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  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Actually LaCrosse retail sales are up over last year. Fleet is down. And that is with lower incentives. ($500 today vs. $1000 a year ago).

    The Camry and Avaloon also overlap significantly in the same ways-price and size.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Did anyone see 60 minutes? Showed the new CTS.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    Never mind the Avalon and Camry. Take a look at a car that will compete head-to-head with the Lucerne V8. Both cars are priced similarily and they appeal to the same type of people.

    2007 Lexus ES350.
    3.5 V6, 272 hp, 6-speed, 3600 lb weight,
    21/30 mpg, 0-60 in 6.1 sec.

    2006 Buick Lucerne:
    4.6 V8, 275 hp, 4-speed, 4000 lb weight,
    17/25 mpg, 0-60 in 6.9 sec.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Great numbers but this is what I was responding to. And I do agree that there is cross shopping but it is the same at the vaulted Toyota.

    With the LaCrosse, the problem is right across the showroom floor. The Lucerne's prices overlap those of the LaCrosse to a fair degree, and the car is roomier and considerably better-looking, too. Not a smart move by GM.

    Of course your numbers are correct but the buying public is still buying more Lucernes than ES's. Especially the V8. Somehow they seem to like the Buick better.

    Feb '06: Lucerne 7327 ES 3223
    Jan '06:..........6107....3333
    Dec '06...........5812....6770

    If you wre to look at only numbers you would say Buick is eating Lexus's cake. But as usual there are reasons for this. Lucerne is brand new and the hot car to buy today, The ES is old news and there is a new one coming out soon. But the Lucerne is also ramping up production and not reached it's peak yet. BUT the biggest reason Lucerne is doing so well is that it has a lower ATP than the ES. I can only guess the average is $32 or so while the ES is closer to $35. That difference can drive sales. As the Lucerne gets less hot over time the ATP will go down closer to the $28K range and the volume will actually level out at a higher level than today but at a less profit/car amount.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    Sorry, I really don't agree (at least for this part of the country) that the Buick Lucerne appeals to the same type of buyer as the Lexus 330. Maybe it should theoretically, but Buicks of any kind do not have the "cool" factor that seems to be very important on the East and West Coasts. Lexus, Infinity, Acura certainly have it. Buick has their work cut out to earn that image again. And somehow I still think that the days of the large V-8 front drive sedan are numbered, especially when they get 17 mpg city. Not with gasoline going over $3/gallon this Summer.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The Lucerne needs a few things.

    #1 a 6 speed auto

    #2 a bump in horsepower

    #3 gadgetology to compete with Toyota. The Avalon has a good advantage on the Lucerne

    #4 The Lucerne needs to keep the walnut wood from the tiger edition, since it looks better. ;)

    #5 The Lucerne needs to have RWD in the future I believe. Do any of you disagree with me on this one ?

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Having American made parts in automobiles seems to be a thing of the past as we move forward. With Delphi closing 1/2 of it's part plants will lower american content in all of GM's vehicles. Even non-union parts plants here in the U.S. such as my former employer
    "Johnson Controls Interiors" has said they want to move all it's operations overseas or across the border. Top wage at JCI is almost $16 an hour for a Tech. You start out at $11 and change. My cousin and his spouse, lost their jobs about 6 months ago do to cutbacks at JCI. My told me she even heard that the owner of Gentex was exploring the idea of putting another plant in Mexico. She has been there almost four years and only makes $13 bucks an hour. The insurance and 401K stinks. My Step-father had to go from making $22 an hour to $12 an hour, but he atleast has good insurance. He recently got a raise to $13. Mom says they are lucky, because they only paid $77K back in the early 90's for their home. She says it's hard to understand how people she works with can afford a $140,000 home on $13 bucks an hour. She told me some have their sister or parents living in these homes. :surprise:

    I suppose eventually we will be like the Russians with a steel drum in the middle of the living room, all huddled up throwing paper in the barrel to keep warm. :mad:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well i'm not sure what you mean ? A Chinese made vehicle by GM or a Geely, Chery, vs. an American made GM ?

    I think you'd be better of asking would you buy a Kia, or Chery or Geely ?

    GM still is going to have a loyal following for a while. Their interior quality's and fit and finish have improved and are still better than anything Hyundai has to offer.

    Now in 10-15 years, The Chinese could past Kia, Hyundai, and meet or exceed the best from Japan. I suppose it will be a gut check when that time comes. Do you want to support a potential WWIII opponent further with a purchase of a car or not ? :surprise:

    I also don't understand why you left Ford and Chrysler out of the question ? Ford has came along way also in fit and finish, but I wouldn't say they are leaps and bounds better than GM. Chrysler's "Fit and Finish" is further behind and is at the levels of Hyundai. However Chrysler's fit and finsh is better than Kia. The reason why Chrysler is doing so well is because there cars are being more and more made outside this country. However there quality standards, do show up in the final product, but are cheaper in every way making alot of folks think they are buying american, when they could by a honda nad toyota with alot more american contenet. ;) Luckily for them this topic hasn't been braught up by "us" at all and by the major media, thus they are getting a free pass.
    I like lemko do like the new Imperial alot and feel they have proven when they are committed they can build a very nice car. :)

    Rocky
  • wilcoxwilcox Member Posts: 582
    ...is whom we'll buy more of?

    World War III? I'm praying for the families at GM and Ford. But prayers don't work very well when it's "economic warfare".
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    LOL :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Cutting benefits, union ties and moving to China, Mexico, bankrupt supplier could pave way for others.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060402/AUTO01/604020302/- 1148/AUTO01

    BTW- My father was temporary placed on the Jobs bank program in 87' during the recession. He said jobs were very scarce and we would of lost are home if it wasn't for this program. Dad also said with all the suggestions he offered over the years about $3 or 4 million dollars worth, which he said more than paid for his time being laid off and on the jobs banks. ;)

    I think most folks look at the Jobs Bank, and only see negative side of it.

    Rocky
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    62vetteefp. I wasn't compraing the Lucerne with the ES350. I was comparing the Lucerne V8 to the new ES350. We all know Lucerne outsells ES350 because it's simply cheaper.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    GM faces threat to supply of Delphi parts
    Supplier wants more money, seeks to cancel contracts

    April 1, 2006

    Delphi Corp. turned up the pressure on General Motors Corp. to fund a bailout of the insolvent automotive parts supplier by asking a U.S. bankruptcy court to cancel more than 5,400 money-losing parts contracts with GM.

    The automaker, already battling falling U.S. sales and losses totaling $10.6 billion last year, now must contend with the threat that its largest supplier could stop shipping parts unless it pays more.

    The contracts for parts such as brakes, batteries, oil filters and shock absorbers represent about half of the billions of dollars in parts GM buys from Delphi in North America each year. Delphi supplies more than $2,000 worth of parts used in every GM vehicle built in North America, or more than $10 billion in total business.

    All but 10 of the parts contracts are with 21 U.S. plants, including six in Michigan, that primarily supply GM and are projected to post operating losses of $2.1 billion this year because of high labor costs, Delphi said.

    "We need GM to cover a greater portion of the costs of manufacturing products for GM," Delphi Chief Executive Officer Steve Miller said in a news release Friday. "We simply cannot continue to sell products at a loss."

    GM will not immediately need to find other suppliers to replace Delphi. Delphi expects its motion to reject the contracts to be heard at a May 12 bankruptcy court hearing, giving Delphi and GM 42 days to continue negotiations.

    GM has been stripping away business from Delphi for years, and last week the automaker stopped buying spark plugs made at Delphi's plant in Flint. But shifting billions of dollars in parts business to other suppliers would take at least a year, said Van Conway, a partner with the corporate turnaround firm Conway, MacKenzie & Dunleavy in Birmingham.

    "There's not that much capacity to take that GM business out of Delphi and put it somewhere else," Conway said. "It would take a year, minimum, to find the capacity to move that stuff.

    "This new piece of information is bad news for GM," he added. "You can assume that if GM had to pay more on 5,000 contracts, it would be a lot of money."

    GM, Delphi and the UAW have been in talks for months on a plan to cut the supplier's labor costs. UAW officials have said they expect GM will help provide financial support to Delphi workers to help make up for lower wages and benefits.

    GM Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner said he disagreed with Delphi's decision to try to revoke the supply contracts. But he added that he anticipated Delphi would take this step.

    "GM will continue to work with Delphi, its unions and the court to achieve a consensual agreement that makes sense and is financially viable for all of the parties," Wagoner said in a news release.

    Both GM and Delphi say they lose money in their North American business transactions. Delphi says that the high wages and benefits it pays hourly workers, continued demands for price cuts from GM and GM's falling sales have eroded its profits.

    For example, a Delphi plant in Saginaw that makes vehicle chassis, which depends on GM for 85% of its sales, had an operating loss of $65.8 million last year, Delphi said.

    GM has said it pays a penalty of more than $2 billion a year buying Delphi parts. GM agreed in the 2003 contract negotiations with the UAW that it would buy some parts from Delphi at above-market prices to subsidize some of Delphi's U.S. plants and support workers.

    After Delphi filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in October, GM said it now could seek lower-cost suppliers for that business.

    Delphi said it also delivered a letter to GM on Friday to kick-start talks to reset terms and conditions for more than 400 parts agreements that expired during the six months from Oct. 1 to March 31.

    Delphi continues to ship parts to GM in accordance with those expired agreements, and said it will not unilaterally revise those terms and conditions before May 12. However, Delphi said that promise depends on GM not trying to buy those parts from other suppliers or making "hostile commercial initiatives" against Delphi.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Isn't that the car which failed a crash test? Will have to look that one up. I think it was tested in Europe. If I was buying a Korean car it would be a Hyundai, which has good product and great warranty. Chevy/Daewoo is a non-starter for me.
    -Loren
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I would buy either, I guess. Right now, GM is addressing all its advertising to how well it competes on price with the rest of the Big 6 (Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan), which I think is still missing the point a little bit, as devotees of the Japanese generally tend to expect to pay more and get a better product in return, so telling them that your GM car costs less to buy is just meeting their expectations and will not cause a change in consumer behavior.

    And GM can't really beat Ford in the price wars, and doesn't have the "chic factor" that Chrysler currently has.

    HOWEVER, if it took on Hyundai directly right now, it might score a blow, as it is on the verge of out-pricing Hyundai, which is trying to move upmarket faster than is wise.

    Meanwhile, if GM and Ford continue to try to beat everybody on price, they will just get thrashed when the Chinese arrive, as they will never be able to out-price them. They ought to be advertising facets of their vehicles that make them unique and/or attractive on an emotional level.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    And may I add, the Lexus and Camry/Avalon are all similar and would make a better buy than the Lucerne. Add up all three and how many do they sell. They have the luxury of not coming apart and looking old in five years time, even when driven hard. No doubt a garaged Buick, driven 2,ooo miles a year will indeed outlast a Toyota or Lexus driven 15,ooo to 20,ooo miles per year, in years of service.
    -Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Meanwhile, if GM and Ford continue to try to beat everybody on price, they will just get thrashed when the Chinese arrive, as they will never be able to out-price them. They ought to be advertising facets of their vehicles that make them unique and/or attractive on an emotional level.

    You forgot to factor in the possibility which I believe will happen is that GM could import Chinese Buicks. :sick:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The Lucerne is a better buy than the Avalon. It offers a better ride without being cushy, has lots of luxury, and in Tiger Woods form is down right Kewl and would be right at home on the finest golf courses. :shades:

    BTW- I'll take you up on your offer of a Northstar driven 15,000 a year vs. a garaged Avalon driven 2,000 miles and let's just see which one lasts longer eh ?

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    you know, that throws in a VERY interesting wrinkle! I think it is highly likely that within just a few years now, probably by 2010-2012 or so, we will begin to see a lot of North American GM cars being manufactured in China and shipped over.

    If those Chinese cars work at least as well as the current American-built GM cars, we may actually see a consumer confidence boost in Chinese cars, which Geely etc can then benefit from! Which would be most ironic (in a bad way) for GM, given that it probably will sustain the earliest losses if the Chinese companies do well.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kjs825kjs825 Member Posts: 7
    I am on a day off due to taxes and preparation. Reading just a small sample of the responses reveal a tremendous amount of testosterone,ego,looking back through rose colored glasses,and subjective opinion based on little substantiating fact or evidence,....Half of you are then wanting to start a put down, drag out, electronic knife fight with each other over an obviously patriotic laced issue......even one fellow who used the WWII Mitsubishi Zero vs P51 (not P52... BTW)Mustang anology as that was somehow revelant to today's problems with GM(an American company) vs Toyota (a Japanese company). Jeesh! An invitation is passed to join 2006 and read the --business-- issues that these companies face prior to letting us read the written ,Kaopectate deprived comments.
  • from_flfrom_fl Member Posts: 113
    I will stop buying Toyota product if Toyota merge with GM.
    GM should merge with Ford. They bring no value to Toyota brand.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    And may I add, the Lucerne/DTS and Impala/Monte Carlo/Grand Prix/LaCrosse are all similar and would make a better buy than the ES. Add up all six and how many do they sell. They have the luxury of not coming apart and looking old in five years time, even when driven hard. No doubt a garaged ES, driven 2,ooo miles a year will indeed outlast a Buick or Cadillac driven 15,ooo to 20,ooo miles per year, in years of service.

    Please look at the facts (of course you must have trust in JD Power not to be biased, which it should not since it uses scientific methodology)

    Lets not forget that Buick and Cadillac both do better in IQS2 and VDS for 2005 than Toyota. And the Impala/Grand Prix/LaCrosse do better in both rankings than the toyota competitors. The Lucerne and DTS are not out long enough even for IQS2 but their based on vehicles that were #1 and #3 in their segments. Heck for IQS2 the ES does not show up in the top 3 in it's segment and neither does the Camry/Avalon.

    Long term dependability Award Segment Model 2002 2001
    Lexus LS 430 (Premium Luxury Car) 90 128
    Ford Thunderbird (Entry Luxury Car) 107 ***
    Lincoln Town Car (Mid Luxury Car) 112 137
    Lexus RX 300 (Entry Luxury SUV) 114 163
    Porsche 911 (Premium Sports Car) 116 222
    Chevrolet Prizm (Compact Car) 122 165
    Buick Century (Premium Midsize Car) 123 161
    Buick LeSabre (Fullsize Car) 131 215
    Lexus LX 470 (Premium Luxury SUV) 167 159
    Mazda Miata (Sporty Car) 170 181
    Cadillac Escalade EXT (LD Fullsize Pickup) 170 ***
    Toyota 4Runner (Midsize SUV) 194 185
    Chevrolet Silverado HD (HD Fullsize Pickup) 199 263
    Chevrolet S-10 Pickup (Midsize Pickup) 202 246
    Honda CR-V (Entry SUV) 204 215
    Chevrolet Malibu (Entry Midsize Car) 221 226
    Ford Windstar (Midsize Van) 224 306
    GMC Yukon/Yukon XL (Fullsize SUV) 237 278
    Ford E-Series (Fullsize Van) 294 324
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    That would be an intersting merge. GM and Ford merge actually might work. ;)

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    But are Buicks and Caddies driven more than a couple thousand miles a year, or above 60 MPH?

    I will admit that a 30k to 55K Cadillac may last as long as a $15k to $30k Toyota, Honda, or Nissan. How many repairs in-between is the difference. And yes, the Prizm is a good Chevy/Toyota. The T-Bird has had transmission problems - wouldn't own one. Had a Miata - excellent cars, but too tiny.

    And real long term reliability is more like 7 to 10 years.

    Buick has the Century and LeSabre on the list of dependable cars, yet those two are now gone anyway.
    So we start all over in wonder of how reliable the next generation will be.

    -Loren
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I saw it. It was good. They were playing funeral music during the entire segment, but I was impressed that the UAW and its members seem to get the urgency of the matter, as well as Waggoner, who I predict will not survive much longer.....

    In the end, the conclusion was: GM needs to sell more cars!! Duh. That's the only thing that's gonna save them.

    I hear the Death Knoll in the background.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    MSNBC.com
    Fighting Back
    Critics are calling for Rick Wagoner’s head. But the feisty CEO of General Motors isn’t ready to give up just yet.
    By Keith Naughton
    Newsweek
    April 10, 2006 issue (Online version) –
    This is a tough time to be Rick Wagoner. The embattled chairman and CEO of General Motors is facing a growing chorus of critics calling for his head. With his company losing $10.6 billion last year and Toyota on the verge of overtaking GM as the world’s No. 1 automaker, Wagoner has become the personification of Detroit’s declining fortunes. He’s struggling to engineer a turnaround by closing a dozen factories, offering buyouts to all 113,000 of his blue-collar workers and trying to jump-start sales with new SUVs at a time of high gas prices. Last week his job got even harder: first, GM revealed a widening probe by the SEC and a federal grand jury into its accounting practices. And then Delphi, the bankrupt car-parts maker once owned by GM, asked a judge on Friday to toss out its labor contracts. That could ultimately spark a strike that could drive GM into bankruptcy, analysts say.
    Wagoner, 52, has kept a low profile as the criticism has mounted. But now he’s decided to come out swinging. In an interview with NEWSWEEK, he offers a passionate defense of the job he’s doing and rejects the notion of replacing him with an outsider. Excerpts:
    NEWSWEEK: How secure do you feel in your job?
    Wagoner: Completely. Because I know in the end all of us are going to be judged on accomplishments, whether we address issues and take advantage of opportunities. And I think we’re moving on both fronts frankly pretty well. So I feel very confident.
    Some say that because you grew up in the GM culture you’re unable to engineer the radical overhaul that’s required and that new blood is needed. What do you think of that?
    That is so simplistic. These are sophisticated problems with historical tails that run back 80, 90 years. The chance of someone coming in and not understanding our business, making the right calls and doing them in cooperation with key constituencies like dealers and unions, is absolutely microscopic. That would be the biggest risk I’ve ever heard of.
    The newspapers lately are filled with criticism of GM and you: are you reading it?
    I look at the pictures. [Smiles] Obviously, I flip through all the major papers, but frankly, I don’t dwell on it.
    What about the coverage has annoyed you the most?
    They talk about that we are not moving to address the problems. I want to say, “Excuse me, what part of $15 billion in health care [cuts], 12 plants [closing], 30,000 people [cut], attrition programs, salaried health-care and retirement [cuts], salaried head-count reduction, a new sales and marketing strategy, advancing product programs—what part of that doesn’t exhibit not only a sense of urgency, but most importantly a sense of urgency in doing what matters?”


    This urgency question arose when Jerry York (adviser to GM’s largest investor, Kirk Kerkorian) said in a January speech that GM needs to go into “crisis mode.” Are you moving fast enough?
    It’s easy to announce stuff. It’s not so easy to do stuff, particularly if you can’t do it yourself, if you’ve got to do it in cooperation or in conflict with unions, if you do it with Delphi, if you need partners to consider a partial sale of GMAC. What has been done in the last six months borders on unprecedented accomplishments and advances. This stuff didn’t happen because somebody decided on Jan. 15, why don’t we do stuff? This stuff happens because we’re working on it, we’re ready to do it, we’re talking to people, and then when we have it ready, we announce it.
    How’s your relationship with Jerry York since he went on the board in February?
    He’s a proactive participant in the board process. Beyond that, I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to comment.
    If Delphi does go on strike, does that make it inevitable that GM will file Chapter 11?
    No, there’s a lot of footnotes on that. If one plant at Delphi goes on strike for a week? No. I mean it’s inconvenient, but conceivably minimal impact on us. If the whole of Delphi goes on strike for a long period of time, well, I don’t see why they would do that. It’s not in Delphi’s interest. It’s not in the UAW’s interest. And it’s not in our interest.
    Why is bankruptcy a poor way to solve GM’s problems?
    First of all, look at Delphi. That’s exhibit A. People assume that just because you go into bankruptcy you can all of a sudden walk away from all your historical liabilities to creditors and to workers. And it’s not clear that it’s just that simple. Because workers and unions do have the opportunity to participate in negotiations, it’s not a one-way cram down.
    You’re a former CFO: how did GM’s accounting errors happen on your watch?
    Well, to be perfectly fair, I was last CFO in 1994. But it doesn’t mitigate the fact that, hey, mistakes were made.
    Is it embarrassing?
    Sure, absolutely. I didn’t like it at all. But once you discover that something is awry, you need to fix it. We went through something like 20 million documents to put all this stuff together.
    You played basketball at Duke and you’re very competitive. Would it bother you if GM fell to No. 2 behind Toyota?
    From the priorities, the challenges that we’re addressing today, this isn’t at the top of my list. I’d say our focus at this point is getting our business right and profitable.

    With all the progress you’ve made in quality and productivity, you still lag Toyota. Will you ever catch up to them?
    You could ask me, “Will they ever catch up with us in China where we started on a level playing field and we’ve grown to be twice their size and radically more profitable?” I look at that and say, “Well, when we all got to start at ground zero and nobody had an exchange-rate advantage or a health-care disadvantage, frankly we did very well. We showed we could compete with anybody and, in fact, up to this point, better than anybody.”
    I don’t think they’re giving up over there. And I would say that by the same token here, we started in some of these areas behind. And we made huge progress and we just need to keep doing that. So yeah, if we keep playing our game, I think we can.
    GM’s stock-market value is less than a tenth of Toyota’s. Why is there so little confidence in GM among investors?
    I think people are waiting to see what happens with [the partial sale of] GMAC and Delphi. And they’re waiting to see some turn in our business results.
    When that turn is coming is a question you won’t answer, right?
    You got it.
    And why won’t you say when you’ll be profitable?
    People are going to be judging us on the basis of our actual results. If there ever was a time when [former GM CEO] Jack Smith’s famous “Deeds, not words” is relevant, it’s right now. Until we get several of the overhang issues resolved and some clarity, we really don’t think it’s appropriate to put out a forecast. Once we get those resolved, w
  • kmrtnsnkmrtnsn Member Posts: 1
    I travel a lot and the products that GM sells overseas as Holdens and as Opels are gorgeous cars, every bit the styling and performance equals of their competitors in those markets but in this country they try to pass off rolling toasters like the Malibu and the new bland full-size trucks. GM cars sold here are butt ugly with piss poor fit and finish and they wonder why they continually lose market share. They make too many of the same thing. There is no need for every division to sell the same 10 products with different grills. Across the entire GM marketing spectrum there should only be 30 different vehicles. Not a minivan and SUV for each division but each division specializing in a niche market. Kill off Chevrolet, make Buick a style division, kill off Pontiac, make GMC the truck and SUV division. I think GM should end this kind of duplication, end the platform sharing, it'll make each division more distinct and appealing to the market. When we were looking for a new pick-up we took a look at the new GMs and were really disappointed with the fit and finish and poor quality fabrics. We ended up buying a Toyota Tacoma instead and just love it. It is probably the most trouble free vehicle I have ever owned. We are now looking for a new car and are considering a Chysler 300 but wish we could get it as a wagon like you can in Canada or Europe. I don't know who GM is marketing towards but they seem lost, a car for car comparison against any of their competitors leaves them dead last in style, fit and finish, reliability and price. Even the new Kias and Hyundais blow GM out of the water in styling and build quality and Kia has a full size SUV and pick-up in the pipeline, combined with the new Toyota Tundra I think GM is going to be finished in the light truck market segment and the car market without a huge restructuring. I think they need to kill off about 50% of their product line for a start.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    No they need to make more profit, and sell better cars. They already sell more cars. Overall, the product has improved. Let's all hope that todays product, being built during a time period of so much stress for all at GM, remains on the upswing in quality. I for one would not want to be working under such conditions. For the sake of the old company, and its workers, I do hope it all works out well in the long run.

    GM cars are some of the coolest at classic car shows. Perhaps a smaller and more focused company, with a few great cars will be the new GM. The days of building basic transportation, as in rental car class automobiles may be over, as Japan, Korea and soon China can build those for less cost. I may be totally wrong on that, but that is how I see the game.

    -Loren
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    This is from Edmund's own test of the Lucerne CXL V8:

    Just not our thing
    So aside from its blowtorch bun warmers, and perhaps its warmed windshield washer fluid, the Lucerne isn't exactly a hot one. It looks good on paper and in the flesh (Buick deserves bonus points for doing the portholes and doing them right), but out on the road, and in the cutthroat $28,000-$38,000 luxury sedan market, the 2006 Buick Lucerne CXL V8 just doesn't have the depth of execution to fight off its long list of new competition.

    Cars like the Hyundai Azera, Lexus ES 350 and Toyota Avalon may have six cylinders under their hoods, but they deliver more completely on the promise of a premium sedan.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I can personally attest to Buicks lasting very well. I could easily push my mother's current-generation LeSabre to over 90mph in maybe 10-12 seconds, and the engine has had um - nothing done to it in 70K miles. Original transmission as well.

    It's easily as reliable as any other large car out there - and drives better than a Camry or an Accord, that's for sure.

    My 1987 LeSabre - my father bought 3 years old, drove it for 15 years, doing everything from 90mph into Flagstaff, to trips back to the midwest, to carrying a ton of electrical and construction supplies daily for ten years, then gave it to me. I beat the crap out of it even worse and it finally died at 19 years and 170K miles. If I had been nice to it, it would still be ruinning, like my sister's 1988 Park Ave.(bought 3 years old as well - was my mother's car) Her car, which was properly kept up is still running like new at nearly 200K miles.

    My father's Park Avenue is close to 90K miles and has zero problems. But my Moher's LeSabre - it's got tons of power and a lot less weight, plus a very nice interior, not unlike the Lucerne(she has the top trim line with leather, HUD display, and all the goodies). Drives as well as any Lexus - for a lot less money.

    Sure - it's not as fast 0-60, but it will press you back in your seat hard enough to make you wonder why exactly you NEED to go this fast in the first place. 5 people in it, with the A/C on full, and a trunk crammed to the last inch full of luggage and it goes up The Grapevine like it was a small hill. 45 minutes later - you're heading towards Bakersfield at 75mph in near silence. The cruise control never varied up or down the hill by more than 2mph. Temperature? Up ten degrees for five minutes, near the summit, then back down as if nothing happened.

    How many 27K cars can go 80mph up that fully loaded, in the middle of summer, with the A/C on and basically ignore it? I've not had the same experience outside of an late 90's(last generation) Towncar. Except you can actually PARK this one. :)

    My uncle's Avalon isn't as nice. Very close, but just not as many features and amenities. Every time I drive my parents to the airport, I am amazed at how refined it is. The Lucerne is even better.

    Just...

    GM is killing itself as we watch. Fantastic cars - very reliable and the best power to MPG ratio out there - worst marketing and resale value. Truly makes me want to cry. Someone should kick Wagoneer upside his daft head for slowly killing Buick.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Don't forget you'll have to fix all the little plastic doors they put in the Avalon to be cool.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Pletko,
    You obviously haven't heard the mantra. The Buicks are only old folks' cars; the Buicks don't last-just fall apart after 3 years when JDPowers quits taking data?; the Buicks don't have enough power; the Lucerne doesn't have enough horsepowere in base model; the Lucerne has too many models; the Lucerne should have had more variations to suit each to compare with foreign brand of their favor; the Lucerne shouldn't have had so many variations; the Lucerne has too much horsepower with V8; the Lucerne needs a V6 with OHC; the Lucerne needs 8 speed transmission because, well, just 'because'; etc.; etc.; etc. :blush:

    People can't make up their collective minds what is not a good effort here, but they always can find some way to twist what is their pet point to turn it against Lucerne. If Hotoy were selling that many of a new model, it would be a wonderful success; Buick does it, "not good enough." Gimme a break. The Lucerne is a step forward. Oh yeah, I forgot, they should have taken 10 steps forward. :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    But are Buicks and Caddies driven more than a couple thousand miles a year, or above 60 MPH?

    Mine most certainly are!

    And real long term reliability is more like 7 to 10 years.

    My 1989 Cadillac Brougham and 1988 Buick Park Avenue are still going strong. That's REAL long term reliability!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I can personally attest to Buicks lasting very well. I could easily push my mother's current-generation LeSabre to over 90mph in maybe 10-12 seconds, and the engine has had um - nothing done to it in 70K miles. Original transmission as well.

    It's easily as reliable as any other large car out there - and drives better than a Camry or an Accord, that's for sure.


    Umm, I think your idea of a nice driving car and the rest of the buying public are quite different.

    I've driven many late model Lesabre's & Park Ave's and quite frankly, they suck. Now that's my opinion based on the fact I don't like numb/sluggish feeling cars, which both the Park Ave and LeSabre are. I'd much rather drive a v6 Accord which I have and it fits my tastes much better and has much quicker reflexes and acceleration.

    Reliable, I guess based on JD powers etc. My grandpa had a '97 & '00 Park Ave which both exhibited horrible build quality (misaligned panel gaps), electrical problems, and the '00 blew a head gasket by 60k miles.

    The only way a vehicle powered by a GM 3.8 v6 is going to accelerate 0-90 in 10 or 12 seconds is by driving it off a cliff. BTW, I almost did that with my grandpa's Park Ave trying to navigate I77 thru W. Virginia while transporting the car from Florida to Ohio, I felt as if the door handles were dragging on the ground going around curves. Man I couldn't wait to get out of that car.

    As for hill climbing performance I wasn't impressed. The 3.8 Park Ave could hardly go up any hill w/o downshifting out of o/d @ 75mph with just me in the car.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    dieselone . I think GM knows that Park Avenue and LeSabre had a stodgy image. Thats why both names were dropped despite their high sales, for the leSabre at least. It can't mean anything else. I am very sure it can't mean Buick is trying to find a new identity, otherwise they wouldn't have used the port holes and the ancient 3.8L.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I swear we must both live in parallel universes. I have a 1988 Buick Park Avenue with the older 3.8 V-6 and the car is like a rocket. It might look like Grandpop's car, but it goes like a scalded dog. As for reliability, I think I'd have to make a concentrated effort to destroy the car to get it to fail. My girlfriend has a LaCrosse and the build quality appears to be as good as any Lexus. The 3.8 delivers excellent fuel economy and has plenty of scoot. There are no misaligned panels or electrical gremlins.

    By the way, does Mr. Spock have a beard in your universe?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    OMG dieselone.......I thaught you vanished !!!!

    Great to see ya back pal. :shades:

    Rocky
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Buick has really gotten their act together with regards to build quality. The difference between the LaCrosse and the Century/Regal it replaces is phenominal. Now, IMO, there's still a bit too much plastic in the LaCrosse, and some of the interior colors are drab (these complaints go for most cars these days though) but everything seems to line up very well, with tight, even gaps, and much fewer examples of taking the cheap way out and just overlapping one piece over the other.

    I think the 3.8 might be reaching the ceiling of its usefulness though, in cars like the Lucerne and the outgoing Park Ave. Some of these cars are around 3800+ lb, and that just might be a bit much for it.

    It's not bad in the LeSabre though, or the various W-body cars. As for your '88 Park Ave, Lemko, those cars were pretty lightweight, and the 3.8 at that time was pretty torquey, so it might be a better performer than the more recent Park Ave, 3.8 Lucerne, etc!

    The Lucerne also seems much better put together than the outgoing Park Ave. It seems that GM has made improvements with these cars over the years, and the newer designs seem to be built better. For example, I think the Lucerne looks like it has better build quality than the LeSabre, but then the LeSabre, which was last redesigned for 2000, seems better put together than the Park Ave, which dates back to 1997 in its current form.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I have a 1988 Buick Park Avenue with the older 3.8 V-6 and the car is like a rocket.

    Yours is about 500 pounds lighter than the last Park Avenues, and the gearing in the later ones is probably far too tall for a car and engine its size (3.25 is about as tall as you'd want to go for 3800 pounds and the 3.8).
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Even though it's the Mazda chat, we can go into all kinds of stuff, including styling! ;)

    PF Flyer
    Host
    Automotive News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles


    The Mazda Club Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    pf_flyer,

    Thanx for the reminder ;)

    I'll try to make it.

    Rocky
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    get axle ratios around 2.73:1, 2.94:1, or 3.08:1?

    My old '82 Cutlass Supreme had a 2.41:1 rear end! But then, it didn't have overdrive, so in top gear it was still revving faster than a newer 3.8 with overdrive would. The overdrive would knock the 2.73, 2.94, and 3.08 down to 1.82, 1.96, and 2.05, respectively.

    That '82 was a dog from 0-60, but was actually a pretty good highway cruiser and seemed to do pretty well at higher speeds. But then, I had that car 12-13 years ago, so my memory's probably a bit rose-tinted. I'd probably think that it sucks today! And even though I've had a few other cars around that vintage, they've all been V-8.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The 3.5 V-6 "Shortstar" was a great engine.

    Andre, did you ever have the chance to drive GM's "hidden secret" the cutlass famous 3.3 V-6 (rare) ?

    That car would throw you back in your seat. I think dad's was a 91' :surprise: It has nearly 300,000 miles on it and it's still running.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    get axle ratios around 2.73:1, 2.94:1, or 3.08:1?

    Yep, and that's part of the problem. Putting those ratios in a car closing in rapidly on 4000 pounds is the kind of work suited to a smallish V8 (which is why the Impala and Monte Carlo get the LS4 and the Lucerne gets the Northstar). The 3.8 simply isn't enough engine to do that. A 3.55 final drive would cure the acceleration problem, but clobber the fuel economy and run the poor old 6 out of breath even sooner.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >GM's "hidden secret" the cutlass famous 3.3 V-6 (rare) ?

    What year was that? Is that the same as the 3300 in 1989 Century? Had one. Great. No EGR needed. Good gas mileage. Power of a 3.8 and economy of a 2.8 from that era. They dropped the motor after a few years.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yeah that's the same engine. ;)

    Dad never had to anything but change the oil every 5,000 miles or so.

    Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    OMG dieselone.......I thaught you vanished !!!!

    Nope, you guy's can only wish, LOL!! NO, I was out of town for a week, and have been busy with a "honey do list" a mile long.

    I've been routinely monitoring the boards but haven't had much time to post. I posted today since it appeared to me this thread needed a bit of stirring up!!
This discussion has been closed.