Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
General Motors discussions
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Neways do any of you like the GXP G6 ? :surprise:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109867
One of my grandma's friends had a Ciera with the 3.8. It was around a 1986-87 I guess. I think it had 150 hp. Now that sucker seemed pretty strong...lightweight Ciera body with a goodly amount of torque.
At one time, the 3.8 got its peak torque really low down in the rpm range. My old '82 hit its peak of 190 ft-lb around 1600 rpm IIRC. That's probably why it was such a good highway cruiser, because it cruised at close to its peak torque. Nowadays I think the 3.8 gets 225 ft-lb around 4000 rpm. But using my Dad's '03 Regal as an example, it's loafing along at around 1600 rpm at 60 mph. I don't know how much torque the 3.8 has down there these days, but that's well below its peak rpm.
If they used a 5-speed automatic tranny with the 3.8, couldn't they then get away with using a shorter axle? Like, for example, if they put in a 3.55 in place of a 3.08, then just add a 5th gear of around 0.58:1 to get the overall effective top gear ratio back down to around 2.05:1?
Or what would happen if they just took the 4-speed and gave it a taller overdrive ratio to compensate? Or would that make it jerk too much when it had to shift back down to 3rd?
Rocky
LOL!!:)
I have a 1988 Buick Park Avenue with the older 3.8 V-6 and the car is like a rocket
I'd say that is a bit of a stretch. Not to many cars from the late 80's would be considered fast these days. A late 80's Taurus SHO which was considered very fast for a fwd sedan would relatively slow when compared to an Altima/07 Camry/Accord v6.
Now I haven't driven any of the late 80's 3.8 powered GM cars, but I have driven a '92 Park Ave that certainly wasn't slow, but no rocket either.
The only 3.8 powered car I've driven that I would qualify as fast would be a buddy of mine's GP GTP.
Okay - maybe not exactly 10-12 seconds, but it'll go flying from 60-90mph like it wasn't even trying. If it weren't for the HUD display showing me my speed, I'd have gotten many tickets coming back from the airport. Yes, maximum torque/HP is about 90mph in 3rd.(don't ask me how I know this - lol)
0-60 times? Drop it into 2nd gear and leave it there until you reach 4000rpm.(about 50-60mph) The engine's crazy powerful at higher revs. My sister does this with her 1988 Park Ave and it's yeah - she's a bit crazy in it. Lol.
Sure - styling and trim and so on - it's well, that's all subjective, but the engine has plenty of power if you keep it out of overdrive until you reach your desired speed. It's a decent car. At a decent non-Lexus price. Plus, it actually fits 5 adults properly. A Camry or Accord - um - kinda not really. IIRC, it even had a bench seat option until recently, so it could fit *6* adults.
:surprise: is right. They managed to take an underwhelming car and make it *worse* in every conceivable way.
The grille is hideous, the wheater scoops on the hood are ridiculous, the spoiler is wholly incongruous with the back end of the car, the interior is miscegnated, and ultra-low-profile wheels on a nose-heavy plow machine like that are going to ride like dog poop. The designers fixed none of the G6's shortcomings and broke the stuff that was at least tolerable.
Regardless, It looks ok (maybe a bit to much of an aftermarket look) and should perform well for a fwd car.
The Grand Prix sure is looking old and tired
Here ya go pal....
Rocky
:shades:
I'm impressed.
Rocky
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060404/AUTO01/604040384/- 1148
Rocky
It amazes me how edmunds would test the midlevel Lucerne and compare it to the Azera Limited. :confuse:
Rocky
To me, the Lucerne is a car that the magazines will find faults with, but the target buyer would be extremely pleased with.
I think it's a nice looking car, I wouldn't buy it, but it's not marketed to me either. I see the Lucerne as a car my dad would really like.
--------------------
You're right, the Lucerne is a step forward for GM...
...but when the foreign competition is 4 steps ahead, it makes you wonder why GM didn't simply copy the competition. That would have gotten them 4 steps ahead, instead of the 1 step they took on their own.
:confuse:
But then, GM hasn't been known for it's sound management or rational business decisions of late.
GM has done best when it does its own thing and doesn't compromise, a la Cadillac. Nitpickers will always find a reason to hate GM products.
Rocky
The soft suspension that GM usually fits to these cars - especially the Buicks - accentuates the feeling of acceleration, as the car does literally "leap" when the pedal is floored.
As for my old man's '05 Lucern, I couldn't believe the depreciation hit it took even after the employee pricing.
10 grand in one year!
To add insult to injury, the dealership where my dad bought the car, told my mom over the phone one price only to drop it several thousand down after she showed up with a spotless car that had only 3,000 miles on it. I told her to just be done with it and close the chapter on GM.
BTW; my mom, sister, brother and I do not own a GM product nor do we ever intend to.
GM is in trouble right now, and its high labor cost is one of the reasons. GM paid for your fathers medical bills and probably coverred your mother and you. How do you thank them? Bash the product, complain and complain yet many of the cars defeciencies are because GM had to budget for your fathers medical bills.
"A society that values its privlages above its principles soon loses both" --Eisenhower, 1953 Inagural Address.
strangled GM in the 80's and early 90's. GM gave the unions what they wanted to avoid a strike, and because
times were good for GM sales/money were no problem.
But in the 90's foreign competition stepped up, foreign
cars were pretty bad in the 80's also, I had one in 1987
and it was horrible. Foreign car makers have so many
benefits american car makers don't. Tons of retired
workers, health care benefits, and unions have pulled
american car makers to the ground. Foreign car makers
come over here to make cars and get 6 to 10 years free
property taxes, no retired workers, fresh young workers
not in a union, and health care not near as generous,
and costly. That makes a huge savings per car.
Every car maker these days makes reliable cars, and
resale on all of them stink. German, asian, american,
resale is BAD. I just retired with a big company, and
I managed their fleet of over 200 vehicles.
American cars did not loose any more value than foreign
cars. In fact foreign cars cost more to maintain than
most american cars. The company I was at would put
180K to 210K city miles on their cars. The cars that
did the best were the old american stoggy cars the Ford
Crown Vic, Mercury Grand Marquis, and Lincoln Town Car.
If you don't believe me go to New York City, and that is
all you will see as cabs, and Limos. I think everyone
will agree with me the baddest life a car can have is as
a TAXI. The foreign car makers design a good car right
now, but price is more than it should be.
In america we better be careful, most foreign countries
support themselves by importing as little as possible.
In america we import everything, and shun what we produce.
We have seen many jobs leave this country because of this
thought, and because our pay is too high in this global
economy. If we are not careful, too many of us will be
without jobs, or at least decent jobs.
You call it bashing, I call it the truth.
It's a cop out to blame my Dad's medical expenses on the poor vision and exectution of GM.
Dad brought home some awesome rides in the 60's or so it seemed - 65 Pontiac Catalina convertable, 66 Corvette, 67 Cadallac.... It wasn't until the 70's when I traded my first car ('77 Chevette) for a 1980 Honda Accord. I never looked back. It was like night and day. My dad knew GM was in big trouble, but Detroit just kept pumping junk on it's loyal buyers.
After 20 years of driving Hondas, Acuras, Lexus, BMW and MBZ, I could never go back to GM - they don't feel right to me. I guess you could say I'm set in my ways, like GM management.
Sorry, but the fact is people moved on when the US product went down. I possibly would consider a Corvette, just maybe a CTS, and may purchase a Mustang, but the rest of the stuff, unless deep discounted I will pass on it.
OK, maybe a couple other cars. Cars cost a lot of money, and people are looking for the best product. That is the bottom line. Lee Iacocca must be rested up by now, and ready to take control. Send him into the ring! Ahhh, the old names. Shelby Mustang is coming soon. Maybe Carol Shelby can spark up something for Ford. Whatever it takes.
-Loren
P.S. Lucerne is in Switzerland. It is a dairy brand of Safeway,and a Beretta is a gun company in Italy. And at least Beretta was not happy about their name being used.
Rocky
1- Ford Escape: ----------------- 42,268 down 4%
2- Jeep Liberty: ---------------- 35,424 down 13%
3- Toyota RAV4: ----------------- 33,944 up 117%
4- Honda CR-V: ------------------ 32,351 down 8%
5- Saturn Vue: ------------------ 23,207 up 30%
6- Chevy Equinox: --------------- 22,606 down 24%
7- Nissan Xterra: --------------- 18,616 up 2%
8- Jeep Wrangler: --------------- 17,683 up 13%
9- Subaru Forster: -------------- 12,569 down 2%
10- Hyundai Tucson: ------------- 12,192 up 1%
11- Honda Element: -------------- 12,144 down 0.5%
12- Pontiac Torrent: ------------ 10,983
13- Mercury Mariner: ------------ 9,997 up 22%
14- Kia Sportage: --------------- 9,635 up 124%
15- Mazda Tribute: -------------- 8,478 down 20%
16- Suzuki Grand Vitara: -------- 7,215 up 414%
17- Suzuki XL-7: ---------------- 4,787 down 31%
18- Toyota FJ Cruiser: ---------- 2,784
Rocky
Rocky
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060405/BUSINESS01/604050344/10- 14
Rocky
***
(Taken from the above road-test link)
UM.... What in the hell are they talking about? 290ft-lb is a silly amount. Name me one 60s or 70s stock car that had more power - oh there are some, but not many.
Toyota's 3.5L - not even close to that much power.
Somehow people get into this "horsepower" craze, much like people get into "MHz" for computers. Edmunds should be smart enough to figure out horsepower:
Horsepower = rpm x torque / 5252
????5252???
Yep - it's a totally artificial number they plugged in there. And it's based off of torque, which is a known unit that can be measured. So in theory, you could make a car with 50hp and 300ft-lbs of torque, or vice-versa if you wanted.(tractor engine for one and turbine for the other) The only way to know how fast a car truly is, given that anything today can exceed any known speed limit with ease, is how hard it pulls when you hit the gas.
Toyota 3.5L:
Base Number of Cylinders: 6 Base Engine Size: 3.5 liters
Base Engine Type: V6 Horsepower: 268 hp
Max Horsepower: 6200 rpm Torque: 248 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 4700 rpm
GM:
Base Number of Cylinders: 8 Base Engine Size: 4.6 liters
Base Engine Type: V6 Horsepower: 275 hp
Max Horsepower: 6000 rpm Torque: 295 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 4400 rpm
I think you are spot-on in that reviewers, which are jaded as a rule and envision themselves as "experts" who fantasize about racing, even though they obviously couldn't cut it(Top Gear, otoh - great show by real professional drivers) MSN Autos has it as 7.5 Review/9.5 Customer. That's a huge gap. Reviewers also hate the Wrangler as well, but customers love it. 7.3/9.4 disparity - I guessed this one and was exactly right. Heh.
And - yeah - you test a midlevel Buick versus a top-end import - hey! I have an idea - let's test a RX-8 versus a 350Z! Wait. They already did that nonsense, even though the RX-8 is really a sportscar-looking sports sedan. Put it against a Lexus IS250 or Audi A4 instead. (Yes, the 350Z whomped on the RX-8 as expected - DUH)
Good God, if GM paid my Dad's medical expenses through his last days rather than letting him just die like a dog ala Wal-Mart, I'd be praising God for GM and would reward the company by buying another GM car in a New York nanosecond. Geeze, just think of the hardship on your Mom if GM wasn't there for your Pop. Moms would loose her house and savings and end up who knows where?
Lucerne or DTS used, may be a value when $10K to $14K comes off the first year, but not at retail price, as new. Sorry, but those are the facts.
-Loren
So lemko, do you like the Tiger Woods edition Lucerne CXS ?
I hope you atleast registered to win one. I'd be very happy if anyone on here won one, especially a true fan like you. :shades:
Rocky
Rocky
they all seem the same to me.
$10k drop in one year - and I'm not including the sales tax either.
Rocky
how about because they make the better product? or at least come close?
When I'm at home depot, I'll buy the made in the USA when it's equal in quality and a bit higher priced, but GM lost me long ago with a poor product.
But then again, my Honda is made here is the US and that does make me feel better.
Doesn't Honda offer medical expenses to it's employees in the US? You'd think GM is the only company around to offer medical the way you post.
Rocky
Pay sticker? not even...this was GM "family" pricing.
purchase price in 2005 was $27k and change
selling back to dealer because no one answered the ad in the paper in 2006 was $17k. This for a car with $3,000 miles on it.
Toyota 3.5L:
268 hp @ 6200 rpm
227 ft-lb =
65 ft-lb per liter
248 ft-lbs. @ 4700 rpm
71 ft-lb per liter
GM 4.6L:
275 hp @ 5600 rpm
258 ft-lb =
56 ft-lb per liter
295 ft-lbs. @ 4400 rpm
64 ft-lb per liter
The Northstar is not a BAD motor, just superannuated. Its successor should have arrived about 2003, and the Toyota and Nissan DOHC V8s (and Hyundai's in about a year) just make it look even more outdated.
I don't see Honda paying celebreties to endorse their cars.
I guess they don't need to.
I know Nike pays Tiger about $40million to endorse their stuff which is made in Thiland, China and Indonesia. New Balance shoes on the other hand is able to manufacture some of their shoe here in the US. They don't pay one idividual $40 million, instead they employ a village in the US somewhere.
Base Engine Type: V6 Horsepower: 240 hp
Max Horsepower: 6000 rpm Torque: 225 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 2000 rpm
Okay - less power than the 3.5L Toyota, but the 3.5L has to be revving over twice the speed to develop a puny 23ft-lbs more torque. People say all sort of bad things about the 3800, but dang - that 's a flat torque-curve. Almost diesel-like.