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General Motors discussions

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  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Watch 60 minutes this Sunday.
  • turboshadowturboshadow Member Posts: 338
    Gotta tell us why. What is the subject?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Actually do not know other than GM.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    jae5,

    It's going to happen, if GM doesn't come to the rescue like they are obligated via contract. GM put Delphi in a bad spot when they spun em' off. Delphi's management unfortunatley has "let's build it overseas" but charge a arm and a leg still :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Lots of jobs, but pay that's for some odd reason hasn't kept up with the times. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Rocky,what are you talking about? The median pay in the US is $37K. So half make more and half make less. Engineers have a median of $70 - 90K. About double the rest of the country. Sounds like engineers are doing pretty well.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    A Delphi strike (very possible) will doom GM, their new models may be irrelevant. Fact is that the new reality of high energy prices may change a lot of things of the way Americans live- be it big vehicles, big individual houses, big commutes, etc. And as gasoline goes to $3 per gallon, maybe higher, all of GM's complaining that it really is not bad, Americans still love the big iron will evaporate. They are done.

    Interesting statistic- about 75% of all licensed drivers in the U.S. own a car- in China, the figure is 5%! So as China and other countries become more industrialized and prosperous (as they supply the richer countries with manufactured articles of every sort), they will buy more cars and buy more of the world supply of oil. I really think that the trends are there- smaller cars, not as many power boats, smaller and more energy efficient houses- it will take a while but the U.S. has been drunk on cheap energy for a long while- the "hangover" won't be fun, and GM and Ford may be one of many companies that won't make it.
  • turboshadowturboshadow Member Posts: 338
    Rocky,what are you talking about? The median pay in the US is $37K. So half make more and half make less. Engineers have a median of $70 - 90K. About double the rest of the country. Sounds like engineers are doing pretty well.

    Exactly. I don't make the median, but I live in an area with very low cost of living. There are plenty of positions across the country that i am qualified for, and I could make a lot more money, but I like it here. If I needed a job, I could pack up and go anywhere.

    Furthermore, I would never complain about a level playing feild. There is no such thing. The sooner you realize and accept this, the sooner you are able to react and compete.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    I have a question.

    How is that data gather? I mean, is it from surveys sent to current engineers, if so what are the level of the engineers (senior, VP, President) company HR departments, retired engineers, length of service as an engineer, type of engineer?

    The point I'm getting at is if the data is only taken from a small section of engineers, say senior-level with many years in, that are making big-bucks, then you're going to have a high median. I know very few engineers that are making anywhere near $70 - $90K.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Was watching the CNBC channel at lunch today and all the talk was about Delphi, GM and the UAW. Even had James Hoffa on. Wasn't good let me tell ya.

    Don't think GM's in a position to rescue Delphi; shoot they can't rescue themselves from themselves ;)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    November 2004 (latest data available)
    Source: U.S. Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics


    Per the article.

    I would say that 70-90K median is very normal. I had 23 years, masters and certified in Michigan and would not accept a position for under $100k. Not that I have been looking but I know when I left GM I was not overpaid for my experience and duties AND friends were leaving for more money at other companies. (Nissan, toyota, suppliers, also outside of automotive). I read recently that starting engineers out of college are getting over $50k US wide.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    jae5,

    I'm devistated at the latest news I heard today from dad. They within' 2 years are closing the Delphi Coopersville Plant. (Fuel Injectors) This plant has always been GM/Delphi's most profitable plants and they are closing the doors. The plant was built in the early 80's so it's semi modern when compared to others. My dad sounded depress, because many of his friends will either move or lose their jobs. :cry: Dad says he was lucky he was on the bubble for retirement. Dad says he isn't elgible for the $35,000 which will make things even tougher. I could sense frusteration and anger in his voice, since he and his fellow co-workers did the best job they could to make the fuel injector sector very profitable for the company.

    Lemko, dad says exactly what you've said over the past 6 months and fears the worst is yet to come. He also feels the Chinese will own our country and the ego's by some americans is we can tell them to just get out. :confuse: We can but it won't be without a expense of another war against them wanting their billions worth of investments. The crooked CEO's and politcians will then ask the common man to fight the war they created. :mad:

    The United States of America is going to end up a 3rd world nation, and it seems everyone else has the blinders on besides the union people. What is it ? The news is really that harsh for the common person to accept ?????
    I think their is alot of turning the other cheeks going on :sick: Maybe that's the best approach nowdays. :(

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well why is GM paying engineers $35-40K today. GM used to pay top dollar for engineers. I think this $70-90K figures are B.S. maybe somebody who's in their 50's might be making that, but nobody in theire 20's and 30's are. I work for the DOE and they don't even pay those type of salary's. :confuse: My buddy is a computer engineer that has to travel all the damn time and he makes $5K less than me. ;)

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Well why is GM paying engineers $35-40K today. GM used to pay top dollar for engineers. I think this $70-90K figures are B.S. maybe somebody who's in their 50's might be making that, but nobody in theire 20's and 30's are.

    GM is not paying $40k for almost anybody. 4th level secretarys make $40k. BUT there are not many left. Secretary's are pretty much a thing of the past except for a few who support the unclassifieds and they do the unclassified and the entire department and are often shared AND they have been around a long time. Many of the "administrative assistants" are contract.

    But back to the data. This is Government data and I doubt they are BS. And the question stillis will the new styling save GM.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    But back to the data. This is Government data and I doubt they are BS. And the question stillis will the new styling save GM.

    Your answer: Not if they continue to lose in the gadgetology, technology, areas.

    BTW- If those engineers make so much darn money, then why are there so many opening everywhere $30-40K a yr ? ;)

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I have no idea why there are so many openings at $30-40K where you are. I tried to find an Engineering position that low here in michigan where we are having a terrible economy. Houses are sitting for sale everywhere for over 6 months to a year. But per the classified there seems to be a lot of jobs that are paying over 60k for an engineering degree and over 5 years experience.

    http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobResults.aspx?nvjtl=%5eJN004%24&IP- ath=JRKG&sc_cmp1=js_navg_nvjtl&lr=cbga_ted&excrit=QID%3dA6653202755581%3bst%3dA%- 3buse%3dALL%3brawWords%3dengineer%3bTID%3d144282%3bCTY%3dDETROIT%3bSID%3dMI%3bCI- D%3dUS%3bENR%3dYES%3bDTP%3dDR3%3bYDI%3dYES%3bIND%3dALL%3bPDQ%3dAll%3bJN%3dAll%3b- PAYL%3d0%3bPAYH%3dgt120%3bPOY%3dNO%3bETD%3dJTFT%3bETD%3dJTPT%3bETD%3dJTCT%3bETD%- 3dJTIN%3bRE%3dALL%3bMGT%3dDC%3bSUP%3dDC%3bFRE%3d30%3bCHL%3dAL%3bQS%3dSID_GATED00- 3%3bSS%3dNO%3bTITL%3d0%3bJQT%3dRAD
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Rocky, with all due respect, I personally don't know any "degreed" engineer (CE, EE, or ME) that makes less than $50K per year. And, that includes those who only have a Bachelor's, and have only been in the work force for less than a couple of years.

    My uncle, who retired from GM several years ago, had a "title" of engineer, but was not a degreed engineer. He didn't even have an Associates degree. Perhaps this is where you're getting your lower salary range data. Some companies tend to use the word engineer a bit too loosely in my opinion. Technician would probably be a more appropriate title.

    I can assure you that engineering is one of the highest paid disciplines in this country. Look at the annual reports of recent college grad's starting salaries - the engineering disciplines, most typically chemical engineering, lead all of the other disciplines.

    And, don't downgrade engineers from other countries, or their education or training either. Some of the brightest engineers I've ever worked with were from Asia. For example, ask any of your computer/software engineer friends about the competency of Indian software engineers!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Your link proved my point. Where are all these opening for $100K ? Only If you have 10+ yrs of expierence. College Grads make $35-40K. ;)

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Sounds like you guys know about the inside, so tell me, what is the morale and work situation around the GM head shed? Are there secretaries answering phones for secretaries, and bureaucratic executives standing around the water coolers talking about the Escalade Ludicrous is driving, dodging anybody in authority that may give them an accountable project to work on - having endless meetings that result in analysis paralysis.....OR, do we have a sweatshop of efficiency going on, where staff is deathly afraid of not shining, or somebody will be fired, as in Trump's boardroom? Which is it?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Guys/Gals. Better get signed up to attempt to win the Tiger Woods edition Buick Lucerne CXS. That especially goes for you Lemko. ;)

    http://www.buick.com/

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Is really awesome. This is like a fine wine. :blush:

    They corrected their website so you can actually get some good pics. Check out the Enclave on the Buick link above. Trust me it's worth your time. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Oh yeah tell me what you think (Enclave)?

    BTW- The Tiger edition (Lucerne CXS) has real walnut wood. ;)
    Lemko you found your new ride. :D

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I e-mailed Buick to see if I could play. I probably can't because I'm to closely connected to GM. I would love to see one of you win a copy. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Everytime that I look in the mirror
    All these lines on my face gettin’ clearer
    The past is gone
    It went by like dust to dawn
    Isn’t that the way
    Everybody’s got their dues in life to pay

    I know what nobody knows
    Where it comes and where it goes
    I know it’s everybody’s sin
    You got to lose to know how to win

    Half my life is in books’ written pages
    Live and learn from fools and from sages
    You know it’s true
    All the things come back to you

    Sing with me, sing for the years
    Sing for the laughter, sing for the tears
    Sing with me, if it’s just for today
    Maybe tomorrow the good lord will take you away
    (x2)

    Dream on, dream on
    Dream yourself a dream come true
    Dream on, dream on
    Dream until your dream come true
    Dream on, dream on, dream on...

    Sing with me, sing for the years
    Sing for the laughter and sing for the tears
    Sing with me, if it’s just for today
    Maybe tomorrow the good lord will take you away

    -Buick's official Song :blush:

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    IMO, this Buick's styling (if you can call it that) won't save GM. The HHR will likely do more for it than anything Buick has just put out, which I believe came out of the "Not your Father's Oldsmobile" design team..... And I predict the same reaction for Buick. Toyota has long hoped we would start designing cars to look like Buicks and the Ford 500, because they look as ugly as the Camry, but aren't as good. Then, Toyota comes out with the new Avalon, and wow! Someone over there does know how to style a car!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I guess NV your permitted to be wrong once in a while. Nobody's perfect. :P

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Oldsmobile's, this is not your fathers Oldsmobile was so correct. Truly ironic that they knew the car was not like those of the past, yet what not realized at the time was that father's Oldsmobile's were the last of the best years of Olds. Today the 442 brings good money, and there are many old classic cars, which were your father's Oldsmobile. So yeah, all too true was the saying, if they only knew right they were at the time.

    In an effort to get the younger customer, they make fun of those older than you buying the product, or was this in some way saying their product was old and stodgy, or what??? What the heck did it mean at the time. The hot cars, in rear wheel drive, as in the best Cutlass Supreme cars, which included the 442 and Hurst editions was gone. So what great car replaced them? Mechanics rated the Supreme as a most reliable car. After they went FWD, and tried their hand at new, and ever cheaper cars, Japan makes took over the title of reliable and value packed autos.

    I do see some Lucernes around town, which is unusual being a GM automobile. Mostly SUV domestic and foreign in cars along the California coastline. Looks alright, nothing earth shaking. The 3.8 V6 in this car proves that the Buick owner may indeed not care about the drivetrain at all. Personally, I don't see how the car is that much better than say a Camry, which has a lot more HP for less money. I assume better resale too. But the interior is well done on the Lucerne, as is the outside and pretty clean style. Something that may last over the years - basic and smooth. Headlight look a bit large. But what the heck do I know, as I would buy the Altima anyway.
    -Loren
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Um, those Lucerne's you are seeing around town, belong to Avis......
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    :P

    You are so funny. :lemon:

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    C'mon, rocky! In California? The Import market of the continent? Bunch of new Buicks on Interstate 10 have to be rentals. Be realistic. ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The best Oldsmobiles were the Cutlass Supreme Convertibles (which I proudly owned (95) red w/ white leather.) ;) of the mid 90's and of course the prized Oldsmobile Aurora's of the mid, late, and two-thousands, and it's bank vault cabin. ;)

    The 455 might of been quick, but it's no match for the 4.0 Northstar when it comes to engineering. ;) It's really to bad this car never caught on. I however would love to own a used one and perhaps will be my next ride. :D

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I honestly forgot you live in Cali. So yeah you could be correct. I still have my doubts that most of them are rentals. :P But you live there and I don't. I guess I will have to ask Loren to start looking for rental stickers to keep you honest. :shades:

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I don't live in Cal - I live in Vegas and in Florida, but I'm still convinced. All the Lucernes I've seen in Vegas belong to Avis, I figure the odds are even more in my favor in California.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well look at the potential for rental vehicles. Most people fly to Vegas, not drive thus needing a rental is important. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Has anyone seen dieselone ? :surprise:

    I miss his insights. ;) Hope everything is OK for him.

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    I can speak to the Dayton closings. Four out of 5 plants will close. About 350 jobs left at a suburban city's location. Thousands of jobs gone at the four plants.

    The center city has done little to really bring in other paying jobs so this will indeed be a great blow. The leaders have spent their decades being political in their favors and their efforts given; they are now reaping loss of real jobs. They have lost manufacturing jobs through the years and bragged when they replaced them with McD level jobs at about a 1 for 4 lost ratio. Mead WestVaco just took several hundred jobs out of the center city.

    The near suburbs had a great income producers for property taxes for their schools land earnings taxes for their city operations. That is changing. We'll see how they manage.

    They have even formed a pact to share earnings taxes from the remaining plants among all 5 cities affected-no matter which plants ended up closing and they will share earnings taxes from any replacement plant operations that end up in the buildings. Nice subsidy for a center city Dayton that has done little to help itself through the years other than serve as a social reform test bed for political buddies as people and real jobs leave its area.

    There are GM plants left in the area.

    What goes around comes around.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Yes, being identified primarily as fodder for rental fleets has done wonders for the image of the Taurus, Malibu, Stratus, etc...
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Don't forget the LeSabre, Century, Regal - staples of the Avis stable.

    Yes, Rocky; tourist give the new Buicks a reason to live. :blush: I guess they ARE my father's Oldsmobile.

    Ironically - my father's most ardent car goal, was to own an Oldsmobile. Finally, in 1962, he bought one. An F-85 Cutlass. First car with Air Conditioning & Vinyl seats. Unfortunately, it was the worst car he ever owned, and he hurried back to Ford in 1966.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >The 3.8 V6 in this car proves that the Buick owner may indeed not care about the drivetrain at all.

    For some reason I get the impression you just talk about the 3800 and have never driven a car with one. The Lucerne with a 3800 gets somewhere well enough; most people don't want a car with a high advertised horsepower rating, they want a car that has torque and drives well in normal driving.

    > But the interior is well done on the Lucerne, as is the outside and pretty clean style. Something that may last over the years - basic and smooth. Headlight look a bit large.

    I do gotta agree with you there. Shouldn't be called outstanding-their goal was to blend in with the foreign cars that people have said they should emulate. There's a pleasant look. I often have to look twice when I see one to be sure it's not a Toyota. The headlight large comment probably should be relative compared to the Toyota headlight and taillight look and some foreign cars' headlight's look. I think they're fine.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "their goal was to blend in with the foreign cars that people have said they should emulate. There's a pleasant look. I often have to look twice when I see one to be sure it's not a Toyota. The headlight large comment probably should be relative compared to the Toyota headlight and taillight look and some foreign cars' headlight's look."

    And once again, we see why GM (and Ford, for that matter, but to a lesser degree) are so broken. No longer the leader in anything, GM is now emulating Toyota. Isn't that wonderful. That's leadership. That's why they will not survive. And if Ford didn't lead with the F-150 & Mustang, they'd be just as bad, and would die just as quickly. It's over for Buick, if they don't take some leadership like Cadillac.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    The big headlight look (best shown by the Camry/Solara/ES) is fading. GM usually isn't a styling leader, but theres will shrink in time, too.
  • jrdwyerjrdwyer Member Posts: 168
    The car companies demand lower prices for auto parts. They don't really care where they come from as long as they get them JIT. This would seem to favor some US made auto parts due to inventory and logistic concerns. But if auto production leaves the USA altogether, throw this out the window.

    Do the parts manufacturers have many options? As mentioned, there are many auto parts manufacturers paying $8-$12 per hour throughout the USA and these companies are currently profitable. I have also learned that there are profitable factories within Delphi paying $25 per hour. That is great, the more money people can make in any honest and hardworking manner, the better. I hope Delphi and the UAW reach a middle ground and keep going.

    Auto parts companies also have the aftermarket option. This is currently being challenged by warehouses full of imported aftermarket parts. As one example, non-branded auto tranny filters made in Taiwan and sold by AutoZone (owned by that billionaire investment guy) versus Purolator filters made in the USA and sold by Pep Boys. Both products are $15 retail. I returned the AutoZone part and purchased the Pep Boys product.

    So if auto part companies can sell branded and premium grade (higher quality) aftermarket products to DIY and repair shops, they can logically command a higher premium and make more money and maybe share some of that with the workers.
  • dlim899dlim899 Member Posts: 20
    We all know that Chery and Geely are racing to enter the US market. They are the 2 independent automakers in China that are not a JV with any other manufacturers. Price will be their biggest selling point in the US. Quality might be of a concern but I am sure this will be temporarily. Would the import of Chinese made vehicles create another headache for GM, already struggling trying to compete with the Japanese rivals.

    The Chinese with their determination and their position in the world's economy will definitely play a huge role in the future of the US automotive industry. They are already playing a crucial role in the automotive parts and accessories sector.

    So, would you consider buying a Chinese made car or GM? This kind of comparison was never thought possible 2 years ago.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I had a 3.8 V6 in my Olds. back when. It hasn't bad for the time, except it would decide not to run for no apparent reason. The mass air flow sensor, programmable operation manager, numerous tweaks, then finally a crank case sensor replacement may have solved the problem. For a couple years there, they could not figure it out. Then the windshield had a whistle sound due to a hole in the seal, the paint on the roof top went, the parking brake handle came off, as did the rear view mirror. Then the transmission blew at 62K miles. Let's just say I am familiar with GM and the 3.8. Had more luck with the 3.4 in the Achieva, but the rest of the car needed tweaking or rebuilding. Door all hung a bit off, and thus water leaks, and ....

    The 3.8V6 when running is not a bad engine I suppose. If people want to pay top dollar for a just OK engine in a modern car, then fine by me. But I would expect a large discount.
    -Loren
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >I returned the AutoZone part and purchased the Pep Boys product.

    Advance Auto said their trans filters are Purolators without the name. I wonder if that's true of other products in their stores--they're US made.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Your experience with the 3800 is similar to mine. In town, it was a good torquey engine, but it ran out of wind quickly at high speed. The 4 speed transaxle usually held up pretty well, but had shifts that required chiropractic adjustments afterwards. The last GM car I really liked, was my 88 Olds 88. Kept it forever, drove it infrequently, finally gave it to my daughter, who beat it up terribly - then I gave it to my son who finished it off. It had to be towed about 4 times a year due to all the maladies you mentioned, interestingly enough. Not expensive to fix, but disabling when it failed. To think they are still powering their cars with that antique from 1975, is pretty astounding. Ergo my point - GM leads almost nowhere anymore, other than with Cadillac. Kudos to whoever is behind that. The rest of the company should just turn the lights off and go home.

    The former leader of the industry now, is the ultimate follower, and following way behind.

    I wonder who BMW is trying to emulate these days????? Oddly enough - they don't seem to need to follow anybody, they can come up with ideas on their own. :confuse:
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The 1962 Olds F-85 was a sharp little car. Unfortunately, the V-8 was very troubleprone.

    I've noticed that the LaCrosse seems to be following the sales path of the late, unlamented Olds Intrigue - sales were fair the first year, but now they are already starting to falter.

    With the LaCrosse, the problem is right across the showroom floor. The Lucerne's prices overlap those of the LaCrosse to a fair degree, and the car is roomier and considerably better-looking, too. Not a smart move by GM.
This discussion has been closed.