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GM's 3.5 engine doesn't really get much more HP very year or two, but get this - the peak torque RPM has dropped with every generation of the engine. I didn't even notice this until I compared the Avalon's 3.5L engine and the Buick's 3.5L engine - and the Avalon was at 4700RPM.
The Buick is at *2000*.
My 1987/My sister's 1988 Buicks? ~4800RPM for maximum torque. Then it dropped to 4000. Even the 3.8L got bettter.
The Variable-Valve version in the LaCrosse is - WOW. Show me anything from Japan that gets maximum torque of over 200ft-lbs at only 2000rpm.
It appears as if GM is going for low-end grunt as opposed to high-end thrashing and HP number-jockying. Toyota - seriously - when was the last time you actually saw anyone push an Avalon to nearly redline except for 0-60 test runs? The gearing is too tall and it wants to shift at 2500rpm, even during heavy acceleration, if you lift your foot off the gas for a microsecond.
Buick's no different in this behavior, but consider:
Samer torquer at half less than half the RPMs. Normal driving nets maximum torque, like a diesel. Also, the GM does it with one less gear.
Why is this important? Because any yahoo can get a high-HP engine with no torque to perform if you add enough gears. GM doesn't *need* a 5th gear to make it work because of the engine's V8-flat torque curve. Toyotas are doing the Honda VTec trick of silly high posted HP ratings while only really manipulating the gearing. Del Sol? ~120HP Del Sol VTec? ~160HP. Exact same torque. Compare a Celica and Celica GT. Same story. I don't honestly buy Toyota's promises of "more power" when you have to flog the engine to get there.
Plus, one less gear is one less shift-point. You loose about half a second every time you shift. If you aren't revved up, it can cost you several seconds.(and that's very easy to do with typical automatics - sigh)
GM? At 2000 RPM it has maximum torque and about 150-180HP from what I can tell. Very driveable as a result. It basically is putting out what a 4-cylinder high-end engine does at maximum revs while roaming around town at a liesurely pace. That "lurch" you feel isn't the suspension anymore.
AND you can get a bench seat! Seat 6 people. I'll take your 7 passenger minivan and replace it with a 6 passenger sedan anyday(when was the last time most people actually used one for 7 people - 5-6 is ten times more common)
Upon seeing the new engine sepcs, I'm going to test-drive one. It looks as if Buick has a serious import-beater with that engine.
The real question is will these SUV sales hold when gas hits $3.00 again this summer? (Pretty much all analysts are expecting this to happen). That's the first test.
Second test is next year, when the SUVs are no longer "new". What's the carrot then?
If demand holds, GM can hold. If not, things could get ugly.
The Buick is at *2000*. "
If the engine in the Avalon makes 248lb at 4700 RPM, then it must develop 90% of the torque (225 lb-ft) at 2000 RPM, same like the LaCrosse. But where the LaCrosse holds it constant beyond that, The Avalon keeps giving you more. How about some 0-60 mph numbers between the two cars?
The fact is GM needs a 6 speed auto in the worst way if it wants to compete performance wise with the imports. The new v6 Camry as similar performnace numbers to v8 Impala/GP and offers much better fuel economy.
Plus, one less gear is one less shift-point. You loose about half a second every time you shift. If you aren't revved up, it can cost you several seconds.(and that's very easy to do with typical automatics - sigh)
That's simply false. Just look at the Nissan Maxima & Altima when they went to a 5 speed auto from a 4 speed. Acceleration numbers and fuel economy imporved.
Maybe GM should go back to the 2 speed powerglides and completely demolish the competition. It would reduce 0-60 times by at least 1 or so... LOL
Me 2
Rocky
I'll tale GM's "high feature" 3.6 over VW's version. Now give me VW's "W" engine then I'd rethink that one.
Rocky
:shades:
Rocky
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/HPT%20Library/HFV6/2006_36- - L_LY7_LaCrosse.pdf
Note that 90%, about 200 lb-ft, are available from 1200 RPMs to 6000 RPMs.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060406/AUTO01/604060387
:sick:
Rocky
And I have no idea why you'd take GMs 3.6 over VWs on the basis of performance, no comparison. That would hold true of many other manufactures 3.5 to 3.6L v6's as well.
That's not necessarily true.
first off: Nike does sell shoes for over $100 made in Vietnam. Never have I seen a Nike shoe for $30.
If you use New Balance as an example, they make a comparible product (maybe even better) here in the USA for the same price as Nike. Not all their shoes but many.
The difference is they don't pay Tiger Woods $40 million to endorse them.
I'm sure the people in Vietnam are thrilled to have Nike there making shoes, but there are people here who could make them if you use the New Balance model.
Giving one person $40million vs. employing a village in the US? It's a shame that's called a free market.
That is right. I do have that article. I've read so many other mags that have it 6.6-6.9. Still a good performer.
I like GM's 3.6 I suppose better. I did admire the "W" engine that VW had in it's cars. I also am not impressed that a car in that price segment doesn't come with power seats. read the article on it one more time. I'd also reccommend reading other tests before you decide. The VW is indeed a safe, bankvault type car. I however question it's true "Value" and think the G35, Acura TL, Lucerne, and even Avalon, Camry, offer more bang for the buck. If I wanted to buy the best possible car for the money diesel, I'd buy a Acura TL with a 6 speed, w/ voice recognition Navi. With rising gas prices pal you will get awesome performance and over 30 mpg hwy. I drove my TL pretty damn hard and I avg city/hwy 26.6 mpg.
Yeah that included alot more HWY than city, but it does show how cost effective it really is. I'd also reccommend getting the lip-spoiler and high performance tires if you wanted to carve up some back roads.
I however would want you to be cautious about finding a good dealership, because of what happened to me.
Rocky
No doubt that an overhaul of the Healthcare system could help a company like GM. There's just no ledership there to get it done.
I wished Nike would make em' here (atleast some) since I like there designs better.
BTW- paying Tiger Woods 40 million is a drop in the bucket for Nike. He's sold Hundreds of Millions worth of merchandice by himself over the years for Nike. that leaves enough money left over for Nike to build a plant here in the U.S. and make shoes over here. They could get away with paying a person $10-$14 dollars an hour in the south to make shoes. Give them as a bonus a pair of free shoes, clothes, etc.
Rocky
If I'm Tiger, I'd take the money too, but I'm not, so I wear alot of New Balance shoes to make up for all the crap I consume from China.
Atleast MJ is buying a Vette ZO-6 :shades:
Rocky
I was more referring the engines themselves. The Passat, while certainly a nice car is just in a crowded field. For $35k I don't think that be my choice, but I've always liked VW W and narrow angle v6's.
The TL's are very nice, as is the G35. Ahh, so many choices.
I'm in the same situation pal. I want a very good gadgetology car, with good performance. i'm hoping the G8 will get here. The CTS-V might be to much of a far reach for my wallett now that I had to move. :sick:
I can basically afford up to a $40-45K car with my GM discount. Of course residuals have to be factored into the equation.
Rocky
With the Subaru, I don't car so much about the spec B package since the same drivetrain can be had with GT.
As I've gotten a little older, what I can afford and what I'm willing to spend have reversed. So while something like a CTS-V would be cool, no way will I spend that much.
Rocky
Also have you checked out the new Enclave :surprise:
If you haven't checked out the Enclave pal, I would do so if a SUV is okay. :shades:
Rocky
P.S.
My Momma(wife) wants one
It's not to late
Rocky
If you write the AMG Benz into your "Will" :surprise: I'll be your kid. :P
Rocky
in '68 there was no competition to the big 3. Drive an American car for 10 years and I can see why you get used to the feel - it's quite different from what came on the market from Japan.
by the late 70's when Japan started selling cars in the US, the small car market was turned upside down.
IMO not much changed through the 80's and 90's. What car did GM put out that matched up well against the Accord or Camry? It wasn't just a first impression, cause I always had the access to GM "family" pricing, but never saw anything that compared to the Accord.
That's not just my opinion, but pretty much speaks for my generation. It's just one very big reason why GM is in such dire straights.
There wasn't Ferrari, Porsche, etc :confuse:
Rocky
P.S.
I'm just being sarcastic, you can kick me.
making a mistake and buying an inferior car?
or would you say that you are an anomaly?
There is an old Caprice on my street. I'm not sure I would put it in the class of an Accord - it's look pretty big to me.
Rocky
You have a point, but those days are long gone.
Ironically the last GM product my dad purchased was a 79
Caprice wagon with a 305. It was a reliability disaster. Nothing but fuel problems. I can't count how many times it wouldn't start or would barely run. Great family vehicle when it ran.
My grandpa had good luck with his '83 Delta 88 (nice car), 87 Caprice Broughm LS (nice car), then the down fall with his '92 Roadmaster & '97 & '00 Park Ave's that were basically junk.
Rocky
I know you aren't impressed with GM's past 70-90's. I'm not either. However wouldn't you agree GM is getting much better here recently. Look at the Lucerne, new SUV's, new Caddy's. While not neccessarily being the best at everything, they atleast compete.
Rocky
Rocky
I'm surprised at the trouble your Pop had with the 305 wagon. My best friend had a 1978 Impala with the 305 that went to 100K without a hiccup. I'd have waited for 1994 to get the Roadmaster with the LT-1 derived V-8, but any well-maintained Roadmaster is in great demand here.
What's really messed up is he traded it in on a 1985 Ford Tempo that was very reliable until it hit 100k miles or so. My dad's had good luck with all his Fords. After the Tempo he put 230k relatively trouble free miles on a '92 CrownVic and he has over a 100k on his current '00 Taurus (duratec). It has held up very well.
Who really cares what a famous person endorses, unless they are truly a lemming. Personally, "a good walk wasted", I find a fair description of golfing anyway. I will not buy Nike products.
The Buick, near Cadillac status died long ago. Long before the GM car line went down for the count for style and reliability. The 60's possibly had the last of the Buicks as a status car line, though you have to go a bit further to find the glory days. Cars like the Lucerne are typical GM marketing. Start off with an old 3.8 V6 underpowered car, have the press hammer it, and people wonder why they are doing this, then offer something better a few years latter when the line is near death. By the time Corvair met its fate, the car was pretty good looking and handling was safer. The Fiero, once they fixed some problems was a better car, though I am sure not perfect, just in time to stop production. The Lucerne seems to be selling, or they have a lot in rental fleets now, since I see some of those on the road. Yes, GM cars on the road in California coastline. The Impala seems to sell some here, but who knows, perhaps they are rentals and leases to companies too. I do not see many on the car lots. Certainly save some dollars compared to getting the Lucerne. Altima, Camry, Avalon, and Accords sell the most around here. The Jetta was big with the college gals, but these days sales have slowed it seems. Typical cars for this college town are Civic, Mustangs, Jettas, then SUVs and Volvos the parents once owned. A few drive domestic cars. Also not uncommon to see new Bimmers driven by the college guys and gals. Must be nice to be so rich. I had to buy all my cars back when. Actually my skateboard, bikes, motorcycles, cars, were all bought from working and saving money.
Oops, I am drifting. No not in a car. My mind. Back on subject of STYLE saving GM. If all the cars were as fresh as the Solstice ( which is hard to find, and thus impossible to see ) then the image may have improved for GM. The other cars, while new for GM, look old to the buying public. By this I mean they look like something typical to come out of the GM body mill. Even is good, or OK, they are not the shocker, knock-out styling which gets people excited. Ford went back to the 60's on the Mustang, which is both good and bad. Good car, yet it seems like they could have progressed on the Mustang styling to bring it into the 21st Century look. It sells, I would buy it, so Ford made a good decision in that respect IMHO. It is just sad that nothing new is out there at Ford and GM... well little new. Really like the style of the Hyundai Tiburon. I realize if Ford did something like that, it would be another Probe, which sold a few cars, was competing with the Stang, then dropped.
Maybe GM needs a Tiburon more than a Camaro. Or maybe both. A great sub $20K car and a greater $25K retro Camaro. Rumor has it, Tiburon will go rear wheel drive next change.
-Loren
pf_flyer can you give me a link to the video ya'll captured during a actual running test. For some darn reason I can't get linked to it. :sick:
It does look alot like the Lexus SC
Rocky
bumpy, that's a awful thing about the Velite pal. :surprise:
Fake wood where ? It's conservative and contemporary and Sexay :shades: It spits class and heritage, not some town pimp image.
I pray to the good lord Buick builds me my American Dream Car. I will have one if they build me it. I will sell the kids and the wife if that is what it takes :P
Rocky
This use to bring up a video of the Velite being driven
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/101518/page001.html
Thanks Steve (host)
bumpy, I like ya pal, but man saying this car is for the "pimp" canidate is crazy.
It's what Tiger Woods, apires to drive after
he wins the "Masters" again. :shades:
This car is "beyond precision" and is the benchmark
for convertibles of all brands. Aston, Mercedes, eat your heart out
Rocky
P.S.
The Buick Velite Roadster Song:
I'm Too Sexy
I'm too sexy for my love too sexy for my love
Love's going to leave me
I'm too sexy for my shirt too sexy for my shirt
So sexy it hurts
And I'm too sexy for Milan too sexy for Milan
New York and Japan
And I'm too sexy for your party
Too sexy for your party
No way I'm disco dancing
I'm a model you know what I mean
And I do my little turn on the catwalk
Yeah on the catwalk on the catwalk yeah
I do my little turn on the catwalk
I'm too sexy for my car too sexy for my car
Too sexy by far
And I'm too sexy for my hat
Too sexy for my hat what do you think about that
I'm a model you know what I mean
And I do my little turn on the catwalk
Yeah on the catwalk on the catwalk yeah
I shake my little touche on the catwalk
I'm too sexy for my too sexy for my too sexy for my
'Cos I'm a model you know what I mean
And I do my little turn on the catwalk
Yeah on the catwalk on the catwalk yeah
I shake my little touche on the catwalk
I'm too sexy for my cat too sexy for my cat
Poor [non-permissible content removed] poor [non-permissible content removed] cat
I'm too sexy for my love too sexy for my love
Love's going to leave me
And I'm too sexy for this song
:surprise:
Talks about public perception and GM.
Rocky