up of course - Chicago in March is not convert weather). My thoughts:

Looks better in person than in pictures
Has somewhat of an MR-2 Spyder look to it in a behind view - mainly taillamp area
Definitely for shorter people - woman driver looked cramp but may have more room than viewed
Seemed well-propotioned - wheels not too big / small, front/rear overhangs nice, non-bulbous
Nice width to it

Saw another HHR (third, second in two days), thoughts:
Still see too much PT Cruiser/Liberty/Durango in it - derivative styling
Seems small and cramped
Proportions are a little off to me

Another G6 Coupe:
Too much Solara, particularly in the quarter-panel, taillamps, trunk areas
Noise dips way too much for my liking
Front lights a la Honda
Green-house is from Accord Coupe
Again, derivative styling

Which would I buy? Unfortunately none.

In terms of the Soltice, I'd rather have a Miata - seems to capture the soul of the two-place runabout. Has a soul, the spirit of an MG, Triumph, Morgan (but without the bad wiring, horrible reliability), a Sunbeam Tiger. There's no emotion in the Soltice, no passion. No second-glance, long stare.

HHR & G6. Nothing there I want.

Again, just my thoughts.

jae5

Rock,

I agree with little Johnny and service economy statements. The first question out of Johnny's mouth will be "Why should I go to school, get all this debt by the time I'm 21 - 22 years, old, and not be able to get a job that pays enough so that I can pay it back? And the reason I can't pay it back is a)the good paying jobs are gone and 2) I don't need a 4-year degree to say "Welcome to Wal-Mart/McDonalds/whatever, may I please help you." But that does tie into the service economy. :P

Where I used to work, they were driving for a "service-driven" organization, while still manufacturing product. Pretty much fired, sorry "laid off", the engineering group, technicians and the like; replaced them with customer / technical service personnel. This was in response to the economy shifting from manufacutring / industrial to service based. Only problem was the company no longer had the expertise to build any of the product they were to service, let alone know how to service the product r provide service to those that could in. Said company is now on the brink of going back into BK. :sick:

bumpy

The HF V6 is the one in the CTS, SRX and STS, and can more than hold its own against Nissan's vaunted VQ series V6s, let alone any crappy Honda V6.

CTS 3.6L (3564cc): 255 hp @ 6200 rpm; 252 ft-lb @ 3100 rpm

G35 3.5L (3498cc): 298 hp @ 6400 rpm; 260 ft-lb @ 4100 rpm

RL 3.5L (3479cc): 290 hp @ 6200 rpm; 256 ft-lb @ 5000 rpm

Hmmm.

sls002

The real issue is not what paper horsepower there is but what sort of performance does one get. One answer is in a Car & Driver comparison. The Infinity is quicker to 60 by 1 second and 0.6 seconds quicker in the 1/4 mile.

plekto

I find it amusing how they always talk about how fast cars are. And also how jaded they are. Basically it boils down to this:

(Scottish accent - SNL skit inspired)
"If it ain't 6 seconds... IT'S CRAP!"

Seriously - how fast do we need our cars to be?

sls002

0-60 in less than 1 second should be good enough. :P

andre1969

is that they seem to be rating engines in gross hp again, so many of those hp figures are meaningless! :shades: But, some of y'all have beat me to it!

FWIW though, isn't the RL actually somewhat slow, considering that type of hp? I want to say it's 0-60 is something like 7.1 seconds? Heck, I think an Altima with a V-6 and a stick could do it in around 6. And so could a V-8 Impala. But then, those really aren't RL competitors.

sls002

The RL in a Car & Driver comparison (different comparison) did 0-60 in 6.6 seconds (the CTS was 6.9) and the 1/4 was 15.1 (the CTS was 15.2). The RL was in a $55,000 comparison test, a bit more than the CTS costs.

m1miata

Actually any Altima seems to be a good choice in a sedan. Most HP in 4 banger or V6 than the GM cars, with some really cool style to it. If I was in the matket right at the moment, I would be test driving the Altima, Honda, Sonata, new Camry, then maybe the GM to see how they compared. Not likely to buy a GM new due to crappy resale. And questionable real life reliability. Will take more years of positive survey results before I believe this is a true turnaround at GM. Could be!
-Loren

gogogodzilla

Good grief! That slow???

How can anyone even think of 0-60 speeds in the 1 second range? The barest acceptable minimum has to be 0-60 in 0.0003452 seconds.

:shades:

nvbanker

Wow, that is the best description of an S-10 I've ever heard! For the life of me, I NEVER understood why anybody bought those rolling pieces of crap - other than the big engine they had.

sls002

How many G's would that be? :surprise:

62vetteefp

General Motors wants South Africa as its main export base for Hummer H3 vehicles, with the first vehicle expected to roll off the production line in the last quarter of 2006, it said on Tuesday.

The world's number one automaker last year awarded General Motors South Africa (GMSA), a wholly-owned subsidiary, a contract to assemble its third generation Hummer to export to markets in Europe, Africa and the Middle East.

The Hummer H3 is a smaller and more road-friendly version of the Humvee military vehicle used by the U.S. military, and GM said its production could generate about $3 billion in output from the South African operation through 2012.

turboshadow

We've been worrying about the generations to come for millenia, whether it be their music, their clothes, their attitudes, their job prospects, etc. I complain about the economy and the state of affairs in the nation about as much as anybody, but if you look back, the trend is almost always that things get better.

I think the only exception is maybe the years of the Great Depression.

Some people are going to be hurt by change, but by and large, I think things generally work out for the best.

That does NOT mean you should stop trying to better yourself and the world around you.

Back on topic, though--I have been out of the loop on Delphi for a while. Does it look like they still may declare bankruptcy?

Turboshadow

lemko

...to go into fields that can't be outsourced. I won't send for a guy from China or India to fix my toilet. Good thing I'm a genetic dead end. I'm worried about getting through my own life. Those kids don't stand a chance.

rockylee

Well Turboshadow, if the buyouts happen like they say and enough UAW workers flowback to GM, Delphi will have eliminated 1/2 of it's workforce. The goall is to cut the 36,000 U.S. workforce down to 18,000. They want to close X number of plants here in the U.S. and outsource those jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Delphi was only in the first place going to declare bankruptcy on it's North American operations. Delphi actually makes some profits on some of it's operations here in the States. The very profitable plants that require a high degree of skill will stay open is the bottom line. However the media has failed to talk about the new plants in China, where they are designing simpilar parts like fuel injectors so that the average Chinese person can learn to make the part with mininum training. Multec 2 hasn't been reproduced anywhere else in the world, because no other country can make that same injector with the quality (parts per million) as the Coopersville plant. They've tried and failed. However Multec 3 is a much cheaper and simpliar design, though not as high quality, can be manufactored in China. Like dad says eventually all of Delphi will pretty much be overseas. Lower and Middle management can see the writing on the wall. The older generation both management and employees can't wait to get out, so they don't have to be a part of the self destruction of manufactoring.

I'm scared one day a terrorist is going to plant something in a common baught foreign good and kill thousand, if not millions. :mad:

Rocky

rockylee

No lemko, we won't have the knowledge left in this country to fix anything in another 50 years. You will have to either talk to a "Tech" in India or China, and he will charge you X amount a minute to "walk you through" to fix it yourself. Replacement parts will be back ordered in China, so he will rush you out a (temporary fix) which will include a hose with a spray nozzel and a shovel. :surprise:

Rocky

lweiss

In the congested Washington, DC area where I live (traffic either second or third worst in the country), I hardly make it to 60 mph when I drive, so 0-60 has little appeal. But with these high gasoline prices (and going higher at some point), give me a well equipped 4 cylinder yet roomy car with nice features for under $30K- and that's why Toyota Corolla/Camry, Nissan Altima/Sentra, Honda Accord/Civic, Hyundai Sonata, Mazda 6/3 and others like that rule around here. GM and Ford dealerships are dropping like flies in these parts (the latest big Buick dealer just combined with Pontiac/GMC) and the foreign owned companies are taking their place. A shame in a way, but competition gives us better products.

andre1969

there is one spot where 0-60 would be useful to me. That's where I make a right turn from my street onto a divided 4-lane road with a 45 mph speed limit. I think 45 is the lower limit, though ;-)

But even here, the traffic comes and goes in packs, so you never have to wait long for a clear spot. Even if you're in a stock mid-60's VW Bug!

andre1969

Actually any Altima seems to be a good choice in a sedan.

Loren, if I were to buy a new car, the Altima actually would be one of my top picks. I'm trying to hold off as long as possible, seeing how long my Intrepid will last, but if, say, my Intrepid got totaled today, I'd say my top two picks, in no order, would be the Altima and the Charger. I only wish they offered a 5-speed automatic with the 4-cyl Altima. These days, a 4-cyl/auto Camry and Accord get soemthing like 24/34, while the Altima 4-cyl/auto is something like 23/29. But then, most of my driving is local, so that relatively big highway MPG discrepancy probably wouldn't come into play very often.

torque_r

"give me a well equipped 4 cylinder yet roomy car with nice features for under $30K- and that's why Toyota Corolla/Camry, Nissan Altima/Sentra"

These cars are popular everywhere not just where you live. This is the sad fact. When you want a thrifty car below $25K, Japanese are the best. When you want high-power mid-size car for less thn $K25, Japanese are also best.

jae5

However the media has failed to talk about the new plants in China, where they are designing simpilar parts like fuel injectors so that the average Chinese person can learn to make the part with mininum training.

That's interesting becuase we're going through the same thing here. We manufacture parts all over the world and when it comes to China, we have to rework or re-document many things so that they can have simple work instructions or perform simple tasks. Complex assembly, forget it.

Can agree with your pops, us outsiders see it too. And when Delphi does have the majority of operations overseas, I hope they invest in an Excedrin plant cause the headaches... :surprise:

jae5

Delphi article

The proposal on the table would cut production workers' pay from about $27 an hour to $22 an hour on July 3. It would fall again to $16.50 an hour in September 2007. New hires would earn $12 an hour.

Skilled workers would see their pay cut from more than $30 an hour to $28, then down to $24 an hour in September 2007.

Rock,

Any comments on this? At a first & very quick glance the pay concession doesn't seem too bad, but there's no mention of benefits and pension. I wonder why the tiered pay reduction and particularly the reduction for September '07. Doesn't this knock into the 2007 negoiations - kind of like they "know" they're going to have the current contract broken. :confuse:

62vetteefp

Few articles on how engineers are in demand in the US. Her is what a bachelors gets you.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060329/BUSINESS01/603290433

I wonder what a masters and state certification (PE) gets you?

rockylee

Well Steve Miller, has fell of his rocker thinking a progressive reduction in wages down to $16.50 an hour will be the quick fix. My aunt who only makes $14 an hour might as well work at McDonalds for $9.00 an hour since she drives 50 miles or so to work. These ridiculous wage proposals in skilled (but non journeymens) positions are certainly going to cause a strike. A fair wage proposal for new hires would be $19-20 bucks an hour with $150 a month insurance plus a good matching 401K. The older generation pre 1999' definitly won't accept $16.50 per hour from $26 or 27 bucks an hour. I could see Miller asking for $21 or 22 bucks an hour. Maybe his latest wage proposal is an attempt to meet somewhere in the middle ? However I'm sure he's going to provoke a strike with his current attitude. :confuse: You basically have to make atleast $20 bucks an hour to have enough extra to invest in a 401K and still beable to live. Michigan for example is still inexpensive compared to other states, but since I've been gone (4 yrs.) the cost for housing for example has gone up alot. :surprise: A shack will cost you $110K. I mean literally a shack. Seriously what the hell are ordinary people going to do ? Get a generation note for houses ? Like sign your great grandkids up for a promisary note on your home ? :surprise:

It's getting very crazy and Michael Savage, said he hasn't seen so many changes in his 55 years of life like he has saw in the past few years.

Rocky

rockylee

It's getting bad pal isn't it ? Engineers due to
(my opinion) foreign worker transplants, are having to compete on a unlevel playing field. :mad: What incentive is a youngster going to have in this country to go spend a butt load of money for a degree and make poverty wages ? :sick: Engineering has always been a center point of are great economy, and now they are being over run by idiots (literally) from foreign country's. I'll bet honest money on a American educated engineer and put his I.Q. up against the world. Germany might be the only other country that has engineers with the same level of intellegence and inventiveness. Why is America selling our own citizens down the drain ? It's not worth having the brightess and best minds in the private sectors anymore ? It's logic I can't understand anymore. :confuse:

Rocky

turboshadow

Engineers due to(my opinion) foreign worker transplants, are having to compete on a unlevel playing field.

As an engineer, I disagree with that.

Engineering has always been a center point of are great economy, and now they are being over run by idiots (literally) from foreign country's.

The influx of foreign engineers is not so great as the media would have you believe. The ones that I've met have been extremely intelligent in their field.

I'll bet honest money on a American educated engineer and put his I.Q. up against the world.

There are good engineers and bad engineers. I haven't really noticed that Americans are head and shoulders above anyone else.

Germany might be the only other country that has engineers with the same level of intellegence and inventiveness.

I've met Chinese, Indian, Scottish, and Korean Engineers. Almost all of them were sharp as a tack. The only difference I can really see is the differences in the higher education systems. Certain countries are extremely specific in the disciplines. For example, in this country, a mechanical engineering degree will cover a lot of territory (HVAC, strength of materials, vibration, tribology), but in the UK, you are an HVAC engineer, Vibration engineer, etc., and only work in those fields.

I've worked both for the government and the private sector, and I can say that the future has never been brighter for engineers.

62vetteefp

I agree that things are still good for a hard working engineer that has some kind of personal skills. Maybe a bit slow here in Michigan but lots of jobs elsewhere. I know I could get a job pretty easily even here in Michigan. I know my brother did and he does not have the education nor experience I have.